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Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: January 03, 2021, 11:49:33 AM »

If I am starting out with a large battle fleet in a single-player game, I usually have 'alien ruins on Mars' in the campaign background, or some other similar pretext to explain the military forces.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: January 03, 2021, 10:47:35 AM »

Quote from: misanthropope on January 02, 2021, 09:34:28 PM
it isn't at ALL like the thing you said.  what it's like, is this:

no aliens/ have fleet:  score infinity.       no aliens/ no fleet:  score infinity
yes aliens/ have fleet:  score 1              yes aliens/  no fleet:  score zero.

the effort of building a fleet in the "universe is ours!" is precisely the opposite of spending "the majority of your life..." doing anything.

edit note:  no words were put into my mouth and i have no idea why i suddenly turned super pissy there for a second.

First I like to say sorry for upsetting you, that is and never was my intention... but...  it is sort of like "Pascals Wager" about gods existence and I think that is a pretty bad argument to make... no matter what you believe.  ;)

I don't object to the logic in the statement as that is perfectly legit. I just don't agree with the risk versus the reward calculations in the statement.

It is more about what is realistic in this specific situation... the "risk" in reality are so small that the argument make very little sense. People would never climb into a car if they worried they would be seriously injured or worse with this level or risk tolerance in my opinion. That is why I think it is a bad argument as you can argue this about ANY risk we ever take on ANYTHING. We would never get out of bed in the mornings.

I'm not being obtuse or condescending but the chances for intelligent life close to us is so remote that preparing for it in this extreme is a bad argument. It is even LESS likely if there is an easy way to travel between the stars as that would make things way more likely we would have came into contact with one a long time ago. The likelihood that there is another life form out there close to us with a technology level even remotely in a similar stage as us are astronomically small. I think it is better to just accept that we do it because it is fun, cool or whatever the reason we do it. Or... we make up a believable story why we do it.

Would it be possible for a government to scare the public about some fake alien threat and therefore getting funds for a military no one really needs... sure... anything is possible... so tell that story and make it believable. But also explain why they do this... religions or philosophical reasons... perhaps they have secret evidence of alien life, I'm sure it will be an interesting story.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: January 03, 2021, 10:19:31 AM »

Quote from: QuakeIV on January 03, 2021, 03:54:05 AM
You would probably want at least some kind of token fleet in absence of anything else, particularly since it would be obviously possible to potentially do a huge amount of damage very quickly with very little.

Honestly usually the way I play its a matter of supressing rebels.  So I would have a small force of ships that are mainly meant to bomb planets (but have some ability towards ship to ship combat), and then an even smaller force of ships meant for ship to ship combat in case any given ship were to go rogue.

It make sense to keep a policing force in order to make sure no rouge political faction take advantage of a specific situation. But that is sort of evidence for the need of some military presence and a good reason for using it. Satisfying the PPV on colonies is a game mechanic we need to deal with for that very reason. So, having some patrol ships and some orbital stations around colonies makes total sense in that regard. It also is a reason for us to pursue some military technologies despite having no external threats.

in most games I usually stumble upon some alien threats rather quickly so the time between having no to little military needs and needing a serious one are usually not that long.


Posted by: QuakeIV
« on: January 03, 2021, 03:54:05 AM »

You would probably want at least some kind of token fleet in absence of anything else, particularly since it would be obviously possible to potentially do a huge amount of damage very quickly with very little.

Honestly usually the way I play its a matter of supressing rebels.  So I would have a small force of ships that are mainly meant to bomb planets (but have some ability towards ship to ship combat), and then an even smaller force of ships meant for ship to ship combat in case any given ship were to go rogue.
Posted by: misanthropope
« on: January 02, 2021, 09:34:28 PM »

it isn't at ALL like the thing you said.  what it's like, is this:

no aliens/ have fleet:  score infinity.       no aliens/ no fleet:  score infinity
yes aliens/ have fleet:  score 1              yes aliens/  no fleet:  score zero.

the effort of building a fleet in the "universe is ours!" is precisely the opposite of spending "the majority of your life..." doing anything.

edit note:  no words were put into my mouth and i have no idea why i suddenly turned super pissy there for a second.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: January 02, 2021, 08:29:37 PM »

Quote from: misanthropope on January 02, 2021, 06:31:55 PM
"if there are no aliens, infinite wealth is ours for the taking, and the expense associated with a fleet is meaningless.  if there are aliens, the fleet is an utter requirement".

to build a fleet is literally the dominant strategy.

That is like you saying you are going to spend the majority of your life working for no gain in the notion that there "might" be some imaginary event instead of spending your life doing something really worth while. You can still save some resources as an insurance for a rainy day but you are not going to spend the majority of your energy for nothing if you are able to do otherwise, that would be a sad life spent. Time is a very real resource for "real" people who actually do inhabit your "game"... ;)

There would be no reason for us to prepare for some imaginary hostile intelligent life from a realistic perspective without some evidence for it. Just because we figure out a way to travel the stars does not make intelligent life more likely out there, I would say it would make it way less likely if there was an easy way to travel the stars from a logical perspective.

Now... you can easily have a role-play story about an alien artifact that was found on Mars that contained the knowledge of untapping the power of trans Newtonian materials and that this artifact only was perhaps 10-100.000 years or so old. Then I might see a reason for investing in some military preparations... although if you met that alien I don't think it would matter anyway...  ;) ...and they have already been here and left this artifact in the hopes we one day would find it... what are the odds they are hostile to begin with?!?

I think that for most people playing it has more to do what is cool rather than being realistic... because it is fun... and there is nothing wrong with that. Some people do it because they know for a fact there is aliens out there as they played the game before (or simply know), so it is less about role-play and that is fine too... nothing wrong with that. It also is perfectly easy to make up a story, you can rip it right out of the "Independence Day" movies if you wish. I think that rationalizing building a large military fleet before evidence of an advanced hostile alien intelligent life are generally weak backtracking logic, but that is my personal opinion... you can do much better if that is your intentions. I bet there are many good stories playing out in peoples heads for why they do the things they do. Some people play it as a pure game, some play out a specific story in a specific setting and other go all in on role play and try to rationalize every decisions made as if it was living breathing agents with real unique motivation and allow the game to evolve naturally from there without a specific end goal of the setting in mind. Aurora inspires role-play in a rather diverse form so there is no wrong way to approach it.

So my objection is not one of the direct technical nature but one of logical economic and development level. A focus on an efficient defensive strategy together with an aggressive expansion philosophy would make you even stronger the day you "actually" meet that potential enemy we all know you will eventually meet. Investing in an expensive military will hugely hamper you economic and scientific progress for no real gain as that fleet will be outdated much faster than an otherwise leaner military can be updated with better technology and more focused on the task at hand. In my opinion it is a win win scenario all around.

Investing no resource what so ever in a military is from a role-play perspective quite a sane strategy if we have no evidence for intelligent life, it also pose a pretty interesting challenge down the road.

In my opinion the proposed carrier fleet doctrine are quite sound in theory and very fun to pursue and I see no direct problem going down that road. As long as the player don't explore the chances to meet any aliens are pretty slim. If you did not create any starting aliens either the chances are zero and you literally have almost unlimited time to build up (depending on resources in Sol that is). I know allot of people who mention they expand very slowly for the fact they are less likely to create aliens that way and stay in Sol for the same reason for a long time.

Personally, if I play a standard Earth unified start with no knowledge of any aliens, I just expand like crazy as that is what I believe we would do if we could. It obviously almost always end in some sort of disaster but that is the fun part.  ;)
Posted by: misanthropope
« on: January 02, 2021, 06:31:55 PM »

"if there are no aliens, infinite wealth is ours for the taking, and the expense associated with a fleet is meaningless.  if there are aliens, the fleet is an utter requirement".

to build a fleet is literally the dominant strategy.
Posted by: StarshipCactus
« on: January 01, 2021, 09:01:59 PM »

Yeah, the 100K ton carrier is probably far more than would be done imo. What would be done imo, is some research invested into military matters, and plenty of prototype ships built/tested to see what works. You would wind up with a relatively small fleet with long range capabilities, but not super strong because maintaining is expensive. Still, better than a few PPV corvettes.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: January 01, 2021, 09:51:10 AM »

Quote from: StarshipCactus on January 01, 2021, 07:30:05 AM
A politician or grand strategy expert could easily deliver a proclamation of doom in the senate, or equivalent. Warning of the potential dangers of other species out in space. It would be very easy to make an argument that other species existed and could travel space and pose a threat. After all, Humanity is in space, it is clearly possible, even if you don't know how likely. Numerous space telescopes pointed to the stars have probably detected many planets, much like we have today, only a hundred times better. One of those planets could have aliens and they might not be friendly. Is it worth the risk? Also, if you find ruins, you'll have an even easier time arguing that you need a navy with more capabilities than basic security and anti piracy duties.

Sure... to some extent... but there are likely limits to what would be actually done in practical terms. My basic reaction to the OP is one of enormous waste in research and resources that you would only ever see if you were in a total war scenario given the overall technology level and industry used.

There is a pretty big difference there... the amount of RP invested into that fleet will come out at 100k+ easily and on top of that I have not seen the jump drives to propel that fleet beyond Sol system. If the fleet is not suppose to go beyond Sol I see even less reason for building it. A jump engine with level 8 efficiency tech to jump a 100k carrier would take over 50k research alone. Level 8 jump tech is on par with the technology used.
Posted by: StarshipCactus
« on: January 01, 2021, 07:30:05 AM »

A politician or grand strategy expert could easily deliver a proclamation of doom in the senate, or equivalent. Warning of the potential dangers of other species out in space. It would be very easy to make an argument that other species existed and could travel space and pose a threat. After all, Humanity is in space, it is clearly possible, even if you don't know how likely. Numerous space telescopes pointed to the stars have probably detected many planets, much like we have today, only a hundred times better. One of those planets could have aliens and they might not be friendly. Is it worth the risk? Also, if you find ruins, you'll have an even easier time arguing that you need a navy with more capabilities than basic security and anti piracy duties.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: January 01, 2021, 07:09:02 AM »

Quote from: vorpal+5 on January 01, 2021, 05:10:57 AM
Depends ... (about building a war fleet before meeting aliens in the real world). Because I don't think major nations will go away anytime soon. Meaning you can bet than in  50 years, there will be Chinese cruisers and US carriers in the solar system. Because tech improvements is exponential, not linear. That is, if we don't kill ourselves like stoopid by sacking our own planet.

Sure... as I said... in a multi-faction Earth it make allot of sense... I have played in many such version in Aurora.

But if you are in a unified Earth scenario who are the ships suppose to be fighting against unless there is some alien forces out there?!?

Is it no just enough with some rudimentary patrol ships at that point as there are no real enemy besides to occasional "terrorist" or something by that stage.
Posted by: vorpal+5
« on: January 01, 2021, 05:10:57 AM »

Depends ... (about building a war fleet before meeting aliens in the real world). Because I don't think major nations will go away anytime soon. Meaning you can bet than in  50 years, there will be Chinese cruisers and US carriers in the solar system. Because tech improvements is exponential, not linear. That is, if we don't kill ourselves like stoopid by sacking our own planet.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: January 01, 2021, 04:25:14 AM »

Quote from: Borealis4x on December 31, 2020, 05:13:29 AM
Quote from: Jorgen_CAB on December 30, 2020, 06:18:11 PM
snip

I suppose its a debate over speed vs stealth. My thinking is that a Carrier Task Force should be anything but subtle and should not have to hide, and should be able to respond quickly to threats while being able to run away if it really needs to.

As for justifying why my empire needs a carrier in the first place when it hasn't encountered any ships, I admit it bothers me as well. I wish there was some reason to invest in small Patrol ships early on to keep the peace even when you haven't encountered any aliens, kinda like how garrisons are necessary.

On another note, what do people think about putting a beam weapon or two on the cruiser at the expense of some missile silos? It bothers me that I don't have any offensive weapons with unlimited ammo and am vulnerable if any ship gets up close.

Sure this is all about doctrine... just that my doctrine that I proposed are way cheaper so you can get more ships and more advanced ones... that is what I was trying to say. The main problem is the amount of resources, both minerals and research you need for your ships. Especially in a situation when you don't even need them yet.... you must have a really Hawkish government back on Earth.  ;)

You do need ships or stations to cover PPV but that exclude Earth itself though.

I think you still should consider your carrier doctrine because that is cool and I see no direct issues with your designs other than the enormous research costs, I would never be able to afford those costs in my games in general... although I usually play with about 10-15% research costs and a bunch of other self inflicted rules for usage of research complexes so I'm a bit biased here.  ;)

I would just wait an develop the fleet once I found a real threat, that way you might have way better overall technology to combat that threat with. You are not going to go on the offensive day one you meet anyone anyway, not normally anyway. It also give you the knowledge about what you need so you can design the fleet based on the enemy designs after you had a chance to study them.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: January 01, 2021, 04:13:53 AM »

Quote from: xenoscepter on December 31, 2020, 05:26:34 AM
- I'll preamble by saying I wholeheartedly disagree with Jorgen_CAB on the matter of why, as I have never really been able to justify not having some sort of competent Navy before or shortly after exploring Jump Points. After all... If I can cross the stars whose to say I'm the only one with such an ability? That said, small Patrol Ships give PPV, or Planetary Protection Value, which means you don't need garrisons everywhere as they apply their bonus to every planet in their system.

In most of the games that I have played in the recent years it usually have taken me quite a while to come across any evidence for intelligent alien life, before that I don't think that we as a human species would create a large military force in space to defend our self unless it is against our self... which is the main reason I have had military ships of some sort before meeting an alien race. In those cases I only build notional fleets to deal with PPV issues or minor patrol crafts, unless I play a multi faction Earth start, then all bets are off... ;)

I'm not saying it is wrong to build a fleet before you meet an alien race... I think you can have many role-play explanations for it.... just make sure it is justified if you role-play that is all I say.
Posted by: xenoscepter
« on: December 31, 2020, 09:25:08 AM »

 - Well, these are AMM focused Escorts, the main fleet has plenty sufficient Gauss and Laser Based PD such that these are only there to thin out truly massive waves such as those that certain spoiler races might be inclined to throw out, or perhaps the small craft of certain other spoilers. Restocking them only takes about 3.5 hours at base ordinance transfer tech, so a single collier could have a full squadron of six restocked in just under a day.