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Posted by: Father Tim
« on: May 04, 2020, 07:08:09 AM »

Quote from: TMaekler on May 03, 2020, 06:36:45 AM
Was there a discussion about this? To me it seems that differenciating between military and commercial jump drives doesn't add much to the gameplay. So why do we have them in the first place?


No.  Steve mentioned a while back that he wasn't thinking about the VB way while coding and simply wrote "civ-civ" and "mil-mil".  Later, someone offered the explanation that military jump drives opened a much 'rougher' wormhole and only military engines could handle the stresses of using it -- sort of the equivalent of 'you need a tracked vehicle to get through here' -- to justify the change.

- - - - -

Basically, we have military & civilian systems because people didn't like micromanaging maintenance for all the support ships an empire needed, and we have civilian vessels ten times the size of military vessels because people looked at container ships & supertankers vs modern frigates & destroyers and decided that was an appropriate ratio.  Then we needed civilian jump drives because back then a ship couldn't jump anything larger than itself.  And we forbade civilian jump drives from moving military-engined ships so there would be a reason to build military jump ships.
Posted by: Zincat
« on: May 03, 2020, 04:29:57 PM »

Quote from: alex_brunius on May 03, 2020, 04:19:42 PM
Quote from: TMaekler on May 03, 2020, 06:36:45 AM
Was there a discussion about this? To me it seems that differenciating between military and commercial jump drives doesn't add much to the gameplay. So why do we have them in the first place?

My guess would be so that it's not overly expensive ( in research and buildcost ) to make commercial ships ( that are ~10 times the size of Military ships ) jump capable.

What alex brunius said. You can make a half-million tons civilian ship easily. Civilian jump drives only cost a fraction of the military jump drives, and in exchange for that they have much worse efficiency.
Posted by: alex_brunius
« on: May 03, 2020, 04:19:42 PM »

Quote from: TMaekler on May 03, 2020, 06:36:45 AM
Was there a discussion about this? To me it seems that differenciating between military and commercial jump drives doesn't add much to the gameplay. So why do we have them in the first place?

My guess would be so that it's not overly expensive ( in research and buildcost ) to make commercial ships ( that are ~10 times the size of Military ships ) jump capable.
Posted by: TMaekler
« on: May 03, 2020, 06:36:45 AM »

Was there a discussion about this? To me it seems that differenciating between military and commercial jump drives doesn't add much to the gameplay. So why do we have them in the first place?
Posted by: Father Tim
« on: May 02, 2020, 01:29:50 AM »

Quote from: Noble713 on May 01, 2020, 04:14:22 AM
For some reason I THOUGHT a military jump drive could squadron jump anything, but apparently not.  :'(


They could before, now they can't.  Whether this is a bug or a design decision only Steve can say, but it's certainly annoying to a large number of us.
Posted by: skoormit
« on: May 01, 2020, 09:10:55 AM »

Quote from: Noble713 on May 01, 2020, 04:14:22 AM
Hmmmm, I seem to have suffered from this as well.

I designed my ships as follows:
Frigate Leader: Commercial Engine, Military Jump Drive capable of 4-ship squadron jumps (for leading squadrons into contested/defended jump points)
Frigates: Commercial Engine, Civilian Jump Drive capable of self-jump only (cheap and requires far less crew, for independent movement or emergency retreats)

For some reason I THOUGHT a military jump drive could squadron jump anything, but apparently not.  :'(

A military JD can only jump military engines, no matter if the transit type is standard or squadron.
A commercial JD can only jump commercial engines, which means the transit type is always standard.
Posted by: Noble713
« on: May 01, 2020, 04:14:22 AM »

Hmmmm, I seem to have suffered from this as well.

I designed my ships as follows:
Frigate Leader: Commercial Engine, Military Jump Drive capable of 4-ship squadron jumps (for leading squadrons into contested/defended jump points)
Frigates: Commercial Engine, Civilian Jump Drive capable of self-jump only (cheap and requires far less crew, for independent movement or emergency retreats)

For some reason I THOUGHT a military jump drive could squadron jump anything, but apparently not.  :'(
Posted by: skoormit
« on: April 25, 2020, 10:39:44 AM »

Quote from: Migi on April 22, 2020, 02:38:04 PM
Quote from: Pedroig on April 22, 2020, 10:37:42 AM
Hmm, what about a Military Station (ship with no engine at all) and a Commercial "jump capable" Tug?  What happens if a Tug attaches to a military engine ship, how does the "new" ship jump?

Will a tractor beam work through a jump point?

I don't think that a station can transit jump points (but I might be wrong).
You could use a tug to bring a station with a military jump drive to a warp point, I think the station would be stuck there and unable to leave the system so it would only provide access in and out. And if you put engines on it then it's just a military jump tender anyway.

...

A tractor beam will "work" through a jump point in the sense that a tug can transit a jump point while towing something.
A tractor beam will not "work" through a jump point by reaching through to the other side to pull a ship through.

A station can transit a jump point.
I build my jump gates with engineless stations. When they build one side of the gate, they transit through and then build the other side.
Posted by: Father Tim
« on: April 22, 2020, 02:47:29 PM »

In other words, we'd all prefer if everyone would just "get it right" but quite a lot of us disagree on what "right" is.

At least civilian/commercial doesn't break the game like period vs comma for decimal separator.
Posted by: Pedroig
« on: April 22, 2020, 02:44:37 PM »

That it is.  Commercial is a type of activity.

Would prefer MILSPEC and CIVSPEC for component types and then Military or Civilian for ship class types.  Then there would be Governmental (Military and Civilian) and Commercial (Civilian only? PMC would be interesting though) fleets.
Posted by: Migi
« on: April 22, 2020, 02:38:04 PM »

Quote from: Pedroig on April 22, 2020, 10:37:42 AM
Hmm, what about a Military Station (ship with no engine at all) and a Commercial "jump capable" Tug?  What happens if a Tug attaches to a military engine ship, how does the "new" ship jump?

Will a tractor beam work through a jump point?

I don't think that a station can transit jump points (but I might be wrong).
You could use a tug to bring a station with a military jump drive to a warp point, I think the station would be stuck there and unable to leave the system so it would only provide access in and out. And if you put engines on it then it's just a military jump tender anyway.

So basically you should be resigned to building yet another Naval shipyard. Thanks Steve.

Quote from: Father Tim on April 22, 2020, 12:06:11 PM
P.S.:  Between VB Aurora and C# Aurora the terms 'civilian' and 'commercial' swapped meanings.  A lot of people used them interchangeably to begin with, and some of us old timers don't always remember which way round it currently is.

For some reason I thought that engines were civilian or military, but I just checked and they are either commercial or military. I always try to use commercial to refer to the civilian companies. The naming is a bit of a mess.
Posted by: Father Tim
« on: April 22, 2020, 12:06:11 PM »

Quote from: Pedroig on April 22, 2020, 10:37:42 AM
Hmm, what about a Military Station (ship with no engine at all) and a Commercial "jump capable" Tug?  What happens if a Tug attaches to a military engine ship, how does the "new" ship jump?

Will a tractor beam work through a jump point?

In VB Aurora, originally 'no engine' was treated as 'military engine'.  It was changed to 'no engine = civilian engine' so that either type of jump engine could move one.

In C# Aurora, if Steve maintained his programming logic, items default to commercial.  Most likely 'no engine = commercial engine' but I haven't checked.  If so, this would require a commercial jump engine to move such a station.

No, tractor beams don't "work" through a jump point, but since jumping doesn't require 'movement' it largely doesn't matter.  Steve fixed the bug where jumping would automatically break tractor links, but since military jump drives can no longer jump commercial engines, you'll need to organize your sub-fleets by engine type if you want to do a squadron transit.  Standard tranists ignore exactly which ship is where, because Standard Transits assume there's nothing within two hours to bother you.

Also, there's nothing about a Tug that requires it to have military or commercial engines, or that makes it a military or commercial vessel.

Also, also, the check follows the logic "is any of the forbidden thing present" so putting both military and commercial engines (or jump drives) on the same ship merely ensures that it can't jump at all.

- - - - -

P.S.:  Between VB Aurora and C# Aurora the terms 'civilian' and 'commercial' swapped meanings.  A lot of people used them interchangeably to begin with, and some of us old timers don't always remember which way round it currently is.
Posted by: Pedroig
« on: April 22, 2020, 10:37:42 AM »

Hmm, what about a Military Station (ship with no engine at all) and a Commercial "jump capable" Tug?  What happens if a Tug attaches to a military engine ship, how does the "new" ship jump?

Will a tractor beam work through a jump point?

Posted by: Father Tim
« on: April 22, 2020, 10:29:02 AM »

Quote from: idefelipe on April 22, 2020, 05:57:55 AM
Hey there.

I have designed a couple of Jump Tenders, but each time I try to jump with them and another ship, it always show "jump failure" because of the engines. I think it is because I mixed commercial engines in military ships or viceversa or something:

Quote
Psyche class Jump Tender      6.982 tons       130 Crew       390,7 BP       TCS 140    TH 188    EM 0
1342 km/s    JR 3-50      Armour 1-32       Shields 0-0       HTK 35      Sensors 5/5/0/0      DCR 1      PPV 0
MSP 34    Max Repair 191,3 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months   

Lockheed Martin J8000(3-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 8000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3

Takemitsu Thrust Commercial Nuclear Thermal Engine  EP62,5 - 0.8 (3)    Power 187,5    Fuel Use 8,94%    Signature 62,5    Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 250.000 Litres    Range 72 billion km (621 days at full power)

Najeeb Commercial Thermal Sensor TH1,0-5 (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  17,7m km
Najeeb Commercial EM Sensor EM1,0-5 (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  17,7m km

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes


What am I doing wrong?  ???

These two things need to be both military, or both commercial.
Posted by: Migi
« on: April 22, 2020, 07:25:45 AM »

If you park the jump tender on the jump point you should be able to send the military engined ship through separately.
Because the jump tender and survey ship have civilian engines they need a civilian jump drive, they can't use the military one. As of 1.7.x or 1.8 those jump drives need to be on separate ships.