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Posted by: serger
« on: August 16, 2022, 10:03:16 AM »

Can anyone clarify if DIM_GroundComponentType:Vehicle is still functional or if it's just a version artifact?
The strange detail is that "Super-Heavy Anti-Vehicle" and "Super-Heavy Bombardment" weapons have this field set at 0.

UPD. Understood. It's "Medium Vehicle" really, not just general vehicle.
Posted by: misanthropope
« on: November 04, 2021, 01:40:23 PM »

to the extent there is a known-in-advance recipe for defending forces, a hard optimum already exists and players can and will optimize their force exactly as much as their conscience and knowledge of the game permit.

almost everywhere you look in aurora there are options available that are suboptimal but players will take them anyway because they're fun or whatever.  i feel that's kind of the ethos of aurora game design, and it seems sort of unfair to judge a ground combat mechanic by the infinitely more stringent metric of its effect on optimal gameplay.

that said, an aurora as she stands preferential targeting is IMHO a non-starter because of the hideous lethality of anti-tank guns against tanks.  it isn't that preferential targeting pushes in the wrong direction- though it does- it's that it pushes way, way too hard.

if, for instance, infantry and armor required different resources to produce, then you have a situation where a tactical inferiority of a mixed force at a given force total is offset by the ability to deploy more total force through combined arms.  in my non-professional opinion this has much more relevance to the so-called real world than any wishful nonsense about the effectiveness of combined arms.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: November 04, 2021, 01:22:26 PM »

Personally I maintain that the best solution is to rebalance GSP requirement for multi-shot weapons, particularly CAP/HCAP and artillery. The problem right now is that if a CAP fires ineffectually at a tank, only 0.6 GSP are consumed, while if a MAV fires at an infantry 1.6 GSP are consumed, so anti-vehicle weapons are sub-optimal in terms of supply usage and are optimally used as a second-wave once CAP has been used to mow down most enemy infantry. If the GSP consumption is rebalanced to be more similar this should solve or at least mitigate much of the issue in practice.

Yes... this is the main issue with the current rules... that is why I think that instead if preferential targeting we could get a system where units don't waste shots if they are total overkill or there are very little chance to do damage. This would make the GSP consumption more in line with what it should be and we would not feel forced to game the system if we want to be more optimal by holding back forces or build units with only specialized weapon system. Vehicles with different weapon systems does not really make much sense outside role play with the current mechanics.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: November 03, 2021, 04:35:39 PM »

--- Firstly, quick fire off; RECON is what gives you Preferential Targeting. CONCEALMENT reduces RECON, but not below 0. No RECON means no preferential targeting at all, and no malus from CONCEALMENT since it has nothing to conceal from. The idea of RECON being used is that in order to have a preferred target the units must know what is coming before it gets there. Otherwise, the current model is sufficiently granular to assume that the randomness we have now is units picking targets at the point of engagement versus being prepared ahead of time for said engagement.

This is what I argue is a problem, yes. With no corresponding malus, a Recon stat causes the same problem as any degree of preferential targeting, which is that a specific type of force composition (single-base class) becomes strictly optimal and any other force composition (combined arms) becomes strictly sub-optimal. For its flaws, random targeting allows any type of force composition to be viable - both uniform infantry/armor brigades and combined arms brigades are equivalent which is best for roleplay.

Quote
--- Next, my argument on the effects of preferential targeting:

  -  Enemy is Combined Arms: 7/1 ratio of INF and Medium Vehicle with MED Armor, MAV and CAP

  -  Your Forces are Combined Arms: Same as Enemy.

 --- Results: With 100% preferential targeting it's a wash, assuming tech parity and a few other things for simplicity.

  -  Enemy is same Combined Arms, your forces are pure Med Vehicles instead.

 --- Results: With 100% Preferential Targeting you wipe the enemy but take 50% casualties.

  -  Enemy is same Combined arms, but your pure INF.

 --- Results: With 100% preferential targeting you lose everything, but the enemy takes 50% casualties.

This doesn't make any sense as an argument. If you compare cases with and without preferential targeting you will find that in every case, there is an optimal force composition which consists of a single base class of units - whether INF, VEH, or otherwise, the optimal composition may vary but it is never going to be a combined arms formation. This is true whether the preferential targeting effect is 1% or 100%, and making it conditional on a recon stat will not change this either. Only in the case of purely random targeting are combined arms equally as viable as single-base type formations.
Posted by: xenoscepter
« on: November 03, 2021, 04:10:17 PM »

There are two problems with this approach:

First, any approach which only provides a positive preferential targeting effect, even if it is small, renders a combined-arms formation almost strictly inferior mechanically to a single-class formation (all-INF, all-VEH, etc.). While the random targeting we have now does have its flaws, it succeeds at keeping combined-arms and single-class formations equally viable which supports player roleplay...this is I would argue a very important function of the current ground combat mechanics and should be at the forefront of any mechanical changes.

Second, the way to counteract the above would be to make Concealment cause a negative targeting malus, i.e., if your Recon is not enough to overcome enemy Concealment your forces are more likely to shoot at the "wrong" target. I think such a counter-mechanic would be frustrating to players (ground units are already very complicated, why add yet another confusing mechanic to think about?) and doesn't really solve any balance problems.
The problem is that if your opponent has, for sake of example, an even mix of CAP and MAV, and you send a mixed force of 50% INF and 50% VEH for example, then:
  • With purely random targeting every enemy weapon has a proportionally even chance of hitting either type of unit. The CAP and MAV are about equally effective (aside from GSP usage).
  • With even a small targeting bonus, say +10%, suddenly the CAP is hitting your INF 55% of the time and the MAV is hitting your VEH 55% of the time, so the enemy killing efficiency is 110% compared to the random case.
Now consider if you send a force of 100% VEH (similar arguments will apply for INF):
  • With purely random targeting, the CAP has nearly zero efficiency and the MAV has about 100% efficiency, which is roughly the same on balance as the mixed formation case.
  • However, with preferential targeting...nothing changes. The enemy remains at the same efficiency - which means they are not getting +10% kill rates because of your mixed formation.
I am simplifying considerably, but the essence of the argument holds, and the choice of whether to use all-INF or all-VEH formations depends on the ratio of weapons the enemy is using and the relative kill rates against the units you are deploying - for example, MAV kills one tank per shot which is 62 tons, while CAP kills 6 infantry per shot which may be 30 tons (6x PW) or 72+ tons (6x CAP, LAV, etc.). However, with even a small preferential targeting choice effect, combined formations become strictly sub-optimal, which is not really in the spirit of Aurora and blemished what is honestly a 98% well-balanced ground forces system even if there are some flaws (MAV/HAV supply consumption) and some players wish it were different (e.g., more/more-accurate logistics modeling).

 --- Firstly, quick fire off; RECON is what gives you Preferential Targeting. CONCEALMENT reduces RECON, but not below 0. No RECON means no preferential targeting at all, and no malus from CONCEALMENT since it has nothing to conceal from. The idea of RECON being used is that in order to have a preferred target the units must know what is coming before it gets there. Otherwise, the current model is sufficiently granular to assume that the randomness we have now is units picking targets at the point of engagement versus being prepared ahead of time for said engagement.

 --- Next, my argument on the effects of preferential targeting:

  -  Enemy is Combined Arms: 7/1 ratio of INF and Medium Vehicle with MED Armor, MAV and CAP

  -  Your Forces are Combined Arms: Same as Enemy.

 --- Results: With 100% preferential targeting it's a wash, assuming tech parity and a few other things for simplicity.

  -  Enemy is same Combined Arms, your forces are pure Med Vehicles instead.

 --- Results: With 100% Preferential Targeting you wipe the enemy but take 50% casualties.

  -  Enemy is same Combined arms, but your pure INF.

 --- Results: With 100% preferential targeting you lose everything, but the enemy takes 50% casualties.

If AA is too powerful so be it; I haven't that much experience with GSFs so I'll defer here.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: November 03, 2021, 12:54:24 PM »

--- Having preferential targeting based on a RECON value would be interesting. Terrain modifiers and Unit Terrain Modifiers could be used to provide a CONCEALMENT, which would also be affected by Fortification level, so Engineering Units could affect it as well. Thus a new ground unit would provide RECON to counter the enemy CONCEALMENT and therefore provide more or less Preferential Targeting. Thus the chance is not only dynamic, but reliant on your formations AND your enemies formations AS WELL AS the Terrain AND Unit Terrain Training.

There are two problems with this approach:

First, any approach which only provides a positive preferential targeting effect, even if it is small, renders a combined-arms formation almost strictly inferior mechanically to a single-class formation (all-INF, all-VEH, etc.). While the random targeting we have now does have its flaws, it succeeds at keeping combined-arms and single-class formations equally viable which supports player roleplay...this is I would argue a very important function of the current ground combat mechanics and should be at the forefront of any mechanical changes.

Second, the way to counteract the above would be to make Concealment cause a negative targeting malus, i.e., if your Recon is not enough to overcome enemy Concealment your forces are more likely to shoot at the "wrong" target. I think such a counter-mechanic would be frustrating to players (ground units are already very complicated, why add yet another confusing mechanic to think about?) and doesn't really solve any balance problems.

Quote
--- Overall this would avoid some of the issues with preferential targeting. Likewise, having RECON based Fighter Pods would be useful to allow FFD Units to provide additional passive RECON. Allowing Ground Support Fighters attached to an FFD to provide RECON passively when on CAS would be helpful in this regard, alongside a dedicated RECON mission. This would likewise make CAP missions more useful against enemy RECON. The RECON mission could specifically lower the CONCEALMENT bonus derived from Fortification, making AA Units that much more useful to prevent degradation of this bonus.

It cannot be stressed enough that AA units really, really, really do not need to be made even more useful than they already are. Right now even a realistically small quantity of AA units absolutely dominates ground support fighters, let alone the masses of MAA that NPRs like to field.

It is also worth noting that since the NPRs cannot even use regular fighters right now, let alone ground support fighters, this is effectively giving the player yet another advantage as the NPR has no recourse to fighters to overcome player Concealment, while players could easily do so if AA was not so overtuned. While I'm not opposed to adding mechanics for the benefit of players even if NPRs cannot handle them, such mechanics need to provide considerably more benefit for gameplay/roleplay and I do not think adding more complication to ground units accomplishes this.

-

Personally I maintain that the best solution is to rebalance GSP requirement for multi-shot weapons, particularly CAP/HCAP and artillery. The problem right now is that if a CAP fires ineffectually at a tank, only 0.6 GSP are consumed, while if a MAV fires at an infantry 1.6 GSP are consumed, so anti-vehicle weapons are sub-optimal in terms of supply usage and are optimally used as a second-wave once CAP has been used to mow down most enemy infantry. If the GSP consumption is rebalanced to be more similar this should solve or at least mitigate much of the issue in practice.
Posted by: xenoscepter
« on: November 03, 2021, 12:24:30 PM »

 --- Having preferential targeting based on a RECON value would be interesting. Terrain modifiers and Unit Terrain Modifiers could be used to provide a CONCEALMENT, which would also be affected by Fortification level, so Engineering Units could affect it as well. Thus a new ground unit would provide RECON to counter the enemy CONCEALMENT and therefore provide more or less Preferential Targeting. Thus the chance is not only dynamic, but reliant on your formations AND your enemies formations AS WELL AS the Terrain AND Unit Terrain Training.

 --- Overall this would avoid some of the issues with preferential targeting. Likewise, having RECON based Fighter Pods would be useful to allow FFD Units to provide additional passive RECON. Allowing Ground Support Fighters attached to an FFD to provide RECON passively when on CAS would be helpful in this regard, alongside a dedicated RECON mission. This would likewise make CAP missions more useful against enemy RECON. The RECON mission could specifically lower the CONCEALMENT bonus derived from Fortification, making AA Units that much more useful to prevent degradation of this bonus.
Posted by: IanD
« on: November 03, 2021, 08:11:38 AM »

Late to the party again! I get the very strong impression the supply requirements are all based on present day or historical scenarios.

Theory is all very well. But how does it play out in Aurora? I find currently that one unit of supply for infantry lasts a very long time for a brigade of 4 infantry battalions plus an HQ unit of some 10,000 tons each. One unit of vehicle supply runs out after about 5-7 days for a similar sized vehicle formation.

Aurora is a Science Fiction game and all the models you are talking about are all based on, at best today's resupply problems. Are these really appropriate as even now the US is toying with vehicle lasers. We cannot tell how they will develop.

I favour Bolo type vehicles (see Keith Laumer books)  with nothing lighter than super heavy vehicles for combat, moving to heavier vehicles as I research them. Now, my mental image is of large vehicles powered by a fusion reactor and using energy weapons for offence and both shields and armour for defence and a crew of 1-3, if not AI. Such vehicles would not need fuel or ammunition. Yes, they would need repair but they are very survivable not invulnerable even at the ultra-heavy class but if I lose more than half a dozen its an exception.

However, I cannot chose energy weapons over ballistic weapons. I cannot chose what I would regard as supply light option. I would accept a supply light option using energy weapons perhaps with a new tech for vehicle weapons or an additional line for existing energy weapons which also give a reduction in supply requirements.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: October 31, 2021, 06:26:42 AM »

I think that target preference would work if combined arms formation at the same time would diminish its effect or even could reverse the effect and make them shoot at the wrong stuff instead.

This would encourage more realistic formations instead of that being just for role-play.

But in and of itself then target prioritization would not work as a single mechanic.
Posted by: Blogaugis
« on: October 31, 2021, 04:16:15 AM »

If there will be a target preference mechanic, then I propose to give a counter-mechanic to this: Combined Arms Bonus. If you have a formation made up of, say, 10-90 % infantry and 90-10% vehicles/static, the units in formation get a +1-10 % to hit bonus. Maybe more, or less.
Of course it is a bit redundant, as it is a mechanic to counter another mechanic, but here is the basic idea. Inspiration taken from Hearts of Iron 3 army division composition mechanics.
If we take purely HOI3 approach, then CAB should be influenced by the equipment that your formation has: if it is pure infantry, with personal weapons - no bonus. AA/AT weapons added to the mix? +5%. Artillery as well? +5 -> +10%. You have light vehicles/ligth static? +5 -> +15%. Medium vehicles/medium static(or static with heavier armor) as well? +5 -> +20%. You even include Air support? Good boy/girl/TN-era-lifeform, here's a +25% to hit bonus for all your units!
Combat engineers are kinda not in game yet, so their bonus will not apply... Though they probably should.

The remaining nuance is - should it be based on the formation, or all units present in the combat?
If it is on formation - Air support falls out of the equation (unless we play with those fire directors, or make air support as a separate +5 bonus, or other means), giving the player emphasis on building healthy composition of formations.
If it is on all units in combat - then it is less micromanagement intensive, meaning that formations can be made up of pure-infantry; pure-vehicles and so on.

Thoughts?
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: October 29, 2021, 11:48:09 PM »

This sounds good on the surface, but if you do the analysis it comes out that even a small targeting modifier makes a combined arms strategy strictly inferior, as a single-type strategy becomes optimal to waste the most possible enemy shots on a poor target.

I'm not seeing this. If you go, say, full infantry, you can counter it with full CAP heavy vehicles, so you'd add some anti-vehicle capacities to your army, perhaps in the sense of vehicles or static armed with HAV, so then you need a counter for that, and so on. Could you mathematically show the effects of this? I'm not good at this sort of thing.

The problem is that if your opponent has, for sake of example, an even mix of CAP and MAV, and you send a mixed force of 50% INF and 50% VEH for example, then:
  • With purely random targeting every enemy weapon has a proportionally even chance of hitting either type of unit. The CAP and MAV are about equally effective (aside from GSP usage).
  • With even a small targeting bonus, say +10%, suddenly the CAP is hitting your INF 55% of the time and the MAV is hitting your VEH 55% of the time, so the enemy killing efficiency is 110% compared to the random case.
Now consider if you send a force of 100% VEH (similar arguments will apply for INF):
  • With purely random targeting, the CAP has nearly zero efficiency and the MAV has about 100% efficiency, which is roughly the same on balance as the mixed formation case.
  • However, with preferential targeting...nothing changes. The enemy remains at the same efficiency - which means they are not getting +10% kill rates because of your mixed formation.
I am simplifying considerably, but the essence of the argument holds, and the choice of whether to use all-INF or all-VEH formations depends on the ratio of weapons the enemy is using and the relative kill rates against the units you are deploying - for example, MAV kills one tank per shot which is 62 tons, while CAP kills 6 infantry per shot which may be 30 tons (6x PW) or 72+ tons (6x CAP, LAV, etc.). However, with even a small preferential targeting choice effect, combined formations become strictly sub-optimal, which is not really in the spirit of Aurora and blemished what is honestly a 98% well-balanced ground forces system even if there are some flaws (MAV/HAV supply consumption) and some players wish it were different (e.g., more/more-accurate logistics modeling).
Posted by: Ektor
« on: October 29, 2021, 10:51:18 PM »

This sounds good on the surface, but if you do the analysis it comes out that even a small targeting modifier makes a combined arms strategy strictly inferior, as a single-type strategy becomes optimal to waste the most possible enemy shots on a poor target.

I'm not seeing this. If you go, say, full infantry, you can counter it with full CAP heavy vehicles, so you'd add some anti-vehicle capacities to your army, perhaps in the sense of vehicles or static armed with HAV, so then you need a counter for that, and so on. Could you mathematically show the effects of this? I'm not good at this sort of thing.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: October 29, 2021, 10:36:28 PM »

I think weapon prioritisation should be a weighted random roll that's set automatically per weapon type, rather than something you set or something either player or AI can choose, as to level the field because players will always pick better.

Say CAP, it doesn't have to be staggering, just a 1.1 or 1.2 modifier to weight to chose an infantry type, 1.05 for light type, and say 0.95 for heavy and so. These weights need to be small as not to unbalance the combat as in to inutilise combined arms, but it's VERY frustrating to have AV weapons wasting their shots on infantry, and although on combat you will often have very non-optimal situations, there should be a general tendency of, at least "anti-" type weapons to focus on their counter.

This sounds good on the surface, but if you do the analysis it comes out that even a small targeting modifier makes a combined arms strategy strictly inferior, as a single-type strategy becomes optimal to waste the most possible enemy shots on a poor target.

Somewhere else I had proposed allowing a heavier weapon to hold its fire against a lighter target, which would prevent the issues of preferential targeting but reduce the supply consumption of MAV/HAV/etc. targeting infantry without unbalancing combat.
Posted by: Ektor
« on: October 29, 2021, 10:03:11 PM »

I think weapon prioritisation should be a weighted random roll that's set automatically per weapon type, rather than something you set or something either player or AI can choose, as to level the field because players will always pick better.

Say CAP, it doesn't have to be staggering, just a 1.1 or 1.2 modifier to weight to chose an infantry type, 1.05 for light type, and say 0.95 for heavy and so. These weights need to be small as not to unbalance the combat as in to inutilise combined arms, but it's VERY frustrating to have AV weapons wasting their shots on infantry, and although on combat you will often have very non-optimal situations, there should be a general tendency of, at least "anti-" type weapons to focus on their counter.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: October 29, 2021, 12:25:51 PM »

Yes... the game is basically basing supply cost for units in combat with the armour penetration and damage of the weapons... but that is the ONLY metric by which we can base the supply cost as there are no other values to base them off in the game mechanic. There are only hit and damage mechanics to go on so not much else you can do.

I think that is where the confusion is.

I also mentioned that comparing rate of fire and weight of ammunition is rather inaccurate as you don't take opportunity into effect if you do this with vastly different weapon systems and platforms. A mobile platform would be more likely to fire their weapons than a static unit for example even if they mount the same weapon systems. Aurora don't model this in any way. You then have fire control and sensor system that vastly may increase or decrease the use of ammunition. The more accurate the system or the faster you locate the enemy the less ammunition you will need to use in any engagement as well. It is not all about the gun.

This is why I will defend the position that supplies is just what it says it is... supplies... and not ammunition, it is an abstraction. Otherwise we should just come out and call it ammunition and not supplies.