The North American Union, consisting of the United States, Canada, and Mexico (insert Team 2 background)
Espionage proposal -
Drgong, please slow down a bit. I wrote some story snipped open for discussion, and you had it implemented and warped instantly without anyone having chance to say something. Now you come up with espionage which I said I would make a more detailed proposition.(and have actually been writing on for a while now)
We all live in different time zones here, and if I happened to be asleep in the last 3 hours, I would have missed all this. Give it a bit of time.
The Year is 2100.
The world is dominated by three major powers.
The Russian Confederation (Insert team 1 background),
The North American Union, consisting of the United States, Canada, and Mexico (insert Team 2 background)
The Free State Alliance, (Insert team 0 background).
In addition, if you don't like the proposal just say so. I am not going to get my feelings hurt.It is good in the way that we already get a bell-curve distribution, but there are flaws in:
Cost| | Survey | Military | Government | Science | Sabotage |
1 | Reveal one jump point's general location, or one bodies minerals | Reveal a snippet of general design information about a design of choice (e.g. "Beam/Missile armed", "Long/short range", "Has ECM", "weak armor" etc.) -Secret Project: Especially shield a design against enemy intelligence. Costs for any info rise by one category, and the nation gets informed when a leak still happens. | One of those: -Name all the political and military leaders with their corresponding position -Generalized industrial of last year ("had mostly constructed mines, then some PDC") -Generalized future plans(no obligation to keep them), like "colonize Mars", "expand mining sites or just Earth". Nothing military. - Mess with voting (Votings of next year get a "Ghost-vote" equivalent of one player in random directions. Ghost-votes cannot exceed current maximum votes, so 50:50 order and chaos at max. Suffering nation is aware) | -Current area focus (Logistics, Power, etc.) revealed with hindsight on last years occupation -Misdirection: Leave 5% of research labs pursuing random theoretic technology for next year. | Either: - hinder Earth mining (reduce current stock of a single resource by 20% of years income) - hinder mining delivery (reduce stock of all resources by 20% of an external mining site) - hinder construction (reduce maximum construction by 5%, which are now free; or 10% if either choosing ordnance or fighter production) |
2 | -Reveal direction of survey (which systems survey ships are in or heading to) -Reveal an archeology site or science bonus site (you get informed that there is one once another 2+ point purchase in survey espionage had been made, but have to buy the information then) -Reveal specifics about a science vessel design if not armed | -Reveal number of ground troops on a colony or Earth -Reveal general sets of of ammunition ("2 designs for AMM, 1 ASM, one larger torpedo, 1 buoy/mine"), or reveal specifics of a certain type ("identify one of the AMMs please") -Reveal a single exact number about a chosen ship/PDC design (Speed, one sensor strength, armor strength, range, even crew number) -Tell the location and heading of a fleet currently out of sight (sharpness: "tell system" if in uninhabited one, or "tell body/vicinity to body" in colonized systems) | -Printout of current amounts of mines and factories on a colony -Current population number of a colony, along with growth rate and Administrator skills -Reveal an unknown colony location (information about unknown colony sheer existence is leaked by purchasing 2+ point events in the government section elsewhere) -Receive information about all officers asked for (would ask for whole list, but is difficult to do in Aurora; instead maybe "leading scientists of every area" and "all task group leading fleet officers and the staff officers" | -Exact reading of current research projects -Information about the progress in a sector of technology ("Propulsion stands roughly at TL3" or "has just entered construction TL2") -Inquire about existence of a certain tech ("have they jump gate const. module?") | -as in Intel 1, but steal the resources instead of just hindering. -delay a fleets movement for 1 month (not against fighting fleets; if combat breaks out somewhere and the fleet wishes to join, it is freed of the delay; Also: fleets of greater importance or surveillance may cost much more Intel Points - this would need consultation with Drgong) -precise sensor dodging (detection immunity for either a certain chosen fleet, or against a certain sensor/or colony. Cannot chose fleets entangled in combat. Lasts for sensor field entry to exit, or 1 month per purchase if the fleet doesn't plan to move out) |
4 | -Reveal a complete system survey, minerals+JP -Space Jam: Block a system for (further) survey attempts (block can be relieved by other side paying 2 points later on) | -Gain complete design information about a certain ship. This costs 2 points more if it concerns a ship with much innovation compared to other known designs of that nation (engines, or mostly updated weaponry), and another 2 points more if it is the first ship to ever be analyzed for that faction -Revoke transfer of land troops: Nation cannot transfer troops this year to places where the attacker has ground unit too -False orders: Send a couple ships on a 10b detour, or lock a couple more in task force training. Should conflict break out, they are free to act again. -Mix up officer assignment of a ship. Either random, or a specific officer if he/she is known and not serving as staff. | -Gain a complete screen of a single colony, seeing the whole colony summary window, the production queue, and the stockpiles -Industrial espionage: Receive 5% of their wealth for the next year as "gift" -Budget Cut: Disband a ground battalion (no brigade or division command; can come cheaper with rising amounts of forces) -Maintain surveillance about votes for a year, getting sketchy information whenever votes happen and about what in general, but not the outcome. -Shut down fuel refineries on a colony for a year.(cost 8 when chosen consecutively) | -Learn what technologies of a whole line of research the nation knows so far. (e.g. "laser focal strength") | -Sabotage a random ship and apply damage to it.(warhead techx10??) To pick out a singular ship, the Intel costs move one category up. -Laxatives, bought doctors, bribery: Have a ship go without officer for a year, while having him on board.("not in working condition") |
8 | -Synchronize with that nation's whole galactic survey archive -Take over a freighter-fleet bringing shipments from a ruin planet or alien wrecks (preferably loaded with components), then give it back after unloading in own colony | -Treason and Moles: A chosen ship or PDC(!) does not fire during first eventual engagement next year. -Informant: Know all the nation's ships position if needed.(including camouflaged ones) This is a flash scan, but can be repeated for a year for just another 1 Intel Point every time. -Gain technical information about all weapons of a certain type (e.g. all lasers or all launchers), or all available sensor designs | -Attempt to retire officer or government personnel (another intel check at half chance vs. counter-intel for this to confirm) -Generate 1 player weight of vote in the other nation. Will be randomly assigned unless "surveillance" from tier 4 is also chosen, in which case detailed voting and knowledge about topic is granted. Existing Votes need 1 Intel Points per year to maintain. Maximum amount of bought votes to real ones is 50:50 -Propaganda Campaign: Take over 5% of their population. (?maybe too much?) | -Abduct a chosen scientist to your nation (another intel at half chance check vs. counter-intel for this to confirm) -Gain a chosen technology, excluding racial tech(?) -Shutdown research labs (obviously needs time to boot up again after this) - Reveal information about all their engine designs, or all jump engines. | -Attempt to assassinate officer or government personnel (another intel check at half chance vs. counter-intel for this to confirm) -Hijack ship of choice (another intel check vs. counter-intel for this to confirm) -Destroy 10% of construction factories or mines on inhabited colony, or 20% of either refineries, ordnance or fighter factories. A unmanned mining colony may lose as much mines as the attacker has ordnance factories. |
So, I'm thinking: could we maybe have sub-forums for each team? It would make things easier to organize, and would avoid people misblicking and reading the wrong thread.
On the topic of starting info, I know it might take a bit, but could we get the stats of the Civilian leaders? Also of use would be the Teams/Academy page to see what teams we have enough members to form.
Before I send that info, I assume you would want it to the team vie PM?
Yes, as I suspect I'm not going to be the one directly making use of it.
Just to add quickly to this: Ok with your espionage system, except one detail: Please work in the primary staff's intelligence officer in some way. Attack or defense, bonus or directly, doesn't matter, but let the officer do something. It would be awesome to have staff personal have more concrete functionality, because as of Aurora vanilla now, you'd only really use operations and survey.
(Targeted Espionage Rating +Intel Staff officer + 1d100) - (Counter Espionage rating + (Intel Staff officer x 1.25) + 1d100) = Espionage Score
But... ? How is that not already the case?Nevermind then. I deliberately looked for this critical, but still didn't see it in my hurry.
Optionally, something that works out how additional teams influence the score. There is no reason why either a stronger, or spending wise just more focused empire shouldn't be able to intensify the pressure, so that the results don't just exclusively depend on the random individual officer skill that you get.
I think that with the multiple spy teams will work out.
With the diplomatic teams though there should not be such an absolute value in the win table. If just one win can manage to subtract 1m population of that new tiny Mercury colony they founded, it will be barren instantly, and very unrealistic.
Instead it could be just percentage based, depending on the smaller colony involved, so a tiny Luxembourg cannot suddenly invite 6m new member, but maybe only +2% of their own people count or something, which is to be deducted from the target.(details to be figured out)
Similarly you couldn't drain Luxembourg in just one swoop from outside, but these 2% for example would only reduce them by 10.000 people as of today.
Maybe something comparable with factories.
Oh, that is ok then. I see you actually wrote it in there, so it was my mistake with fly-reading again. Stuff is hectic when you miss one day on the forum suddenly.
New players, check to see if you can see your forums.I'm not quite sure as to where I am supposed to say that I would like to join on the Ruskie's side, so I'm putting it here. Just want to make sure that this name is open Kutzenov Sergetov
Also, hope all is well. As soon as the orders are in I will process the first turn.
New players, check to see if you can see your forums.
Also, hope all is well. As soon as the orders are in I will process the first turn.
I've not been following the thread. So I don't know if any new players have joined or not. Best bet is to have Drgong send me a message and let me know. Or tag me with @Erik Luken in the message (btw, this works for anyone).Don't start without me! I must join the Ruskies
Actually, current team members is 8:9 even with SwordLord, but you are still free to chose any side.That said I would still wish to Join NAU
3Darn it, I was really hoping to be in the first turn, I guess I must wait, unless I misunderstood something(I haven't slept in 2 days)
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Rocket launch! The TN age has started, and Russia is into of space again.
People who couldn't make it:
- SwordLord10
- That's it. (http://hxxp: www. greensmilies. com/smile/smiley_emoticons_seb_zunge. gif)
// Seriously though, even Zook who came late and was very active too, will only officially join after today's first turn, so next week. We will get you a seat. :)
Darn it, I was really hoping to be in the first turn, I guess I must wait, unless I misunderstood something(I haven't slept in 2 days)
You said you would PM each team with screenshots, I have received no such PM, and I have seen in the people speaking like they have seen them. Has turn 1 even run yet? Did you not send the PM's yet, or did you just forget about me?
Well, it was never clear who we were talking to. We discuss foreign policy internally, and the ambassador speak for everyone (he has no real power otherwise though: anything serious will go back to be discussed and voted on by Congress, where we each have a vote with Red Dot being tiebreaker as president).We also counsel about what we want to do. Plans are presented, including for diplomatic course and points on a meeting, and when we agree, then the people you speak with here are actually representing Russia's opinion, yes.
So, are you each representing only yourself, or are you talking in the name of the Russian federation?
I think this is just a misunderstanding that the NAU was not under the impression that this was more in the lines of offical representatives and not just role playing minor figures.Yeah, these figures we have are indeed our outer face. ..And inner too btw. .
Well, it was never clear who we were talking to. We discuss foreign policy internally, and the ambassador speak for everyone (he has no real power otherwise though: anything serious will go back to be discussed and voted on by Congress, where we each have a vote with Red Dot being tiebreaker as president).
So, are you each representing only yourself, or are you talking in the name of the Russian federation?
Wait, I guess since my character is in command of he 7th infantry division, he would be a General, not a Colonel. Also, if it would be possible, I want screenshots of my character's(and future characters') personality traits in game, so I can RP them a bit better.Aren't you in the wrong thread here? ;)
Well, I think I wasn't clear. The feeling we got from Drgong on our side was that half of the russian team was considering giving up the game because of Dark Letter, and that the FSA was acting as it did because Drgong had to save the game from ending on turn nine. That's a large part of the reason we were backpedalling internally even before the FSA's announcement, for metagame reasons.
NAU and RUS will get a free 1,000 point research tech. Just let me know in the orders which tech that costs no more then 1,000 points and it will be instant researched.I can't speak for others, but I am against this. Gifts of this kinds are none if the other team gets it too (plus minus gift), and there is no reason to give it just to one. Also it feels like it weirdly breaks continuity.
Edited post to take out language and not descend quite to that level.Oha, that I didn't know indeed, because I had never used them. So 10k is minimum distance for missiles too, interesting.
You shame only yourself, Pre TN ICBMs, which are the only ones we are talking about defending, take something like fifteen minutes to reach their targets, plenty of time for even a feeble Meson base to shoot down rather a lot of them.
Not really sure I'd pay for that school.Oh, you are just upset now. Well, enough of that from me now.
Also, without active sensors, you cannot target PDC or ground installation.Do you mean that PDC without actives cannot get targeted at all? That might have gone through the tests, though I was quite sure I just built a hangar for the shooting practice.(?)
No, I mean if you don't have active sensors to paint target, ICBM bases can only target population, not enemy PDCs.Oh right, I thought you were addressing the "ground-meson beats all PDC" issue.
I would like to continue the RP on the espionage incident at the meeting before all that smeg happend, as we have prepared a few more answers but I didn't expect the PDC to be finished that soon, and this was why I let the RP in the UN thread open for you to answer. In the mails we exchanged it we talked about having it as a hearing, so if you would like to participate in it and give it a little bit and better flair, feel free to do so. Alternatively I can just write the rest myself, if you prefer that. Or nothing at all.I would like to continue this too. There was some planning behind it with the talking points, and it would be a shame not to be able to play it out.
It will take some time though, as I haven't enough time for that until tuesday.
As you can see, it's very basic, optimised to shoot ICBMs and PDCs. (Fun fact: before trying, I didn't know that PDC without turrets still have a non-zero tracking speed).I meant it as a joke before, but seriously though, I cannot see the design. The picture isn't there for me. Could it be blocked, but I see all the other pictures people post?(..I think)Quote from: VandermeerI see nothing today, as if the design isn't even there. :D (did not realize the downtime kicked me that much out of shape)
As for "What would happen if it launched." I ran the war a number of ways.
I actually ran the war in my "Test" game. Something that is easy enough.
War 1 - Russia Launches standard launch of ICBMS
NAU defeats launch in nine minutes. Russia eliminated from game as mesons eliminate shipyards and ICBM bases.
War 2- Russia Launches "Drgong style" launch of ICBMS
NAU defeats launch in 15 minutes, Russia Eliminated by Meson
War 3 - Russia and FSA launch standard launch of ICBMS
Close, but NAU defeats all launches by the skin of their teeth, FSA and Russia Eliminated
War 4 - Russia and FSA "Drgong style" launch of ICBMS
About 240 ICBMs impact NAU.
War 5 Russia and FSA "drgong style" launch, with the previously undisclosed FSA ICBM+/Ratel Missiles.
X = number of ICBMS+
in 10 seconds, X number of impacts on NAU , taking out shipyards and population. ~240-(X) impact NAU. We all die.
If we get a sufficient number of meson bases, couldn't we use those to take out enemy bases in an alpha strike?Oh, come to think of it, - that has actually never been tested since PDC is not built by NPRs. Normally you cannot use Meson from orbit to surface, so I didn't consider this, but if PDC just get treated as ships by Aurora, it might actually work for the first time.
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So, I have been running a quick test game on this, and sensational news: It does work!
I repeat: We can Alphastrike their missile bases into nothing before Earth's obliteration, because mesons still work on PDC where they always failed when being used on planetary population or ground forces otherwise.
[...], we could probably easily achieve a stage where all their bases may fall in an instant 5-second.(simulations for that may follow) Then we just have to outlive the assault of their ground forces to win. This gives [...] more weight I suppose.
Really good news, a winning possibility without fallout, and I stand corrected with that [...] impeding doomsday scenario [...].
It just dawned on me that this kind of introduces another but much more cheap way to win the game. I am not for it, but just so you know:[...], we could indeed just focus on very cheap meson bases [...], so we get as much of that as possible. Have [...], and after the 10 years truce ends, we could just overrun their capital and take over all their belongings without even having to set a foot in space.
...Not the Aurora way to do things, but that is most positively an even more effective strategy with same-planet-start players now. Just so you know that we also have the moral high-ground by neglecting such dishonorable warfare practice, so if we later beat NAU, we can also say that "we didn't even give it our best shot" too. ;)
For the sake of generating an interesting (and longer lived?) story, I guess we shouldn't go all out on this meson PDC plan. Still, that doesn't stop us from doing the [...], so we still have a fallback plan at least if [...] doesn't go so well.
Yes, I agree. Also I feel that the thing with PDC being able to be targeted was maybe not intended anyway, since they usually don't show up on any player radar, and NPR and spoilers are known to have issues with targeting them too.
Even if not though, it feels cheap.
...So, the thing with mesons is that you cannot ever shoot them from orbit to ground, because the log will show something like "is a precision weapon, and can as such not be targeted on planetary surface" (meaning probably: no collateral)False- you can target PDCs from orbit, just not ground troops or populations since they are so dispersed. This is one of the more noteworthy bonuses for Mesons as a beam weapon - unlike the other beam weapons, they can shoot though atmosphere. (Lasers are useless)
I see no real reason why that condition should change for when they are mounted on ground to begin with, so it is maybe a bug or was overlooked by Steve, which seems likely, because PDC vs PDC is a rare game setting to say the least.It is a very real possibility in a 3 way race to the stars. I would not expect if you launched at someone that they wouldn't have swatting down your missiles would not one by one eliminate your PDCs. PDC->PDC combat can happen when you share a world.
...It could also be that attacking PDCs was actually intended, because they would be more compact and ship-like, but even if it was intentional, from the above argument you can see that it is very unhealthy for any Aurora-feel game, because it restricts warfare to who can rush out their meson turrets fast enough. The mesons destroy shipyards and PDC, so even when you have TN missiles, they would just be the prime weapon in hopes to alphastrike all enemy launch bases away, and completely paralyze all the enemy can do from then. (you can build it secret too, by just building one huge base, so the enemy cannot see it coming. ...Then 5 seconds and over)
Can we give a design to another nation without giving them all the techs leading to that design?
False- you can target PDCs from orbit, just not ground troops or populations since they are so dispersed. This is one of the more noteworthy bonuses for Mesons as a beam weapon - unlike the other beam weapons, they can shoot though atmosphere. (Lasers are useless)The point here is that NPR don't have PDC, so this might have been overlooked, because it sure never happens in any usual game any player would have.
It is a very real possibility in a 3 way race to the stars. I would not expect if you launched at someone that they wouldn't have swatting down your missiles would not one by one eliminate your PDCs. PDC->PDC combat can happen when you share a world.No problem with missile vs. missile PDC, because they have the mutual extinction causing delay, but don't you see how it monopolizes the game when you do the same with beam weapons?
That is why you have 32 missile bases - each of them with 10 launchers. Unless you are using now outdated ICBMs, there is no way that someone can rush enough mesons to take out 32 missile bases in one shot. That would take almost 1,000 mesons. Russia is right now dependent on FSA military goodwill since they have not deployed a single countermeasure. Even a simple Trans-newtonian missile of 2000 km/s with a warhead can make sure that you have MAD.As said, yes, we would not have destroyed NAU at this time, but if we'd known that meson ground attack is perfectly good sports in this game, we would have shifted all investment to that too, as it is perfectly logical to do that with it becoming the sudden most prominent winning factor of PvP Aurora.
or the TL:DR
Mesons can fire on non-defuse targets
This includes PDCs
meson PDCs can fire on other PDCs
Simple Trans-newtonian missles make a meson strike useless as there no way you can build enough Mesons to take out every base, and a TN missile will be detected by sensors as it produces a X-sized nuclear explosion on the target. Even taking out active sensors, they can still be aimed at the populations.
Also, why haven't you said anything when we discussed this before in Russia? I understand you cannot read everything in all those threads of both parties, but this went through some messages at least. We denied Meson buildup because we thought it was immoral or against the game's spirit, and now we stand here, having none, and hearing about glorious righteous winning scenarios because "you fools should have done it too".
Yeah, we would have.
Chillax dude, then end results is that we wasted time designing tech and systems that are of no use because apparently first strikes have been banned now.
Also, why haven't you said anything when we discussed this before in Russia? I understand you cannot read everything in all those threads of both parties, but this went through some messages at least. We denied Meson buildup because we thought it was immoral or against the game's spirit, and now we stand here, having none, and hearing about glorious righteous winning scenarios because "you fools should have done it too".
Yeah, we would have.
As said, yes, we would not have destroyed NAU at this time, but if we'd known that meson ground attack is perfectly good sports in this game, we would have shifted all investment to that too, as it is perfectly logical to do that with it becoming the sudden most prominent winning factor of PvP Aurora.
So with us on that same table, the whole thing would have played out differently, depending mostly whether we actually finished our PDC early, or NAU.
Chillax dude, then end results is that we wasted time designing tech and systems that are of no use because apparently first strikes have been banned now.
Don't worry, since we cannot let you have all the cold war MAD arms race fun by yourselves we are wasting some resources into it too.
What blew up while I was at work?
Just going to react to what Bughunter said in PM, do you guys think it'd be a good idea to ban tech trades? I mean, we all used it, but they're just so powerful since giving a tech doesn't cost anything... On the other hand, they do speed things a bit.
- Set up the non-aligned nations (EU) in game, give them 500M population, no missile bases, no shipyards and say, 15 labs. (or give them the starting 1000 and 10,000 ton shipyards, but still years behind everyone else)
Each year 2% of their total earth population emigrates to one of the three powers.
Emigration is determined by your diplomatic score towards the EU.
Diplomatic score is as follows.
Diplomatic team score + d100 + Bonus.
Bonus is the following
Commercial vessel donated to the EU - Tonnage/1000
Military vessel donated to the EU - Tonnage/100
Research donated - RP/10
This is a general idea that been in my head to improve the diplomatic function which right now is very random. The EU would not be a threat to any of the great powers (Smaller, and way behind tech wise) and its military solely used for defensive reasons. They would only sign treaties that all three major powers sign.
Edit: The "bonus" resets to zero at the start of the year.
Not sure if it is a good idea (especially for my team) but yes I would like to remove FSA tech trades. As Sheb said they are extremely powerful. Also in a normal game of Aurora you don't have that option.
Interesting but I see a problem. If they are only defensive and no threat there is no reason not to always donate all your tech and whatever else you can spare to them. Would they not just become a positive feedback loop for whoever is in the lead?
The EU idea could be nice. Could I also suggest that we see the number of CI each sides gains from propaganda each year? It'd be nice to have some friendly competition for propaganda between side.
You could also just go forgut feelinga complex system that you're not going to explain to us. As long as the advantages aren't game breaking, I don't think people would complain.
You could also just go forgut feelinga complex system that you're not going to explain to us. As long as the advantages aren't game breaking, I don't think people would complain.
I think there was a thread a month or so back about this - my recollection is no, they are stuck as POW's forever. We could just RP the transfer though.
Might not look like much is happening out here on the public board but we are busy on our side of the iron curtain with SwordLord returning to the team recently sparking some activity. How are things in the NAU?
Previous attempts were maybe not great successes always, but if anyone feels like doing some in-character RP or similar we are up for it.