Aurora 4x
C# Aurora => C# Bureau of Design => Topic started by: Froggiest1982 on July 15, 2020, 11:59:14 PM
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As per subject.
I am currently classifying my ships by weight/armor and the role is actually just assigned considering.
So for instance a 5,000t ship is always a Corvette and never either a Frigate or Destroyer.
Or, for example, the difference between a Cruiser and a Heavy cruiser is usually in the tonnage of the weapons and the thickness of the armor.
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Why not both?
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for me it tends to vary depending on the particular campaign. When I use naval type classifications (Corvette, Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser, Battleship) these will normally be based primarily on displacement, although the values may well change over the course of a campaign, eg at startup cruisers may be 10-12 ktons, but later on might well be around 20-25 kTons with any surviving old cruisers be re-designated as frigates or corvettes. Sub classifications might be "Strike" for missile heavy units or "Assault" for ones with an energy bean emphasis.
For other campaigns it might be more role based eg Mauler, Monitor or Speedster in my Lensman themed campaign (although that did use Cruiser, Battleship and SuperDreadnaught classes as well)
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I classify by weight. I have several weight bands that are each for different class. This allows me to field only 1 size of military engines so I can easily make spares with my construction factories and speed up refits to new engine tech and my warships have all same max speed. With bit of practice I can usually build several designs in one shipyard because of that. (In my current game my BC shipyard can build 5 designs). I roleplay quite a bit so I have usually some odd designs like APDs, scout cruisers, survey cruisers and scout carriers (something like original Chiyoda/Chitose).
I also keep my warships relatively small my battleships and battlecruisers are 35000 tons and I plan only dreadnoughts to get bigger - 42000 tons and they will be quite rare.
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weight doesn't make any sense in longer game
it is role that define design
Earth wet navy had the same as last 100 years passed (think of evolution of 20th century 500t destroyers into arleigh burke today )
I had 10kt+ patrol ships and 50kt+ cruisers in mid game but it simply doesn't matter
role is defined by tasks and offensive/defensive capabilities for the job it has to do ( like dealing with late spoilers )
nothing else
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1st off, Aurora has no weight, you mean displacement
2nd off, its completely up to you and really depends on your playstyle
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Both.
Ship class used : destroyer, cruiser, battleship, and carrier (same size as battleship because of shipyard, so you can say capital ship)
Type : SAM (AMM), DCA (turreted beam weapon with), missile, energy, carrier, jump and command ship.
Currently, destroyer are at 6 ktons, cruisers at 10 ktons. In a few year destroyer will be 10 ktons, cruiser 15 ktons, and capital ships 20 ktons.
As you technologically advance, you'll nedd more space for additionnal component, ECM, ECCM, CIC, auxiliary control, more range and maintenance as your empire growth, etc...
The underlying objective is to limit the number of shipyard needed and optimize their use.
Shipyard means workers, minerals, wealth, and so on.
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As others say, both.
I tend to use weight bands (and yes, they generally get adjusted later in the campaign as ships grow), and then sub-classes within a weight band depending on their role - a Strike Cruiser would be in the same weight band as a Heavy Cruiser, but have a faster speed profile and more weapons, while the Heavy Cruiser would have heavier defenses.
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As others say, both.
I tend to use weight bands (and yes, they generally get adjusted later in the campaign as ships grow), and then sub-classes within a weight band depending on their role - a Strike Cruiser would be in the same weight band as a Heavy Cruiser, but have a faster speed profile and more weapons, while the Heavy Cruiser would have heavier defenses.
its displacement band not weight :)
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I tend to group my units roles as such:
- Corvette: At 3,125 Tons these ships tend to fulfill the role of escorts, scouts, survey ships, dedicated fighter killers, gunboats, missile boats and a whole slew of other things. They are defined by their weight with no regard to their role.
- Frigate: The backbone of my navy, they weigh in at 6,250 tons and fulfill most roles. Regardless of their mission profile, armament or anything else, they are always referred to as "Frigates". Even if they are for all intensive purposes a Carrier, the designation is related to their tonnage and therefore a 6,250 Ton Carrier in my Navy is called a Frigate. Frigate is a catchall for my Sub-Capital vessels.
- Heavy Corvette & Heavy Frigate: These special designations are dictated by role and are sometimes referred to as Double Corvettes or Double Frigates. They mass 6,250 tons and 12,500 Tons respectively and possess a rarely used nomenclature.
- Cruiser: A ship designed for independent operation and built to a tonnage not exceeding 12,500 Tons. Typically carries a mixed armament which let's it engage a variety of vessels, as well as a comprehensive sensors suite. Not typically armed with missiles of any sort, it is important to note that I only define a Cruiser as such if it possesses a Jump Drive.
- Light Cruiser: In every way a Cruiser, but lacking a Jump Drive, the Light Cruiser also cannot weigh more the 12,500 Tons and tends to be more specialized. Typically used in the Fire Support or Sensor Support role, and very often armed with missiles. Light Cruisers in my Navy are perhaps best defined as a scaled down Cruiser, and usually retain at least some of their general utility with an eye towards system scale independent actions versus a proper Cruiser's inter-system capabilities.
- Warp Cruiser: A variant of Cruiser that forgoes the general capabilities in favor of a long range Jump Drive with a high Squadron capacity. Typically focuses on higher speed as well, and sacrifices armament. Almost exclusively Beam Armed.
- Destroyer: Similar to the Light Cruiser, but even more specialized. Destroyer's in my Navy are a class of warship designed to excel at destroying much larger foes. Typically lacking in general capabilities even moreso than Light Cruisers, these are typically Beam armed warships with a focus on destroying enemy Capital Ships and Super Capital Ships. They often possess heavier armor and powerful shields as well.
- Carrier: A parasite carrier massing at least 12,500 Tons, but larger versions are permitted without the need to reclassify. "Fleet Carriers" are the un-official nomenclature of Carriers possessing a Jump Drive of their own. Carriers are typically built to accommodate Beam Fighters or Missile Fighters, with the former being described as "Beam Carriers" and the latter as "Strike Carriers"
- Raiding Carrier: A sub group of Carriers which are built around a Cloaking Device and also possess a Jump Drive. They're typically quite slow and more often than not unarmed. They're used specifically for interdiction and boarding operations. They usually mass 12,500 tons, but can vary to as much as 25,000 Tons down to 6,250 Tons depending on the exact mission profile of the ship.
- Super-Capital: Often just scaled up versions of 12,500 Ton "Capital Ships", these ships mass anywhere from as little of 25,000 Tons all the way up to 150,000 ton behemoths and are expressly designed for an offensive war. Battlecruisers are the exception, as they are 25,000 Ton Cruisers focused specifically on being faster, up gunned versions of regular Cruisers and possess the same roles.
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"mass" "weight"
*sigh* these are not actual things in aurora XD
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"mass" "weight"
*sigh* these are not actual things in aurora XD
I did not want to say anything but at the third post...
The displacement or displacement tonnage of a ship is its weight.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_%28ship%29?wprov=sfla1
Although I know what u mean ;) we still in the vacuum of space so virtually the weight is zero
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I classify by weight. I have several weight bands that are each for different class. This allows me to field only 1 size of military engines so I can easily make spares with my construction factories and speed up refits to new engine tech and my warships have all same max speed. With bit of practice I can usually build several designs in one shipyard because of that. (In my current game my BC shipyard can build 5 designs). I roleplay quite a bit so I have usually some odd designs like APDs, scout cruisers, survey cruisers and scout carriers (something like original Chiyoda/Chitose).
I also keep my warships relatively small my battleships and battlecruisers are 35000 tons and I plan only dreadnoughts to get bigger - 42000 tons and they will be quite rare.
This is very similar to what I currently do.
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for me it tends to vary depending on the particular campaign. When I use naval type classifications (Corvette, Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser, Battleship) these will normally be based primarily on displacement, although the values may well change over the course of a campaign, eg at startup cruisers may be 10-12 ktons, but later on might well be around 20-25 kTons with any surviving old cruisers be re-designated as frigates or corvettes. Sub classifications might be "Strike" for missile heavy units or "Assault" for ones with an energy bean emphasis.
For other campaigns it might be more role based eg Mauler, Monitor or Speedster in my Lensman themed campaign (although that did use Cruiser, Battleship and SuperDreadnaught classes as well)
I like this extra classification, I may integrate it in my design template file
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Displacement for the general class, i.e. destroyer, light cruiser, heavy cruiser,... and then role for the specific class, i.e. DE/DD/DDG, CL/CE/CG and so on.
While the displacement a general class "occupies" might change over the course of a game (as in, DDs might be as small as 5000 tons at the start and grow to 10, 15 or even 20k tons later on), it will still determine the general class, so a destroyer will always be smaller than a cruiser which will always be smaller than a battleship.
And I like to double the size from one general class to the next, so if destroyers are 5,000 tons, cruisers will be 10,000 tons and battleships 20,000 tons (I don't use CLs (which are between destroyers and full-blown cruisers) very often, usually only as dedicated CEs).
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From what I know of NPRs: ~7. 5k tons: DD
~15k tons: Cruiser
~25k tons+: Capital (including Battlecruisers)
And they might have a specialization in the class, like "jump cruiser" for a cruiser with a jump drive.
What I use:
10k tons or less: Corvette
10k-20k: Frigate
20k-30k: Destroyer
30k tons+: Cruiser
And I have yet to figure out how big stuff like BBs will be.
And most of them are specialized, eg "Missile Frigate"
Carriers can be any tonnage, and their specialization is based off of size/role, eg a 15k ton Escort Carrier.
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I generally use both. Luckily we have plenty of different designations available so mixing is easy.
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Hello,
I use two systems first I organize my ships by displacement interval:
| Class | Displacement |
| Sub Orbit Support | < 100t |
| Figther | < 500t |
| Small Craft | < 2 000t |
| Corvette | < 3 000t |
| Frigate | < 5 000t |
| Destroyer | < 9 500t |
| Cruiser | < 18 000t |
| Heavy Cruiser | < 25 000 |
| Battlecruiser | < 30 000t |
| Battleship/Carrier | < 50 000t |
After that I use designations assigned to the role of the ship:
[class-name]-L : Command Ship
[class-name]-E : Escort
[class-name]-G : Missile
[class-name]-S : Gun boat
[class-name]-V : Carrier
My logic Hull + Role.
Example:
Knifelover-L (Command Destroyer)
Knifelover-G (Missile Destroyer)
Knifelover-E (Escort Destroyer)
They have all the same displacement but different roles.Normally I can use the same shipyard, except for capital ship variants, that normally fails to be in the same range.
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My ships tend to be classified depending on both role and displacement and it also as other said will depend on where in a campaign I'm at.
An early destroyer might be 8kt while a later one are 16kt. But the role of the destroyer really never change but the size will. Older destroyers that are still around might be displaced to frigate status as they usually have a similar enough role and can be repurposed as such quite easily.
An early carrier at say 25kt might become an escort or light carrier later on when a real fleet carrier have grown to 75kt in size.
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From what I know of NPRs: ~7. 5k tons: DD
~15k tons: Cruiser
~25k tons+: Capital (including Battlecruisers)
And they might have a specialization in the class, like "jump cruiser" for a cruiser with a jump drive.
What I use:
10k tons or less: Corvette
10k-20k: Frigate
20k-30k: Destroyer
30k tons+: Cruiser
And I have yet to figure out how big stuff like BBs will be.
And most of them are specialized, eg "Missile Frigate"
Carriers can be any tonnage, and their specialization is based off of size/role, eg a 15k ton Escort Carrier.
Interesting, looking at this I really believe the NPRs could use a couple of more varieties especially on the lower tonnage part with maybe increasing DD at 10k?
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From what I know of NPRs: ~7. 5k tons: DD
~15k tons: Cruiser
~25k tons+: Capital (including Battlecruisers)
And they might have a specialization in the class, like "jump cruiser" for a cruiser with a jump drive.
What I use:
10k tons or less: Corvette
10k-20k: Frigate
20k-30k: Destroyer
30k tons+: Cruiser
And I have yet to figure out how big stuff like BBs will be.
And most of them are specialized, eg "Missile Frigate"
Carriers can be any tonnage, and their specialization is based off of size/role, eg a 15k ton Escort Carrier.
Interesting, looking at this I really believe the NPRs could use a couple of more varieties especially on the lower tonnage part with maybe increasing DD at 10k?
They do have some more variety in military tonnage but I'll leave that to you to find out.
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My ships tend to be classified depending on both role and displacement and it also as other said will depend on where in a campaign I'm at.
An early destroyer might be 8kt while a later one are 16kt. But the role of the destroyer really never change but the size will. Older destroyers that are still around might be displaced to frigate status as they usually have a similar enough role and can be repurposed as such quite easily.
An early carrier at say 25kt might become an escort or light carrier later on when a real fleet carrier have grown to 75kt in size.
This I understand it can happen later in the game also considering the increasing in capability of both production and shipyards, however I would like to ask for your opinion of what I currently do.
So as you know we cannot expand the displacement capability of the shipyards along with the slipways so we either do one or the other.
I personally set my ship sizes by tonnage displacement (so let's say that a DD will go from 10,000t to 14,500t) and once I reach that tonnage I just increase the slipways.
I get to the point: is it worth to have shipyards keeping increasing tonnage and design bigger ships (as be suggested by few users already) when you could simply increase your output?
For instance when you have your shipyard ready to to get 5 or 6 18k DD I may have already the capability of producing 18 at the time.
For a simple answer let's assume the tech is the same for the both of us and role-play is not in the picture.
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From what I know of NPRs: ~7. 5k tons: DD
~15k tons: Cruiser
~25k tons+: Capital (including Battlecruisers)
And they might have a specialization in the class, like "jump cruiser" for a cruiser with a jump drive.
What I use:
10k tons or less: Corvette
10k-20k: Frigate
20k-30k: Destroyer
30k tons+: Cruiser
And I have yet to figure out how big stuff like BBs will be.
And most of them are specialized, eg "Missile Frigate"
Carriers can be any tonnage, and their specialization is based off of size/role, eg a 15k ton Escort Carrier.
Interesting, looking at this I really believe the NPRs could use a couple of more varieties especially on the lower tonnage part with maybe increasing DD at 10k?
They do have some more variety in military tonnage but I'll leave that to you to find out.
Well I am taking NPRs not Spoiler Races ;)
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This I understand it can happen later in the game also considering the increasing in capability of both production and shipyards, however I would like to ask for your opinion of what I currently do.
So as you know we cannot expand the displacement capability of the shipyards along with the slipways so we either do one or the other.
I personally set my ship sizes by tonnage displacement (so let's say that a DD will go from 10,000t to 14,500t) and once I reach that tonnage I just increase the slipways.
I get to the point: is it worth to have shipyards keeping increasing tonnage and design bigger ships (as be suggested by few users already) when you could simply increase your output?
For instance when you have your shipyard ready to to get 5 or 6 18k DD I may have already the capability of producing 18 at the time.
For a simple answer let's assume the tech is the same for the both of us and role-play is not in the picture.
One concern with building lots of slipways is retooling. You cannot retool while you are building a new slipway; nor (AFAICT) can you partially build a new slipway, retool, then finish the slipway. Since new slipways can take a REALLY long time, I often find myself increasing my production capacity by increasing size rather than adding slipways, simply so I can retool if I need to. But I tend to make lots and lots of versions of very similar ships as tech improvements roll out, so I retool my shipyards more often than strictly optimal.
For example, my last game that got anywhere had Hezrou class light cruisers, flights 1 through 5. Same size, same main battery, but incremental electronic, propulsion, and defensive upgrades. I also had 4 flights of Fate class missile cruisers that I was building at the same time, and my needs for 1 or the other swung wildly so I found myself needing to retool my shipyards from Hezrous to Fates and back again. It would have taken ~2 years to add another slipway, during which time who knows what would happen?
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My ships tend to be classified depending on both role and displacement and it also as other said will depend on where in a campaign I'm at.
An early destroyer might be 8kt while a later one are 16kt. But the role of the destroyer really never change but the size will. Older destroyers that are still around might be displaced to frigate status as they usually have a similar enough role and can be repurposed as such quite easily.
An early carrier at say 25kt might become an escort or light carrier later on when a real fleet carrier have grown to 75kt in size.
This I understand it can happen later in the game also considering the increasing in capability of both production and shipyards, however I would like to ask for your opinion of what I currently do.
So as you know we cannot expand the displacement capability of the shipyards along with the slipways so we either do one or the other.
I personally set my ship sizes by tonnage displacement (so let's say that a DD will go from 10,000t to 14,500t) and once I reach that tonnage I just increase the slipways.
I get to the point: is it worth to have shipyards keeping increasing tonnage and design bigger ships (as be suggested by few users already) when you could simply increase your output?
For instance when you have your shipyard ready to to get 5 or 6 18k DD I may have already the capability of producing 18 at the time.
For a simple answer let's assume the tech is the same for the both of us and role-play is not in the picture.
To be honest I never find production capacity in terms of ship production too much of any concern at all. If I were to continuously building ships in all military shipyards 24/7 I would ruin my economy pretty fast.
This is more a juggling between expanding your mining and factory output in conjunction with production and maintenance of the military fleet and continuous production of commercial logistics fleet and support vessels as well.
If all you was concerned about was producing ships as fast as possible then just stick with 1000t yards and add slipways... but you would ruin your economy very fast that way and don't come cry to me after... ;)
The benefit with larger ships are so many that it is almost always worth the reduction in production capability in the long run. This does not mean that small ships have their place because they do, especially for their strong defensive value of established space or for their high value in specialisation.
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This I understand it can happen later in the game also considering the increasing in capability of both production and shipyards, however I would like to ask for your opinion of what I currently do.
So as you know we cannot expand the displacement capability of the shipyards along with the slipways so we either do one or the other.
I personally set my ship sizes by tonnage displacement (so let's say that a DD will go from 10,000t to 14,500t) and once I reach that tonnage I just increase the slipways.
I get to the point: is it worth to have shipyards keeping increasing tonnage and design bigger ships (as be suggested by few users already) when you could simply increase your output?
For instance when you have your shipyard ready to to get 5 or 6 18k DD I may have already the capability of producing 18 at the time.
For a simple answer let's assume the tech is the same for the both of us and role-play is not in the picture.
One concern with building lots of slipways is retooling. You cannot retool while you are building a new slipway; nor (AFAICT) can you partially build a new slipway, retool, then finish the slipway. Since new slipways can take a REALLY long time, I often find myself increasing my production capacity by increasing size rather than adding slipways, simply so I can retool if I need to. But I tend to make lots and lots of versions of very similar ships as tech improvements roll out, so I retool my shipyards more often than strictly optimal.
For example, my last game that got anywhere had Hezrou class light cruisers, flights 1 through 5. Same size, same main battery, but incremental electronic, propulsion, and defensive upgrades. I also had 4 flights of Fate class missile cruisers that I was building at the same time, and my needs for 1 or the other swung wildly so I found myself needing to retool my shipyards from Hezrous to Fates and back again. It would have taken ~2 years to add another slipway, during which time who knows what would happen?
mmmm interesting point. Probably as I retool only for very specific ships and produce a new class for each new generation I may not be impacted much by that. Add this to the 10% research rate and you can see how much this won't really be a big issue. But I realize this may apply only to me or to the people which share a similar way to play to mine.
My generations are generally determined by the Engine Tech. Missiles are mostly the same sizes so launchers and magazines usually last for very long.
So my Rampant Corvette design (It's a Laser Beam ship) will be pretty much the same till I discover at least Ion engines. I start with Nuclear Pulse tech. When that happens I already have more powerful lasers etc so the Rampant just goes obsolete and I start producing a new class corvette with all the latest designs, while my Independent Corvette Leader design (the eyes of the fleet) gets retooled as soon as new active sensors are available and get obsolete when the new gen is possible.
In a fleet where you have 9 of the Rampant to go with 1 Independent, retooling of 3 or 4 ships out of 50 from time to time it's not a biggie.
For maintenance purpose, every 2 gen, ships goes to scrapyard as I can easily produce 15 or 16 ships in a raw by that point, sometimes even more.
Again this is very simple talks as there is way more to it, such as how many minerals it will cots me and the benefit on the long run; but this is why we have excel installed, right?! ;D
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My ships tend to be classified depending on both role and displacement and it also as other said will depend on where in a campaign I'm at.
An early destroyer might be 8kt while a later one are 16kt. But the role of the destroyer really never change but the size will. Older destroyers that are still around might be displaced to frigate status as they usually have a similar enough role and can be repurposed as such quite easily.
An early carrier at say 25kt might become an escort or light carrier later on when a real fleet carrier have grown to 75kt in size.
This I understand it can happen later in the game also considering the increasing in capability of both production and shipyards, however I would like to ask for your opinion of what I currently do.
So as you know we cannot expand the displacement capability of the shipyards along with the slipways so we either do one or the other.
I personally set my ship sizes by tonnage displacement (so let's say that a DD will go from 10,000t to 14,500t) and once I reach that tonnage I just increase the slipways.
I get to the point: is it worth to have shipyards keeping increasing tonnage and design bigger ships (as be suggested by few users already) when you could simply increase your output?
For instance when you have your shipyard ready to to get 5 or 6 18k DD I may have already the capability of producing 18 at the time.
For a simple answer let's assume the tech is the same for the both of us and role-play is not in the picture.
To be honest I never find production capacity in terms of ship production too much of any concern at all. If I were to continuously building ships in all military shipyards 24/7 I would ruin my economy pretty fast.
This is more a juggling between expanding your mining and factory output in conjunction with production and maintenance of the military fleet and continuous production of commercial logistics fleet and support vessels as well.
If all you was concerned about was producing ships as fast as possible then just stick with 1000t yards and add slipways... but you would ruin your economy very fast that way and don't come cry to me after... ;)
The benefit with larger ships are so many that it is almost always worth the reduction in production capability in the long run. This does not mean that small ships have their place because they do, especially for their strong defensive value of established space or for their high value in specialisation.
If you are can't produce military ships constantly then one of two things are wrong: 1. You have way too many shipyards and slipways 2. (and more likely) your economy isn't very good. I have no troubles making 100k tons of combat ships per anum after year 30.
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If you are can't produce military ships constantly then one of two things are wrong: 1. You have way too many shipyards and slipways 2. (and more likely) your economy isn't very good. I have no troubles making 100k tons of combat ships per anum after year 30.
It will be very difficult to expand the economy as fast as you can expand your military yards. I believe you are not constantly expanding your military yards 24/7 outside retooling?!?
I also play with about 10-15% tech progression (conventional start) and that will usually have a pretty strong implication on this... it is way easier to expand the military capability by expanding few shipyards to the point you can't build ships 24/7. Even if you could I see no reason to do it all the time either. From a strategic point of view it can be quite effective to have a strong production capability that you don't use as military ships will cost maintenance over time and that also cost you resources. If you are not at war you don't need a massive offensive fleet. A ship will generally eat up its own production cost in about 16 years (wasting allot of precious Duranium, Gallicite and Uridium)... if you don't need a ship for 20+ years. As long as you have the components ships can quickly be built. You can also use regular industry to pre-build components but never build the ships if you are not at war... that is far more economic than building ships and not using them for 20 years. But if you need another 20 destroyers you can quickly build them as you have the components for them.
The less resources you spend on the military the more resources you can spend on expanding everything else instead. The problem is that you always need to trade something for something else. There is not one single straight answer that is the right one. How many ships are too many and how many are too little... how can you ever know?!?
As long as you can defend your territory you don't need a massive offensive fleet on stand by all the time, that massive fleet is a huge drain... I mean I can go many decades without war quite often. Some wars are just stalemates or low intensity any way so don't need a huge fleet. Quite often going on the offensive can be way too expensive as you already are exploring and expanding in other places and all effort already goes 100% into that. So even if you did win after a huge expansion of fleets and ground troops you will not be able to take advantage of it as your expansion already is at 100% capacity elsewhere.
Also... the amount of ships you can build after a set time period are not really relevant as that depends on so many factors, starting population, industry and research and survey multiplier and more importantly the actual need for military ships within that time period. I have had games (almost always conventional starts) where it takes 50-60 years just to get out of sol, let alone meet a hostile alien... why would I need to build 100kt ships per year after 20 years, that would be a huge waste of resources and production at that time. I probably could do that it I wanted to, but I rarely want to.
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If you are can't produce military ships constantly then one of two things are wrong: 1. You have way too many shipyards and slipways 2. (and more likely) your economy isn't very good. I have no troubles making 100k tons of combat ships per anum after year 30.
It will be very difficult to expand the economy as fast as you can expand your military yards. I believe you are not constantly expanding your military yards 24/7 outside retooling?!?
I also play with about 10-15% tech progression (conventional start) and that will usually have a pretty strong implication on this... it is way easier to expand the military capability by expanding few shipyards to the point you can't build ships 24/7. Even if you could I see no reason to do it all the time either. From a strategic point of view it can be quite effective to have a strong production capability that you don't use as military ships will cost maintenance over time and that also cost you resources. If you are not at war you don't need a massive offensive fleet. A ship will generally eat up its own production cost in about 16 years... if you don't need a ship for 20+ years. As long as you have the components ships can quickly be built. You can also use regular industry to pre-build components but never build the ships if you are not at war... that is far more economic that building ships and not using them for 10 years. But if you need another 20 destroyers you can quickly build them as you have the components for them.
The less resources you spend on the military the more resources you can spend on expanding everything else instead. The problem is that you always need to trade something for something else. There is not one single straight answer that is the right one. How many ships are too many and how many are too little... how can you ever know?!?
As long as you can defend your territory you don't need a massive offensive fleet on stand by all the time that massive fleet is a huge drain... I mean I can go many decades without war quite often. Some wars are just stalemates or low intensity any way so don't need a huge fleet. Quite often going on the offensive can be way too expensive as you already are exploring and expanding in other places and all effort already goes 100% into that. So even if you did win after a huge expansion of fleets and ground troops you will not be able to take advantage of it as your expansion already is at 100% capacity elsewhere.
Also... the amount of ships you can build after a set time period are not really relevant as that depends on so many factors, starting population, industry and research and survey multiplier and more importantly the actual need for military ships within that time period. I have had games (almost always conventional starts) where it takes 50-60 years just to get out of sol, let alone meet a hostile alien... why would I need to build 100kt ships per year after 20 years, that would be a huge waste of resources and production at that time. I probably could do that it I wanted to, but I rarely want to.
I think it's a waste to have shipyards not making ships (and making components if you want rapid expansion). Otherwise they just sit in orbit not doing anything.
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They sit in orbit occupying workers, who by extension produce Wealth. The Unemployed do not produce wealth as far as I know.
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If you are can't produce military ships constantly then one of two things are wrong: 1. You have way too many shipyards and slipways 2. (and more likely) your economy isn't very good. I have no troubles making 100k tons of combat ships per anum after year 30.
It will be very difficult to expand the economy as fast as you can expand your military yards. I believe you are not constantly expanding your military yards 24/7 outside retooling?!?
I also play with about 10-15% tech progression (conventional start) and that will usually have a pretty strong implication on this... it is way easier to expand the military capability by expanding few shipyards to the point you can't build ships 24/7. Even if you could I see no reason to do it all the time either. From a strategic point of view it can be quite effective to have a strong production capability that you don't use as military ships will cost maintenance over time and that also cost you resources. If you are not at war you don't need a massive offensive fleet. A ship will generally eat up its own production cost in about 16 years... if you don't need a ship for 20+ years. As long as you have the components ships can quickly be built. You can also use regular industry to pre-build components but never build the ships if you are not at war... that is far more economic that building ships and not using them for 10 years. But if you need another 20 destroyers you can quickly build them as you have the components for them.
The less resources you spend on the military the more resources you can spend on expanding everything else instead. The problem is that you always need to trade something for something else. There is not one single straight answer that is the right one. How many ships are too many and how many are too little... how can you ever know?!?
As long as you can defend your territory you don't need a massive offensive fleet on stand by all the time that massive fleet is a huge drain... I mean I can go many decades without war quite often. Some wars are just stalemates or low intensity any way so don't need a huge fleet. Quite often going on the offensive can be way too expensive as you already are exploring and expanding in other places and all effort already goes 100% into that. So even if you did win after a huge expansion of fleets and ground troops you will not be able to take advantage of it as your expansion already is at 100% capacity elsewhere.
Also... the amount of ships you can build after a set time period are not really relevant as that depends on so many factors, starting population, industry and research and survey multiplier and more importantly the actual need for military ships within that time period. I have had games (almost always conventional starts) where it takes 50-60 years just to get out of sol, let alone meet a hostile alien... why would I need to build 100kt ships per year after 20 years, that would be a huge waste of resources and production at that time. I probably could do that it I wanted to, but I rarely want to.
I think it's a waste to have shipyards not making ships (and making components if you want rapid expansion). Otherwise they just sit in orbit not doing anything.
It is even more wasteful to produce ships you don't need as you will have to pay maintenance for them over time. If we are talking about commercial yards I might agree that you want them building stuff as much as possible. There is a balance you need to make between planetary industry and ship production. If you produce ships and you don't have anything for them to do you should stop producing ships for the moment and shift focus on to the industry and finding more mineral sites to mine.
If you drain your mineral resources too fast you need new priorities.
It is perfectly viable to have an over production capability in commercial/military yards and shift them around when you need. If population for some reason is a scarce resource you can always tug the yards to a place where there is no population when not in use and replace commercial with naval as you need them. If population is not of any direct concern then it certainly makes no difference if they are not operational all the time.
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If you are can't produce military ships constantly then one of two things are wrong: 1. You have way too many shipyards and slipways 2. (and more likely) your economy isn't very good. I have no troubles making 100k tons of combat ships per anum after year 30.
It will be very difficult to expand the economy as fast as you can expand your military yards. I believe you are not constantly expanding your military yards 24/7 outside retooling?!?
I also play with about 10-15% tech progression (conventional start) and that will usually have a pretty strong implication on this... it is way easier to expand the military capability by expanding few shipyards to the point you can't build ships 24/7. Even if you could I see no reason to do it all the time either. From a strategic point of view it can be quite effective to have a strong production capability that you don't use as military ships will cost maintenance over time and that also cost you resources. If you are not at war you don't need a massive offensive fleet. A ship will generally eat up its own production cost in about 16 years... if you don't need a ship for 20+ years. As long as you have the components ships can quickly be built. You can also use regular industry to pre-build components but never build the ships if you are not at war... that is far more economic that building ships and not using them for 10 years. But if you need another 20 destroyers you can quickly build them as you have the components for them.
The less resources you spend on the military the more resources you can spend on expanding everything else instead. The problem is that you always need to trade something for something else. There is not one single straight answer that is the right one. How many ships are too many and how many are too little... how can you ever know?!?
As long as you can defend your territory you don't need a massive offensive fleet on stand by all the time that massive fleet is a huge drain... I mean I can go many decades without war quite often. Some wars are just stalemates or low intensity any way so don't need a huge fleet. Quite often going on the offensive can be way too expensive as you already are exploring and expanding in other places and all effort already goes 100% into that. So even if you did win after a huge expansion of fleets and ground troops you will not be able to take advantage of it as your expansion already is at 100% capacity elsewhere.
Also... the amount of ships you can build after a set time period are not really relevant as that depends on so many factors, starting population, industry and research and survey multiplier and more importantly the actual need for military ships within that time period. I have had games (almost always conventional starts) where it takes 50-60 years just to get out of sol, let alone meet a hostile alien... why would I need to build 100kt ships per year after 20 years, that would be a huge waste of resources and production at that time. I probably could do that it I wanted to, but I rarely want to.
I think it's a waste to have shipyards not making ships (and making components if you want rapid expansion). Otherwise they just sit in orbit not doing anything.
It is even more wasteful to produce ships you don't need as you will have to pay maintenance for them over time. If we are talking about commercial yards I might agree that you want them building stuff as much as possible. There is a balance you need to make between planetary industry and ship production. If you produce ships and you don't have anything for them to do you should stop producing ships for the moment and shift focus on to the industry and finding more mineral sites to mine.
If you drain your mineral resources too fast you need new priorities.
It is perfectly viable to have an over production capability in commercial/military yards and shift them around when you need. If population for some reason is a scarce resource you can always tug the yards to a place where there is no population when not in use and replace commercial with naval as you need them. If population is not of any direct concern then it certainly makes no difference if they are not operational all the time.
I think that I am at war a lot more than you are usually.
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I think that I am at war a lot more than you are usually.
Even if I'm at war I night not be wanting to invade and just defend, especially if I have other more fruitful expansion to perform instead. Thereby still not fully using all military production capability for the war effort. I will continue to build survey and other ships rather than warships.
I might be facing a very strong and dangerous enemy and then I need to be more offensive it then is good that I do have more production capability if I need it.
There is nothing black and white about this... you can NEVER know before hand how many ships and resources you will need to spend due to war. But you can usually calculate how much resources you need to expand your industry and colonisation effort. There also is a thing with using too much force on a weak enemy, that is also wasting resources.
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Military expansion is the most rewarding expansion and building more ships furthers this goal.
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Military expansion is the most rewarding expansion and building more ships furthers this goal.
Not if every NPR you meet typically are 2-3 tech levels ahead of you it is not... ;)
Try conventional starts with 10-15% tech progression and 5% survey speeds and you will know.
I think your ideas are a bit simplistic... in Aurora military expansion is not always that easy or even wanted. The amount of resources to invade a decently defended colony can be extremely costly, resources you can spend more wisely elsewhere instead.
It is all about juggling different priorities all the time, there is no black and white... mostly grey.
It also depend on what type of campaign you play.
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Military expansion is the most rewarding expansion and building more ships furthers this goal.
Not if every NPR you meet typically are 2-3 tech levels ahead of you it is not... ;)
Try conventional starts with 10-15% tech progression and 5% survey speeds and you will know.
I think your ideas are a bit simplistic... in Aurora military expansion is not always that easy or even wanted. The amount of resources to invade a decently defended colony can be extremely costly, resources you can spend more wisely elsewhere instead.
It is all about juggling different priorities all the time, there is no black and white... mostly grey.
It also depend on what type of campaign you play.
I think I can agree a lot with the above and with this:
It will be very difficult to expand the economy as fast as you can expand your military yards. I believe you are not constantly expanding your military yards 24/7 outside retooling?!?
I also play with about 10-15% tech progression (conventional start) and that will usually have a pretty strong implication on this... it is way easier to expand the military capability by expanding few shipyards to the point you can't build ships 24/7.
It is a very interesting conversation and I agree with many part of it. You need to have a military because it's just simple as that. Also you cannot have your military to eat up all your budget and resources. Only things I don't agree is this and I break them down:
From a strategic point of view it can be quite effective to have a strong production capability that you don't use as military ships will cost maintenance over time and that also cost you resources. If you are not at war you don't need a massive offensive fleet.
I personally think, also considering the new claim mechanics that your fleet should always have an offensive capability ready for action and also to scare visitors away. Also, please don't forget that even if you can build a ship in no time other thing is to train her crew at an acceptable level to make that fleet actually combat ready.
As long as you can defend your territory you don't need a massive offensive fleet on stand by all the time, that massive fleet is a huge drain... I mean I can go many decades without war quite often. Some wars are just stalemates or low intensity any way so don't need a huge fleet. Quite often going on the offensive can be way too expensive as you already are exploring and expanding in other places and all effort already goes 100% into that. So even if you did win after a huge expansion of fleets and ground troops you will not be able to take advantage of it as your expansion already is at 100% capacity elsewhere.
Half true half not. It may be entirely possible that you are having stalemates or low intensity wars because you are just not ready and probably you don't really want a war in first place. Beware I always prefer an ally than an enemy, but I prepare for both. Obviously going huge it's insane and on that I agree with you a lot. Side note: I always, I mean always build ground units. Number 1: they are cheap but still take time to train. Number 2: you lose an insane amount during invasions and you need even more to "pacify" regions. They always come in handy.
I agree with you on other point here below though. I personally don't start a big military program until I've found proof of alien existence whether it's ruins, wrecks or lives form. The best game I had was when the first proof I had was a non TN race. If I close my eyes I can still hear them screaming when our ships cast shadows on their world.
I have had games (almost always conventional starts) where it takes 50-60 years just to get out of sol, let alone meet a hostile alien... why would I need to build 100kt ships per year after 20 years, that would be a huge waste of resources and production at that time. I probably could do that it I wanted to, but I rarely want to.
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Military expansion is the most rewarding expansion and building more ships furthers this goal.
Not if every NPR you meet typically are 2-3 tech levels ahead of you it is not... ;)
Try conventional starts with 10-15% tech progression and 5% survey speeds and you will know.
I think your ideas are a bit simplistic... in Aurora military expansion is not always that easy or even wanted. The amount of resources to invade a decently defended colony can be extremely costly, resources you can spend more wisely elsewhere instead.
It is all about juggling different priorities all the time, there is no black and white... mostly grey.
It also depend on what type of campaign you play.
I think I can agree a lot with the above and with this:
It will be very difficult to expand the economy as fast as you can expand your military yards. I believe you are not constantly expanding your military yards 24/7 outside retooling?!?
I also play with about 10-15% tech progression (conventional start) and that will usually have a pretty strong implication on this... it is way easier to expand the military capability by expanding few shipyards to the point you can't build ships 24/7.
It is a very interesting conversation and I agree with many part of it. You need to have a military because it's just simple as that. Also you cannot have your military to eat up all your budget and resources. Only things I don't agree is this and I break them down:
From a strategic point of view it can be quite effective to have a strong production capability that you don't use as military ships will cost maintenance over time and that also cost you resources. If you are not at war you don't need a massive offensive fleet.
I personally think, also considering the new claim mechanics that your fleet should always have an offensive capability ready for action and also to scare visitors away. Also, please don't forget that even if you can build a ship in no time other thing is to train her crew at an acceptable level to make that fleet actually combat ready.
As long as you can defend your territory you don't need a massive offensive fleet on stand by all the time, that massive fleet is a huge drain... I mean I can go many decades without war quite often. Some wars are just stalemates or low intensity any way so don't need a huge fleet. Quite often going on the offensive can be way too expensive as you already are exploring and expanding in other places and all effort already goes 100% into that. So even if you did win after a huge expansion of fleets and ground troops you will not be able to take advantage of it as your expansion already is at 100% capacity elsewhere.
Half true half not. It may be entirely possible that you are having stalemates or low intensity wars because you are just not ready and probably you don't really want a war in first place. Beware I always prefer an ally than an enemy, but I prepare for both. Obviously going huge it's insane and on that I agree with you a lot. Side note: I always, I mean always build ground units. Number 1: they are cheap but still take time to train. Number 2: you lose an insane amount during invasions and you need even more to "pacify" regions. They always come in handy.
I agree with you on other point here below though. I personally don't start a big military program until I've found proof of alien existence whether it's ruins, wrecks or lives form. The best game I had was when the first proof I had was a non TN race. If I close my eyes I can still hear them screaming when our ships cast shadows on their world.
I have had games (almost always conventional starts) where it takes 50-60 years just to get out of sol, let alone meet a hostile alien... why would I need to build 100kt ships per year after 20 years, that would be a huge waste of resources and production at that time. I probably could do that it I wanted to, but I rarely want to.
I think we agree in even the things you pointed out. I never meant you should not have ANY offensive ships standing around at any time, especially if you know there are hostile aliens out there that can potentially attack you.
What I meant was that you don't need a huge fleet (and ground forces) that eat up your resources for invading an enemy capital or their colonies standing around all the time when the resources to build them are massive let alone maintain it over time. Especially if your enemies are stronger than you are. It is a whole other matter to keep a manoeuvre force strong enough to attack and raid enemy space in preemptive attacks or to bolster certain part of your space if any hostilities break out.
You have to judge what is a good balance between maintaining fleets and ground forces and how much of your yearly wealth budget goes into ground forces, ship construction or colonial industry and mining efforts and technology advancement. You also need to balance mined resources versus consumed resources in addition to this.
I try to strike a good balance and the more I put into construction of new colonial efforts the faster the economy will grow and the more general military power I can maintain in the end which include both general defences and manoeuvre elements.
It is not entirely uncommon for me to scrap some ships after a bigger confrontation as I simply have more ships than I need for general defence. I might start with older ships but sometimes even newer ones can get scraped too, it depend on the ship type. If you have the components left you can quickly build new ships if you need them for not a huge difference in cost. You have to judge the situation you are in if this is something you want to do or not.
You definitely have to consider the training level of the crew as well. I mostly use level 5 training quality of my military crew so they will start out with a fair amount of crew training to begin with, but still you have to consider this as a whole as part of the decision making.
Ground forces are quite expensive to build as well, especially if you want to constantly "upgrade" them as you develop new technology. So here I do the same as with ships. Build up good defences and some good manoeuvre forces for rapid deployment when needed. I don't sit with huge invasion forces all the time... I think I can use my wealth for better things in the mean time.
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Personally, I go purely by role, and avoid trying to wedge wet-navy classes into a setting where they no longer make sense. So my main fleet combat ships are LN (Line), for example, my battlecarriers are LCV (Line Carrier), etc. I do call my long range patrol ships Cruisers, but that's because they still fit the traditional cruiser role of long range semi-independent operations. It makes for a much easier classification system than trying to wedge it all into corvette/frigate/destroyer/cruiser/battleship by displacement as many seem to do, since that doesn't really fit with how ships are actually used.
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What Kenlon said. Role only for me, especially for two reasons
1) Ships sizes tend to go up longer into the game. I'd rather not have the confusion that different generations of ships would create. My early-ish game 25000 tons "main line" energy ship could have the size of an escort later on. With role classification this is not a problem
2) Who said that certain roles HAVE to be small or large? In the latest game I built an emergency 50000 ton PD gauss escort - tanker ship, almost entirely pre-built by construction factories. What do you propose I call it, escort-very-large-battleship? Size doesn't really matter, it's the role that does. I can also sometimes have very small carriers. Smaller than most "escorts".
Role classification avoid the entirety of these problems.
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By role, no dubt.
Role Rulez! ;D
J.
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In terms of size then I tend to think that if I always deploy 3 escorts at 10kt with any mission I might as well have a 30kt ship instead as that is way more efficient in terms of power, durability and command. The only reason to produce a smaller variant is that I want it to be stealthy and I need to distribute them in more places or have them operate on their own in either patrol or scouting capacity.
That is also why I designate my ship by role first and size second. For me it just are quite common that escorts tend to be smaller than primary mission ships because I often want them to be able to act independently or in smaller groups and spread them out to find an enemy or reconnaissance in force type of strategy. A large powerful escort can generally take care of them selves and at least in my fleet tend to be faster than most mission ships for that very reason. My escort usually need to be faster than the opponents standard main capital ships for that reason.
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Interesting - the ships that I class as closest to 'escort' (ADV - Area Defense Vessels) tend to be some of my larger ones, as they are built to cover non-military vessels most of the time, and thus use the same civilian engines that my freighters do so they can jump with them. And since they're slower, they get more range/deeper magazines/more EW gear/etc, so they end up half-again the size of my Lines of the same generation. I tend to build those around the idea of them stacking well at any fleet size, so they are faster (if shorter ranged), can provide their own PD/AMM coverage, though the Command ships that are my jump tenders/AWACS vessels tend to be much bigger, but only have the same offensive punch as a Line.
(And then there are my multi-hundred kiloton Behemoths, who pretty much exist to make Star Destroyers green with envy.)
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Interesting - the ships that I class as closest to 'escort' (ADV - Area Defense Vessels) tend to be some of my larger ones, as they are built to cover non-military vessels most of the time, and thus use the same civilian engines that my freighters do so they can jump with them. And since they're slower, they get more range/deeper magazines/more EW gear/etc, so they end up half-again the size of my Lines of the same generation. I tend to build those around the idea of them stacking well at any fleet size, so they are faster (if shorter ranged), can provide their own PD/AMM coverage, though the Command ships that are my jump tenders/AWACS vessels tend to be much bigger, but only have the same offensive punch as a Line.
(And then there are my multi-hundred kiloton Behemoths, who pretty much exist to make Star Destroyers green with envy.)
In most of my campaigns escorts for commercial support ships tend to be older (and smaller) destroyer classes re designated to frigates... then I also already have older jump tenders to support them as well. I mainly upgrade the ship weapons/sensors and not the engines to keep it simple and cheap.