Author Topic: Just don't get battles at all...  (Read 1972 times)

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Offline Elvin (OP)

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Just don't get battles at all...
« on: March 18, 2010, 06:23:31 PM »
Okay, I've just spent three game years setting up my fleet and jump gates to try and attack a system with several brilliant colony sites ( and the wreckage of 6 of my survey ships. I want vengeance.) This will be my first game using missiles, as I realised I can't beat the NPR's with beam weapons only, at least not until I can get much better engines.

So I enter the system, engage all the active sensors on all my ships, and move in towards the inner system.

I get a contact, 5 missile-armed ships I met from the prior encounter. Unfortunatley they are at 60mkm from me, but my EM sensors still detect them.

Now here's where I must be missing something big. I open up the individual ship details page, go to my destroyer ( all statistics posted at the bottom), and go to the Combat Settings tab. In there, I manually assigned three of the 5 launchers to have the Wookie missiles, and two of them for the Thunderbolt interceptors. I assign two of my cruisers three launchers to interceptors, and the third to anti-ship missiles.

However, I can't get the Point Defence mode button to stick on any SFC. I assumed it was because I had no sensor contacts with missiles ( I could see their ships on the system map, but I couldn't see them in the SFC). 16 minutes later, I get missile sensor contacts. I go into the fire control, and try to manually fire the missile launchers at the contacts I now have. 5 seconds later, as far as I can tell, no missiles were fired and all of their ones hit me. I lost one ship instantly.


tl;dr, I want a rundown of how the heck i'm supposed to play a battle ( everything to do with it, after having missiles loaded into the ship. That's about as far as I think I understand)

It's also possible my designs just fail, constructive criticism greatly appreciated:

Code: [Select]
Asceticism of Action class Destroyer    6800 tons     617 Crew     836.56 BP      TCS 136  TH 400  EM 0
2941 km/s     Armour 1-31     Shields 0-0     Sensors 8/8/0/0     Damage Control Rating 6     PPV 15
Annual Failure Rate: 61%    IFR: 0.9%    Maint Capacity 1461 MSP    Max Repair 96 MSP    Est Time: 6.53 Years
Magazine 570    

Nuclear Pulse Engine E8 (10)    Power 40    Fuel Use 80%    Signature 40    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres    Range 16.5 billion km   (65 days at full power)

Size 3 Missile Launcher (5)    Missile Size 3    Rate of Fire 25
Missile Fire Control FC0-R1 (1)     Range 864k km    Resolution 1
Missile Fire Control FC28-R100 (1)     Range 28.8m km    Resolution 100
Size 3 Wookie Missile (100)  Speed: 10,000 km/s   End: 21.4m    Range: 12.9m km   WH: 6    Size: 3    TH: 60 / 36 / 18
Size 3 Thunderbolt Interceptor Missile (90)  Speed: 26,700 km/s   End: 0.5m    Range: 0.9m km   WH: 1    Size: 3    TH: 195 / 117 / 58

Active Ship Search Sensor MR9-R100 (1)     GPS 1200     Range 9.6m km    Resolution 100
Active Missile Detection Sensor MR0-R1 (1)     GPS 96     Range 768k km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH1-8 (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  8m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-8 (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  8m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes

Code: [Select]
Fingers of Dawn class Cruiser    4300 tons     314 Crew     609.44 BP      TCS 86  TH 120  EM 0
1395 km/s     Armour 4-23     Shields 0-0     Sensors 8/8/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 9
Annual Failure Rate: 147%    IFR: 2.1%    Maint Capacity 1089 MSP    Max Repair 96 MSP    Est Time: 3.42 Years
Magazine 379    

Nuclear Pulse Engine E8 (3)    Power 40    Fuel Use 80%    Signature 40    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres    Range 26.2 billion km   (217 days at full power)

Size 3 Missile Launcher (3)    Missile Size 3    Rate of Fire 25
Missile Fire Control FC28-R100 (1)     Range 28.8m km    Resolution 100
Missile Fire Control FC0-R1 (1)     Range 864k km    Resolution 1
Size 3 Wookie Missile (60)  Speed: 10,000 km/s   End: 21.4m    Range: 12.9m km   WH: 6    Size: 3    TH: 60 / 36 / 18
Size 3 Thunderbolt Interceptor Missile (66)  Speed: 26,700 km/s   End: 0.5m    Range: 0.9m km   WH: 1    Size: 3    TH: 195 / 117 / 58

Active Search Sensor MR25-R100 (1)     GPS 3200     Range 25.6m km    Resolution 100
Active Missile Detection Sensor MR0-R1 (1)     GPS 96     Range 768k km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH1-8 (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  8m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-8 (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  8m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes
 

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Just don't get battles at all...
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2010, 05:48:02 AM »
To orchestrate a battle, you should use the "Battle Control Window" (F8)

[attachment=1:3084cb7v]battle-control.JPG[/attachment:3084cb7v]

[attachment=0:3084cb7v]battle-control-2.JPG[/attachment:3084cb7v]



Aside from populations, only active contacts will show in the Contact window (lower left)

Edit: I forgot to mention, that you don´t have to do this for every single ship. After you have finished the first ship, hit the "Copy TG", "Copy System" or "Copy Race" button (upper right) and every ship of that class in the same TG, system or all of them everywhere will have it´s weapons/FCs/missiles similarly assigned.
You can do the same for target allocation.
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline waresky

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Re: Just don't get battles at all...
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2010, 07:02:08 AM »
Am fear the trouble was on SINGLE Launcher tube-type r onboard of our Mate's ships.
Probably the Aurora's program faulkt something..

Mate,we have experience on ANTI-MISSILE MIssile doctrine so we put Launcher-1 class onboard or,a DEDICATED Escort ships..OR a Warships togheter to others different Class of Launcher for ATTACK purpouse.

My Cruiser now r fitted with 4 Class-1 launchers AND 4 (or more) Class-2/3/4 size Missile..
And all gone as well.
Attack made good..defend same..

Probably here need someone can explain better than me on english,ur personnel trouble.

See ya into Space.
 

Offline Elvin (OP)

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Re: Just don't get battles at all...
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2010, 11:19:47 AM »
Quote from: "Hawkeye"
To orchestrate a battle, you should use the "Battle Control Window" (F8)


Aside from populations, only active contacts will show in the Contact window (lower left)

Edit: I forgot to mention, that you don´t have to do this for every single ship. After you have finished the first ship, hit the "Copy TG", "Copy System" or "Copy Race" button (upper right) and every ship of that class in the same TG, system or all of them everywhere will have it´s weapons/FCs/missiles similarly assigned.
You can do the same for target allocation.

Thanks, that helps a lot. I also found out that my missiles only have half the range of theirs- 60mkm against 28. Time for a re-design.
 

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Just don't get battles at all...
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2010, 11:27:36 AM »
I´ll give it a try :)

You have posted two destroyer designs, that are basicly the same. Not in mass or speed but in role. They seem to be designed to be Jack of all trade kind of ships, which IMO should actually read "Jack of all trade, master of none".
For smaller ships (at least up tp 10.000t) it is much more efficient to have dedicated attack and escort ships. Look through the designs in the "Bureau of Shipdesign" forum.

Code: [Select]
Decius II class Missile Destroyer 7500 tons     787 Crew     1196.48 BP      TCS 150  TH 425.25  EM 0
3780 km/s     Armour 3-34     Shields 0-0     Sensors 22/11/0/0     Damage Control 5     PPV 32
Annual Failure Rate: 76%    IFR: 1.1%    Maintenance Capacity 499 MSP
Magazine 418  

Avernum Sollum Class 63/75 Ion Engine (9)    Power 63    Fuel Use 77%    Armour 0    Exp 7%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 77.9 billion km   (238 days at full power)

Onager Class ASM Launcher (8)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 40
Opius Verena Class 50/16 MFC (1)     Range 50.7m km    Resolution 16
Opius Verena Class 95/60 MFC (1)     Range 95.0m km    Resolution 60
Lancea III ASM-4 (104)  Speed: 35,200 km/s   End: 32m    Range: 67.5m km   WH: 5    Size: 4    TH: 187 / 112 / 56

Senecca Inc. Class 22 Thermal Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Signature 1000: 22m km
Oculus 53/75 (1)     GPS 4800     Range 53m km     Resolution 75
Cunilingus Inc. Type 11 EM Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Strength 1000: 11m km

ECCM-1 (1)         ECM 10


Code: [Select]
Cingulum II class Destroyer Escort 7500 tons     697 Crew     1348 BP      TCS 150  TH 425.25  EM 0
3780 km/s     Armour 4-34     Shields 0-0     Sensors 22/11/0/0     Damage Control 7     PPV 25
Annual Failure Rate: 50%    IFR: 0.7%    Maintenance Capacity 786 MSP
Magazine 201  

Avernum Sollum Class 63/75 Ion Engine (9)    Power 63    Fuel Use 77%    Armour 0    Exp 7%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 77.9 billion km   (238 days at full power)

Twin 100mm/L46/R5 Meson Hasta Turret (2x2)    Range 45,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 4.5    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Destinatum 32/16 (2)    Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
Marsallas Industries Class 4.5 GCF Reactor (3)     Total Power Output 13.5     Armour 0    Exp 5%

Scorpio Class AMM Launcher (5)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Opius Verena Class 2.1/1 MFC (1)     Range 2.1m km    Resolution 1
Glans III AMM-1 (201)  Speed: 40,000 km/s   End: 2.5m    Range: 6m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 466 / 280 / 140

Senecca Inc. Class 22 Thermal Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Signature 1000: 22m km
Oculus 1.7/1 (1)     GPS 160     Range 2m km     Resolution 1
Oculus 53/75 (1)     GPS 4800     Range 53m km     Resolution 75
Cunilingus Inc. Type 11 EM Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Strength 1000: 11m km

ECM 10

Those are two of mine. They allready use Ion-engines and the missiles are a new developement using Magneto-Plasma-Drives, but the design philosophy hasn´t changed from the first version
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline Shadow

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Re: Just don't get battles at all...
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2010, 10:34:15 AM »
Question about non-missile point-defense. The Max PD Range for Final Defensive Fire mode should be set to the weapons' range if it's lower than their associated fire control's, right? I lost an expensive SWACS vessel yesterday because the escort destroyers' gauss turrets (range: 30,000 km) engaged the Precursor salvos at 33,600 km. They naturally missed due to being out of range, even if their projected accuracy would've been 88% otherwise. The Max PD Range was set to the FC's: 128,000 km.
 

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Just don't get battles at all...
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2010, 10:39:21 AM »
I never play around with the PD range for final defensive fire. With that setting, any missile should be engaged automaticaly at 10.000km and in my experience, it does. I was under the impression the PD range setting would only come into play with area defense.
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline Shadow

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Re: Just don't get battles at all...
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2010, 10:44:23 AM »
Quote from: "Hawkeye"
I never play around with the PD range for final defensive fire. With that setting, any missile should be engaged automaticaly at 10.000km and in my experience, it does. I was under the impression the PD range setting would only come into play with area defense.
My own experience contradicts that. It worries me: if those turrets are always going to engage Precursor missiles outside their own range, then something's wrong. Very wrong. :?
 

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Just don't get battles at all...
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2010, 10:54:23 AM »
Well, all I can say is: The above Cingulum II DE has been in combat with NPRs. Its turrets have PD-range set at 6.4 (max FC-range is the default and I never fiddle with the default settings) and it _has_ been shooting down leakers at 10.000km.
Note that the Mesons only have a 45.000km range
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline Shadow

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Re: Just don't get battles at all...
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2010, 10:59:40 AM »
Quote from: "Hawkeye"
Well, all I can say is: The above Cingulum II DE has been in combat with NPRs. Its turrets have PD-range set at 6.4 (max FC-range is the default and I never fiddle with the default settings) and it _has_ been shooting down leakers at 10.000km.
Note that the Mesons only have a 45.000km range
Perhaps that has something to do with the fact the gap between your weapon and FC ranges (45,000 and 64,000 km) is much smaller than mine (30,000 and 128,000 km), so the chance of a missile being engaged in it is therefore much slimmer.

Steeeeeve! :P
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Just don't get battles at all...
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2010, 12:04:44 PM »
You should probably design your PD Fire controls with shorter range ;)
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Just don't get battles at all...
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2010, 12:16:32 PM »
Quote from: "Hawkeye"
I never play around with the PD range for final defensive fire. With that setting, any missile should be engaged automaticaly at 10.000km and in my experience, it does. I was under the impression the PD range setting would only come into play with area defense.

Not exactly.  For 'final defense(self)' your escentually correct.  For 'final defense' range comes into play when determining whether friendly ships are about to be hit that within the range defined umbrella.  If I recall correctly the range between ships is used for the to-hit calculation.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Shadow

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Re: Just don't get battles at all...
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2010, 12:30:52 PM »
Quote from: "UnLimiTeD"
You should probably design your PD Fire controls with shorter range ;)
A shorter-ranged weapon enjoys better accuracy if coupled with a longer-ranged fire control, since the former uses the latter's closest range bands.

Here's the design of the destroyer in question:

Code: [Select]
Porcupine class Escort Destroyer    10000 tons     761 Crew     1967.4 BP      TCS 200  TH 400  EM 750
4000 km/s     Armour 5-41     Shields 25-375     Sensors 16/16/0/0     Damage Control Rating 12     PPV 93
Annual Failure Rate: 66%    IFR: 0.9%    Maint Capacity 1475 MSP    Max Repair 179 MSP    Est Time: 4.47 Years

IntCon Fusion Drive E7-M (8)    Power 100    Fuel Use 70%    Signature 50    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 77.1 billion km   (223 days at full power)
Delta R375/20 Shields (10)   Total Fuel Cost  200 Litres per day

Quad R3-100 Gauss Turret (3x12)    Range 30,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S08 64-16000 (1)    Max Range: 128,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 37 30 22

Orion ALS R616 (1)     GPS 56     Range 616k km    Resolution 1
AEGIS-III Sensor Suite A-20-60 (1)     GPS 2520     Range 20.2m km    Resolution 60
AEGIS-III Sensor Suite T-2-16 (1)     Sensitivity 16     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  16m km
AEGIS-III Sensor Suite E-2-16 (1)     Sensitivity 16     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  16m km

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes

Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
Quote from: "Hawkeye"
I never play around with the PD range for final defensive fire. With that setting, any missile should be engaged automaticaly at 10.000km and in my experience, it does. I was under the impression the PD range setting would only come into play with area defense.

Not exactly.  For 'final defense(self)' your escentually correct.  For 'final defense' range comes into play when determining whether friendly ships are about to be hit that within the range defined umbrella.  If I recall correctly the range between ships is used for the to-hit calculation.
Yes. In my case, I was (and still am) using the standard final defensive fire mode, not the CIWS-like 'self' variant. The four destroyers had to protect the SWACS vessel, 10,000 km behind them. I don't believe that small distance was part of the problem, since the warships were between the SWACS and the incoming salvo.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Just don't get battles at all...
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2010, 02:07:38 PM »
Quote from: "Shadow"
Quote from: "UnLimiTeD"
You should probably design your PD Fire controls with shorter range ;)
A shorter-ranged weapon enjoys better accuracy if coupled with a longer-ranged fire control, since the former uses the latter's closest range bands.

Here's the design of the destroyer in question:

Code: [Select]
Porcupine class Escort Destroyer    10000 tons     761 Crew     1967.4 BP      TCS 200  TH 400  EM 750
4000 km/s     Armour 5-41     Shields 25-375     Sensors 16/16/0/0     Damage Control Rating 12     PPV 93
Annual Failure Rate: 66%    IFR: 0.9%    Maint Capacity 1475 MSP    Max Repair 179 MSP    Est Time: 4.47 Years

IntCon Fusion Drive E7-M (8)    Power 100    Fuel Use 70%    Signature 50    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 77.1 billion km   (223 days at full power)
Delta R375/20 Shields (10)   Total Fuel Cost  200 Litres per day

Quad R3-100 Gauss Turret (3x12)    Range 30,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S08 64-16000 (1)    Max Range: 128,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 37 30 22

Orion ALS R616 (1)     GPS 56     Range 616k km    Resolution 1
AEGIS-III Sensor Suite A-20-60 (1)     GPS 2520     Range 20.2m km    Resolution 60
AEGIS-III Sensor Suite T-2-16 (1)     Sensitivity 16     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  16m km
AEGIS-III Sensor Suite E-2-16 (1)     Sensitivity 16     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  16m km

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes

Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
Quote from: "Hawkeye"
I never play around with the PD range for final defensive fire. With that setting, any missile should be engaged automaticaly at 10.000km and in my experience, it does. I was under the impression the PD range setting would only come into play with area defense.

Not exactly.  For 'final defense(self)' your escentually correct.  For 'final defense' range comes into play when determining whether friendly ships are about to be hit that within the range defined umbrella.  If I recall correctly the range between ships is used for the to-hit calculation.
Yes. In my case, I was (and still am) using the standard final defensive fire mode, not the CIWS-like 'self' variant. The four destroyers had to protect the SWACS vessel, 10,000 km behind them. I don't believe that small distance was part of the problem, since the warships were between the SWACS and the incoming salvo.

In that case keep your DE's co-located with the ship to be escorted and set range to 1 and final defense mode.  Any seperation will delute the ability to intercept missiles.  

Personally, I'd remove all but the res 1 active sensor.  Presuming that the "SWACS" is your fleet scout and the additional sensor suites are redundent.  Add 2 more fire controls so that each turret may be independently fired.  It also triples the number of salvos your DE can engage.


Minor point for clarification.  Point defense final defense mode isn't CIWS-like.  CIWS in it current configuration is a  (triple?) Gauss Cannon Turret with on mount cutdown fire control limited to final defense(self) mode and on mount res 1 active sensor.  It's Steve response to my desire for smaller more capabale gauss connons for point defense turrets and fighter guns.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Shadow

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Re: Just don't get battles at all...
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2010, 02:49:22 PM »
When I said final defense fire self mode was CIWS-like, I meant that the ship only engages salvos aimed at herself, and does so in the last possible moment.

As for SWACS, yes, it's a term I use to flavourfully define fleet sensor ships. Means Spaceborne Warning And Control System, and it's derived from its somewhat current airborne application, AWACS. AEW&C might be a more modern term, but it doesn't have the charm of its predecessor. :P