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Topic Summary

Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: Today at 06:00:38 PM »

The 'pre-TN problem' in coding terms is a huge amount of AI code that assumes certain capabilities on the part of a NPR. I would have to go through all that code and add exceptions for the technology and capabilities that an NPR may or may not possess when that code is accessed and then fix all the resulting bugs. I would also have to get the NPR to assess which of the missing capabilities were most important and prioritise them for construction, research, shipbuilding, etc..

It's possible to do it - it's just a HUGE amount of work.

The Industrial NPR is a way to have the presence of a conventional NPR without having to worry about the above.
Posted by: lumporr
« on: Today at 05:26:24 PM »

I solved the pre-TN problem in my own database forays by adding the installations Basic Industry and University, as well as the Industrial and Space Age techs. Basic industry is the same construction value as Conventional with nothing else, while requiring 500k taxable basic labourers (ten times the required workers of Conventional Industry). Universities cost 600 wealth and provide 0.05 research value, 0.02 academy value, and require 50k workers. Industrial Tech unlocks the Military Academy, GFCC, Financial Centre, Conventional Industry (requiring no minerals, but 1200 wealth), and the ability to convert Basic Industry to Conventional for 1100 wealth (on top of the 120 wealth cost of Basic Industry). Space Age unlocks infrastructure, DSTs, shipyards, spaceports, and cargo/refueling/ordnance stations. Forced Labour was included in a separate tech. The rest were unlocked by TN as in the base game. Costs of the techs were 1,000 and 2,000, comparable to TN at 5,000.

This would mean you'd require 20 Universities to match a Research Facility, 50 to match a Military Academy, and 10 Basic Industry requiring 5 million workers to match a Construction Factory requiring 50k.

That's how I did it, anyway!
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: Today at 04:07:19 PM »

Quote from: Aloriel on Today at 03:11:47 PM
Concerning pre-industrial tech NPRs, you said they'd have ground forces. What manner of ground forces would they have? Muskets? Swords? Does it depend on where in some hidden tech tree they are?

Now that you are also planning industrial era NPRs as well, does that also imply that pre-industrial NPRs can become industrial era?

Pre-Ind have the same ground forces they have in v2.5.1, with armour and weapon strength 1. Pre-industrial cannot advance to industrial. They are centuries apart. It's like Rome, or 16th Century Spain, advancing to WW2 Germany.

Pre-industrial and Industrial are fixed tech civilizations - more like special events than serious opponents, although the industrial NPRs could play an interesting role if they end up between two high tech empires.
Posted by: Aloriel
« on: Today at 03:11:47 PM »

Concerning pre-industrial tech NPRs, you said they'd have ground forces. What manner of ground forces would they have? Muskets? Swords? Does it depend on where in some hidden tech tree they are?

Now that you are also planning industrial era NPRs as well, does that also imply that pre-industrial NPRs can become industrial era?
Posted by: Tavik Toth
« on: Today at 01:10:56 PM »

More conventional tech weapons is a great addition!
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: Today at 01:05:07 PM »

Quote from: Kaiser on Today at 12:56:43 PM
I'm MEGA hyped for the 2.6 release in July, it is not true @Steve? ::)

July was the earliest possible date, however thanks to your comment the earliest possible date is now March 2026.

Just kidding ... I hope ...
Posted by: Kaiser
« on: Today at 12:56:43 PM »

I'm MEGA hyped for the 2.6 release in July, it is not true @Steve? ::)
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: Today at 12:36:18 PM »

Quote from: Louella on Today at 10:03:51 AM
Quote from: Steve Walmsley on Today at 07:35:18 AM
What I will do at some point is allow ships to know when a contact is biological - in the same way you can tell the difference in military and commercial engine emissions.

Engine type: Biological ?

And contacts would show as Thermal B300 for a 300 power bio-engine ?

Yes, something on those lines.
Posted by: Louella
« on: Today at 10:03:51 AM »

Quote from: Steve Walmsley on Today at 07:35:18 AM
What I will do at some point is allow ships to know when a contact is biological - in the same way you can tell the difference in military and commercial engine emissions.

Engine type: Biological ?

And contacts would show as Thermal B300 for a 300 power bio-engine ?
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: Today at 07:35:18 AM »

Quote from: Serina on Today at 06:40:37 AM
Quote from: Steve Walmsley on June 05, 2025, 11:46:44 AM
-Snip-

They do apply to spoiler races. At the moment, you know immediately if you have met certain races, which takes away some of the fog of war. The only one where it is impossible is Swarm, because you can't board their ships in v2.6. However, I should have included aliens boarding your ships as a condition, which solves that one too.

Would it be possible to make it so that before you've positively identified, or heck, tried boarding the starswarm, then you still have an option to board them, but when boarding is initiated, you get a combat message along the lines of: No boarding possible, ship is biological in nature? After that you can't board the ships at all. This could also become an interesting feature if you ever decide to add aquatic races or races with particularly high gravity requirements, I can only imagine trying to operate space rated guns in liquid methane under 5xG while attacked by angry space Piranha's would be.. challenging.

What I will do at some point is allow ships to know when a contact is biological - in the same way you can tell the difference in military and commercial engine emissions.
Posted by: Serina
« on: Today at 06:40:37 AM »

Quote from: Steve Walmsley on June 05, 2025, 11:46:44 AM
-Snip-

They do apply to spoiler races. At the moment, you know immediately if you have met certain races, which takes away some of the fog of war. The only one where it is impossible is Swarm, because you can't board their ships in v2.6. However, I should have included aliens boarding your ships as a condition, which solves that one too.

Would it be possible to make it so that before you've positively identified, or heck, tried boarding the starswarm, then you still have an option to board them, but when boarding is initiated, you get a combat message along the lines of: No boarding possible, ship is biological in nature? After that you can't board the ships at all. This could also become an interesting feature if you ever decide to add aquatic races or races with particularly high gravity requirements, I can only imagine trying to operate space rated guns in liquid methane under 5xG while attacked by angry space Piranha's would be.. challenging.
Posted by: BwenGun
« on: Today at 05:47:05 AM »

Quote from: Steve Walmsley on Yesterday at 09:35:51 AM
Quote from: Ghostly on Yesterday at 05:40:41 AM
Between pre-industrial and minor races, will we be getting conventional races as well? I suppose a race with conventional tech/industry wouldn't be too different from a pre-industrial one, except for offering more spoils to its conqueror as it's easier to convert conventional industries than to build brand new ones. Still would add more variety, though, and it'd be fun if such races became capable of progressing into the trans-newtonian era.

Conventional is a lot trickier, because the AI has to manage the transition from conventional to TN, including all the basic research, which is not straightforward. I would have to add a huge number of exceptions into the AI code for capabilities it would normally expect to exist. I might do it one day, but it would be a major piece of work.

Could you cheat to get the same result? Like have a timer start after the player first encounters a conventional civilisation, and then every three months after that they have a chance to gain a point towards TN, with it becoming more likely to gain points as time passes, and then once they hit a certain number it unlocks some/all of the starter TN techs and they then function like a regular AI faction?
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: Today at 02:44:41 AM »

Quote from: Garfunkel on Yesterday at 07:42:56 PM
I would also love to be able to encounter conventional races as they would nicely bridge the gap between preindustrial and minor races. If that feature was added, we could encounter races at all possible "levels" of the game - multi-system NPR, single-system NPR, minor race, conventional race, and preindustrial race. They don't need to be able to progress to TN level ever, either.

Can't wait to play the role of Stormtroopers fighting Ewoks!

I guess one option is conventional-only Empires, rather than "conventional progressing to TN". They would have ground forces and a few non-TN facilities, but not research facilities so they are 'stuck' at that level. Maybe even some conventional-engined spacecraft and ordnance. I'll give it some thought.
Posted by: Garfunkel
« on: Yesterday at 07:42:56 PM »

I would also love to be able to encounter conventional races as they would nicely bridge the gap between preindustrial and minor races. If that feature was added, we could encounter races at all possible "levels" of the game - multi-system NPR, single-system NPR, minor race, conventional race, and preindustrial race. They don't need to be able to progress to TN level ever, either.

Can't wait to play the role of Stormtroopers fighting Ewoks!
Posted by: Ghostly
« on: Yesterday at 11:56:54 AM »

Quote from: Steve Walmsley on Yesterday at 09:35:51 AM
Conventional is a lot trickier, because the AI has to manage the transition from conventional to TN, including all the basic research, which is not straightforward. I would have to add a huge number of exceptions into the AI code for capabilities it would normally expect to exist. I might do it one day, but it would be a major piece of work.

The pre-TN to TN transition being the difficult part makes sense, but even without it, conventional races would still be interesting to encounter. Even if they can't ever tech up or really do anything with their industries, they'd just be another flavor of primitives with an even bigger prize for conquering them still not sure how the NPRs handle their industry, but I vividly remember my starter NPR failing to build a single STO battery during the year and a half it took me to invade their homeworld after defeating its existing defenses from orbit. That is of course assuming such races aren't in the game already, but I've never encountered one like that.

Also, I don't want to nag, but it really feels like you missed a rule for Alien Race Portraits that would allow Rakhas to get identified, as they have no populated colonies, ships, lifeboats or anything to generate ELINT off of (besides maybe their STO active sensors, but I really wouldn't want to rely on that out of all things). Making all ground combat events trigger portrait discovery instead of boarding actions only would fix that, allow players who don't use boarding to identify Precursors and Raiders as well, and frankly would make a lot of sense in general as it'd be quite hard to engage your enemy in glorious melee without ever seeing who you're fighting.