Post by: Steve Walmsley on April 24, 2008, 08:29:17 AM
I will probably play with the figures but at the moment the chance of a civilian space centre being built is equal to 1% per annum per 100m population. The chance of a colony ship being built at that space centre is 15% per annum x level of CSC x (Pop/Empire Expansion Rating / 100). For geo ships it is 6% and grav survey is 4%.
Civilian ships are actually still part of your Empire but you have to detect them as if they were alien ships. However, they will start with transponders active so you can still see the transponder even if they are out of sensor range. Of course, that could really be an alien ship mimicking the transponder so don?t entirely trust transponder-only contacts
Alien civilian ships will not look any different to your sensors than alien government-owned ships. In other words, you can only tell a ship is a civilian ship if it belongs to your own race. This was one of the issues I had with creating the concept of civilian shipping. If I set them up as a separate race then each alien race would really be two different ones and would be detected as such. Which led to the question of how aliens would be able to tell which ships were government owned and which were civilian. I finally hit on the idea of creating them as a subset of a race so other races couldn?t tell which ships were civilian. This meant some changes to the detection code as you now have to detect some of your ?own? ships.
Because you do not have direct control over civilian shipping, the civilian fleets and ships will not appear in any of the windows relating to racial shipping, such as the fleet, class and ship windows. They will not appear on the system map unless you detect them and they will be missing from the various tree-view displays, such as on the galactic map or the battle control window. You cannot give them orders or move them between fleets.
The class of ship that civilians will build will be a current (i.e. non-obsolete) racial class. So if the civilian space centre builds a colony ship, it will select one of your current colony ship designs.
Colony ships will decide for themselves what orders they have. They will look to load colonists at populations of 20m or more and unload them at colonies of less than 20m within four transits. They will select their destination based on the number of transits and will select the smallest colony if two are equally distant. They are aware of any infrastructure limitations on colony size and will not take colonists to a colony if that would exceed the capacity of any infrastructure. The colonists will be deducted from your colonies and the colony ships will refuel using your stockpiles of fuel. To offset this, each civilian space centre will produce an amount of fuel equal to twenty refineries by using stocks of Sorium obtained through civilian sources.
Although you cannot detect the civilian ships without sensors, you will be notified if a civilian colony ship loads or unloads colonists at one of your colonies and you will be informed of its intended destination when it departs a colony, on the basis that the ship commander would file a flight plan.
I haven't coded it yet but I intend to add an option to "nationlise" civilian shipping. This will add all civilian shipping to your Empire but there will be a lower chance of civilian shipping appearing in the future. Every time you nationlise the chance will decrease further (I am thinking of halving the chance for each nationalisation).
Steve
Post by: Laurence on April 24, 2008, 09:14:05 AM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
They will look to load colonists at populations of 20m or more and unload them at colonies of less than 20m within four transits.
If I understand properly, this means that the civilians will not create new colonies, only work with ones I've already created?
So I wanted to encourage civilians to grow on a good colony world I can just create a colony on that body and drop some infrastructure (if needed). Then by the time I get around to manually colonizing the civilian ships may have already moved some people for me.
Post by: schroeam on April 26, 2008, 04:15:30 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
The civilian space centres are back in v3.1. This time though they will be building civilian shipping. So far I have implemented colony ships and will soon be adding civilian geo and grav survey ships and perhaps terraformers too. The chance of a civilian space centre appearing or increasing in size is dependent on the size of the population. Once the civilian space centre is in place, the chance of a ship being built is dependent on the level of the civilian space centre, the type of ship and the combined expansionism rating of the population species and the Empire-level government type.
As trade routes and freighter routes become established are we likely to see some independent entrepreneurs (pirates) from these civilian space centers? If they have access to the most up to date civilian technology, some of the obsolete military tech may be on the market as well...
Post by: Doug Olchefske on April 26, 2008, 05:30:58 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
The civilian space centres are back in v3.1.
Steve
Darn it Steve, you're Osbourne-ing yourself again.
Start new game or wait? Hmm...
Post by: Steve Walmsley on May 02, 2008, 03:53:06 AM
Quote from: "Laurence"
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"They will look to load colonists at populations of 20m or more and unload them at colonies of less than 20m within four transits.
If I understand properly, this means that the civilians will not create new colonies, only work with ones I've already created?
So I wanted to encourage civilians to grow on a good colony world I can just create a colony on that body and drop some infrastructure (if needed). Then by the time I get around to manually colonizing the civilian ships may have already moved some people for me.
Yes, that's the idea. I did consider letting colony ships setup new colonies as well but I thought they might pick some politically unfortunate locations, which is something the program can't figure out.
Steve
Post by: Steve Walmsley on May 02, 2008, 03:54:49 AM
Quote from: "adradjool"
As trade routes and freighter routes become established are we likely to see some independent entrepreneurs (pirates) from these civilian space centers? If they have access to the most up to date civilian technology, some of the obsolete military tech may be on the market as well...
This is something I may add later. Building the ships and giving them false transponder codes (which they switch off once out of range) is easy enough but pirating is more complex than the straightforward seek and destroy orders for precursors.
Steve
Post by: Bellerophon06 on May 02, 2008, 12:41:21 PM
It would also make the political situation interesting if they did decide to set up a colony in a place that the government would consider unfortunate if other NPC races were present.
Post by: Steve Walmsley on May 03, 2008, 07:36:06 AM
Quote from: "Bellerophon06"
I think it would be interesting to allow civilian ships to colonize other planets. It would give some people the opportunity to create a human-centric campaign and see what would happen if a civilian colony decided to break away from the existing empire. It could also be used to simulate citizens that do not want to be part of the empire in the first place, to get away from religious persecution, retain their culture, etc.
It would also make the political situation interesting if they did decide to set up a colony in a place that the government would consider unfortunate if other NPC races were present.
That's a good point. I'll guess I could place a simple restriction that they couldn't colonise a planet where a population of another race was present but otherwise they cold colonise anywhere. For now though it won't make much difference because they can only colonise ideal worlds or worlds with enough infrastructure. The former will no doubt be colonised anyway and the latter will require government support. What I will need to add is civilian freighters and civilian infrastructure construction.
Steve
Post by: IanD on August 15, 2008, 02:59:30 AM
Regards
Post by: SteveAlt on August 17, 2008, 01:10:18 PM
Quote from: "IanD"
Steve - The civ colony ships work as advertised, but the geo survey ships are not living up to expectations. What I mean by that is I designed two geo survey ships one with a jump engine and one without. So the civ space centre builds the one without jump engines and is therefore limited to systems with jump gates. Because all my systems with jump gates are fully surveyed it now spends its time going back and forth across a single gate. Can v3.2 choose to build the survey ship with jump engines should such a design be available?
That sounds like a sensible idea. From this and other posts it sounds like I need to revisit the non-colony civilian ships. As a starter, I will definitely add some SM way of deleting or transfering civilian ships.
Steve
Post by: Brian Neumann on August 17, 2008, 04:44:29 PM
Brian
Post by: Erik L on August 17, 2008, 06:15:58 PM
Quote from: "Brian"
How about a check box on the ship design screen. If it is checked then it is an eligible design for civilian use. Put in a routine that only makes this available if there are no military systems on the ship
Brian
Instead of this, possibly allow "civilian" ships to add obsolete tech. If current mil-spec is a 15cm 5 sec laser, then the 10 sec 12cm might be approved for civilian use.
Post by: Erik L on August 25, 2008, 10:28:52 PM
I've got Earth (2767.07m), Nueva Terra (21.7m), Framingham (17.5m), Somersville (14.88m), and Far Harbor (0m)
Earth is in Sol obviously, Nueva Terra, Framingham and Somersville are in Boston, and Far Harbor in Anchorage. Warp chain is:
Sol--Boston--Anchorage
The civs take from Earth and dump on NT. Then take from NT and drop on either Fram or Somer. They are completely ignoring FH. There are gates the entire chain, so there shouldn't be a reason I can see that they'd ignore the 0.0 Far Harbor for the .8 Somersville.
Post by: ZimRathbone on August 26, 2008, 07:24:53 AM
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
How does the AI determine where to drop off colonists for the civilian ships?
I've got Earth (2767.07m), Nueva Terra (21.7m), Framingham (17.5m), Somersville (14.88m), and Far Harbor (0m)
Earth is in Sol obviously, Nueva Terra, Framingham and Somersville are in Boston, and Far Harbor in Anchorage. Warp chain is:
Sol--Boston--Anchorage
The civs take from Earth and dump on NT. Then take from NT and drop on either Fram or Somer. They are completely ignoring FH. There are gates the entire chain, so there shouldn't be a reason I can see that they'd ignore the 0.0 Far Harbor for the .8 Somersville.
I believe that they dont pick up until youre 20m+ & they then chose the closest planet in jumps under 20m and then chose by habilitability. I suspect that what you may be seing is the pickup of colonists in NT gives options of Fram & Somerville before Far Harbour.
Mike
Post by: SteveAlt on August 26, 2008, 09:15:28 AM
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
How does the AI determine where to drop off colonists for the civilian ships?
I've got Earth (2767.07m), Nueva Terra (21.7m), Framingham (17.5m), Somersville (14.88m), and Far Harbor (0m)
Earth is in Sol obviously, Nueva Terra, Framingham and Somersville are in Boston, and Far Harbor in Anchorage. Warp chain is:
Sol--Boston--Anchorage
The civs take from Earth and dump on NT. Then take from NT and drop on either Fram or Somer. They are completely ignoring FH. There are gates the entire chain, so there shouldn't be a reason I can see that they'd ignore the 0.0 Far Harbor for the .8 Somersville.
The civilian ships pick up from any population over 20m and drop off at any population under 20m. They select the closest pop in terms of jumps.
I am considering letting the player specify which populations are able to supply colonists and which are able to receive colonists. This would allow more control over civilian colonization but my concern is that would remove too much of the "civilian" element and the colony ships would just go where the player told them. An in-between option might be to allow the player to specify the breakpoint (currently 20m) between colonists arriving and colonists leaving for his Empire as a whole.
Steve
Post by: Erik L on August 26, 2008, 09:18:14 AM
Quote from: "SteveAlt"
Quote from: "Erik Luken"How does the AI determine where to drop off colonists for the civilian ships?The civilian ships pick up from any population over 20m and drop off at any population under 20m. They select the closest pop in terms of jumps.
I've got Earth (2767.07m), Nueva Terra (21.7m), Framingham (17.5m), Somersville (14.88m), and Far Harbor (0m)
Earth is in Sol obviously, Nueva Terra, Framingham and Somersville are in Boston, and Far Harbor in Anchorage. Warp chain is:
Sol--Boston--Anchorage
The civs take from Earth and dump on NT. Then take from NT and drop on either Fram or Somer. They are completely ignoring FH. There are gates the entire chain, so there shouldn't be a reason I can see that they'd ignore the 0.0 Far Harbor for the .8 Somersville.
I am considering letting the player specify which populations are able to supply colonists and which are able to receive colonists. This would allow more control over civilian colonization but my concern is that would remove too much of the "civilian" element and the colony ships would just go where the player told them. An in-between option might be to allow the player to specify the breakpoint (currently 20m) between colonists arriving and colonists leaving for his Empire as a whole.
Steve
The thing I find most annoying is they will pick up some colonists from Earth, transport them to NT. Then since that puts them over 20m, pick up some colonists there (dropping it under 20m), and drop them off on Framingham (putting it over 20m). They then pick up from Framingham, and drop off on Nueva Terra.
Maybe put a check in there they cannot pick up from a planet they've dropped off at recently/last/within the last year.
Post by: SteveAlt on August 26, 2008, 09:25:56 AM
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
The thing I find most annoying is they will pick up some colonists from Earth, transport them to NT. Then since that puts them over 20m, pick up some colonists there (dropping it under 20m), and drop them off on Framingham (putting it over 20m). They then pick up from Framingham, and drop off on Nueva Terra.
Maybe put a check in there they cannot pick up from a planet they've dropped off at recently/last/within the last year.
Two other thoughts I have had since the last post are:
A) I should have a gap between the level at which they will drop off and the level at which they will pick up, to avoid the above problem.
B) Maybe I should add to the civ colony rules that each colony fleet will select a colony that is not the destination of any other colony ships from the same race, unless all of them currently have inbound colonists.
Steve
Post by: Erik L on August 26, 2008, 11:07:26 AM
Tempted to track it down and scan it more fully to see what else the civs are hiding from me.
Steve-
I've noticed that some of the civilian ships are using my designs. Others are not, as I've not designed a box launcher. Do the civs modify the base designs any? Based on tonnage, the ship with the box launcher looks a lot like one of my jump surveyors, though mine are unarmed.
Post by: Laurence on August 26, 2008, 05:44:37 PM
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
I do find it quite disturbing to find a civilian ship with 30(!) box launchers on it.
Tempted to track it down and scan it more fully to see what else the civs are hiding from me.
You've got rebels about.
Post by: Erik L on August 26, 2008, 07:56:31 PM
Quote from: "Laurence"
Quote from: "Erik Luken"I do find it quite disturbing to find a civilian ship with 30(!) box launchers on it.
Tempted to track it down and scan it more fully to see what else the civs are hiding from me.
You've got rebels about.
I'm not really too awfully worried. It's a size 1 launcher, and the smallest missile I've designed is a size 2 countermissile. Even if the size 2 is reduced, that reduction is coming off speed and agility, which will make it even easier to kill.
Once the first civ ship appeared, I stuck one of my PDCs in permanent active sensor mode, so each time they land at Earth, I get a scan on them.
Post by: SteveAlt on August 27, 2008, 09:01:31 AM
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
I do find it quite disturbing to find a civilian ship with 30(!) box launchers on it.
Tempted to track it down and scan it more fully to see what else the civs are hiding from me.
Steve-
I've noticed that some of the civilian ships are using my designs. Others are not, as I've not designed a box launcher. Do the civs modify the base designs any? Based on tonnage, the ship with the box launcher looks a lot like one of my jump surveyors, though mine are unarmed.
I have no idea what is happening here :)
Steve
Post by: SteveAlt on August 27, 2008, 09:11:41 AM
1) If possible, their colony ships will select the closest destination that is not the destination of any other civilian ship. If not possible, they will behave as they do now.
2) I have added civilian freighters. These will pick up infrastructure from a civilian space centre and deliver it to any hostile environment colony where the current infrastructure is less than 2000 (enough for a 10m pop on a col cost 2 world). For now, they will only do this for colonies you have created, even those with no existing pop or infrastructure. They won't create new colonies, although I may add that in the future. Like the colony ships, they will try to select destinations that are not already the destination of the other infrastructure freighters. The infrastructure itself is provided by the civilian space centre and doesn't cost wealth or resources.
3) I have removed civ grav survey ships for the moment.
4) Finally, civilian ships no longer require fuel. It is assumed the civilian space centre will provide the necessary fuel and it makes things much easier with a minimal reduction in gameplay
Steve
Post by: waresky on August 27, 2008, 12:18:17 PM
It's a great idea..
No Colony r immobilizing in populations,this r ur great "simulation".
Post by: waresky on August 27, 2008, 12:22:50 PM
Some Uthopic Leader send a "religious anarchist" at 1 jump only far from a vicious enemy:)..do u remember Space mobile Infantry film and book?
yeah..
Or some colonist vanguished on void space..lost in unknow systems,lack on fuel..and one century or another the "Central Governement" (you) found this wreckage in a space..
BUT..NOT build too much colony ships..i think r very expensive this ships..
..hard work and balanced..
Post by: Erik L on August 27, 2008, 01:24:51 PM
Code: [Select]
30x Size 1 Missile Launcher
Sensor S64/R80 GPS: 5120, Max Range 51.2m KM, Resolution 80
Tech Data:
Box Launcher .15 Size/ 15x (No Internal Reload)
Missile Launcher Reload Rate 1
Three ships have been seen, 2 of which have 56 Thermal signature.
Estimated Tonnage is 2550 and Estimated Speed is 1098.
I double-checked researched tech. I've not even gotten the box launcher. My next step is .25 Size /100x reload (plus internal Mg), and I want to say I've never designed a Resolution 80 scanner. Largest res I've done is 40.
Post by: Erik L on August 27, 2008, 01:31:31 PM
Post by: IanD on August 28, 2008, 03:12:13 AM
Quote
Finally, civilian ships no longer require fuel. It is assumed the civilian space centre will provide the necessary fuel and it makes things much easier with a minimal reduction in gameplay
Will this finally prevent them from running out of fuel? I find that when they start transporting colonists from one colony to another they "forget"
to return to the home system to refuel (fuel refineries not on my priority list for a new world). Perhaps you can code it that civilian centres can appear on other planets as well as only the home world? May be they can already but I have just the two on the home world.Regards
Post by: IanD on September 05, 2008, 02:52:27 AM
Quote
I haven't coded it yet but I intend to add an option to "nationalise" civilian shipping. This will add all civilian shipping to your Empire but there will be a lower chance of civilian shipping appearing in the future. Every time you nationalise the chance will decrease further (I am thinking of halving the chance for each nationalisation).
Is it possible to have a button to buy civilian shipping, not all of it but selected task groups and at a reasonable market cost? E.g. My empire is short of geo survey ships, the civs have built two or three which just hang around doing nothing and I would like to give them something constructive to do, but I am quite happy with the colony ships and don't want to interfere in their work. This would be much better than an all or nothing nationalisation button, which would reduce the chance of more free ships.
Regards
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 12, 2008, 07:20:20 AM
Quote from: "IanD"
QuoteFinally, civilian ships no longer require fuel. It is assumed the civilian space centre will provide the necessary fuel and it makes things much easier with a minimal reduction in gameplayWill this finally prevent them from running out of fuel? I find that when they start transporting colonists from one colony to another they "forget"
Yes, they will no longer run out of fuel in v3.2. Civilian centres can appear on any planet with a pop of at least 10 million. The larger the population, the more chance that one will appear. Its about 3% chance per year for a pop of 100m
Steve
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 12, 2008, 07:48:06 AM
Quote from: "IanD"
QuoteI haven't coded it yet but I intend to add an option to "nationalise" civilian shipping. This will add all civilian shipping to your Empire but there will be a lower chance of civilian shipping appearing in the future. Every time you nationalise the chance will decrease further (I am thinking of halving the chance for each nationalisation).Is it possible to have a button to buy civilian shipping, not all of it but selected task groups and at a reasonable market cost? E.g. My empire is short of geo survey ships, the civs have built two or three which just hang around doing nothing and I would like to give them something constructive to do, but I am quite happy with the colony ships and don't want to interfere in their work. This would be much better than an all or nothing nationalisation button, which would reduce the chance of more free ships.
That's a very good idea. The only slight problem I can see is that a player would buy up all the civilian ships and remove the civilian element of the game. Therefore, how about if the only civilian ships offered for sale are those that cannot find anything to do, like the geo survey ships you mentioned? This is on the basis that if the civilian owner cannot find any thing for his ships to do, he is much more likely to try and sell them.
Steve
Post by: IanD on September 16, 2008, 07:21:07 AM
Quote
That's a very good idea. The only slight problem I can see is that a player would buy up all the civilian ships and remove the civilian element of the game. Therefore, how about if the only civilian ships offered for sale are those that cannot find anything to do, like the geo survey ships you mentioned? This is on the basis that if the civilian owner cannot find any thing for his ships to do, he is much more likely to try and sell them.
Thats perfect, as there are not only the Geo survey ships but the occassional Colony ship which seems to get stuck. Personally I wouldn't buy up all the civilian shipping as it provides a way to populate my colonies without me having to programme in the journey. I can then concentrate on the more distant/marginal colonies.
Regards
Post by: MWadwell on September 16, 2008, 11:58:19 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "IanD"That's a very good idea. The only slight problem I can see is that a player would buy up all the civilian ships and remove the civilian element of the game. Therefore, how about if the only civilian ships offered for sale are those that cannot find anything to do, like the geo survey ships you mentioned? This is on the basis that if the civilian owner cannot find any thing for his ships to do, he is much more likely to try and sell them.QuoteI haven't coded it yet but I intend to add an option to "nationalise" civilian shipping. This will add all civilian shipping to your Empire but there will be a lower chance of civilian shipping appearing in the future. Every time you nationalise the chance will decrease further (I am thinking of halving the chance for each nationalisation).Is it possible to have a button to buy civilian shipping, not all of it but selected task groups and at a reasonable market cost? E.g. My empire is short of geo survey ships, the civs have built two or three which just hang around doing nothing and I would like to give them something constructive to do, but I am quite happy with the colony ships and don't want to interfere in their work. This would be much better than an all or nothing nationalisation button, which would reduce the chance of more free ships.
Steve
What about a sliding scale for costs - e.g. the cost to buy the last available ship is (prohibatively) higher than buying the first ship. I mean, it follows real life - the law of supply and demand and all....
Post by: schroeam on September 17, 2008, 12:03:23 PM
Post by: ShadoCat on September 17, 2008, 06:36:45 PM
Quote from: "adradjool"
What about being able to sell excess colony ships to civilian interests, or refit civilian ships to more up to date tech?
I don't see the point in that since one of the best things about civilian built ships is that they don't cost resources. The wealth that you would get seems a trifle compared to the irreplaceable resources that you spent to build it.
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 21, 2008, 04:15:13 AM
Quote from: "adradjool"
What about being able to sell excess colony ships to civilian interests, or refit civilian ships to more up to date tech?
I like both ideas, altough the latter is trickier to handle. I'll give it some thought.
Steve
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 21, 2008, 04:17:25 AM
Quote from: "ShadoCat"
Quote from: "adradjool"What about being able to sell excess colony ships to civilian interests, or refit civilian ships to more up to date tech?
I don't see the point in that since one of the best things about civilian built ships is that they don't cost resources. The wealth that you would get seems a trifle compared to the irreplaceable resources that you spent to build it.
You might sell it if the cost to upgrade isn't worth it and you don't want older ships. I see your point as even an old slow ship can be useful but you might also sell it to civilians to save fuel.
Steve
Post by: schroeam on September 21, 2008, 10:43:19 PM