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Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: Today at 10:19:29 AM »


There's already a very strong incentive to move production facilities to smaller colonies, because smaller colonies give you the greatest manufacturing bang for your population buck. I don't see how this would make things worse given the other incentives for spreading out industry (mineral resources, proximity to mining sites, local fleet logistics) still exist, and it's not like financial centres are very good anyway (the consensus advice has always been that you're much better off just relying on taxing civilian shipping). Plus given typical homeworld population sizes, I don't think this should be a problem unless you have thousands of financial centres, in which case, why?

If you think financial centers aren't any good, we clearly follow very different approaches to economic growth.
For any given play style that minimizes the use of financial centers, my observation above is moot.

For my play style, which pursues very aggressive economic growth, financial centers are the best investment available in the game (with the arguable exception of terraforming).

I don't think I've ever heard anyone express the opinion that "you're much better off just relying on taxing civilian shipping."
That seems to imply that players make a choice between increasing civ tax income or building financial centers.
But pursuing either one does not reduce the opportunity to pursue the other.


EDIT:
And in fact I have ~1500 financial centers in my current game, with a total population of ~2.5b.
Why? Because I need the income. I always want to build more stuff, and building financial centers increases my income faster than anything else, which then allows me to build more stuff.

Seconded. I've found financial centers usually quite necessary at least in the early game.

In the current late game with 1000s of civilians, maybe not, but with the changes to civilians in 2.6 I think financial centers will remain useful into the later stages.
Posted by: skoormit
« on: Today at 09:41:56 AM »


There's already a very strong incentive to move production facilities to smaller colonies, because smaller colonies give you the greatest manufacturing bang for your population buck. I don't see how this would make things worse given the other incentives for spreading out industry (mineral resources, proximity to mining sites, local fleet logistics) still exist, and it's not like financial centres are very good anyway (the consensus advice has always been that you're much better off just relying on taxing civilian shipping). Plus given typical homeworld population sizes, I don't think this should be a problem unless you have thousands of financial centres, in which case, why?

If you think financial centers aren't any good, we clearly follow very different approaches to economic growth.
For any given play style that minimizes the use of financial centers, my observation above is moot.

For my play style, which pursues very aggressive economic growth, financial centers are the best investment available in the game (with the arguable exception of terraforming).

I don't think I've ever heard anyone express the opinion that "you're much better off just relying on taxing civilian shipping."
That seems to imply that players make a choice between increasing civ tax income or building financial centers.
But pursuing either one does not reduce the opportunity to pursue the other.


EDIT:
And in fact I have ~1500 financial centers in my current game, with a total population of ~2.5b.
Why? Because I need the income. I always want to build more stuff, and building financial centers increases my income faster than anything else, which then allows me to build more stuff.
Posted by: SevenOfCarina
« on: Today at 08:50:45 AM »

It's an interesting idea, but there is one side-effect I don't think we will like.
Higher population colonies will have a greater wealth multiplier than smaller colonies.
Therefore when we spread out population (which we still will do as much as possible, because population growth remains the long-term economic bottleneck), we will be incentivized to leave financial centers on the homeworld (and/or our largest other colonies), and move actual production facilities to smaller colonies.
This requires us to manage production and logistics across many smaller colonies.
Our current system doesn't penalize us for focusing smaller colonies on financial production, which means we don't have to choose between optimizing income and reducing logistical complexity.

There's already a very strong incentive to move production facilities to smaller colonies, because smaller colonies give you the greatest manufacturing bang for your population buck. I don't see how this would make things worse given the other incentives for spreading out industry (mineral resources, proximity to mining sites, local fleet logistics) still exist, and it's not like financial centres are very good anyway (the consensus advice has always been that you're much better off just relying on taxing civilian shipping). Plus given typical homeworld population sizes, I don't think this should be a problem unless you have thousands of financial centres, in which case, why?
Posted by: ty55101
« on: Today at 08:25:24 AM »

Ground units should get a chance to retarget the formation they attacked in the last ground combat round.

I have heard sentiment from a lot of players that they wish ground combat was more involved and then some people saying that they don't want to spend more time on it.

If Ground Units were to have a decent chance to retarget the same formation (25-50%) then it would allow players to change artillery and ship based support to have a decent chance of damaging certain formations. It would give an incentive for smaller recon formations to locate high value targets and "call in" artillery strikes. Taking STOs out with a smaller landing force in order for slower and less armored troop transports would also become more viable.

This gives an optional added layer to ground combat meaning that some players get the added layer while others can interact with the game in the exact same way.
Posted by: skoormit
« on: Today at 07:28:19 AM »

I am not sure if this has been suggested before, but I'd like to see wealth production scale off the number of service sector workers instead of manufacturing sector workers.

Basically, instead of the current system where
Annual Wealth Production = Wealth Production Rate * Workers Employed in TN Facilities
I'd instead like to have:
Annual Wealth Production = Wealth Production Rate * Total Service Sector Workers * (Workers Employed in TN Facilities)/(Total Manufacturing Sector Workers)

Right now, colonies with a high manufacturing sector percentage are also the colonies that produce the most wealth relative to their size. With this change, a smaller manufacturing sector is no longer "lost" productivity - bigger colonies with large service sectors produce more wealth, while smaller colonies generally have more workers available for manufacturing. This would both be more natural and also create strategic implications, since spreading out your population to boost manufacturing will now have the side-effect of reducing wealth production.

Obviously the wealth production rate would need to be scaled down by a factor of two-ish to compensate.

It's an interesting idea, but there is one side-effect I don't think we will like.
Higher population colonies will have a greater wealth multiplier than smaller colonies.
Therefore when we spread out population (which we still will do as much as possible, because population growth remains the long-term economic bottleneck), we will be incentivized to leave financial centers on the homeworld (and/or our largest other colonies), and move actual production facilities to smaller colonies.
This requires us to manage production and logistics across many smaller colonies.
Our current system doesn't penalize us for focusing smaller colonies on financial production, which means we don't have to choose between optimizing income and reducing logistical complexity.
Posted by: SevenOfCarina
« on: Today at 07:06:30 AM »

Wealth generation used to be based on total population. It was changed to the current method for C#. Here is the post explaining why:
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg112448#msg112448

Yes, but the industrialisation multiplier (i.e., fraction of the available manufacturing workforce employed in TN industries) retains all of these benefits.
Annual Wealth Production = Wealth Production Rate * Total Service Sector Workers * (Workers Employed in TN Facilities)/(Total Manufacturing Sector Workers)

Quote from: Steve Walmsley
1) High population, low industry nations are now easy to handle as most of the population does not generate wealth (it is assumed that the wealth from agriculture and service is used to cover welfare, health, education, etc. with a net wealth of zero).
2) Conventional starts do not generate huge excess wealth
3) As a nation industrialises, its wealth generation capability grows naturally, which reflects historical trends.
4) The planned wealth reserve cap can be removed.
5) Financial centres grow in importance and have more of a wealth impact (in relative terms) compared to VB6.

High population, low industry nations will have a low industrialisation factor, hence the wealth generated by their service sectors would be correspondingly low. However, as more TN industry is added and a greater fraction of the manufacturing workforce is employed in them, the industrialisation factor will rise and thus the wealth generated will also increase.

The idea is that a colony with, say, a 55% service sector and a 40% manufacturing sector will have more workers available for manufacturing (for its size), while a colony with a 70% service sector and a 25% manufacturing sector will have fewer workers available for manufacturing, but will also generate more wealth because of the greater number of service sector workers (assuming, of course, that both colonies are equally industrialised).

I am mostly just interested in creating a trade-off between the manufacturing and service sectors. Right now, you want to maximise the size of the manufacturing sector because manufacturing workers both produce stuff and generate the wealth needed to produce that stuff, so there is an excessive incentive to spread population around into small colonies to "maximise" manufacturing workforce. By decoupling this, losing manufacturing workforce to the service sector no longer feels as bad because it now results in higher wealth generation (assuming, of course, that the industrialisation factor remains constant).
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: Today at 06:07:53 AM »

I am not sure if this has been suggested before, but I'd like to see wealth production scale off the number of service sector workers instead of manufacturing sector workers.

Basically, instead of the current system where
Annual Wealth Production = Wealth Production Rate * Workers Employed in TN Facilities
I'd instead like to have:
Annual Wealth Production = Wealth Production Rate * Total Service Sector Workers * (Workers Employed in TN Facilities)/(Total Manufacturing Sector Workers)

Right now, colonies with a high manufacturing sector percentage are also the colonies that produce the most wealth relative to their size. With this change, a smaller manufacturing sector is no longer "lost" productivity - bigger colonies with large service sectors produce more wealth, while smaller colonies generally have more workers available for manufacturing. This would both be more natural and also create strategic implications, since spreading out your population to boost manufacturing will now have the side-effect of reducing wealth production.

Obviously the wealth production rate would need to be scaled down by a factor of two-ish to compensate.

Wealth generation used to be based on total population. It was changed to the current method for C#. Here is the post explaining why:
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg112448#msg112448
Posted by: SevenOfCarina
« on: Today at 03:08:34 AM »

I am not sure if this has been suggested before, but I'd like to see wealth production scale off the number of service sector workers instead of manufacturing sector workers.

Basically, instead of the current system where
Annual Wealth Production = Wealth Production Rate * Workers Employed in TN Facilities
I'd instead like to have:
Annual Wealth Production = Wealth Production Rate * Total Service Sector Workers * (Workers Employed in TN Facilities)/(Total Manufacturing Sector Workers)

Right now, colonies with a high manufacturing sector percentage are also the colonies that produce the most wealth relative to their size. With this change, a smaller manufacturing sector is no longer "lost" productivity - bigger colonies with large service sectors produce more wealth, while smaller colonies generally have more workers available for manufacturing. This would both be more natural and also create strategic implications, since spreading out your population to boost manufacturing will now have the side-effect of reducing wealth production.

Obviously the wealth production rate would need to be scaled down by a factor of two-ish to compensate.
Posted by: boolybooly
« on: Yesterday at 08:32:16 AM »

I read some earlier posts about MSP and then had a little mishap of my own which got me thinking. What if bigger engineering departments could reduce MSP maintenance cost? Which would give us something to consider when designing to manage fleet MSP consumption.

The source of this idea is a little story in its own right which I will explain. I am still playing v2.1.1 so forgive me if I am missing out later versions' maintenance mechanics. It happened recently in my current game at a well populated outpost in Proxima Centauri that through 'administrative negligence' the colony's MSP ran out and PPV orbitals with varying MSP storage and build costs accrued deployment at different values per class, which puzzled me until I realised colony MSP ran out followed by the orbitals' onboard MSP, resulting eventually in deployment clock starting then component failures. It became apparent that box launcher based orbitals lasted longer than turret based orbitals due to lower build costs and thus lower maintenance costs and as luck would have it slightly higher onboard MSP stores.

I found this interesting and in digesting this mishap wanted to direct the empire towards an MSP consumption economy drive, wondering if I had missed a way to influence vessel maintenance cost in some way, besides making cheaper PPV vessels and avoiding deployment and concluded I had not. As I understand it engineering volume improves maintenance life and reduces the 5yr MSP requirement significantly but does not change maintenance costs.

The C# wiki rules say maintenance cost is 0.25x build cost per annum regardless, so orbitals can have very small engineering components and it will make no difference to maintenance cost as long as EMR (effective maintenance rate) from maintenance facilities is 100% and they have MSP supplies. If I understand correctly, its only when EMR is less than 100% that maintenance life and 5yr figures come into play in relation to the maintenance failure hazard, as happened at Proxima Centauri causing an alert for component failure and inability to repair due to lack of MSPs, which caught me by surprise! 

e.g. a 1000t ship with build cost 280, can have different sizes of engineering bays giving practical maintenance life of between 7.5 to 1.5 yrs and figures for 5yr use between 150 and 1500 MSP respectively but maintenance cost will always be 70 MSP/pa. What if maintenance cost was a bit lower or higher depending on engineering space, to reflect the better maintenance life and repair facilities that larger engineering departments provide? Just thought it might be worth a mention.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: June 26, 2025, 12:07:14 PM »

Also, while you got me yapping about weapons, I think Particle Beams (and especially Lances) not fitting into Spinal mounts is a crime. A Spinal Lance is such a widespread sci-fi trope, it honestly feels weird not having access to them. Not to mention how this would fit the Lances' implementation (tremendous penetrative damage, agonizingly long reload) absolutely perfectly.

Added for v2.6:
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=13463.msg173777#msg173777
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: June 26, 2025, 10:46:20 AM »

The industrial-age NPR addition got me thinking again about warfare among races with a large tech disparity. I'm not saying conventional races should stand any chance of defeating a trans-Newtonic, interstellar empire, but as things stand, it might be impossible for any low-tech race to fight back at all due to how ECM penalty works, with any difference of 5 or above resulting in 0 chance to hit.

Conventional races are an extreme example, but I've generated Swarm races in my game that had ECM advantage of 3 or 4 over me, which forced me to turtle back and tech up until I could engage them, despite otherwise having access to tools that could allow me to fight significantly more advanced enemies (beam fighter swarms, massed missile fire, lance ships with incredibly overbuilt engines and shields would all be effective if not for their miniscule hit chance due to the ECM penalty). If the AI wasn't so meek, passive and easily deterred from assaulting jump points, there's no way I would've won that war. On the other hand, I've encountered a fair share of NPRs who were generated on small, subpar worlds, possessed very low technology and offered marginally more resistance than a Precursor ruin (also vastly outmatched in late-game), requiring no tactical finesse to conquer and presenting no danger, resulting in rather unexciting, tedious campaigns.

Honestly it kinda bugs (haha) me how once the tech disparity is large enough, it becomes mathematically impossible for the lesser race to fight back, so I was wondering if you're willing to consider a different approach to the ECM penalty where the hit chance reduction is not additive, but multiplicative, as follows:



I think the 0.25 option would still penalize low-ECCM races enough (and make small penalties a little more meaningful while avoiding a twofold DPS reduction with ECM Penalty 3->4) but also give the underdog a semblance of a fighting chance. All of this pertains to the Missile/Fire Control Jammers, as far as I could see Sensor Jammers operate with a 0.1 additive penalty and while this makes them rather inconsequental, they're not breaking anything either. Using a larger multplicative penalty for them could be interesting as well though.


Yes, I like the principle and I prefer the 0.25 penalty.
Posted by: Ghostly
« on: June 26, 2025, 06:04:47 AM »

The industrial-age NPR addition got me thinking again about warfare among races with a large tech disparity. I'm not saying conventional races should stand any chance of defeating a trans-Newtonic, interstellar empire, but as things stand, it might be impossible for any low-tech race to fight back at all due to how ECM penalty works, with any difference of 5 or above resulting in 0 chance to hit.

Conventional races are an extreme example, but I've generated Swarm races in my game that had ECM advantage of 3 or 4 over me, which forced me to turtle back and tech up until I could engage them, despite otherwise having access to tools that could allow me to fight significantly more advanced enemies (beam fighter swarms, massed missile fire, lance ships with incredibly overbuilt engines and shields would all be effective if not for their miniscule hit chance due to the ECM penalty). If the AI wasn't so meek, passive and easily deterred from assaulting jump points, there's no way I would've won that war. On the other hand, I've encountered a fair share of NPRs who were generated on small, subpar worlds, possessed very low technology and offered marginally more resistance than a Precursor ruin (also vastly outmatched in late-game), requiring no tactical finesse to conquer and presenting no danger, resulting in rather unexciting, tedious campaigns.

Honestly it kinda bugs (haha) me how once the tech disparity is large enough, it becomes mathematically impossible for the lesser race to fight back, so I was wondering if you're willing to consider a different approach to the ECM penalty where the hit chance reduction is not additive, but multiplicative, as follows:



I think the 0.25 option would still penalize low-ECCM races enough (and make small penalties a little more meaningful while avoiding a twofold DPS reduction with ECM Penalty 3->4) but also give the underdog a semblance of a fighting chance. All of this pertains to the Missile/Fire Control Jammers, as far as I could see Sensor Jammers operate with a 0.1 additive penalty and while this makes them rather inconsequental, they're not breaking anything either. Using a larger multplicative penalty for them could be interesting as well though.

I think all the weapons should be turreted, however have some of them with some drawbacks.  I know turreted Railguns would be powerful, but maybe make them limited to only twin mounts.  Or buff gauss with the amount of possible shots

I'm also mildly annoyed how only some weapons can be turreted, because it could imply than every Railgun or Particle Beam is mounted in a hardpoint (so how does a retreating ship fire its railguns backwards then?) but I understand the game-necessity for it, as 10cm Railguns are already obscenely overpowered for point defense, reaching parity with Gauss only with Gauss ROF 4-6 depending on how fast your ships go, which is a rather large tech investment. In my headcanon, I get around this by viewing non-turreted weapons as mounted in large, battleship-style turrets that are only agile enough to track targets up to the ship's own speed, while a turretted Gauss or a Laser is mounted in a snappy CIWS-style configuration that can track as fast as its gear percentage and BFC speed allow.

Not sure there could be a solution for turrets that could make all these mental gymanstics unnecessary, but I think Gauss in particular could use a buff to its PD capabilities, perhaps a Size vs Caliber setting which would allow it to deal fractional damage in return for smaller weapon size. We already have fractional damage AMMs, having a half-size gauss dealing 0.5 damage per shot would be rather nice against an enemy with Size 10 (or below) missiles, challenging the 10cm Railgun meta. This would also enable one to make truly tiny low-accuracy, low-damage guns for use on tiny beam fighters (however with small fighters, BFC size always becomes a concern).

Additionally, the whole small Gauss thing could be tied into the planned (or at least that was something I remember discussing here) rework of Ground Support Fighters, in regards to the possible deprecation of Ground Support Pods and the use of existing weapons by fighters for both space fights and Ground Support missions. In this case, an anti-infantry fighter weapon would be needed, and a small, rapid-firing Gauss would be a perfect fit.

In regards to anti-ship capabilities of fractional damage weapons, I think it'd be nice to give them a chance to deal damage corresponding to their weapon strength (0.25 damage = 25% chance to inflict 1 damage, or if deemed too generous, use damage^2) rather than keep them completely ineffectual. The only reason I phased out my own sub-1 strength AMMs was my desire to use them in anti-ship support roles, especially by old ships relegated to garrison duty where they would mostly encounter Raiders who possess neither shields nor missiles. A weapon incapable of penetrating a single layer of armor still being able to inflict damage to it occasionally could easily be explained by metal fatigue, weak projectiles striking the same spot enough times to overwhelm its structural integrity.

Also, while you got me yapping about weapons, I think Particle Beams (and especially Lances) not fitting into Spinal mounts is a crime. A Spinal Lance is such a widespread sci-fi trope, it honestly feels weird not having access to them. Not to mention how this would fit the Lances' implementation (tremendous penetrative damage, agonizingly long reload) absolutely perfectly.
Posted by: Ush213
« on: June 25, 2025, 09:26:14 AM »

Hi Steve

Would there be much involved to have the trade goods movable by player ships as a purely role playing excerise. in the scenerio where you want to disable the civs.

In sorta the same question would it be possible to get the civs to move minerals around? even on a small scale. They could use the reserve limit on planets as there method to know when to stop.
Posted by: Ush213
« on: June 24, 2025, 10:18:49 AM »

Would there be any future plans for the game mechanics to allow fleets (with the right amount or a lot of prep) to be somewhat be self sufficient and allow for large scale invasion fleets without it being hard to manage . Things like mobile ship repair/ insystem mining and ammo and mech construction maybe some small scale army restoring (maybe simulating soldier injury recovery) etc. 

Ive been reading alot of horesy heresy lately and im itching to make a bunch of expedition fleets to send out to conqeur the Galaxy haha


You can do a lot of that already, with ships with repair bays and maintenance bays. As well as orbital mining ships.

The only thing missing is a mobile ordnance factory and a mobile MSP factory.

If factory ships did exist, I'd expect them to be huge, bigger than jump stabilisation ships for example. More than 100,000t for each factory modules alone, that sort of thing.

Ya im aware but its not just about adding the modules there would be other factors related to this style of gameplay. It would essentially be akin to a migrate fleet so other inbuilt game mechanics would probably have to be changed or be altered to support it. I cant think of everything now but I know there would defo be loads of stuff. 

The question is more for Steve in that would he like to or be open to stiring the gameplay this way in the future. Considering hes also a big fan of 40k I was hoping he would ha. (Although expedition fleets where technically 30k ha )


Posted by: Louella
« on: June 24, 2025, 09:59:08 AM »

Would there be any future plans for the game mechanics to allow fleets (with the right amount or a lot of prep) to be somewhat be self sufficient and allow for large scale invasion fleets without it being hard to manage . Things like mobile ship repair/ insystem mining and ammo and mech construction maybe some small scale army restoring (maybe simulating soldier injury recovery) etc. 

Ive been reading alot of horesy heresy lately and im itching to make a bunch of expedition fleets to send out to conqeur the Galaxy haha


You can do a lot of that already, with ships with repair bays and maintenance bays. As well as orbital mining ships.

The only thing missing is a mobile ordnance factory and a mobile MSP factory.

If factory ships did exist, I'd expect them to be huge, bigger than jump stabilisation ships for example. More than 100,000t for each factory modules alone, that sort of thing.