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Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: April 02, 2010, 01:54:39 AM »

I looked into this. The problem is that the allocation of ECM for the missile should be capped at 1 MSP so that the max ECM level for the missile is equal to the max MIssile ECM tech level for the parent Empire. At the moment you can add more than 1 MSP which means you could end up with a higher ECM level than you should have. The 1 MSP cap has been added for v5.1. It isn't that major a problem though as large, slow-firing hard-to-hit missiles may not be any more effective than faster, smaller and more numerous conventional missiles.

Steve
Posted by: sloanjh
« on: April 01, 2010, 08:24:26 PM »

Quote from: "UnLimiTeD"
True.
Just wanted to know if it really is a bug.
Maybe, maybe not.  Steve might have had this in mind.  After all, that flight of F-15s weren't able to lock up that UFO over Montana at all 6 years ag.....errrr wait, I wasn't supposed to talk about that.  Ummmm hypothetically, a flight of F-15s might not be able to lock up on a UFO, if the UFO had advanced enough tech :-)
Quote
I mean, with ECM 5, if your enemy has the same tech level, you can basically just spend 3 MSP on them and they are unhitable until the enemy has ECCM6.
The main problem I see is that they don't need to be fast nor heavy hitting, they will always reach their target, so you can spend your entire resources on good sensors and Anti Missile tech.
I'll post it up in the bug board then.

The other nuance in other peoples' responses that you might not have picked up on is that Aurora is not just a game of designing nifty ultra-high-tech weapons (or ships, or fighters or ....), it's about building the industrial base, researching the technology, and managing the logistics chain.  Especially for missiles.  My reaction to your "how would you fight this" post was "I'd let you waste all your money building missiles that are 2-3 times as big and expensive as my missiles".  And 3MSP is a huge hit on a missile, since it comes out of the payload, not the missile.  By this I mean that if you don't throw armor, or sensors or ECM, or ... on them, then missiles scale exactly - you can make a missile twice as big, with twice the warhead, and twice the engines, twice the fuel, and twice the agility, and it will have exactly the same speed and hit probability as the original missile, but will do twice the damage.  So the size/expense of a missile will be proportional to the "payload" size (in this case the warhead).  So those 3MSP are coming out of the payload mass.  In your example, how many HS did you devote to warhead?  If it was 4, then you could build almost twice as many missiles without ECM for the same infrastructure cost, and their launchers would shoot twice as fast.  This is why a lot of us had a "ho-hum" reaction - you've gone way up there on the tech tree (much higher than you're ever likely to grow from a standard TN start), and even if what you've found isn't a bug, there are lots of counter-strategies that can be applied (like building a bunch of beam-armed ships that are just big balls of armor and letting you shoot yourself dry against them because you don't have the magazine space to support the missiles or the ordnance factories to build them).

John
Posted by: UnLimiTeD
« on: April 01, 2010, 07:29:30 PM »

True.
Just wanted to know if it really is a bug.
I mean, with ECM 5, if your enemy has the same tech level, you can basically just spend 3 MSP on them and they are unhitable until the enemy has ECCM6.
The main problem I see is that they don't need to be fast nor heavy hitting, they will always reach their target, so you can spend your entire resources on good sensors and Anti Missile tech.
I'll post it up in the bug board then.
Posted by: Andrew
« on: April 01, 2010, 05:51:02 PM »

Quote from: "UnLimiTeD"
Would it have made any difference?
Aside, they have 2 CIWS....
You may found a bug that needs fixing however I have yet to actually research technology anywhere close to that limit in play so I could care less for the implications to my games.
Second, the fighter squadrons and long range missiles will still kill the ships launching these (admittedly the long range missiles will have to  have the same ecm ) they are still a poor missile design except for exploiting a bug. Congrats.
With the bug I would agree that once you have more tech than I have ever seen missiles are invincible so I would probably end the game at that point, if I did not I would rely on ependable small ships , Gunboats and Fighters. Make use of stealth systems and small sizes to reduce detection range so the missiles cannot be fired, until late and make sure I use fire and forget missiles .
Posted by: UnLimiTeD
« on: April 01, 2010, 02:29:42 PM »

Would it have made any difference?
Aside, they have 2 CIWS....
Posted by: praguepride
« on: April 01, 2010, 12:32:48 PM »

Why didn't you equip them with gaus cannons for missile defense?
Posted by: UnLimiTeD
« on: April 01, 2010, 08:30:28 AM »

See earlier in the tread, the ECM in the description actually lacks a 0 at the end.
ECM 20 is actually Missile ECM 200, which gives firecontrols a range in the negatives.


I did another test to confirm, at maximum techlevel:

Code: [Select]
Agincourt class Cruiser    12500 tons     1200 Crew     25681.5 BP      TCS 250  TH 5000  EM 9000
20000 km/s     Armour 8-47     Shields 300-300     Sensors 75/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 102     PPV 46
Annual Failure Rate: 104%    IFR: 1.4%    Maint Capacity 15410 MSP    Max Repair 5250 MSP    Est Time: 1.91 Years
Magazine 816    

Photonic Drive E1 (10)    Power 500    Fuel Use 10%    Signature 500    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 120,000 Litres    Range 172.8 billion km   (100 days at full power)
Omega R300/15 Shields (20)   Total Fuel Cost  300 Litres per day

Triple 15cm C6.25 Far Gamma Ray Laser Turret (2x3)    Range 700,000km     TS: 111000 km/s     Power 18-19     RM 12    ROF 5        6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6
CIWS-1000 (2x20)    Range 1000 km     TS: 100000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
Fire Control S08 350-100000 (2)    Max Range: 700,000 km   TS: 100000 km/s     99 97 96 94 93 91 90 89 87 86
Vacuum Energy Power Plant Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 40    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Size 1 Missile Launcher (75% Reduction) (24)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC81-R1 (4)     Range 81.0m km    Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (816)  Speed: 250,000 km/s   End: 12m    Range: 180m km   WH: 3    Size: 1    TH: 10833 / 6500 / 3250

Active Search Sensor MR540-R20 (1)     GPS 7200     Range 540.0m km    Resolution 20
Active Search Sensor MR40-R1 (1)     GPS 540     Range 40.5m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH1-75 (1)     Sensitivity 75     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  75m km

Compact ECCM-10 (6)         ECM 90

Should be the nightmare of all Missileboats.

I fired upon them with these, again, maximum tech level:

Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 8 MSP  (0.4 HS)     Warhead: 90    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 60
Speed: 62500 km/s    Endurance: 60 minutes   Range: 225.0m km
ECM Level: 20
Cost Per Missile: 42.0833
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 3750%   3k km/s 1200%   5k km/s 750%   10k km/s 375%

CIWS give out an "Error in PointBlankPDFire"  Error 3265 was....

AMMs don't launch, and The Laser Turrets were able to score a single hit due to crew grade. (9% chance)

Excerpt of the combat log is attached.
Needless to say, it resulted in utter destruction of the target. Well, 20 missiles was probably overkill.
Posted by: Andrew
« on: April 01, 2010, 06:42:49 AM »

As I build most of my missiles with a 70+ million km range, I would expect to kill the missile launch platforms before they fire. Failing that if I have comparable technology the salvo's are going to be fairly small given the missile size and my antimissiles and Massed point blank defensive fire should just let me take minimal hits assuming I do not have an outnumbered fleet. You would be better of IMHO with less agility and more range or speed on an antishipping missile.
The warhead is also very big and I would probably have more speed or range and a smaller warhead.
If I specifically new my opponent would be using these missiles I would deploy a fleet of gunboats or fighters so the warhead was overkill, or arsenal ships which could launch a huge salvo before these missiles where in launch range as once their launching ship dies they are harmless
Posted by: Brian Neumann
« on: April 01, 2010, 06:21:34 AM »

That missile is actually going to be fairly easy to kill as long as you have matching speed for your counter missiles.  The ecm will reduce your missile fire control range by 20% if it is not countered by shipboard eccm.  This should still give you plenty of range to fire the counter missiles.

The bouy is just going to sit there and scan for you.  Probably not much you can do to prevent it from spotting you.  Your best chance would be a fighter strike with one fighter having a radar to spot it and several carrying two stage missiles.  The second stage being equipped with em sensors and fired from short range.  The first stage being a bus to get close from long range.

Brian
Posted by: UnLimiTeD
« on: March 31, 2010, 08:22:07 PM »

Well, I think for playing with 2 races directly against each other to test something, SM mode helps.
Mesons are quire the Shizzle.

Some ask for advice:
How would you actually fight the following two when used against you?
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 10 MSP  (0.5 HS)     Warhead: 80    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 43
Speed: 43200 km/s    Endurance: 19 minutes   Range: 50.4m km
ECM Level: 20
Cost Per Missile: 38.0171
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 1857.6%   3k km/s 602%   5k km/s 371.5%   10k km/s 185.8%
Materials Required:    10x Corbomite   20x Tritanium   15.0673x Gallicite   Fuel x1049.25

Buoy Size: 7.5 MSP  (0.375 HS)     Armour: 0
Reactor Endurance: 24 months
Active Sensor Strength: 20    Resolution: 10    Maximum Range: 2,000,000 km    
ECM Level: 20
Cost Per Buoy: 35.625
Materials Required:    10x Corbomite   4.8x Boronide   20x Uridium

These are NOT at maximum tech level, mind you.
Posted by: sloanjh
« on: March 31, 2010, 01:08:52 AM »

Quote from: "Andrew"
It sounds like the newly created task groups where in the location the ships are now in rather than with the fleet you thought they where with and when you moved the ships between TG they teleported to the location of the task group.

Yep - it sounds from your description like you might be running with SM mode on (which is usually a bad idea, 'cuz it lets you do all sorts of unnatural things).  In SM mode, you can transfer units between non-colocated TG, causing the ships to magically teleport to the new location.  You should usually use the "Split TG" button (on the 2nd tab of F12 screen) if you want to break a TG up into pieces.  I almost never use the "New TG" button, 'cuz it doesn't necessarily put the new TG at the location the ships you're interested in are at (I think it puts it at your home world).  As of recent versions, you can also make new TG using the fleet organization (4th) tab of the F12 screen.

John
Posted by: UnLimiTeD
« on: March 30, 2010, 06:09:52 PM »

I wonder what I would do if that happened in an RP campaign....
Posted by: Andrew
« on: March 30, 2010, 05:38:16 PM »

It sounds like the newly created task groups where in the location the ships are now in rather than with the fleet you thought they where with and when you moved the ships between TG they teleported to the location of the task group.
Posted by: UnLimiTeD
« on: March 30, 2010, 03:55:18 PM »

Will do, thx.

Edit:

So, I don't quite know if this is a bug or me failing, but I ordered 2 Task Groups of different player races to waypoints close to each other in the asteroid belt behind mars, assigned Fire controls...
Then I noticed I need them in different Task groups to be able to split them and let the Beam Warships Attack.
I made a bunch of new task groups for either side, and moved the ships inside.

Now side A, which I did second, is perfectly fine, everything is in place and awaiting battle.
In side B, however, only the Original Battle Task Group is in place, all new Task Groups have had their new inhabitants teleported back to Titan where the fleet originated.
The Active Sensor Display proofs they were indeed in the asteroid belt before, and now, only a single missile cruiser remains in combat range....

Edit2: Posted too early, side A got teleported back aside the main Missile Cruisers aswell.
I forwarded an hour, 30 seconds actually happened, and all ships back at earth show speeds of 342k+ kms on sensors, like they physically moved back on their own volition.
I believe if I forwarded only 5 seconds, it would show 6x that much.

Any experience with that kind of behavior ?
Posted by: Andrew
« on: March 30, 2010, 11:44:45 AM »

Quote from: "UnLimiTeD"
Just did a test at highest test level and noticed several things:


D) Are the missiles that come with a ship really "free"?

thanks for all the answers you've given me so far!
No, but
If you press the load ships button they are indeed free , but that is meant for startup so your starting ships have missiles. Otherwise ships will try to fill their magazines to the selected load out from what missiles you have on the planet they are built at.