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Posted by: Krags47
« on: April 15, 2020, 09:56:37 PM »

Quote from: Icekiller link=topic=10721. msg123561#msg123561 date=1586989540

The real world does in fact have designated TO&E's for everything.   Not everything adheres to those numbers, but there is an intended size and composition for every military formation. 



This is literally what i was doing.  Making my TO&E's but instead of just writing it all down on paper or with google sheets or something i was using the game lol

Posted by: Droll
« on: April 15, 2020, 06:43:31 PM »

While that is doable, I agree that a 'update to template' button would be very useful. Why make this harder then need be?

*shrug*  Why make all your units the same?  Certainly the real world doesn't work that way.

I like that after fifteen to twenty years my Militia Battalions have varying numbers of soldiers, and some of my premiere Divisions have extra regiments and/or battalions.

Creating that situation was exactly my intention. In the future I might have some option to use a one-off template to build reinforcements, but I won't be tying formations to fixed templates.

As its relevant here I'm going to copy paste a very long suggestion I made in the suggestions thread:
At one point it proposes a compromise - formations aren't really fixed to a template but the player can themselves choose to set a target template which allows the formation to kind of behave as if it was based off of a fixed template while also allowing you to modify/reinforce it.
Edit: As I read more into Steve's replies i'm starting to believe that this might not be what he is looking for.

I've been thinking about the whole ground unit replenishment thing and I think I have some ideas.

This has been suggested before but I want to parrot it since it will become relevant later. Ground unit construction can be made to behave exactly like how industrial construction with factories work. Each ground unit facility would add to an annual construction rate based on the tech that already exists and would go through a queue. If a player wants to build units in parallel they can use construction %modifier like with factories.

So the main issue that Steve has already said that he wants to implement is formation auto replenishment. I would suggest that the player can decide to specify a "target" template based on what has been designed that each formation tries to adhere to. So if the player wants to replenish/modify an existing formation all they'd need to do is press a button and the necessary GU construction would begin.
There are two main cases to consider that I can think of:
1 - The target template will have units that are not in the formation we are modifying
2 - The modified formation will have units that are no longer supposed to be in the formation as they are not in the target template

Suggested solution for 1:
So as said at the top if GU construction is handled like with factories then this can be solved by creating a temporary template comprising of the additional units that are needed and adding it as a construction order. This is more convenient with this new GU construction because we do not have to consider there not being available GU training facilities - we just add the new order to the queue.

Suggested solution for 2:
a - Similar to solution for 1 but instead we generate a new "surplus" formation with all the unnecessary units in it. This would facilitate not only auto-replenishment but also allow a player to modify an already built template. It would probably be easier to handle if this is done the moment the player presses the "set to template" button or something - that way the game doesn't have to track any construction orders.
b - This is much more involved. You could make it so that every planet has 2 "theaters" - "Active combatants" and "reserves". The active combatant is just what we have right now, all the formations organized according to the OOB. The reserve theater acts as one massive undeletable formation, regardless it is all the spare loose units on that planet just organized into a pile by unit class. In order to solve problem 2 you would simply move the "surplus" units in the formation that are no longer needed into the reserve formation.

Solution 2b is probably a bit unnecessarily complex for the problem as it opens a whole new can of worms but it has interesting possibilities, some balance considerations that pop into my head:
1 - How do reserves behave when there's combat?
2 - How do reserves interact with orbital bombardment?
3 - Can reserves reinforce active combat formations during combat to replace casualties?
4 - How do reserves interact with transports?
5 - Can I create templates without ground facilities by pushing reserves to the active front?
And most certainly issues that I cant think of

For 1 I would suggest that reserves do not perform attacks on their own. As for their target-ability by enemy ground forces the best I can think of is to either make the reserves a rear-echelon only formation or create a new reserve line that is even further behind the rear-echelon position. Maybe make it so that only long-range arty and Air-attacks can target them but I do not think it would be a good idea to make them only target-able if there are not active combatants.
For 2 I would recommend that Planetary and naval bombardment should impart casualties to reserves but their probability to be targeted should probably be weighted so that active troops are more likely to get bombed. Orbital bombardment support should maybe be restricted to active combatants or simply more biased to targeting active combatants relative to the other bombardment options.
1 and 2 could probably both be solved if you regard reserves as completely irrelevant for the combat itself. You can have it so that if a template has not seen any combat for X amount of time (X would be up to Steve but it could be a production increment for example) it is allowed to draw from reserves.

For 3 as mentioned earlier each formation can have assigned a target template that it tries to adhere to - during combat a unit might receive reinforcements from the reserve based on multiple factors:
- Amount of casualties as % of the target template: more heavily beaten formations likelier to get reinforced
- Amount of damage taken last combat round: A formation taking massive amounts of damage might be more or less likely to get reinforced
- Enemy breakthroughs: A formation that has been broken through is less likely to get reinforcements (could also make it so they don't get reinforcements)
- Total formation size (whatever is left alive so a lone surviving soldier isn't going to get a full reinforce) - this should also affect the total amount of reinforcements that a formation can receive
- Reserves total size: A reserve pool can mobilize a % of its total size to reinforce but not more - % could be affected by tech or maybe a new logistical unit class
- Position of formation: Do frontline formations get priority to reinforcements? Or do further back support positions get more reinforcements because it's easier for them to receive?
- Tot no. of casualties last combat round: Maybe only a % of casualties every combat round can be reinforced, maybe % influenced by tech or logistics
And more

Edit: I am a moron and forgot to write for after 3.
4 - Transports could have an additional "load units from reserve" that would allow them to load lets say X many of a unit that exists in the reserve. Unloading these troops should land them in the reserve position of their destination
5 - This would mostly need UI shenanigans to make sure it works smoothly but failing that using the features I discussed here you could just make a dummy template with 1 infantry unit and once built set his formations target template to whatever you want to add from reserves.


Any reserve reinforcements pushed to the front should start at no fortification and a formation should only receive reinforcements if it has an assigned target template to reinforce too or maybe give the player control like a "combat reinforcement" checkbox for the formation. Incoming reinforcement could also have a morale penalty based on the morale state of the formation they are headed to.
All reinforcements should either be handled at the beginning or end of each (or every X) combat round(s).

Apologies for the long one.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: April 15, 2020, 06:38:15 PM »

While that is doable, I agree that a 'update to template' button would be very useful. Why make this harder then need be?

*shrug*  Why make all your units the same?  Certainly the real world doesn't work that way.

I like that after fifteen to twenty years my Militia Battalions have varying numbers of soldiers, and some of my premiere Divisions have extra regiments and/or battalions.

Creating that situation was exactly my intention. In the future I might have some option to use a one-off template to build reinforcements, but I won't be tying formations to fixed templates.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: April 15, 2020, 06:36:19 PM »

Okay.  i was hoping i had missed something.   I built a template realize i forgot to add the HQ unit i wanted to be in it fixed it for the future templates.  Now i have a single template different from the rest.   :D


I ended up just disbanding it and rebuilding a replacement.

Just build a formation with spare HQs and transfer them. In my crusade campaign I built replacement formations with the commonly lost unit types.
Posted by: Icekiller
« on: April 15, 2020, 05:25:40 PM »

Quote from: Father Tim link=topic=10721. msg123168#msg123168 date=1586957356
Quote from: Malorn link=topic=10721. msg123165#msg123165 date=1586956948
While that is doable, I agree that a 'update to template' button would be very useful.  Why make this harder then need be?

*shrug*  Why make all your units the same?  Certainly the real world doesn't work that way.

I like that after fifteen to twenty years my Militia Battalions have varying numbers of soldiers, and some of my premiere Divisions have extra regiments and/or battalions.

You can do both.  The real world does in fact have designated TO&E's for everything.  Not everything adheres to those numbers, but there is an intended size and composition for every military formation.
A real life example would be the German military in WW2.  There was a set standard for what an Infantry Division should be, operational realities didn't always allow for each and every one to be at that level, but there WAS a set level that they should be at. 

Personally, I would just like to see those items side by side.  Have what is in the formation on one side, then have the formation template on the right side.  You could then have another button called "change template" or something to that effect, that would allow you to change what TO&E you are comparing yourself too.  This way, you could upgrade a standard infantry formation to a more modern variant of it. 
Posted by: Krags47
« on: April 15, 2020, 01:09:27 PM »

Quote from: Father Tim link=topic=10721. msg123168#msg123168 date=1586957356
Quote from: Malorn link=topic=10721. msg123165#msg123165 date=1586956948
While that is doable, I agree that a 'update to template' button would be very useful.  Why make this harder then need be?

*shrug*  Why make all your units the same?  Certainly the real world doesn't work that way.


Cause i was just making my first couple of formations and wanted a set template of what the average cost would be. 

Posted by: Father Tim
« on: April 15, 2020, 10:02:36 AM »

Because I'm (like many others) OCD about wanting to have my units be roughly equal to each other, and not having to create custom replacement formations to bring various levels of combat damage back to 'full strength'.
Meanwhile, you can build an extra formation or two and cannibalize them element-by-element as needed. It's not pretty but it works. You don't need custom-tailored replacement formations - just one big lump that you peel elements off as needed.


Yeah, what Garfunkel said.  Build a thousand PW-INF 'Replacement Pool' and move fifteen or one-hundred-and-eight, or however many are needed to top up your combat units.
Posted by: Garfunkel
« on: April 15, 2020, 09:17:00 AM »

Because I'm (like many others) OCD about wanting to have my units be roughly equal to each other, and not having to create custom replacement formations to bring various levels of combat damage back to 'full strength'.
Meanwhile, you can build an extra formation or two and cannibalize them element-by-element as needed. It's not pretty but it works. You don't need custom-tailored replacement formations - just one big lump that you peel elements off as needed.
Posted by: Gyrfalcon
« on: April 15, 2020, 09:07:26 AM »

Because I'm (like many others) OCD about wanting to have my units be roughly equal to each other, and not having to create custom replacement formations to bring various levels of combat damage back to 'full strength'.
Posted by: Father Tim
« on: April 15, 2020, 08:29:16 AM »

While that is doable, I agree that a 'update to template' button would be very useful. Why make this harder then need be?

*shrug*  Why make all your units the same?  Certainly the real world doesn't work that way.

I like that after fifteen to twenty years my Militia Battalions have varying numbers of soldiers, and some of my premiere Divisions have extra regiments and/or battalions.

- - - - -

Okay, the real answer is programming time.  'Rebuild to Template' is almost certainly coming in a month or two, along with the hundreds of other cosmetic and Quality of Life improvements that Steve has said didn't make it into v1 C# Aurora 'cause he wanted to release it now, not in July.
Posted by: Malorn
« on: April 15, 2020, 08:22:28 AM »

While that is doable, I agree that a 'update to template' button would be very useful. Why make this harder then need be?
Posted by: Father Tim
« on: April 15, 2020, 06:47:57 AM »

Okay.  i was hoping i had missed something.   I built a template realize i forgot to add the HQ unit i wanted to be in it fixed it for the future templates.  Now i have a single template different from the rest.   :D


I ended up just disbanding it and rebuilding a replacement.

If it happens again, remember you can add any unit to any (completed) ground forces at any time.  So build a new HQ and drag-and-drop it into place.

This is also how one deals with combat casualties.
Posted by: Garfunkel
« on: April 15, 2020, 04:47:04 AM »

You can build just the HQ and then click'n'drag it to be part of the formation that's missing HQ.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: April 15, 2020, 04:00:11 AM »

This is how I would like it to work is possible in the future.

I would like replacement to be streamlined and simplified so you just build a replacement unit, you can then use that to replace losses based on cost. So the replacement unit may contain say 100 BP worth of replacement and then each template is a rigid formation in terms of what is contains... with supply formations and all. You just target the replacement unit to reinforce a specific formation and it automatically try to equalise the losses in that unit.

You then can update and change templates... if you just reduce the number of troops in a formation you simply spawn replacement units at the locations where those formations are.

It would obviously reduce micro management at the cost of some granularity... but I think I could survive that in general.
Posted by: thashepherd
« on: April 15, 2020, 01:07:06 AM »

It would be nice if ground unit training facilities had a 'refit to' functionality that operated at the formation level.