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Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: January 16, 2011, 09:49:48 AM »

Quote from: Nabobalis on January 11, 2011, 03:37:18 PM
So is it impossible to play with the  "Enterprise" method of shipbuilding?

No, its quite possible but your multi-role ships are going to have be large in order to fulfil multiple roles effectively. Look at modern warships. They tend to have primary roles, such as air defence or ASW, and only larger ships are effective in several different roles

Steve
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: January 16, 2011, 09:46:45 AM »

Quote from: bobterrius on January 09, 2011, 05:36:06 PM
Also keep in mind that  your resolution 1 can detect an object of size 1 at 1.9 million kilometer.

But a size 5 missile is not a size 1 object (= 50 tonnes).

When you create your sensor you can see the range of detection for a missile size 6, size 8, and size 12 just below the range of detection for an object size 1.

Missile detection size is equal to 0.05 HS per point of missile size. So a size 10 missile is size 0.5 HS in ship terms, which would be detected at 25% of the max range of a sensor. However for active sensor purposes, nothing is smaller than 0.3 HS (detected at 9% of max sensor range) so missiles smaller than size 6 are treated as size 6 for active sensor detection. There are some lengthy posts on this in Mechanics but it was a while ago.

Steve
Posted by: UnLimiTeD
« on: January 16, 2011, 05:05:02 AM »

Auto-Fire is meant to target enemy ships, like a swarm of FACs.
Theres a tick box and a radio button, I think they do slightly different things.

For Missile Defense, set your Missile FCs to a 2v1 or 3v1 (Depending on your tech/hit rate) Area Defense, and your Beam FCs to Point defense at a range that sounds good to you.
Likely a pretty short range though, you wont get a second shot anyways.
Posted by: Lunaticus
« on: January 16, 2011, 04:08:10 AM »

Many thanks for all the advice and the very interesting comments on ship construction.  I am still quite new at ship design but am beginning to see there are really deep strategic choices to be made which sounds great. 
 
I tried the combat advice out and together with instantiating some technologies for testing purposes I managed now to set up missile defenses successfully as a test.
 In fact what I did wrong (in addition to just taking on a much too advanced opponent) was to
-> not properly set up the combat screen
-> not build at least one maximum range/size active sensor with resolution 1 to detect missiles as soon as possible
-> not do enough task force training
-> not setting up fleet initiative

The only thing still vexing me is the "auto-fire" option.  The ships (ship classes) where I now manually assing targets do nicely but the ships I set to auto-fire seem not to be doing much.  As I would prefer not to set an enemy missile salvo as target manually but have this done via auto-fire: Is there something to consider for auto-fire to be set up in a good way?

And then I will go back in time, restore my database and try to see if I can take on the enemy without resorting to SM mode. . .
Posted by: James Patten
« on: January 12, 2011, 06:29:02 AM »

Something to note with the "Star Trek" method: in Star Trek, they don't need to do gravitational surveys in order to find jump points to get out of the system - they just go to warp.

Secondly, I'm guessing the "Enterprise" type ships are primarily for first contact situations, and only surveys the M-class planets.  Behind the Enterprise there's probably a host of dedicated smaller survey ships which visit the other planets.  Yes, occasionally the Enterprise is also surveying gravitic anomalies.  However when Borg or Dominion enemies invade, the generalist ships end up as wrecks.  That's why DS 9 had the experimental weapon ship (can't think of the name right now).

So in Aurora terms - the Enterprise cruiser would probably jump in alone, look at the large planets, establish first contact, and leave; later a survey fleet comes to refine the surveys.  Or it might jump in with other, smaller ships and these smaller ships do the gravitic surveys.

Posted by: Erik L
« on: January 11, 2011, 10:50:38 PM »

Many many many years ago, I was playing the original Master of Orion with my roomate. He built his ships on the Star Trek philosophy (every ship can perform every role). I built my fleets around a naval doctrine (dedicated escorts, etc). He was unpleasantly surprised the first few times we engaged in battle. His ships were all around larger, but my smaller dedicated ships out-performed his. Of course, mine also died a bit easier, but he had a harder time getting them into a kill range.

*wanders off to go find some MOO disks*
Posted by: sloanjh
« on: January 11, 2011, 10:29:36 PM »

This issue in my opinion is less weapons specialization than survey/jump/combat specialization; sensors fall in between.  The problem is that a ship can be in only one place at a time; if it's doing a grav survey it can't be doing a geosurvey or acting as a jump bridge or participating in a defensive (or offensive) fleet.  So if you try to build an all-around ship that can fulfill all 4 of these roles, then 75% of the systems (and the associated engines and armor) are sitting idle at any time, which in turns results in a need for 4x of these all-purpose ships as would be needed for single-role ships.

For combat systems this isn't so bad, since there's not a huge difference between a ship with both offensive and anti-missiles (and/or even beams) and a TG of individual missile and beam ships.  In other words, you don't run into the "I need to be in different locations to fulfill my various roles" issue, since individual ships would still group together into a mixed TF.  There are still drawbacks: you can't detach escorts to form a screen (for greater anti-missile depth) and (more importantly) big ships require bigger SY, longer build times (although the build rate is higher) and (most important) bigger jump drives.

For sensors, the issue isn't needing to be in more than one place at a time to fulfill the various roles, but rather that every ship in a TF doesn't need to have a big honking active (or passive) search sensor; adding such sensors to each combatant in a TG takes away mass from the TG that could be used for weapons systems.  This is where the economic push for dedicated (and unarmed/lightly armored) scouts comes from.

John
Posted by: Starkiller
« on: January 11, 2011, 06:40:10 PM »

I'd put in a few more CONs than detectable at longer range. Many different weapons means more FireCons for
them as well. The more stuff a ship has on it, the slower it's speed gets. You need to keep adding engines and
fuel to bring up speed and range, which makes it even bigger. I like the dedicated ships because they are
generally smaller, faster, and easier to manage in battle. When dealing with fast ships like Precursers, you
REALLY want speed, and AMM capability. You know how many size 1 AMM launchers can go into a dedicated
9000 ton escort? Quite good protection for a small fleet. I DO occasionally like 'jack of all, Master of none' ships,
as they are good for operating either alone, or in small groups, like including one in a survey squadron, to
provide protection. But for large fleet formations, I tend to prefer the 'Master of One' style of ship. They just
seem to do better in big fights, in my experience. :)

Eric
Posted by: Brian Neumann
« on: January 11, 2011, 06:22:39 PM »

Quote from: Nabobalis on January 11, 2011, 05:25:20 PM
Well I've always played with dedicated ships but I want to try if a Star Trek approach to ships will work. Shields and beams and all round ships.
This can work out fairly well with a couple of important points.  You need to be faster than your targets as a missile armed fleet is going to get to pound you first, if they are faster then they can fall back, re-ammo and repeat.  Your shields need to be fairly good tech.  I wouldn't want to do this with less than epsilon level shields.  Your beam weapons need a solid proportion in turrets with fire control to handle the missiles.  If you use lasers then your medium sized (15-25cm) lasers will probably still be able to reach out to your maximum fire control range so you are not giving up the range.  The downside to them is they are not very powerfull at long range.  Mesons would work well, except against plasma torpedo's where they are almost useless.  CIWS systems are probably going to be a liability on most ships as the extra tonnage would be better spent on an extra 10-15cm weapons turret.  The individual ships loss of pd firepower is usually made up with the help the other ships give them with their extra turrets.  I would still want a few specialized anti-missile escorts with anti-missile missiles for large fleets to help thin out the larger missile attacks.  If you do this do not try to have your amm stop each salvo, instead try to thin them so your energy pd weapons can handle the bigger swarms of missiles.

Good luck

Brian
Posted by: Nabobalis
« on: January 11, 2011, 05:25:20 PM »

Quote from: Erik Luken on January 11, 2011, 04:36:38 PM
I wouldn't say impossible. Your ships are going to be larger overall than a comparably capable specific role fleet.

Take an dedicated escort at 6k tons. Figure half that is armor/shields/fuel. Now take a dedicated beam ship at 6k tons. Figure the same 50% for necessities. Add in a dedicated missile ship at 6k tons with the same 50%. To put all of these into one ship you are talking 9k tons, not counting armor, shields, fuel, engines, etc. Figure your "Enterprise" class will be around 15k tons when all is said and done. For the tonnage of one "Enterprise", you've got 2 and a half dedicated ships. Expand that to fleets. Assume a fleet/squadron of "Enterprise" has 10 ships. 150k tons. That's 25 dedicated ships. The loss of one of the all around ships is a greater blow to fleet offense/defense than to lose a dedicated ship.

Note - The numbers specified are made up and may have no basis in reality whatsoever.

Well I've always played with dedicated ships but I want to try if a Star Trek approach to ships will work. Shields and beams and all round ships.
Posted by: DatAlien
« on: January 11, 2011, 04:44:25 PM »

Dont forget that the Enterprises also have Survey Capabilitys

Pros of "Enterprise" Methode:

- You dont need that much good Commanders
- Bigger Ships have an higher building rate
- You need just one ship yard instead of three

Contras

- the enemy can detect you on longer range
Posted by: Erik L
« on: January 11, 2011, 04:36:38 PM »

Quote from: Nabobalis on January 11, 2011, 03:37:18 PM
So is it impossible to play with the  "Enterprise" method of shipbuilding?
I wouldn't say impossible. Your ships are going to be larger overall than a comparably capable specific role fleet.

Take an dedicated escort at 6k tons. Figure half that is armor/shields/fuel. Now take a dedicated beam ship at 6k tons. Figure the same 50% for necessities. Add in a dedicated missile ship at 6k tons with the same 50%. To put all of these into one ship you are talking 9k tons, not counting armor, shields, fuel, engines, etc. Figure your "Enterprise" class will be around 15k tons when all is said and done. For the tonnage of one "Enterprise", you've got 2 and a half dedicated ships. Expand that to fleets. Assume a fleet/squadron of "Enterprise" has 10 ships. 150k tons. That's 25 dedicated ships. The loss of one of the all around ships is a greater blow to fleet offense/defense than to lose a dedicated ship.

Note - The numbers specified are made up and may have no basis in reality whatsoever.
Posted by: Nabobalis
« on: January 11, 2011, 03:37:18 PM »

Quote from: Erik Luken on January 09, 2011, 10:03:11 PM
This is one thing Steve has accomplished really well with Aurora, the mixed-fleet concept as opposed to what I call the "Enterprise" method of shipbuilding, where all ships are jacks-of-all-trades.

So is it impossible to play with the  "Enterprise" method of shipbuilding?
Posted by: Brian Neumann
« on: January 10, 2011, 09:26:41 AM »

The Combat Control Window is F8.  If you have beam weapons they can be set to fire on either area, or final defense mode.  In area fire they will fire at any missiles in range on your normal firing time.  On final defense fire mode they will fire at any missiles which get to close to the ship.  How close is determined by the setting you use for the fire control (F8 screen).  A note however, your fire control for anything less than a range of 10,000km assumes it is 10,000km for your chance to hit.  This means that you need a decent chance to hit at 10,000km or your point defense is not going to be very effective.

Brian
Posted by: James Patten
« on: January 10, 2011, 06:27:10 AM »

In the Combat control window (sorry, I can't think of its real name or what F key you hit to get there), for your ships with AMMs, you may want to try selecting the 'Automated Fire' checkbox.  Make sure you've set the firecon to PD mode (2-to-1 or higher).  When that happens, I notice that as soon as there is an active sensor reading of the enemy missiles, the AMMs are launched.  That means they are launched 5 seconds before you can manually launch them.

The problem is, if you are seeing missiles at 130K km one increment, and the next increment they have hit your ships, that means those missiles are moving at at least 130K k/5s.  That's really fast.  Ideally your AMMs should be that fast or faster.  Don't forget on the F12 Fleet screen to look at the initiative number of your fleet, and raise it as high as you can.  It defaults to 100.