Aurora 4x

C# Aurora => C# Bureau of Design => Topic started by: Ehndras on May 06, 2020, 12:33:47 AM

Title: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Ehndras on May 06, 2020, 12:33:47 AM: PC empire = United American Alliance formed from the multi-national populations and (limited) industry that survived WWIII. Population 200 Mil (1/5 of N. & S. America's combined pop.)

<Reserved - Work In Progress> suggestions welcome

Currently testing ground units using approximate real-world US Army & Marine unit composition and element designations, with organizational management analogs for platoon/company/battalion/regiment/division.

(Realism limited by mechanics and OCD: rounded to 50/250/1,000/5,000/20,000, and things like signal/recon grouped into FFD.)

Basic elements are Infantry (Planetary), Marine (Space), Motorized (Light), Mechanized (Med), Armored (Heavy), Air (Fighters), and Static emplacements.

So far includes bunkers, mobile command centers, IFV's, artillery, STO, AA/STA, etc. [Not sure what to classify small/static autocannons. Edit: Maybe 40mm Mk-19 automatic grenade launchers, aka marine make boom-boom]

--- United American Space Marines ---

(Assume each team leader has an LMG with 3 Riflemen - others guard the craft, panic, or masturbate, often simultaneously.)

UAMC Space Marine Company (Small boarding party) = Size 248 - 2 Marine Lieutenants (HQ 250; 2 for redundancy); 10 Marine Machine Gunners (CAP); 36 Marine Riflemen (LPW).

[Other unit types seriously constrained by element size mechanics so I've gone minimal to preserve some sense of realism.]

--- United American Armed Forces ---

[WIP: The following include notes on real-world compositions. Finding the best ratio that fits with in-game size mechanics is a frustratingly-ongoing process. Help is welcome.]

(Riflemen split into LPW-Guardsmen and PW-Reservists. PWI-Marksmen grouped with L/MG, mortar, RPG, SAM as heavy/support units for the sake of my sanity. Just pretend PWI = DMR. Steve?)

Forward Operating Base (FOB - Division HQ+) = Up to heavy/super-heavy support elements, STO, static command bunker, long-distance bombardment, & all command tiers.

Fire Support Base (FSB - Regiment HQ) = Light/Medium static & mobile artillery/AA, signal/recon (FFD), mixed infantry, miscellaneous support & lower command tiers.

Infantry Company = Real-world standard is 150/50 riflemen to heavy weapon/maneuver support. [Extrapolate from 3-1 ratio or try division by platoon and upscale?]

Mechanized Infantry = 150 mixed infantry + 4 IFV's (motorized/mechanized element) + 2 IFV command elements (light/med mobile HQ)

Armored Company = 14 tanks (2 armored command elements + 3 tank platoons with 4 tanks each)

More to come.
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Ehndras on May 06, 2020, 12:38:15 AM: </Reserved>
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Ehndras on May 06, 2020, 12:38:26 AM: </Reserved>
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Gyrfalcon on May 06, 2020, 02:07:15 AM: While its a matter of flavor, I tend to use PWL to represent sidearms and less then lethal weapons. I'd make the Marine Riflemen with PW to represent standard firearms

The order in 'lightest' to 'heaviest' is PWL -> PW -> PWI
Title: Re: US Ground Forces Test Run
Post by: Ehndras on May 06, 2020, 02:49:15 AM: Quote from: Gyrfalcon on May 06, 2020, 02:07:15 AM
While its a matter of flavor, I tend to use PWL to represent sidearms and less then lethal weapons. I'd make the Marine Riflemen with PW to represent standard firearms

The order in 'lightest' to 'heaviest' is PWL -> PW -> PWI

Interesting!

I used PWL for marines because of the ridiculous size constrains of 100 and 500-man boarding units, where the 12-size MG wrecks any chance of matching Marine unit sizes down to the squad/fire team level. At least for the marines I wanted to get semi-realistic. Just updated the 500-man (500-size, really) group to have a Lieutenant and Captain. Same redundancy, but now we can laugh when the Lieutenant gets shot while retaining organizational command structure. Technically the command level is all wrong and I'm just approximating a compromise between total size and number of troops.

Real-world analog if 500 size = 500 men would be about 2-3 captains/companies, 12-13 lieutenants/platoons, 38 Sgts/Corporals/squads, and 125 fire team leaders in charge of 3 riflemen each + themselves. The officer-to-crayons ratio is too damn high.

If we're going by actual men, we've only got 10 boarding fire teams - assuming each team leader carries the MG because die xeno scum - an extra fire team with no MG covering the pod, the captain, and 2 riflemen to tail the lieutenant and make sure they know what they're doing.

The Army uses completely different weapon, armor schemes due to the vastly superior unit volume starting at regiments (5k size), and size we can 'splain the sizing as each static and mobile unit having a complement of men attached during operation, my take on it is: [National] Guardsmen with limited training use PWL, Reservists with better combat readiness and training with PW, and just threw in marksmen for PWI because its still a one-shot wonder albeit higher penetration.

In the end its all arbitrary, just having some fun here :)
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Ehndras on May 06, 2020, 02:59:36 AM: For example, I've got 2 marine templates atm. The one in OP, and:

Space Marine Tactical at exactly size 100 = 1 Lieutenant, 4 MGs, 14 Rifleman. In reality that's barely over a squad, but I'd hate to add a Marine Sergeant and watch them get shot. Ehh... Actually... Since Tacticals will be for anti-boarding defense... Alright, I'll throw in a Sarge for every Tactical squad. Sorry Lieutenant. Anyway, since the minimum INF-HQ size is 10 and that carries up to 2000 troops, these are just for flavor.
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Rye123 on May 06, 2020, 06:03:11 AM: Now that you bring up the difference between PWs, I'm thinking maybe PW could represent service-rifle equipped riflemen, while PWI could be used for automatic riflemen, leaving CAP for actual GPMG teams.

Then again I haven't played around that much with the actual mechanics so :/
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Pedroig on May 06, 2020, 06:15:53 AM: Quote from: Rye123 on May 06, 2020, 06:03:11 AM
Now that you bring up the difference between PWs, I'm thinking maybe PW could represent service-rifle equipped riflemen, while PWI could be used for automatic riflemen, leaving CAP for actual GPMG teams.

Then again I haven't played around that much with the actual mechanics so :/

I use PWI for both AR's and Grenadiers so a typical U.S. fireteam is 2 PW and 2 PWI.
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Garfunkel on May 06, 2020, 12:41:57 PM: The size difference between PW/I&L and then CAP and HCAP is quite significant. So CAP are not used in LMG or SAW role.

In my Aurora 1890 game:

PWL - batons, sabres, pistols, revolvers
PW - rifles and hand grenades
PWI - automatic rifles, grenade launchers, anti-tank rifles

CAP - medium machine guns, light mortars
HCAP - heavy machine guns, heavy mortars

LAV - small-caliber AT guns
MAV - large-caliber AT guns

LB - light field guns
MB - heavy field guns
LMB - howitzers

and so on.

Also, I would disagree with 500 tons = 500 men. I would say that 5 tons = 1 man so 500 tons = 100 men.
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Ehndras on May 06, 2020, 02:59:17 PM: Garfunkel: I like your 5 ton per man concept! Will definitely take that into account.

The trouble with PW vs CAP vs AC is that all PW are single-fire, while CAP are 6-shot-per-round, and AC are 3 round. With that in mind, it doesn't make much sense to use even PWI as MG analog since they lack the sustained fire necessary to provide suppression. If an MG goes "plink!" its not doing its job. Decided on MG - CAP specifically for the rate of fire :)

Also keep in mind the real-world Marines still use 40mm Mk-19 Automatic Grenade Launchers as crew-served anti-personnel systems, often classified as heavy machine guns. Actually, that would fit the HCAP fire rate far better than your stereotypical "I press this, bullets go WEEEEEE, bad guys hide!" MG.

Here, found a citation from retired Navy Seal Stewart Smith who apparently freelances these days.

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/marine-corps-enlisted-job-descriptions-3345316

"The Marine Corps Infantry Machine Gunner — MOS 0331 — handles large machine guns in direct combat. Also known as 31’s by their infantry platoon mates, these heavy machine gunners specifically handle the 7.62mm medium machine gun, the 50 caliber and 40mm heavy machine gun, plus their support vehicles."

Got a few solid templates in progress including a prototype Mechanized Infantry Regiment and a stab at a Fire Support Base or FOB, depending on how big it gets.

Just about done with the 2nd pass on naming and arming all available units up to super-heavy multi-role "Liberty" main battle tanks sporting simultaneous HCAP, Autocannons, and heavy AT; the "Unity" medium tank destroyer with medium AT and either HCAP/M-AC; the "Assassin" LR Mobile Artillery and static battery emplacement variant; and the Munin Motorized Recon (FFD on a light chassis). Also, for the fun of it, I've parked the Commander's Personal Vehicle (light HQ) in every major template for the sheer RP value. This is what I get for watching Van Damme movies as a kid, remember that one about escaping a Russian gulag by knocking out an officer and stealing the Commandant's rolls royce, or whatever it was?

Trying to give different element sizes the right flavor distinction. Infantry AA sounds weird since actual infantry would use MANPAD AAMs like the FM-92 Stinger, though douche-with-a-MANPAD and literal AA turret-mounted Technicals have been used among actors with limited armament availability. Nothing quite like stripping and effectively welding some old-school towed artillery or a light aa to the back of a truck, or just riding around with an RPG/TOW in the back seat.

The idea behind using technicals is to simulate grassroots Colonial insurgency against both Human and Xeno dominion. This IS America we're talking about. Personally my mother is Brazilian and dad second or third generation Dutch-American, Army DS, served in Vietnam. Between both countries, plenty

Sure, the military will get here when they get here, and police may occasionally put up a token resistance, but we all know a Texan with an RPG in his basement, or my crazy Floridian buddy who runs a citizen militia with enough guns to supply a battalion or three... Or guys like my older brother who put in their years then became a civilian LEO while weekending with the National Guard. Ain't much against heavily-armed aliens but we all make a choice and live with it. ;) LOL I've met too many crazy bastards like myself who would balls-deep an alien invasion for the sheer magnificence and nihilistic futility of it all. Adds a whole other dimension of RP for ground combat.

My main focus, as is yours, is to tell a great story. As in all my writing, the focus is on Human psychology, behavioral patterns, and a delicate balance between community and individual perspective.

Hopefully by the third pass I'll have a properly presentable ground force, but I'm sure a 4th pass will iron out the kinks in my terrible designs :)
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Garfunkel on May 06, 2020, 04:28:18 PM: I can't take credit for the 5-ton thing as that's the size of infantry with Personal Weapons and Steve used them as Imperial Guardsmen in his test campaign so that's why many players go with 5 ton = 1 soldier.

As to the rest, I think you're taking things too literally. A single combat round is 8 hours. That means that if you take the number of shots literally, your rifle can shoot once per 8 hours, and CAP still only shoots 6 times in 8 hours. Clearly, the number of shots isn't meant by Steve to be literal but rather figurative. CAP is also 12 tons whereas PW is 5 tons. Does that mean it's 2 men and a big gun or does it mean that it's a really big guy with a really big gun? Nothing actually defines them. Even the tonnage is just how much volume it takes to transport them.

So as long as your thing has an inner consistency to it and fits your story, the details outside of it don't really matter that much.
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Ehndras on May 06, 2020, 05:17:57 PM: Quote from: Garfunkel on May 06, 2020, 04:28:18 PM
I can't take credit for the 5-ton thing as that's the size of infantry with Personal Weapons and Steve used them as Imperial Guardsmen in his test campaign so that's why many players go with 5 ton = 1 soldier.

As to the rest, I think you're taking things too literally. A single combat round is 8 hours. That means that if you take the number of shots literally, your rifle can shoot once per 8 hours, and CAP still only shoots 6 times in 8 hours. Clearly, the number of shots isn't meant by Steve to be literal but rather figurative. CAP is also 12 tons whereas PW is 5 tons. Does that mean it's 2 men and a big gun or does it mean that it's a really big guy with a really big gun? Nothing actually defines them. Even the tonnage is just how much volume it takes to transport them.

So as long as your thing has an inner consistency to it and fits your story, the details outside of it don't really matter that much.

Gotcha. Didn't realize GC takes 8 hours per engagement. Yeah, that complicates things.
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Garfunkel on May 07, 2020, 07:56:43 PM: Except boarding combat happens in 30-second rounds, just so you know when it comes to setting up your Marine boarding parties!
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Ehndras on May 07, 2020, 08:01:41 PM: Quote from: Garfunkel on May 07, 2020, 07:56:43 PM
Except boarding combat happens in 30-second rounds, just so you know when it comes to setting up your Marine boarding parties!

Oh! Yeah, that was my mistake. Though ALL troop combat used 30 second intervals. Thanks mate
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Vasious on May 08, 2020, 12:23:40 AM: Quote from: Garfunkel on May 07, 2020, 07:56:43 PM
Except boarding combat happens in 30-second rounds, just so you know when it comes to setting up your Marine boarding parties!

Do we know how that effects supply
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Father Tim on May 08, 2020, 05:51:11 AM: Quote from: Vasious on May 08, 2020, 12:23:40 AM
Quote from: Garfunkel on May 07, 2020, 07:56:43 PM
Except boarding combat happens in 30-second rounds, just so you know when it comes to setting up your Marine boarding parties!

Do we know how that effects supply

Supplies are burned through (8*60*(60/30)) nine-hundred-and-sixty times faster. . . assuming Steve coded boarding combat to use supply rules at all. Or, more precisely, the combat rounds are 960 times faster. Boarding combat is probably over (one way or the other) in twenty rounds (ten minutes) max.
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Ehndras on May 08, 2020, 11:24:45 PM: All data on this post was lost during patching and should be assumed inaccurate.

Apparently I've been playing 1.5.1 and not 1.9.0. *facepalm*
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Vasious on May 08, 2020, 11:58:10 PM: Quote from: Father Tim on May 08, 2020, 05:51:11 AM
Quote from: Vasious on May 08, 2020, 12:23:40 AM
Quote from: Garfunkel on May 07, 2020, 07:56:43 PM
Except boarding combat happens in 30-second rounds, just so you know when it comes to setting up your Marine boarding parties!

Do we know how that effects supply

Supplies are burned through (8*60*(60/30)) nine-hundred-and-sixty times faster. . . assuming Steve coded boarding combat to use supply rules at all. Or, more precisely, the combat rounds are 960 times faster. Boarding combat is probably over (one way or the other) in twenty rounds (ten minutes) max.

That is what I meant to ask, do boarding parties need supplies or is it assumed as the combat is so much shorter it wont be an issue.

None of my test boardings ever ran out but don't think they were ever long enough
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Ehndras on May 09, 2020, 12:04:32 AM: Haven't seen anyone run out despite never bringing logistics infantry, so probably not necessary.
Title: Re: US Ground Force Test Run
Post by: Father Tim on May 09, 2020, 06:15:32 AM: Quote from: Vasious on May 08, 2020, 11:58:10 PM
That is what I meant to ask, do boarding parties need supplies or is it assumed as the combat is so much shorter it wont be an issue.

None of my test boardings ever ran out but don't think they were ever long enough

Ground units carry sufficent supply for ten rounds of combat -- whether those rounds are eight hours or ten minutes. Units that run out of supplies fight at one-quarter effectiveness.

And it looks like that at the moment units only draw new supplies from LOG units during combat, so they won't refill after the fighting stops.