Noob spec questions

[vonduus (OP)]

When I have designed a missile, the spec sheet mentions a specifications that I do not understand. In this example:

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Size 1 Missile Launcher (12)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 15
Missile Fire Control FC10-R1 (3)     Range 10.1m km    Resolution 1
Size 1 AMM (108)  Speed: 28,000 km/s   End: 5.7m    Range: 9.5m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 121 / 72 / 36
what does End:5.7m mean?

And a related question: When designing the missile I was informed it had a range of 19m km. After researching, building and loading it into the system, it only shows a range of 9.5m km/s. Why is the range suddenly halved?

[Erik L]

Endurance. It will fly for 5.7 minutes.

Your range is probably chopped due to your fire control.

[tryrar]

Also, that is a pretty long-ranged AMM. Spoilers don't tend to have amm ranges past 3m! Not saying that it's wrong to have a long ranged amm, mind you, but as Erik mentioned, you're not getting anywhere near max range from your MFCs. With res one fire controls, there are three ranges at the bottom for size 4-6-8 missiles that you might not have noticed. Try matching at least the size 8 missile range to your amm range(if you want to keep that range; personally, I go for shorter ranged amms)

[metalax]

It's 6-8-12 not 4-6-8, The smallest size that anything will be detected at is missile size 6 even if the actual missile is smaller. Building your res 1 missile sensor to pick up size 6 missiles at 2-3 million km means it can also double for detecting anything else at 20-30 million km's possibly saving you the need to carry a seperate sensor for larger targets.

[vonduus (OP)]

Also, that is a pretty long-ranged AMM. Spoilers don't tend to have amm ranges past 3m! Not saying that it's wrong to have a long ranged amm, mind you, but as Erik mentioned, you're not getting anywhere near max range from your MFCs. With res one fire controls, there are three ranges at the bottom for size 4-6-8 missiles that you might not have noticed. Try matching at least the size 8 missile range to your amm range(if you want to keep that range; personally, I go for shorter ranged amms)

Yes, I am new to rocket science, and I don't have much combat experience in this game. 10 m km seems like a big range, but when you check it out on the map, it is frighteningly small.

How do you figure out what is the optimum range?

This is actually two questions, one on doctrine, and one on the technicalities. What is the optimum range for shooting down incoming missiles? In Harpoon, if the enemy sent a wave of long-range missiles your way, it was a good tactic to shoot them down with whatever you got nearby, if only it was equipped with air-to-air weaponry, whatever the range. Missiles form Vladivostok to London was taken out over Denmark at the latest, iirc. What is wrong with this tactic now in this game? Okay, as I am a newbie I am prepared to follow your doctrinal advice to see where it takes me, but please enlighten me.

So if short range is best, how do I compute the optimum distance? From what you all are writing, I take it it is the spot where I have just got time left for firing exactly one volley before being hit. Ie. it depends on the velocity of both his and of my missile. I know both of these figures, at least I know how fast his missiles flew last time I met him. (Also, if I am in a game where I haven't met him yet, I can use my own stats in the hope that he is not too advanced compared to me).

Is there a formula for this?

It's 6-8-12 not 4-6-8, The smallest size that anything will be detected at is missile size 6 even if the actual missile is smaller. Building your res 1 missile sensor to pick up size 6 missiles at 2-3 million km means it can also double for detecting anything else at 20-30 million km's possibly saving you the need to carry a seperate sensor for larger targets.

I cannot get my brain around this one. Does it mean that my fire control can begin to see a size 1 missile at the same range as it could a size 6 missile? That all sizes gets detected at that range?

I get it that a short-range resolution-1 sensor/FC can see bigger targets farther away. Which is nice. 

But what does those three figures for size 6-8-12 tell me about optimum range? When designing AMM FCs, it seems we can use the size-6 figures and ignore the others, even ignore the "overall" missile range (the one that is printed in the finished weapons' spec sheet)?

And then there is the question of overhead, enemy AMMs are always closing, so we will need some extra range in our fire controls to compensate for the distance that the enemy missiles travel in the time period from when we detect them to when we hit them. How much is this adding to our optimum FC range?

I found the formula for computing agility values in blue emu's thread, but so far I haven't seen any formulas on this problem. Not that I care too much about having formulas for everything, but I find they are a great help in formulating broad rules of thumb.

Your range is probably chopped due to your fire control.

I made an adjustment to the missile before creating it, and forgot to take a note on what I did. My bad.

[nafaho7]

I cannot get my brain around this one. Does it mean that my fire control can begin to see a size 1 missile at the same range as it could a size 6 missile? That all sizes gets detected at that range?

Precisely.  Mr. Walmsley allplied a floor function to the dection rules for objects, specifically, all objects are treated as being at least the size of a size 6 missile, even if they are smaller.  All objects lager than a size 6 missile are treated as whatever size they happen to be.

I get it that a short-range resolution-1 sensor/FC can see bigger targets farther away. Which is nice. 

This is not quite the case.  The numbers for detection are a touch complicated.  Recall that all sensor resolutions are reported in terms of Hull Sections.  All missile sizes are reported in terms of Missile Size Points.  For reference, 1 Hull Section converts to 20 Missile Size Points.
Now, when using an active sensor of a given resolution, the game rules are such that the sensor will detect objects of the given size, or larger, at whatever range the design screen reports to you.  However, there is no bonus for dectecting larger objects with a small resolution sensor.  A resolution 1 sensor will detect anything with 1, or more, hull sections at some range, but all objects larger than 1 hull section will still be detected at the same range as objects which are only 1 hull section in size.
This, of course, begs the question of "Why do we use sensors with small resolutions?"  The answer is that, while sensors can detect things smaller than their given resolution, they suffer massive penalties to do so.  Something involving square roots of the theoretical range of your active sensor, as applied to objects smaller than the design is optimized for.  The penalties are not quite as bad when the object is only slightly below the given sensor resolution in size, which is why people use resolution 1 sensors for missile detection.

But what does those three figures for size 6-8-12 tell me about optimum range? When designing AMM FCs, it seems we can use the size-6 figures and ignore the others, even ignore the "overall" missile range (the one that is printed in the finished weapons' spec sheet)?

You are quite right, you can err on the side of pessimism when designing your Fire Controls, and assume that all targets are size 6.  The other numbers are provided as a reference, so that those who feel the need can see just how quickly their Fire Controls lose range when confronted with small targets, and , conversely, how quickly they gain range when provided with larger targets.  This is particularly important if you are setting up a Fire Control design to focus on long range drones carrying submunitions, as these are, by necessity, generally much larger than a size 6 missile.

Personally, I just over compensate with a size 50 resolution 1 sensor.  It makes my fleet set-up rather simple.  My giant sensor boat gets some absurd sensors and a flag bridge, as well as any jump engines, and the rest of my 20,000+ ton vessels get loads and loads of beam weapons.  But that is a matter of personal taste.

[vonduus (OP)]

Thanks nafaho7.

When you say there is no bonus for detecting larger objects with a small resolution sensor, does that mean that larger objects are not detected at longer ranges? For example, if my res-1 sensor has a range of 10m km, then it cannot see anything at all beyond that range, no matter its size?

As opposed to low res sensors; my low-res high-range sensor is able to spot size-1 targets, but not before they are a lot closer than max range? If this is correct, how far away will a res-100 sensor be able to spot a size-1 target?

I will rephrase my questions into examples:

If I designed a sensor like yours, in my version with my technology level it would have a range of 84m km, res 1. Can it see anything at all beyond 84m km?

My current res-55 long range sensor has a max range of 113m km. At what range will it detect size-1 targets? If at all?



 

[Erik L]

Thanks nafaho7.

When you say there is no bonus for detecting larger objects with a small resolution sensor, does that mean that larger objects are not detected at longer ranges? For example, if my res-1 sensor has a range of 10m km, then it cannot see anything at all beyond that range, no matter its size?

As opposed to low res sensors; my low-res high-range sensor is able to spot size-1 targets, but not before they are a lot closer than max range? If this is correct, how far away will a res-100 sensor be able to spot a size-1 target?

I will rephrase my questions into examples:

If I designed a sensor like yours, in my version with my technology level it would have a range of 84m km, res 1. Can it see anything at all beyond 84m km?

My current res-55 long range sensor has a max range of 113m km. At what range will it detect size-1 targets? If at all?

With sensors, I believe the max range is the max range. If it is resolution 55, then smaller items will be detected at shorter ranges.

I'm sure someone has done the math

[Hawkeye]

If target smaller than sensor resolution:

Range x ((Target size) / (Resolution))^2


The above were the rules in 4.9.1. They were a bit nerved in a later installment, but not by much.

So, let´s have a look at your sensors.

1) You are correct, your res-1, range 84mkm sensor will not detect anything further out, as 84mkm is the maximum range of it, no matter what.

2) Your res-55 sensor has a max range of 113 mkm. Putting this into the formula above gives us

113mkm x (1/(55x55) or 113mkm / 3025 which equals a whooping 0.037 mkm or just 37.000 km.

Yes, large res sensors suck for detecting missiles

As I said, the rules have changed a bit, but the above formula is still prette close to what is in and it is easy to get a feel for it.
The target is half the size of your resolution? You can detect it out to 1/4 maximum range
The target is one quarter the size of your res? You see it at 1/16th range and so on.

[Charlie Beeler]

If the question is at what range a res55 sensor with a max range of 113m km would detect a size 1 missile the range is 4,317km.  The modifier forumula has minimum calc at .33hs.  This is intended to represent size 6 and smaller missiles. 

[Erik L]

If the question is at what range a res55 sensor with a max range of 113m km would detect a size 1 missile the range is 4,317km.  The modifier forumula has minimum calc at .33hs.  This is intended to represent size 6 and smaller missiles. 

Which is pretty frakking blind for AM work. Hi-res scanners should be only for anti-shipping. I tend to create a scanner rated for whatever range I need based on the ship sizes I field.

This follows under the reasoning that I use for my AMM. They need to be decisive against my own offense, because until I encounter someone else, that's all I know about.

[vonduus (OP)]

Hawkeye, thanks for the formula, this is just what I need, and Charlie Beeler, thanks for the correction, together your two posts finally made me understand this complex issue, at least so much that I now have an idea of what I am doing and why.

Erik, when I look at your designs on the wiki (thanks for those btw, I have used them for "reverse-engineering" to get the specs of the individual components involved in your design), your AMM missiles has a range of typically around 20m km, but your missile FC range is consistently 1.4m km.

I can understand the extra range if it was an ASM designed to be able to chase a fleeing ship, but this is an AAM, so it's targets will always be incoming. I have seen this range discrepancy in other designs as well, so I take it it is not a mistake. But why haven't you matched their respective ranges to be closer to each other? Or do you plan to have some monster sensor on one of your other ships?

[Erik L]

Erik, when I look at your designs on the wiki (thanks for those btw, I have used them for "reverse-engineering" to get the specs of the individual components involved in your design), your AMM missiles has a range of typically around 20m km, but your missile FC range is consistently 1.4m km.

I can understand the extra range if it was an ASM designed to be able to chase a fleeing ship, but this is an AAM, so it's targets will always be incoming. I have seen this range discrepancy in other designs as well, so I take it it is not a mistake. But why haven't you matched their respective ranges to be closer to each other? Or do you plan to have some monster sensor on one of your other ships?

Those designed are from 5.4-ish era, and I honestly don't recall why they were designed that way.

[vonduus (OP)]

Those designed are from 5.4-ish era, and I honestly don't recall why they were designed that way.

How would you design the different ranges in an AMM suite today?

[Erik L]

How would you design the different ranges in an AMM suite today?

Well, I've not had much time to play around with 6.x, so I can't really answer that question fully now. If I get some free time (after hitting at least 25k words for NaNoWriMo), I'll look into it and see what I come up with.

In all honesty, it might have been an oversight on my part on the wiki ships. Not that I've ever done anything silly like forgetting to load missiles on my ships or anything like that.