Aurora 4x
C# Aurora => General Discussion => Topic started by: consiefe on May 07, 2020, 01:17:04 PM
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I had this precursor fight and their remains camped on their planet with hundreds of AMM launchers which fires 68k speed size 1s seeming indefinately. Although I abandoned that game as it was v1. 80 and starting anew, it still bothers me.
My fleet composed of powerful ships which had 40x twin gauss turrets 4/5s in total and 70ish AMM launchers with 84k speed size1s loaded. I neither was able to shoot down their missiles (out of god know how many I hit maybe 1/4 of them and got 250dmg per salvo). It seems really excessive. What is the most practical way to eradicate them? Was I basically outteched or even though my fleet seemed huge do I need moar of everything?
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I had this precursor fight and their remains camped on their planet with hundreds of AMM launchers which fires 68k speed size 1s seeming indefinately. Although I abandoned that game as it was v1. 80 and starting anew, it still bothers me.
My fleet composed of powerful ships which had 40x twin gauss turrets 4/5s in total and 70ish AMM launchers with 84k speed size1s loaded. I neither was able to shoot down their missiles (out of god know how many I hit maybe 1/4 of them and got 250dmg per salvo). It seems really excessive. What is the most practical way to eradicate them? Was I basically outteched or even though my fleet seemed huge do I need moar of everything?
Precursors defense bases have a tendency to do that. They're really bothersome. I have to ask, what was your tracking speed? Gauss should hit a LOT more often than that, maybe you had low tracking speed?
They will use up all missiles eventually. They tend to have thousands so, so it takes tens of waves. One possible way to do it, if you have shields, is go just about inside their range and stop. Let them shoot at you. Once your shields get dangerously low, move out of their range and let the shields regenerate. Rinse and repeat. You do need a defense that can thin out the incoming missiles considerably though
Or you can use armor, and go back to base to repair the armor from time to time. Once again, needs a decent defense first so your ships do not get destroyed instantly.
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I fought against a much smaller force of precursors earlier and was successful. Granted, they had only 4 ships which fired salvos of about 30 AMMs at my fleet of about 10 ships (Ion to Magneto Plasma tech level). Since AMMs are only dealing 1 damage, a good way to deal with them are shields. All of my cruisers had a strength ~35 shield and 2 gauss turrets. The gauss turrets take a chunk of the salvo, the shields take the first salvo entirely and then regenerate until the next one and the rest was absorbed by 5-6 layers of armor. Whenever my ships got severely damaged (which mostly happened to my destroyers without shields), I moved them out of firing range. The aliens change targets at random so there is always some downtime where your shields can recharge.
Of course if you have salvos of 250 AMMs, you need a lot more shields and PD turrets to pull this strategy off, but it should work the same way.
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Precursors defense bases have a tendency to do that. They're really bothersome. I have to ask, what was your tracking speed? Gauss should hit a LOT more often than that, maybe you had low tracking speed?
They will use up all missiles eventually. They tend to have thousands so, so it takes tens of waves. One possible way to do it, if you have shields, is go just about inside their range and stop. Let them shoot at you. Once your shields get dangerously low, move out of their range and let the shields regenerate. Rinse and repeat. You do need a defense that can thin out the incoming missiles considerably though
Or you can use armor, and go back to base to repair the armor from time to time. Once again, needs a decent defense first so your ships do not get destroyed instantly.
My tracking speed was 25k and I tried to go in and out of range. That was just endless and overwhelming. Do precursors produce missiles to replenish themselves?
I fought against a much smaller force of precursors earlier and was successful. Granted, they had only 4 ships which fired salvos of about 30 AMMs at my fleet of about 10 ships (Ion to Magneto Plasma tech level). Since AMMs are only dealing 1 damage, a good way to deal with them are shields. All of my cruisers had a strength ~35 shield and 2 gauss turrets. The gauss turrets take a chunk of the salvo, the shields take the first salvo entirely and then regenerate until the next one and the rest was absorbed by 5-6 layers of armor. Whenever my ships got severely damaged (which mostly happened to my destroyers without shields), I moved them out of firing range. The aliens change targets at random so there is always some downtime where your shields can recharge.
Of course if you have salvos of 250 AMMs, you need a lot more shields and PD turrets to pull this strategy off, but it should work the same way.
I managed the tore down lots of their ships when I got there because as you said they were in much smaller groups and I have tons of firepower and 100/300 shields on top of 10 layers of armor. They are no match for me if it wouldn't come down to AMMs. They have 40 ships on top of that planet not moving by inch.
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I have not yet really fought any large precursor force in c# Aurora, so my information may be outdated. I'm pretty sure they do not produce AMM. But...
In vb6 aurora precursor AMM bases often had 10000 AMM each. So yes, it's a lot to go through...
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I have not yet really fought any large precursor force in c# Aurora, so my information may be outdated. I'm pretty sure they do not produce AMM. But. . .
In vb6 aurora precursor AMM bases often had 10000 AMM each. So yes, it's a lot to go through. . .
Wow, I suspected the same thing. For the science, I let my ships to march on to see what's what and even my ships are very durable they couldn't close 2. 5m distance as each 5s 1000 amms flew at them. Mind bogglingly many AMMs they have. Also I specially designed 84k amms for them and all my salvos got successfully hit by their energy weapons, none of it got through. They seem invincible.
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What's the tonnage of their defending fleet? What's the tonnage of your fleet?
The lawful approach would be increasing your number of PD guns.
The chaos approach would be dancing around the edge of their AMM range, and bait their missiles :P
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What's the tonnage of their defending fleet? What's the tonnage of your fleet?
The lawful approach would be increasing your number of PD guns.
The chaos approach would be dancing around the edge of their AMM range, and bait their missiles :P
Their fleet has 10 20kt ships which have the S1 launchers. Others are just loaded with PDs I think(?) My fleet has 4x 35kt cruisers, 4x 28kt DDs, 2x 17kt Missile Frgts, 6x 10kt missile boats. CAs and DDs have 100 shield and 10, 7 armor respectively. and slowest ships are CA and Missile ships with 8500.
Also when I tried bait missiles around range first time it worked flawlessly but I got bored and pulled back. The second time I couldn't manage to pick the spot so they hit me everytime.
Damn spoilers just had their fun with us! :))
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I vote shields. Shields are really good at massed low damage stuff. I think the AI tends to target the biggest ship, so try and build a bunker buster big heavily shielded ship. Don't know what tech you were but around magneto plasma you can get 500 shields pretty easily.
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Do precursors produce missiles to replenish themselves?
In VB Aurora they did not, but in C# Aurora they will (eventually -- it's probably not implemented yet).
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The lawful approach would be increasing your number of PD guns.
The chaos approach would be dancing around the edge of their AMM range, and bait their missiles :P
And the evil approach is to build ships that are cheaper than the missiles needed to destroy them, and simply absorb the Precursors' fire.
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And the evil approach is to build ships that are cheaper than the missiles needed to destroy them, and simply absorb the Precursors' fire.
Behold the migthy :
(https://i.ibb.co/XWZPVR6/Capture.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p1vTnFN)
Has 7500 point of armor
But at this point it's more abuse than real strategy
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My solution to PD heavy spoilers went like this:
(https://puu.sh/FGshu.png)
Sure, all told they shot down maybe 600-700 missiles but they can only shoot down so many at one time.
Also, shields can help if you want to spend time wasting the missiles. I played a fun game with them where my heavier shielded ships got close, ate a couple of hundred amms each (depending how they decided to target) then retreated out of range to regenerate.
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Hmm, at this stage I wonder which approach is cheeper. FatherTim, the final dmg on me (after I shot down maybe 1/3) is 230ish. Doesn't throwing ships at them cost a fortune? I really need to fiddle with design.
The situation is in my new v1.95 game I have very poor systems so far. 20 of them surveyed and very little minerals. Aaand again in of the three jump away systems there are my dear old friends. I only lost a survey ship and got away immediately. Now designed 58k s1 missiles with 3.8m range to test their PDs and more agile 40k s1s in hopes maybe I can shoot down some missiles. I beelined for PD tech and got quad RoF5 vel50k tracking 25k gauss turrets.
Thinking of composing 8x missile boats with 20launchers and again 8x cheap pd ships along with 4 shielded frigates and 2 destroyers. At this stage I have little hope guys. To saturate their pds, I feel I need like 10.000 missiles and it seems my economy will fall apart.
Edit: grammar
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It is just weight of volume... you simply have to bring a larger fleet to do the job.
Never ever use AMM to intercept enemy AMM unless you are seriously out teching them, but then your PD should be even more powerful.
A combination of PD, shields and armour should be sufficient to weather the AMM spam until you get really close. Once you are close you fire all your close range torpeoes and engage in beam combat and obliterate them.
Of they have 200.000 tons of shipping you bring 400.00 ton... it is that simple really.
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It is just weight of volume... you simply have to bring a larger fleet to do the job.
Never ever use AMM to intercept enemy AMM unless you are seriously out teching them, but then your PD should be even more powerful.
A combination of PD, shields and armour should be sufficient to weather the AMM spam until you get really close. Once you are close you fire all your close range torpeoes and engage in beam combat and obliterate them.
Of they have 200.000 tons of shipping you bring 400.00 ton... it is that simple really.
Is it bigger tonnage as total? I mean lots of smalls or a few giants? And close range torpedos are interesting? How does it effect though? Is it for keeping busy of their beams preventing them return fire or at close range can even they get through the PD defence? I am trying to utilize beam tracking vs missile but I don't know how much tracking speed do I need to shoot down a big chunk of their AMMs.
And lastly does my above plan have any chance to do the job?
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Hmm, at this stage I wonder which approach is cheeper. FatherTim, the final dmg on me (after I shot down maybe 1/3) is 230ish. Doesn't throwing ships at them cost a fortune? I really need to fiddle with design.
Depends how you define a fortune. At one end of the scale you could have a shield large enough to absorb all the incoming damage, and it costs nothing. At the other end, you can spend the cost of twenty cruisers on AMMs and take no damage. The 'ball of armour and guns for point defense' is somewhere in the middle.
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Hmm, at this stage I wonder which approach is cheeper. FatherTim, the final dmg on me (after I shot down maybe 1/3) is 230ish. Doesn't throwing ships at them cost a fortune? I really need to fiddle with design.
Depends how you define a fortune. At one end of the scale you could have a shield large enough to absorb all the incoming damage, and it costs nothing. At the other end, you can spend the cost of twenty cruisers on AMMs and take no damage. The 'ball of armour and guns for point defense' is somewhere in the middle.
To close the distance in 5s intervals I have to soak up thousands of dmg. Maybe I need 10k shields. As Jorgen_CAB said I also cannot trust AMMs. I think the most feasible way is the ball of armor and lots of I mean lots of PDs. After that point maybe if I get close I also use those hundreds of gauss turrets to shred them.
By the way it really is a good brain storming, thank you all for the ideas.
Edit: Grammar
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Shield regeneration is a thing too - if that is high enough and there aren't too many missiles hitting you each 5 seconds, it's feasible to just push through the barrage that way.
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If you yourself have AMMs it could also be worthwhile to shoot them against the enemy ships to have them expend their AMMs on yours.
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It is just weight of volume... you simply have to bring a larger fleet to do the job.
Never ever use AMM to intercept enemy AMM unless you are seriously out teching them, but then your PD should be even more powerful.
A combination of PD, shields and armour should be sufficient to weather the AMM spam until you get really close. Once you are close you fire all your close range torpeoes and engage in beam combat and obliterate them.
Of they have 200.000 tons of shipping you bring 400.00 ton... it is that simple really.
Is it bigger tonnage as total? I mean lots of smalls or a few giants? And close range torpedos are interesting? How does it effect though? Is it for keeping busy of their beams preventing them return fire or at close range can even they get through the PD defence? I am trying to utilize beam tracking vs missile but I don't know how much tracking speed do I need to shoot down a big chunk of their AMMs.
And lastly does my above plan have any chance to do the job?
Regarding ship size there are no boundaries... the larger the design the more defenses you can concentrate in one package. They are very research intensive and you can only afford that if you have a good industry to support it. But it will save resource in the end when you go on the offensive.
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Wow, thank you all. This time they had only 3 ships and a STO. I went with 1x CC with 10 fighters, 2x 24k DDs, 4x 15k FFs, 10x PD 6k CTs with mini gauss turrets mostly. Perfected the missile phase. STO fire took out one of my DDs with an unfortunate shot. Lost all my fighters. 4 CTs out by engine shots.
In the end only ground forces remained. I never researched it and truly have no experience or knowledge. I designed some mixed divisions and attacked them. They steamrolled us as expected and all my ships in orbit surrendered! I was shocked. Thankfully I saved the game before the experience. :)) Eh, can you give some advice on proper invading forces? ;D
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one thing you can also do is get AMM that outranges them, or a slightly bigger, cheap Anti-Ship Missile, and throw a couple of thousands of them at the enemy. big ball of size1/size 2 box launchers, some 5 million km range, and some hard to hit missiles should do the trick. if everything goes right, they either waste 3 times as many missiles as you do, or eventually get their PD overwhelmed, and start losing ships. never quite faced a AMM storm quite that violent though, not on C#.
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one thing you can also do is get AMM that outranges them, or a slightly bigger, cheap Anti-Ship Missile, and throw a couple of thousands of them at the enemy. big ball of size1/size 2 box launchers, some 5 million km range, and some hard to hit missiles should do the trick. if everything goes right, they either waste 3 times as many missiles as you do, or eventually get their PD overwhelmed, and start losing ships. never quite faced a AMM storm quite that violent though, not on C#.
You all should have seen the amount of AMMs I faced in previous game, v1.80. That was gigantic. I tried outranging AMMs with 84k but I suppose I couldn't saturate enough. There was lots of ships though, 30+. So I think either I should have been much more advanced or wealthy.
This time to my surprise things were really calm but I feel I've lost too many ships. I don't know what systems were on those ships or how powerful that STO was. But in ground combat, once more we got the bitter treatment. I have to conquer this spoilers, it's vengance now! :) What should I expect to find on that planet and does this particular race ever venture out from their system?
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you need to make sure your ships aren't doing point defense when trying to counter AMM with AMM though, you might send AMM at theirs, defeating the whole purpose
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Armoured missiles were pretty good for this; too bad they were wildly overpowered in most other uses.
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in old vb6 aurora I had difficult fights with invaders in sol system
their missile tech was beyond my capabilities
I used commercials full of armor and ciws to soak damage as an opening in many won battles
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in old vb6 aurora I had difficult fights with invaders in sol system
their missile tech was beyond my capabilities
I used commercials full of armor and ciws to soak damage as an opening in many won battles
Wow, that's a good strategy.
Armoured missiles were pretty goood for this; too bad they were wildly overpowered in most other uses.
I think we don't (and I think we shouldn't) have armored missiles in C#, right?
Here is the story. We beat them since they had too few ships and I read GC and set up an army as good as I can. 150k 3divisions lost to their 16k, I think becuse of their OP mechs. They decreased to 7.5k. A second geneticly modified army did the trick, I lost 30k but beat them.
Now Xeno and Cons teams recovering ruins. 1/10 of them recovered to present day and it was 20m fuel, 100 Inf, 1 FC, 1 CF. Still 66 Alien Inst. are waiting to be recovered. Xeno teams found that they have a name which now can't remember but still not their race. Since they had no lifepods I assume they were not proper NPRs though.
I still get lots of increment adjusments but no contacts anywhere even though I searched a little. Maybe some commercial leftovers but they seem to trying to fire at something. It could also be two AIs fighting, it remains to be seen.
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If you still see short increments after battle check your fire controls, maybe you forgot to turn them off.
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If you still see short increments after battle check your fire controls, maybe you forgot to turn them off.
No, no they are proper adjusments becuse I turned all my FCs off and lots of time passed. I get many normal increments but now and then they start and take 5-10 times to go away.
But thanks for the heads up.
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Now Xeno and Cons teams recovering ruins. 1/10 of them recovered to present day and it was 20m fuel, 100 Inf, 1 FC, 1 CF. Still 66 Alien Inst. are waiting to be recovered. Xeno teams found that they have a name which now can't remember but still not their race. Since they had no lifepods I assume they were not proper NPRs though.
one way to distinguish between spoilers and NPRs is that. also, on VB6 it was also possible to distinguish them during battle, Precursors never streamed anything, Swarm stream fluid (and that is awesome), and invaders stream atmosphere when you breach the hull, like the rest of us.
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The short answer to the AMM barrage is "More PD Ships"
in Aurora, Missiles barrages tend to be either overwhelming or completely ineffectual. Since they run out, and can be completely neutralized, always bring enough PD to neutralize them.
My strategy in my no-missile games is 50% by tonnage dedicated PD ships in my fleet. If the enemy is bringing missiles to the fight, I'm happy. It means that I only need a few beam ships to mop up after they waste their barrages. With the change to still be able to shoot down missiles which can cross the distance in less than 5s, and the change to fix missile tracking bonuses I can choose to either wait at max range to give my PD the best chance to hit (if they're using more than I think I can handle) or close in and kill them before they use them all (if I know I can take the salvos).
If they are beam heavy and I didn't tailor my fleet due to proper scouting (like a first encounter with an NPR) then I will either need to retreat, or take advantage of point blank gauss spam, which is highly effective, so long as my ships are faster than theirs.
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The short answer to the AMM barrage is "More PD Ships"
in Aurora, Missiles barrages tend to be either overwhelming or completely ineffectual. Since they run out, and can be completely neutralized, always bring enough PD to neutralize them.
My strategy in my no-missile games is 50% by tonnage dedicated PD ships in my fleet. If the enemy is bringing missiles to the fight, I'm happy. It means that I only need a few beam ships to mop up after they waste their barrages. With the change to still be able to shoot down missiles which can cross the distance in less than 5s, and the change to fix missile tracking bonuses I can choose to either wait at max range to give my PD the best chance to hit (if they're using more than I think I can handle) or close in and kill them before they use them all (if I know I can take the salvos).
If they are beam heavy and I didn't tailor my fleet due to proper scouting (like a first encounter with an NPR) then I will either need to retreat, or take advantage of point blank gauss spam, which is highly effective, so long as my ships are faster than theirs.
Wow, this is exactly my take on the subject after these recent experiences. Missiles can be completely trivialized by enough PD ships eventhough they seem impossible to overcome at first. So as you mentioned no missile game, I was also thinking missiles aren't necessary after all. The bit of information I need on the matter is, how much saturation we need to make AI hit by missiles. If AI brings as many PDs as player than there is no point bothering with missiles.
For gauss turrets, I was literally thinking about the damage before I read your post. How devastating especially in numbers, RoF 5 Gauss Quad turret can be. 20 damage per turret and if you stack low accuracy light turrets potential damage is overwhelming. You need durable ships though since you really need to get close.