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Posted by: Density
« on: December 11, 2021, 09:20:19 PM »

Quote from: Migi on December 11, 2021, 10:09:50 AM
Quote from: Density on December 10, 2021, 03:45:49 PM
Quote from: db48x on December 10, 2021, 01:47:54 AM
At any rate, perhaps we should update http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg113856#msg113856. It should mention stabilized jump points at least.

Why? There are no special rules to how jump shock works for when a transit is done via stabilized JPs as opposed to any other method.
There is clearly a lot of confusion around jump shock so I don't see why some clarification about not-necessarily-intuitive scenarios would be a bad thing.
Most AARs describe jump shock affecting the crew. The wiki says it's a "sensor distortion effect" so I guess the fact that jump drives are affected changed with C#?
If you read the exact wording, the 1.0 post says that jump shock affects the ship, which leads to the following train of thought: ship is affected by jump shock, jump shock disables jump engines, therefore ship can't transit jump points.
The exception (1.13 and earlier): it can transit a stabilised jump points because those don't require jump engines to transit.
I'm not opposed to a clarification, I'm opposed to calling it an exception and to singling out stabilized JPs; players may still assume there might be more to stabilized JPs than they are being told. I would phrase it something like:
In 1.13 and earlier, ships affected by jump shock can transit jump points when a non-shocked method is available, such as a stabilized jump point or another jump engine (i.e. a jump tender).
and even that isn't perfect because it doesn't really get into the non-intuitiveness of the current rules, which boils down to: a jump engine can be disabled from shock without being used, and a jump engine can be used without suffering shock.

Anyway, yeah, another good thing about the change is that it'll be more intuitive and much easier to explain.
Posted by: Migi
« on: December 11, 2021, 10:09:50 AM »

Quote from: Density on December 10, 2021, 03:45:49 PM
Quote from: db48x on December 10, 2021, 01:47:54 AM
At any rate, perhaps we should update http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg113856#msg113856. It should mention stabilized jump points at least.

Why? There are no special rules to how jump shock works for when a transit is done via stabilized JPs as opposed to any other method.
There is clearly a lot of confusion around jump shock so I don't see why some clarification about not-necessarily-intuitive scenarios would be a bad thing.
Most AARs describe jump shock affecting the crew. The wiki says it's a "sensor distortion effect" so I guess the fact that jump drives are affected changed with C#?
If you read the exact wording, the 1.0 post says that jump shock affects the ship, which leads to the following train of thought: ship is affected by jump shock, jump shock disables jump engines, therefore ship can't transit jump points.
The exception (1.13 and earlier): it can transit a stabilised jump points because those don't require jump engines to transit.


Quote
Quote from: Migi on December 10, 2021, 09:58:26 AM
If an NPR fleet chases another fleet across a jump point, can the chasing fleet shoot immediately? Does it make a difference if the JP is stabilised?

No, the chasing fleet would suffer jump shock from transitting.
For some reason I had forgotten that Beam Fire Controls would be affected.


Quote from: Steve Walmsley on December 09, 2021, 02:36:10 PM
Quote from: Migi on December 09, 2021, 01:17:43 PM
Maybe a different question to ask is why one both sides don't try to retreat in-system?
Rather than trying to flee to an adjacent system, why don't they attempt to link up with a friendly fleet or flee towards a core system?
As long as the path to a friendly fleet or core system is in a direction for both sides, it will cause them to break contact.

Because if the enemy is armed and you are not, you are a lot safer on the other side of a jump point than heading in-system, especially as you are probably slower. The ship would be wreckage long before reaching a population or friendly fleet if it stayed in range of the enemy force. The NPRs assess the best option to reach safety as quickly as possible. The idea here is for the NPRs to behave in a way that gives them the best chance to survive, not the one that creates the fewest interrupts for a player. I just need to deal with any repetitive situations caused by the need for self-preservation.

So in a scenario (different to the one you had) where two fleets meet at a *stabilised* jump point, and both sides believe that Fleet S is stronger than Fleet W. Fleet S tries to engage and Fleet W tries to escape.
In 1.13 and earlier being able to transit every increment would allow Fleet W to remain out of range by keeping the jump point 'between' them forever.*
In 2.0 neither side will be able to transit every increment. Now Fleet W needs to recover from jump shock faster than Fleet S in order to keep jumping before Fleet S can shoot. Eventually, through random chance, (accelerated or slowed if there is difference in crew grade) Fleet S will recover faster and fire upon Fleet W, so continuous transiting is no longer a guarantee of safety.
Does that mean you'll change the AI so that fleets are less likely to try and shield themselves by continually jumping? Or is it moot because they will get destroyed eventually either way?


*If Fleet S is strong enough, it can split and cover both sides at the same time. On a long enough time scale one side will build and send reinforcements.
Posted by: Vandermeer
« on: December 11, 2021, 08:28:54 AM »

It seems the jump shock is already decided upon, and I guess it is kind of ok, though I hope it does actually also solve the specific issue about not just turning the 5sec intervals into 2 minutes or something when those AI ships realize they should return once more to the JP after the shock is cleared. (I guess that would only result in loop if their speed is identical though)
I liked Iceranger's idea more still, since it would solve a number of AI issues at once and also create some curiosity towards their behavior.(..which then can be RP interpreted as personality, which I am always a fan of) Might be harder to realize on grand scale though.
Quote from: Steve Walmsley on December 10, 2021, 03:45:37 AM
Yes, the NPRs have a mechanics advantage during jump point attacks. The AI makes fire decisions after movement so they can fire on ships who transit in the same increment. The player has to manually assign firing so he can't fire until the following increment. The fairest thing would be some equivalent form of auto-fire for players, which would trigger a 'fire-at-will' attack against ships that transited in the same increment.
I have found myself on the receiving end of this disadvantage, and it was pretty uncomfortable, since the enemy had vastly better engines, so I could only shoot against them once before they successfully invaded my systems. Since I would have destroyed them if it was fair, and they did destroy one of my fleets when the situation was reversed, yes, I don't like that this is unnecessarily disadvantaging the player. (...and it is confusing too. Before reading it here, I always pondered if it was an error I should report, because I thought 'fire-at-will' was meant to be the state the AI used to barricade jump points. ..But it didn't work for me.)
So I vote for clearing that bump towards auto-fire equality.
Posted by: Density
« on: December 10, 2021, 03:45:49 PM »

Quote from: db48x on December 10, 2021, 01:47:54 AM
At any rate, perhaps we should update http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg113856#msg113856. It should mention stabilized jump points at least.

Why? There are no special rules to how jump shock works for when a transit is done via stabilized JPs as opposed to any other method.

Quote from: Migi on December 10, 2021, 09:58:26 AM
If an NPR fleet chases another fleet across a jump point, can the chasing fleet shoot immediately? Does it make a difference if the JP is stabilised?

No, the chasing fleet would suffer jump shock from transitting. No, there are no special rules for jump shock when a transit is done via stabilized JPs.

The only things that affect how jump shock works is:
1. If it is a squad transit or a standard transit. Shock is shorter for squad transits, but can only be done by a jump-capable fleet using it's own jump engine.
2. NPRs suffer shock for only half as long.

I think the confusion comes in because we notice transit failures when a jump engine is suffering shock, and notice unwanted NPR behavior when they rapidly use stabilized JPs. This isn't happening because of stabilized JPs (if NPRs used jump tenders instead of stabilizing every JP they know about, we'd be seeing the same behavior). This isn't happening because the NPRs have special rules about what is affected by shock (the player can do the same things the NPRs are doing, we are just unlikely to do so except as a test).

The confusion comes from conflating: A. a fleet transiting using its own jump engine, with B. a fleet being able to transit. Currently, the former is affected by jump shock, and the latter isn't. But once a player is led to believe that there's some special rules to jump shock when it's an NPR and/or a stabilized JP, they of course are going to want to know all the things those special rules affect. But there aren't any special rules about this.
Posted by: Migi
« on: December 10, 2021, 09:58:26 AM »

Quote from: Steve Walmsley on December 10, 2021, 03:45:37 AM
Yes, the NPRs have a mechanics advantage during jump point attacks. The AI makes fire decisions after movement so they can fire on ships who transit in the same increment. The player has to manually assign firing so he can't fire until the following increment. The fairest thing would be some equivalent form of auto-fire for players, which would trigger a 'fire-at-will' attack against ships that transited in the same increment.
If an NPR fleet chases another fleet across a jump point, can the chasing fleet shoot immediately? Does it make a difference if the JP is stabilised?
Posted by: serger
« on: December 10, 2021, 05:04:38 AM »

Quote from: Steve Walmsley on December 10, 2021, 03:45:37 AM
Yes, the NPRs have a mechanics advantage during jump point attacks. The AI makes fire decisions after movement so they can fire on ships who transit in the same increment. The player has to manually assign firing so he can't fire until the following increment. The fairest thing would be some equivalent form of auto-fire for players, which would trigger a 'fire-at-will' attack against ships that transited in the same increment.

I don't care about AI advantages - it really needs advantages to make a story interesting! - yet it's often a pain to remember which different rules are for NRP, and so you can make stupid mistake that ruins entire good story if you have no fresh save.
So I'd like so see the thing you have suggested: this way we'll just have no need to remember the special rule.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: December 10, 2021, 03:45:37 AM »

Yes, the NPRs have a mechanics advantage during jump point attacks. The AI makes fire decisions after movement so they can fire on ships who transit in the same increment. The player has to manually assign firing so he can't fire until the following increment. The fairest thing would be some equivalent form of auto-fire for players, which would trigger a 'fire-at-will' attack against ships that transited in the same increment.
Posted by: Kiero
« on: December 10, 2021, 01:51:24 AM »

Quote from: Barkhorn on December 09, 2021, 02:55:45 PM
I have been one of the parties in a repeating jump situation.  I was defending a jump point, and a hostile NPR would repeatedly jump in and out of the system.  My 30k ton laser stations sitting right on the JP could do nothing because they would jump back out on the next increment.  I think we can fix this by making auto-fire happen after motion, detection, and targeting.  This way my laser stations would still get to shoot, which would increase the threat rating in the NPR's perception, or kill their ships.  Either way, the repeated jumps can't happen indefinitely.
You can acquire targets for your BFC the first time they jump in and order to open fire the next increment. That way the next time they jump in you have your guns hot.

Modification to that tactic that worked for me in the past is that I have my fleet on the enemy side of the JP. When hostile ships are detected I'm getting my targets for BFC. Then my fleet is jumping back to my side of the JP a few minutes before aliens do. Sometimes more when missiles are involved.

Then I have just a few increments with open fire order active (I know enemy ships speed and distance so I have an estimate of when to expect them) and my ships are reporting that they cannot fire. Until the enemy fleet jumps in.

Once this led to the surrender of the enemy fleet.

What really bothers me is that when my ships are transiting JP where the enemy is on the other side. They are shooting the same increment the transit occurred. Maybe Fire at will could help here? Or new order "Fire at anything that transit"?
Posted by: db48x
« on: December 10, 2021, 01:47:54 AM »

Another solution would be to add a minimum reaction time to sensor detection based on crew training, leader abilities, and/or other factors that would serve to prevent both fleets from taking action at exactly the same time. I like the idea of using initiative as well.

At any rate, perhaps we should update http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg113856#msg113856. It should mention stabilized jump points at least.
Posted by: Garfunkel
« on: December 09, 2021, 10:21:47 PM »

You mean can't because that's the change here.
Posted by: Malorn
« on: December 09, 2021, 06:25:45 PM »

Quote from: Barkhorn on December 09, 2021, 02:55:45 PM
I have been one of the parties in a repeating jump situation.  I was defending a jump point, and a hostile NPR would repeatedly jump in and out of the system.  My 30k ton laser stations sitting right on the JP could do nothing, because they would jump back out on the next increment.  I think we can fix this by making auto-fire happen after motion, detection, and targeting.  This way my laser stations would still get to shoot, which would increase the threat rating in the NPR's perception, or kill their ships.  Either way, the repeated jumps can't happen indefinitely.

I had this exact problem as well, ships would jump through, see my forces, jump back, and then repeat that again and again. Glad to see Steve is adding in a blocking system so that ships cannot transition and retreat freely, even through a stable point.

Edit: indeed I meant 'cannot', rather than 'can'.
Posted by: Barkhorn
« on: December 09, 2021, 02:55:45 PM »

I have been one of the parties in a repeating jump situation.  I was defending a jump point, and a hostile NPR would repeatedly jump in and out of the system.  My 30k ton laser stations sitting right on the JP could do nothing, because they would jump back out on the next increment.  I think we can fix this by making auto-fire happen after motion, detection, and targeting.  This way my laser stations would still get to shoot, which would increase the threat rating in the NPR's perception, or kill their ships.  Either way, the repeated jumps can't happen indefinitely.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: December 09, 2021, 02:36:10 PM »

Quote from: Migi on December 09, 2021, 01:17:43 PM
Maybe a different question to ask is why one both sides don't try to retreat in-system?
Rather than trying to flee to an adjacent system, why don't they attempt to link up with a friendly fleet or flee towards a core system?
As long as the path to a friendly fleet or core system is in a direction for both sides, it will cause them to break contact.

Because if the enemy is armed and you are not, you are a lot safer on the other side of a jump point than heading in-system, especially as you are probably slower. The ship would be wreckage long before reaching a population or friendly fleet if it stayed in range of the enemy force. The NPRs assess the best option to reach safety as quickly as possible. The idea here is for the NPRs to behave in a way that gives them the best chance to survive, not the one that creates the fewest interrupts for a player. I just need to deal with any repetitive situations caused by the need for self-preservation.
Posted by: Density
« on: December 09, 2021, 02:33:29 PM »

Quote from: Droll on December 09, 2021, 02:21:06 PM
Quote from: Density on December 09, 2021, 02:19:15 PM
Quote from: nuclearslurpee on December 09, 2021, 01:21:10 PM
As far as fluff goes, I always thought jump drives held the wormhole open (otherwise stationary jump tenders don't work) and the "shock" was an effect of the wormhole travel itself. A stabilized jump point would be the same, the wormhole is held open but going through it still inflicts the shock effect.

I didn't know until this thread that stable jump points don't inflict jump shock, I thought it was a weird NPR thing to account for weak AI logic. This change makes much more sense to me fluff-wise - and of course mechanically.
They do inflict shock. The distinction is that currently shock doesn't prevent jumping, but it does disable jump engines.

Right so the ships cannot squadron jump but would still be able to do a standard transit. With the change, now standard transit is also being blocked by the shock.
Technically, a fleet that standard transits with a jump engine in the fleet that tries to standard transit before the shock wears off is also blocked.
The cases where fleets can currently standard transit while suffering jump shock is when using a stabilized JP, or there is a jump tender parked at either side of the JP (the tender isn't jumping, so the engine isn't affected by the shock).
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: December 09, 2021, 02:31:04 PM »

Quote from: nuclearslurpee on December 09, 2021, 01:21:10 PM
As far as fluff goes, I always thought jump drives held the wormhole open (otherwise stationary jump tenders don't work) and the "shock" was an effect of the wormhole travel itself. A stabilized jump point would be the same, the wormhole is held open but going through it still inflicts the shock effect.

I didn't know until this thread that stable jump points don't inflict jump shock, I thought it was a weird NPR thing to account for weak AI logic. This change makes much more sense to me fluff-wise - and of course mechanically.

Stable jump points have always inflicted shock. However, you don't need a jump drive to transit them. So the NPRs were under jump shock and couldn't use a jump drive, but they could transit anyway. Now that the jump shock applies to the ship and not the jump engine for transit purposes, it changes the dynamic.