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Posted by: Michael Sandy
« on: Yesterday at 02:16:42 AM »

My own definition of "early game" is ships built before any opposition is encountered.  The only pre-contact space combat an empire may have had may have been piracy, insurrections, coups, civil wars and war games.  As such, they will be creatures of politics.

A Frigate may be essentially built around its spinal gun, intended to outrange any improvised weapons of an outpost, and efficiently reduce it, prompting it to surrender without a fight most of the time.

Once an enemy is actually encountered, those pre-contact ships get tossed into the maelstrom.

Another aspect of "early game" is a focus on individual ships, and not fleet missions.  In one game I had, my missile ships, about 12k tons, so similar size and role, had a single hangar on them for integral scouting fighters and/or sub 1000 ton boats.  The idea would be that the missile boats would upgrade their missiles and fire controls and thus stay in operation for a long time, with their scouting complement continually replaced and upgraded over time.  And then the entire class ran into a boojum and upgrading them became a moot point. ;)

For me, the size was determined by the size of a shipyard that could be retooled.  Or rather, one shipyard would stay in production while the other retooled, and then the first shipyard was retooled. But that was with a pre-Trans Newtonian start.  With a start that assumed significant production of pre-contact designs, you are not limited to the retooling issues of shipyards.

With pre-Contact designs, it is perfectly fine to design them with RP considerations more than anything else.  Assume the designers have no experience with ship warfare, no idea what technologies are coming out in the near future, and part of the fun is trying to get some use out of the white elephants while you frantically work to develop a doctrine.
Posted by: Froggiest1982
« on: July 25, 2025, 05:24:36 PM »

I would still keep both EM and TH passive sensor along with thevres 1 Active.

I can see you have only 1% IFR so probably tons of engineering modules, maybe you can get some space from there?

If you need more MSP you may be able to use MSP storage sections.

Should I replace some of engineering with more lasers?

You may need some sort of passive sensors unless you planning to keep the AS on all times which gives away your position from further away.

Also, if you are using this out of the DTS range and again you'll have to keep the AS on at all times.

Of course, more lasers are always appreciated.

I am still limiting my answers to basic operational systems as with weapons and such it depends on too many things. I am not a fan of the "perfect" design concepts, it flattens the experience IMO.
Posted by: Rtangaming
« on: July 25, 2025, 03:21:25 PM »

I would still keep both EM and TH passive sensor along with thevres 1 Active.

I can see you have only 1% IFR so probably tons of engineering modules, maybe you can get some space from there?

If you need more MSP you may be able to use MSP storage sections.

Should I replace some of engineering with more lasers?
Posted by: Froggiest1982
« on: July 25, 2025, 03:02:45 PM »

I would still keep both EM and TH passive sensor along with thevres 1 Active.

I can see you have only 1% IFR so probably tons of engineering modules, maybe you can get some space from there?

If you need more MSP you may be able to use MSP storage sections.
Posted by: Rtangaming
« on: July 25, 2025, 02:18:18 PM »

To start, thank you for all the help. I have tried to improve my ship based on the feedback although I am not sure if I have too much engine or if my lasers are too big. I usually just put the biggest one I've got.
Code: [Select]
Bruce - II class Frigate      10,000 tons       289 Crew       1,717.9 BP       TCS 200    TH 1,200    EM 1,380
6000 km/s      Armour 3-41       Shields 46-368       HTK 69      Sensors 6/8/0/0      DCR 8-8      PPV 34
Maint Life 2.59 Years     MSP 858    AFR 100%    IFR 1.4%    1YR 180    5YR 2,696    Max Repair 300 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

FF-ION-2085 (2)    Power 1200.0    Fuel Use 27.39%    Signature 600.00    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 454,700 Litres    Range 29.9 billion km (57 days at full power)
FF-Shield (1)     Recharge Time 368 seconds (0.1 per second)

FF-SPIN Laser (1)    Range 192,000km     TS: 6,000 km/s     Power 26-5     RM 50,000 km    ROF 30       
FF-Offensive Battery (3)    Range 192,000km     TS: 6,000 km/s     Power 16-5     RM 50,000 km    ROF 20       
FF-BFC-2085 (1)     Max Range: 192,000 km   TS: 6,000 km/s    ECCM-2     95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
FF-PP-2085-15.22 (2)     Total Power Output 30.4    Exp 5%

COM-RADAR-1HS-2085 (1)     GPS 21     Range 7.3m km    MCR 658.1k km    Resolution 1
COM-IR-2086 (1)     Sensitivity 6.0     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  19.4m km
COM-PAS-RADAR-2085 (1)     Sensitivity 8.0     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Warship for auto-assignment purposes
Posted by: Zap0
« on: July 24, 2025, 11:30:16 PM »


This is a high wisdom post and I have nothing to add.

Your ship is fine. The low-tech shields are inefficient, the single-shot rails and their BFCs have more efficient alternatives, but there's no glaring issues that will cripple the ship. For any other details, refer to the last post.
Posted by: nuclearslurpee
« on: July 24, 2025, 10:27:05 PM »

First answering the above dialogue:

10,000 round up always appreciated,

The first and best rule of Aurora.

Quote
I would say perhaps 24 months deployment is a bit too much and will get a bit more into that later on why, as if this is meant to be operating by itself then I am assuming there will not be any support ship such as tankers.

You have a 62 days range, however 24 months of deployment. Now it really depends on what is the purpose and missions you are expecting to carry, however, unless you are using this as a scout, survey, or monitoring, which entails lots of stationary duties, you may want to reduce this to anything between 6 to 9 months. I use a 1 to 2 ratio, so if this was me, a 62 days will be accounted for 124 deployment and therefore 4.1 months and I would probably go for 5 reducing tonnage that could be used elsewhere, maybe armour or better shields?

I do not think about fuel in this way. I think of fuel in terms of range, i.e., how far do I need to go to reach the area of operations? If I need to fly 10 b km to garrison a distant frontier and then 10 b km back to Sol when the deployment is over, then designing for 20 to 25 b km of total range makes sense. 30 days? 60 days? Who cares, it doesn't matter to the mission at all.

For deployment time, I always think of this as "time on station". I am confused why so many people think of it as time literally flying around. Most of the time, ships and fleets are stationary whether in port or on deployment as colony garrisons, JP monitors/defenses, escorts (spending much time in orbit loading/unloading), or consolidating positions between offensive maneuvers. I think the point is, it makes no sense to look at the ratio of fuel time and deployment time and say this is too much or that is too little without knowing what the mission is.

For me, my standard in the early game is usually 25 b km and 12 months deployment time. This is usually enough range to reach any system within several jumps and enough time to allow for annual rotations or sustained combat operations. For longer distances I expect tanker support.

Note also that deployment time increases the crew quarters requirement only as t^(1/3), so quite slowly. The difference between 6, 9, and 12 months is very small in tonnage in return for considerable flexibility.

Quote
Your biggest problem here is redundancy. What if a lucky strike takes down you unique generator? You will be pretty much defenseless. There is no right or wrong here, meaning you can have 2 or 3 or any other combinations.

I don't bother with partial reactors, I have never had a ship lose its reactor and still be in a fighting state.

I usually go for 2 or 4 reactors depending on ship size. I do try to build my beam ships tough enough to take some bad hits and keep fighting, so the redundancy benefits me on occasion here. Not nearly as important as redundancy in engines, for example, but it's a small enough tonnage difference to be worthwhile IMO.


Quote
You have no long range weapons so I don't see the need for the Active Sensors range to exceed the ones of the Passive. To be honest, the Res 1 at 11.1m will pretty much ensure that nothing will get under your nose without you being able to shoot at it.

For an "independent" ship, this depends on the mission. A beam ship still needs to be able to find its targets, after all. That said, I do agree that passive sensors probably have a better payoff than active sensors here.

---

For the ship itself:

Shields 20-500

This is quite bad. The rule of thumb for shields should be to have at least the same as one layer of armor, and if you cannot do this efficiently then your tech level is too low for shields. Note that at this tech level, it appears that you get 20 shields for 12 HS, or 1.66... HP/HS. This is a very low rate of HP gain compared to armor, which at this tech level I assume is giving at least 6 HP/HS if not more. So at this tech level it is probably best to use armor instead of shields.

Usually the transition point comes around Delta tech level, sometimes Gamma can be made to work.

Quote
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   

I suggest to use the Auxiliary Bridge here, it is only 50 tons (0.5% of total) and you get a second commander slot which will boost crew training and give your junior officers some command experience.

Quote
FF-NGC-2058-Drive (2)    Power 800.0    Fuel Use 68.36%    Signature 400.00    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 816,300 Litres    Range 21.5 billion km (62 days at full power)

This propulsion design is borderline, in my opinion. You have 80 HS of engines and about 16 HS of fuel, which is acceptable - a 3:1 ratio is "optimal" in terms of tonnage, however I usually prefer a much larger ratio of engines (10:1, 15:1, even 20:1) to reduce fuel consumption. Fuel logistics are usually a bigger limiter of how effective your fleet can be than whether you can mount 17 lasers or 18 per ship. In this case, I would suggest to stick with the 1.0x engine power multiplier unless you have strong reasons to do otherwise, as this is usually a good value to balance fuel use with speed and range requirements.

Quote
Spinal Laser-270k (1)    Range 128,000km     TS: 4,000 km/s     Power 9-2     RM 30,000 km    ROF 25       
RS Railgun (30)    Range 20,000km     TS: 4,000 km/s     Power 0.75-0.50     RM 20,000 km    ROF 10 
     

This is questionable to me. With only one main anti-ship weapon this ship is unlikely to hold up well in combat. I would suggest mounting more lasers for a frigate role. If this ship has a role as a fleet escort, however, then it is fine to have the spinal weapon as a backup capability.

Much worse, however, is the choice to use single-shot railguns. If you pay attention in the component design window, you will see that the single-shot version has about 1/3 the size of the four-shot version, so you are giving up about 25% of your potential firepower by this decision. Better to use full-size railguns unless you have a compelling reason to do otherwise (usually, this means beam fighters).

Quote
BFC-Railguns (2061) (1)     Max Range: 22,400 km   TS: 8,000 km/s    ECCM-0     55 11 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

This is a bad fire control design. The max range is too short. Point defense fire takes place at 10,000 km, so you have an accuracy multiplier due to range of only 55%. By doubling the range you could improve this to 78%, and personally I would use the 2x range multiplier to get out to 64k range (84%). Conversely, you get no benefit from the 8,000 km/s tracking speed, because your ship only moves at 4,000 km/s and railguns cannot be mounted in turrets, so they must use the greater of the ship's speed or the racial tracking speed tech level (which is probably 2000 km/s here) as their weapon tracking speed. So, in summary: cut the tracking speed in half, increase the BFC range, and this would do much better.

Quote
MIL-Radar-200t-2061-1HS (1)     GPS 64     Range 11.1m km    MCR 995k km    Resolution 1
MIL-Radar-200t-2061-100HS (1)     GPS 6400     Range 51.3m km    Resolution 100
MIL-PAS-Radar-200t-2061 (1)     Sensitivity 24.00     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  38.7m km
MIL-IR-200t-2061 (1)     Sensitivity 24.00     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  38.7m km

These sensors are probably okay in terms of size, but maybe bigger than they really need to be. For this type of design, I would probably use size-1 sensors for each slot here, expecting long-range detection to happen from other means (e.g., planetary DSTSs). However, this depends on the ships' intended mission.

Do note that in Aurora, space is too big to be effectively patrolled by ships, and (due to jump points) independent solo strikes deep behind enemy lines (such as commerce raids) are largely a fantasy unless the enemy is already beaten. So again, the mission of an "independent" ship needs to be defined realistically in terms of what ships in Aurora are capable of doing well. To me, this usually means garrison, monitoring, escort, or reconnaissance duties rather than raiding missions. Early on, colony garrison missions in particular will require a substantial commitment unless you are playing with a particular spoiler race turned off
Posted by: Jacen
« on: July 24, 2025, 06:39:20 PM »

I don't bother with partial reactors, I have never had a ship lose its reactor and still be in a fighting state. In any case unless you have also lost energy weapons losing any one of the small reactors will disable your weapons. Unless you have still got enough reactor capacity left to power everything. I don't think the wasted mass is worth the tiny chance of gaining a benefit.
As I understand it, having fewer reactors than required (ie, due to damage) just slows down the recharge rate proportionally, it won't disable weapons completely.
Posted by: Froggiest1982
« on: July 24, 2025, 06:35:50 PM »



Your biggest problem here is redundancy. What if a lucky strike takes down you unique generator? You will be pretty much defenseless. There is no right or wrong here, meaning you can have 2 or 3 or any other combinations. Again I can go with what I do, which is to ensure redundancy by having the necessary power required divided by 2 and install 3 reactors, so if one gets taken down there are the other 2. Just for saftey, I also install 2 auxiliary ones which are half of the value of the singles. I.E. I need 12 power, so I design a generator of 6 and one of 3, then I will install either one of the following combo: 2 generators of 6, 2 generators of 3 or 3 generators of 6 and depending on how much space I have I may chunk another couple of 3.
I am not commenting on the actual payload as I think this is always personal or RP driven and so on.

I don't bother with partial reactors, I have never had a ship lose its reactor and still be in a fighting state. In any case unless you have also lost energy weapons losing any one of the small reactors will disable your weapons. Unless you have still got enough reactor capacity left to power everything. I don't think the wasted mass is worth the tiny chance of gaining a benefit Having said that the amount of volume consumed by generators is not a large part of the ship so is not a big issue except on Beam fighters were every little bit counts.
Laziness wastes most of the efficiency I would theoretically get as I design only one or two types of reactor and so some of my smaller beam ships carry a reactor which is both a bit to big and also not redundant so the Battle ships are very efficient but the Attack cruisers with an every so sligly lesser armemant are inefficient.

I don't know, I have been playing for a long time and one thing is for sure, I am not going to have "a kind of cruiser lite capable of sustained independent operations" to venture into enemy territory without auxiliary generators and also fuel tanks. I have seen designs where 515,000 litres get done with 2 or 3 fuel modules and there you go, now your 60 days reach is a day, so I would always have at least the 500,000 litres split in 2 of 250,000 for instance plus the rounds up. But again, I think it is personal and there is no right or wrong in this cases, which is why I also avoided commenting on the payload, just going over the objective operational issues they may encounter moving forward.

For instance, I am not even sure such ship is worth the trouble having shields, but again, not an objective operational issue.
Posted by: Andrew
« on: July 24, 2025, 06:15:42 PM »



Your biggest problem here is redundancy. What if a lucky strike takes down you unique generator? You will be pretty much defenseless. There is no right or wrong here, meaning you can have 2 or 3 or any other combinations. Again I can go with what I do, which is to ensure redundancy by having the necessary power required divided by 2 and install 3 reactors, so if one gets taken down there are the other 2. Just for saftey, I also install 2 auxiliary ones which are half of the value of the singles. I.E. I need 12 power, so I design a generator of 6 and one of 3, then I will install either one of the following combo: 2 generators of 6, 2 generators of 3 or 3 generators of 6 and depending on how much space I have I may chunk another couple of 3.
I am not commenting on the actual payload as I think this is always personal or RP driven and so on.

I don't bother with partial reactors, I have never had a ship lose its reactor and still be in a fighting state. In any case unless you have also lost energy weapons losing any one of the small reactors will disable your weapons. Unless you have still got enough reactor capacity left to power everything. I don't think the wasted mass is worth the tiny chance of gaining a benefit Having said that the amount of volume consumed by generators is not a large part of the ship so is not a big issue except on Beam fighters were every little bit counts.
Laziness wastes most of the efficiency I would theoretically get as I design only one or two types of reactor and so some of my smaller beam ships carry a reactor which is both a bit to big and also not redundant so the Battle ships are very efficient but the Attack cruisers with an every so sligly lesser armemant are inefficient.
Posted by: Froggiest1982
« on: July 24, 2025, 05:52:12 PM »

Here my thoughts piece by piece:

Code: [Select]
Bruce class Frigate      10,000 tons       306 Crew       1,221.9 BP       TCS 200    TH 800    EM 600
4000 km/s      Armour 4-41       Shields 20-500       HTK 63      Sensors 24/24/0/0      DCR 18-18      PPV 35.25
Maint Life 3.44 Years     MSP 610    AFR 100%    IFR 1.4%    1YR 79    5YR 1,179    Max Repair 200 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Morale Check Required   

10,000 round up always appreciated, I would say perhaps 24 months deployment is a bit too much and will get a bit more into that later on why, as if this is meant to be operating by itself then I am assuming there will not be any support ship such as tankers.

Code: [Select]
FF-NGC-2058-Drive (2)    Power 800.0    Fuel Use 68.36%    Signature 400.00    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 816,300 Litres    Range 21.5 billion km (62 days at full power)
MIL-SHIELDS-600t-2061 (1)     Recharge Time 500 seconds (0 per second)

You have a 62 days range, however 24 months of deployment. Now it really depends on what is the purpose and missions you are expecting to carry, however, unless you are using this as a scout, survey, or monitoring, which entails lots of stationary duties, you may want to reduce this to anything between 6 to 9 months. I use a 1 to 2 ratio, so if this was me, a 62 days will be accounted for 124 deployment and therefore 4.1 months and I would probably go for 5 reducing tonnage that could be used elsewhere, maybe armour or better shields?

Code: [Select]
Spinal Laser-270k (1)    Range 128,000km     TS: 4,000 km/s     Power 9-2     RM 30,000 km    ROF 25       
RS Railgun (30)    Range 20,000km     TS: 4,000 km/s     Power 0.75-0.50     RM 20,000 km    ROF 10       
BFC-SPIN Laser (1)     Max Range: 128,000 km   TS: 4,000 km/s    ECCM-0     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 38 30 22
BFC-Railguns (2061) (1)     Max Range: 22,400 km   TS: 8,000 km/s    ECCM-0     55 11 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
MIL-PP-2061 (1)     Total Power Output 17.3    Exp 5%

Your biggest problem here is redundancy. What if a lucky strike takes down you unique generator? You will be pretty much defenseless. There is no right or wrong here, meaning you can have 2 or 3 or any other combinations. Again I can go with what I do, which is to ensure redundancy by having the necessary power required divided by 2 and install 3 reactors, so if one gets taken down there are the other 2. Just for saftey, I also install 2 auxiliary ones which are half of the value of the singles. I.E. I need 12 power, so I design a generator of 6 and one of 3, then I will install either one of the following combo: 2 generators of 6, 2 generators of 3 or 3 generators of 6 and depending on how much space I have I may chunk another couple of 3.
I am not commenting on the actual payload as I think this is always personal or RP driven and so on.

Code: [Select]
MIL-Radar-200t-2061-1HS (1)     GPS 64     Range 11.1m km    MCR 995k km    Resolution 1
MIL-Radar-200t-2061-100HS (1)     GPS 6400     Range 51.3m km    Resolution 100
MIL-PAS-Radar-200t-2061 (1)     Sensitivity 24.00     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  38.7m km
MIL-IR-200t-2061 (1)     Sensitivity 24.00     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  38.7m km

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Warship for auto-assignment purposes

You have no long range weapons so I don't see the need for the Active Sensors range to exceed the ones of the Passive. To be honest, the Res 1 at 11.1m will pretty much ensure that nothing will get under your nose without you being able to shoot at it.
Posted by: Rtangaming
« on: July 24, 2025, 10:06:22 AM »

I am unsure as to whether I have overdone it with the sensors but the general idea for this frigate was for it to be a kind of cruiser lite capable of sustained independent operations. Any advice would be appreciated.
Code: [Select]
Bruce class Frigate      10,000 tons       306 Crew       1,221.9 BP       TCS 200    TH 800    EM 600
4000 km/s      Armour 4-41       Shields 20-500       HTK 63      Sensors 24/24/0/0      DCR 18-18      PPV 35.25
Maint Life 3.44 Years     MSP 610    AFR 100%    IFR 1.4%    1YR 79    5YR 1,179    Max Repair 200 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Morale Check Required   

FF-NGC-2058-Drive (2)    Power 800.0    Fuel Use 68.36%    Signature 400.00    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 816,300 Litres    Range 21.5 billion km (62 days at full power)
MIL-SHIELDS-600t-2061 (1)     Recharge Time 500 seconds (0 per second)

Spinal Laser-270k (1)    Range 128,000km     TS: 4,000 km/s     Power 9-2     RM 30,000 km    ROF 25       
RS Railgun (30)    Range 20,000km     TS: 4,000 km/s     Power 0.75-0.50     RM 20,000 km    ROF 10       
BFC-SPIN Laser (1)     Max Range: 128,000 km   TS: 4,000 km/s    ECCM-0     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 38 30 22
BFC-Railguns (2061) (1)     Max Range: 22,400 km   TS: 8,000 km/s    ECCM-0     55 11 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
MIL-PP-2061 (1)     Total Power Output 17.3    Exp 5%

MIL-Radar-200t-2061-1HS (1)     GPS 64     Range 11.1m km    MCR 995k km    Resolution 1
MIL-Radar-200t-2061-100HS (1)     GPS 6400     Range 51.3m km    Resolution 100
MIL-PAS-Radar-200t-2061 (1)     Sensitivity 24.00     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  38.7m km
MIL-IR-200t-2061 (1)     Sensitivity 24.00     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  38.7m km

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Warship for auto-assignment purposes