Post by: Buaman22 on August 07, 2008, 01:05:49 PM
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Zanabazar class Strike Cruiser 7600 tons 773 Crew 1096.2 BP TCS 38 TH 1020 EM 0
6710 km/s Armour 3-34 Shields 0-0 Sensors 15/15/0/0 Damage Control Rating 4 PPV 14
Annual Failure Rate: 115% IFR: 1.6% Maintenance Capacity 361 MSP
Ion Engine (17) Power 60 Efficiency 1.00 Signature 60 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres Range 47.4 billion km (81 days at full power)
Particle Torpedo Launcher (2) Range 200,000km TS: 6710 km/s Power 10-4 ROF 15 4 4 4 4 0 0 0 0 0 0
Torpedo Fire Control (1) Max Range: 256,000 km TS: 3200 km/s 51 39 26 14 1 0 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor (2) Total Power Output 9 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Thermal Sensor TH15 (1) Sensitivity 15 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 15m km
Electromagnetic Sensor EM15 (1) Sensitivity 15 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 15m km
Cloaking Device: Class cross-section reduced to 25% of normalThis ship kinda follows a 'submarine'/torpedo boat type of ship design. Since the Brits have the range advantage a Mongol ship has to be either faster, stealthier, or in this case, try to be both. I get the feeling I fail on both accounts w/ this design, though her Targeting Cross-Section is pretty small, at least compared to the Royal Sovereign, but it doesn't even try to hide.
As I wrote that out I kinda rethought the whole idea and came up with a more 'submarine' style vessel.
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Mughal class Scout Cruiser 4400 tons 471 Crew 691 BP TCS 22 TH 360 EM 0
4090 km/s Armour 3-23 Shields 0-0 Sensors 15/15/0/0 Damage Control Rating 2 PPV 14
Annual Failure Rate: 77% IFR: 1.1% Maintenance Capacity 196 MSP
Ion Engine (6) Power 60 Efficiency 1.00 Signature 60 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres Range 40.9 billion km (115 days at full power)
Particle Torpedo Launcher (2) Range 200,000km TS: 4090 km/s Power 10-4 ROF 15 4 4 4 4 0 0 0 0 0 0
Torpedo Fire Control (1) Max Range: 256,000 km TS: 3200 km/s 51 39 26 14 1 0 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor (2) Total Power Output 9 Armour 0 Exp 5%
FA Active Search Sensor (1) GPS 640 Range 6.4m km Resolution 40
Thermal Sensor TH15 (1) Sensitivity 15 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 15m km
Electromagnetic Sensor EM15 (1) Sensitivity 15 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 15m km
Cloaking Device: Class cross-section reduced to 25% of normalThe Mughal is a lot slower, though still marginally quicker than the British ships and a lot stealthier with a TCS of 22 and a TH of 360.
I guess the big question is, how close can one of these suckers get to a British fleet before it's spotted, how close can it get before the Brits can start hitting it, and how close does it need to be before it can start hitting them? Oh, and can a ship run at less than full power to decrease its thermal signature?
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Post by: Erik L on August 07, 2008, 01:32:08 PM
Quote from: "Buaman22"
Ok, I'm still trying to get used to the mechanics of the game, so point out the obvious flaws that I'm not picking upNo active sensors and no shields. Your fire control is not quite up to the speed it should be. Ideally, you'd want to have it close to 6700 in this case.Code: [Select]Zanabazar class Strike Cruiser 7600 tons 773 Crew 1096.2 BP TCS 38 TH 1020 EM 0
6710 km/s Armour 3-34 Shields 0-0 Sensors 15/15/0/0 Damage Control Rating 4 PPV 14
Annual Failure Rate: 115% IFR: 1.6% Maintenance Capacity 361 MSP
Ion Engine (17) Power 60 Efficiency 1.00 Signature 60 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres Range 47.4 billion km (81 days at full power)
Particle Torpedo Launcher (2) Range 200,000km TS: 6710 km/s Power 10-4 ROF 15 4 4 4 4 0 0 0 0 0 0
Torpedo Fire Control (1) Max Range: 256,000 km TS: 3200 km/s 51 39 26 14 1 0 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor (2) Total Power Output 9 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Thermal Sensor TH15 (1) Sensitivity 15 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 15m km
Electromagnetic Sensor EM15 (1) Sensitivity 15 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 15m km
Cloaking Device: Class cross-section reduced to 25% of normal
This ship kinda follows a 'submarine'/torpedo boat type of ship design. Since the Brits have the range advantage a Mongol ship has to be either faster, stealthier, or in this case, try to be both. I get the feeling I fail on both accounts w/ this design, though her Targeting Cross-Section is pretty small, at least compared to the Royal Sovereign, but it doesn't even try to hide.
Quote
As I wrote that out I kinda rethought the whole idea and came up with a more 'submarine' style vessel.Code: [Select]Mughal class Scout Cruiser 4400 tons 471 Crew 691 BP TCS 22 TH 360 EM 0
4090 km/s Armour 3-23 Shields 0-0 Sensors 15/15/0/0 Damage Control Rating 2 PPV 14
Annual Failure Rate: 77% IFR: 1.1% Maintenance Capacity 196 MSP
Ion Engine (6) Power 60 Efficiency 1.00 Signature 60 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres Range 40.9 billion km (115 days at full power)
Particle Torpedo Launcher (2) Range 200,000km TS: 4090 km/s Power 10-4 ROF 15 4 4 4 4 0 0 0 0 0 0
Torpedo Fire Control (1) Max Range: 256,000 km TS: 3200 km/s 51 39 26 14 1 0 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor (2) Total Power Output 9 Armour 0 Exp 5%
FA Active Search Sensor (1) GPS 640 Range 6.4m km Resolution 40
Thermal Sensor TH15 (1) Sensitivity 15 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 15m km
Electromagnetic Sensor EM15 (1) Sensitivity 15 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 15m km
Cloaking Device: Class cross-section reduced to 25% of normal
The Mughal is a lot slower, though still marginally quicker than the British ships and a lot stealthier with a TCS of 22 and a TH of 360.
I guess the big question is, how close can one of these suckers get to a British fleet before it's spotted, how close can it get before the Brits can start hitting it, and how close does it need to be before it can start hitting them? Oh, and can a ship run at less than full power to decrease its thermal signature?Code: [Select]
Again, no shields. And it's blind (well, both are) at long ranges. 15m km is a pretty close distance really. You might consider pushing the size on the passives a bit higher.
Post by: Buaman22 on August 07, 2008, 01:40:11 PM
In the Preservation 2 campaign, I don't think the Mongols have shields, if so, where do I go to add them.
And how close can one of those ships get before they can be detected and be fired upon
Post by: mavikfelna on August 07, 2008, 08:23:53 PM
Also, you only need one reactor. You're power required PER IMPULSE is only 4. It takes you 15 seconds to recharge because you need 10 power but you can only charge 4 per turn.
You're maintenance is really low on these too. If they operate close to a maintenance base then they're ok, but once they try and deploy for any amount of time they're going to have serious failures and burn through their maintenance funds quickly.
If you can get your tracking speed up around 4k that would be better.
And an active sensor would be a good idea but I don't think an absolute requirement, since it will give you away as soon as you turn it on.
Hope that helps a little.
--Mav
Post by: Hawkeye on August 07, 2008, 11:36:18 PM
what I usualy do re. active sensors:
I will give any warship actives with at least 2 to 3 times the range of its weapons (for Non-Missile-designs) as backup.
Then I will have one or two fleet scouts (perhaps paired with an escort or two) with actives with twice the range of my longest range missile on the theory, that it can stay completely out of enemy weapon range while lighting up targets for my warships. That way, they won?t have to go active and give themself away.
Of course, this means my ships are not intendet to work alone, but, IMO, warships should always work in squadrons anyway.
There are exceptions, Escorts designed for convoy duty, for example, will have long range actives, but the regular line units can get away with that, I think.
Re. shields:
I never realized shields would give ships away, but now that I think about it, it makes sense. I will still mount at least some shields on any warship, simply to have some defense against Mesons, which, as I understand it, can bypass armor.
I have a question re. Mesons too: I noticed in the last combat I had, that Mesons don?t seem to hurt shields and don?t seem to do critical damage once the shields are down
(I get messages like: Ship XXX hit by Meson beams for 7 damage) but there was no info to the damage dealt, I get for other weapons, like "Parson NP Turbine destroyed after receiving 2 points of damage"
Post by: Erik L on August 07, 2008, 11:54:38 PM
Quote from: "mavikfelna"
You don't really want shields on this unit, as it will ruin it's stealth signature. It does need more armor, in either variety.
Also, you only need one reactor. You're power required PER IMPULSE is only 4. It takes you 15 seconds to recharge because you need 10 power but you can only charge 4 per turn.
You're maintenance is really low on these too. If they operate close to a maintenance base then they're ok, but once they try and deploy for any amount of time they're going to have serious failures and burn through their maintenance funds quickly.
If you can get your tracking speed up around 4k that would be better.
And an active sensor would be a good idea but I don't think an absolute requirement, since it will give you away as soon as you turn it on.
Hope that helps a little.
--Mav
He's got 2 launchers, that's 8 power. And yeah, the maintenance is a bit low.
If he needs to go active, then shields would be a good thing. Not sure if you can target on just passives.
As for adding shield tech, go to the Research tab of the Economics window. You should see something like Alpha Shields, and Shield Recharge Rate. Add those, and then design a shield. Though I feel like I'm forgetting a component.
Post by: Charlie Beeler on August 08, 2008, 11:42:05 AM
Two things will give you away on EM, active sensors and shields. Thermal is engine output.
With a thermal signiture of over 1000 the Zanbazar will most likely be detected with passives anyway. A heavy investment in thermal reduction and better cloaking might let it get close enough for a first shot...maybe.
I'd upgrade to capacitor 5 to let these torps cycle in 10 instead of 15 and adjust reactors accordingly. Use two smaller reactors so that a single doesn't completely take out your ability to fire.
I agree that the passives on these ships need to be larger. something that can detect a signature 500 at 50-100m km would not be out of line with the stated mission.
Even with those changes these ships are of limited utility. They are point blank sluggers.
Post by: Buaman22 on August 08, 2008, 04:59:09 PM
Obviously I'm going to want to get new tech, this was all done with the default tech that was researched.
With the Brits having Royal Sovereigns with such long range missles, it means you either have to develop longer range missiles, or survive long enough to use a different kind of weapon. Given that, what would be a good hard hitting weapon to use on either of these ships? Plasma Carronades? Laser's?
I'd like for 2 or 3 of these 2nd type of ship to be able to take out a battleship in a fairly short amount of time. I'm guessing that these ships wouldn't actually be able to go undetected given thermal signatures and sensors?
Post by: Erik L on August 09, 2008, 01:56:06 AM
Everything else is big punch at low range.
Post by: Charles Fox on August 13, 2008, 06:14:42 PM
Post by: Charlie Beeler on August 14, 2008, 10:40:31 AM
Quote from: "Charles Fox"
As an aside, looking at the Mongol tech, they already have missiles and fire control that out ranges the British. Couldn't you strap that off the shelf technology to a ship and run with it? They're bigger that the British missiles, so you'd get a smaller salvo but the Brits haven't invented point defense yet so that doesn't matter.
Are you asking if missiles can be externally mounted? If so, hardpoints have not been introduced to Aurora....yet.
Unlike Starfire and other games, point defense is not a seperate technology the researched and deployed. It's more an additional mode assignment that any weapon system/fire control can be assigned. With the caviot that a purposed designed weapon system combined with a purposed designed fire control is a superior choice for the function.
Post by: Buaman22 on August 14, 2008, 11:56:30 AM
My thinking in these designs was to take advantage of cloaking/ECM and take out a missile armed ship from medium range with current or soon to be developed tech. I just don't like the trend of making longer and longer range missiles. The second design is basically an attempt to make a submarine and that's the design philosophy I'm going with.
Post by: Charles Fox on August 14, 2008, 05:11:52 PM
Quote from: "Buaman22"
I don't think he was thinking of external mounting, he was just saying make a very simple ship that can mount the Mongol's current missile launcher. Right now that system is used on a immobile PDC.
My thinking in these designs was to take advantage of cloaking/ECM and take out a missile armed ship from medium range with current or soon to be developed tech. I just don't like the trend of making longer and longer range missiles. The second design is basically an attempt to make a submarine and that's the design philosophy I'm going with.
Yep, that's what I meant to say. Going with the missiles would've been my solution to the problem, but I feel like your idea fits better with the doctrine the Mongols established earlier in scenario. Changing over from torpedoes to missiles as your primary weapons system would mean a total tactical and strategic overhaul that would take more time than they've had.
Post by: MWadwell on August 15, 2008, 08:23:25 AM
Quote from: "Buaman22"
I don't think he was thinking of external mounting, he was just saying make a very simple ship that can mount the Mongol's current missile launcher. Right now that system is used on a immobile PDC.
My thinking in these designs was to take advantage of cloaking/ECM and take out a missile armed ship from medium range with current or soon to be developed tech. I just don't like the trend of making longer and longer range missiles. The second design is basically an attempt to make a submarine and that's the design philosophy I'm going with.
The problem with the "submarine" design senario, is that if it is detected while it is still out of range of it's weapons, it becomes easy to kill.
For example, using this sensor drone (which uses the current British technology) the british sensor envelope can be extended to nearly 81 million km's, and can detect and target ships long before the "stealthy" ship gets within range of its weapons:
Quote
Missile Size: 4 MSP (0.2 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 9000 km/s Endurance: 149 minutes Range: 80.4m km
Active Sensor Strength: 2.1 Resolution: 20 Maximum Range: 420,000 km
Cost Per Missile: 2.45
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 90% 3k km/s 30% 5k km/s 18% 10k km/s 9%
Materials Required: 2.1x Uridium 0.35x Gallicite Fuel x3125
Development Cost for Project: 245RP
Just a note on stealth, it is dependant on ship speed - so a small ship moving slowly is very hard to detect. However this works both ways - as if a British BB is moving slowly, it could creep into range of the planet, and (using the recon drone) target Mongol ships/PDC's without having to risk enemy fire. (And if the british missiles use a waypoint off to the side, if the Mongols try and backtrack the missiles incoming vector, they will be looking in the wrong area.....)
Post by: Charles Fox on August 17, 2008, 11:18:54 PM
Post by: SteveAlt on August 18, 2008, 09:29:14 AM
Quote from: "Charles Fox"
The sensor drone idea is brilliant, but how do you get it to work? I didn't realise you could launch missiles without giving them a target.
You can launch missiles at a waypoint. I have used sensor probes in a couple of campaigns and they can be very useful. You can fit active, thermal or EM sensors on a missiles and use them either in the recon probe role or to provide onboard guidance for the missile.
Here is a section from my last campaign.
With the future scout ship in mind, the idea of the Recon Drone has been taken a stage further. A Probe Launcher has been designed, which is a essentially a slow-firing, size 12 missile launcher. Active and Thermal probes are under development that will be fired by this launcher. The Active Probe has a much greater sensor range than the recon drone, albeit at a greater resolution, and can therefore be used both in the recon role but also to shadow a hostile contact from outside its likely anti-missile range. More useful will be the Thermal Probe, able to silently assess both planetary and space-borne contacts with far less chance of detection.
Code: [Select]
Active Probe
Missile Size: 12 MSP (0.6 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 9300 km/s Endurance: 279 minutes Range: 155.7m km
Active Sensor Strength: 4.2 Resolution: 50 Maximum Range: 2,100,000 km
Cost Per Missile: 6.0667
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 93% 3k km/s 30% 5k km/s 18.6% 10k km/s 9.3%
Materials Required: 4.2x Uridium 1.8667x Gallicite Fuel x15625
Development Cost for Project: 607 RPCode: [Select]
Thermal Probe
Missile Size: 12 MSP (0.6 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 4000 km/s Endurance: 651 minutes Range: 156.3m km
Thermal Sensor Strength: 2 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 2000k km
Cost Per Missile: 2.8
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 40% 3k km/s 10% 5k km/s 8% 10k km/s 4%
Materials Required: 2x Uridium 0.8x Gallicite Fuel x15625
Development Cost for Project: 280 RPCode: [Select]
Bauer class Scout 5000 tons 462 Crew 851.4 BP TCS 100 TH 480 EM 0
4800 km/s JR 3-50 Armour 1-26 Shields 0-0 Sensors 80/24/0/0 Damage Control 0-0 PPV 6
Magazine 192 Replacement Parts 5
J510 Jump Drive Max Ship Size 5100 tons Distance 50k km Squadron Size 3
Scheiner SE-6 Magneto-plasma Drive (6) Power 80 Efficiency 0.60 Signature 80 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 225,000 Litres Range 135.0 billion km (325 days at full power)
Probe Launcher (1) Missile Size 12 Rate of Fire 1800
Probe Guidance System (1) Range 150.0m km Resolution 500
Thermal Probe (12) Speed: 4000 km/s End: 651 minutes Range: 156.3m km Warhead: 0 MR: 10 Size: 12
Active Probe (4) Speed: 9300 km/s End: 279 minutes Range: 155.7m km Warhead: 0 MR: 10 Size: 12
S210/100 Active Search Sensor (1) GPS 21000 Range 210.0m km Resolution 100
T80 Thermal Sensor (1) Sensitivity 80 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 80m km
E24 Electromagnetic Sensor (1) Sensitivity 24 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 24m kmSteve
Post by: MWadwell on August 18, 2008, 05:50:09 PM
Quote from: "Charles Fox"
The sensor drone idea is brilliant, but how do you get it to work? I didn't realise you could launch missiles without giving them a target.
The idea is Steve's - the design is just a modification of a design he had in one of his previous campaigns (he had the design in two campaigns, one where he used latin in the fiction titles (the 2084 campaign?), and I believe the other was the one based on the crusaders becoming the dominant power).
As to use, you fire them as per normal missiles (and so you need to be careful about their targeting), and you use waypoints to get the missile to "loiter". (At least, this is the way I think they work, it has been a while since I've played with them).
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 12, 2008, 06:11:57 AM
Quote from: "Buaman22"
Can a ship run at less than full power to decrease its thermal signature?
Yes, reducing speed will reduce the thermal signature at the same rate. So a ship with a thermal signature of 500 at full speed will only have a signature of 250 at half speed. You can also research thermal reduction tech for your engines. There are three ways to be detected. Active - which can be countered by cloaking technology, Thermal - which can be countered by thermal reduction tech or moving slowly, and EM - which can be countered by avoiding the use of active sensors or active shields.
Steve
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 12, 2008, 06:14:03 AM
Quote from: "Hawkeye"
I have a question re. Mesons too: I noticed in the last combat I had, that Mesons don?t seem to hurt shields and don?t seem to do critical damage once the shields are down
(I get messages like: Ship XXX hit by Meson beams for 7 damage) but there was no info to the damage dealt, I get for other weapons, like "Parson NP Turbine destroyed after receiving 2 points of damage"
Mesons should ignore shields and armour. However they should only cause 1 point of damage each so there is definitely something strange going there. Do you still have the problem?
Steve
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 12, 2008, 06:16:24 AM
Quote from: "Hawkeye"
Then I will have one or two fleet scouts (perhaps paired with an escort or two) with actives with twice the range of my longest range missile on the theory, that it can stay completely out of enemy weapon range while lighting up targets for my warships. That way, they won?t have to go active and give themself away.
This is a very useful tactic. Using scouts with long range sensors to light up targets is a very good way to allow small or otherwise hard-to-detect ships to launch their missiles without giving away their own position.
Steve
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 12, 2008, 06:24:40 AM
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
Lasers are probably your best bet for a stand-off weapon (besides missiles). And in a pinch, the lasers can act as point-defense.
Everything else is big punch at low range.
The low-range, high power weapons are ideal if you can get close, perhaps by defending a jump point. Something I am considering is designing a race with a combat philosophy based on a high level of missile defence combined with fast, beam-armed ships.
Something else I have been considering is extending the range of some beam weapons. The problem is that light travels 1.5m kilometers during a 5 second increment, which places a limit on beam weapon range. As this limit is applied to highest tech levels, the low tech levels are correspondingly shorter. However, it occured to me that the basis of Aurora physics is that ships built with TN materials exist partially in a alternate dimension with physical laws different to our own, allowing much faster movement than would normally be allowed, turning as if in a liquid and no light speed restrictions on communication and sensors. So I asked myself if there are no no light speed restrictions on communication and sensors, why should there be light speed restrictions on beam weapons?
I'll give it some further thought
Steve
Post by: Charlie Beeler on September 12, 2008, 07:42:53 AM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Something else I have been considering is extending the range of some beam weapons. The problem is that light travels 1.5m kilometers during a 5 second increment, which places a limit on beam weapon range. As this limit is applied to highest tech levels, the low tech levels are correspondingly shorter. However, it occured to me that the basis of Aurora physics is that ships built with TN materials exist partially in a alternate dimension with physical laws different to our own, allowing much faster movement than would normally be allowed, turning as if in a liquid and no light speed restrictions on communication and sensors. So I asked myself if there are no no light speed restrictions on communication and sensors, why should there be light speed restrictions on beam weapons?
I'll give it some further thought
Steve
I've been hesitant to make this suggestion because I an idea of how much coding would have to done to support it for very little gain. Track the actual path of a beam. Alter the way that they difuse. Perhap even account for a wider area being affected by a strong beam as it defuses. I don't really think gains would be worth the effort. Might as well add -delta-v movement mechanics for the level of effort involved.
Not that I'm against reaction movement, it has it's place. And I'm aware of the complexity of the code too support. I've always like the idea of setting a scout on a powered down ballistic course to get a really good look at something. Along the lines of the light cruiser in Weber's "Short Victorious War".
Post by: Hawkeye on September 12, 2008, 08:01:54 AM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Hawkeye"I have a question re. Mesons too: I noticed in the last combat I had, that Mesons don?t seem to hurt shields and don?t seem to do critical damage once the shields are downMesons should ignore shields and armour. However they should only cause 1 point of damage each so there is definitely something strange going there. Do you still have the problem?
(I get messages like: Ship XXX hit by Meson beams for 7 damage) but there was no info to the damage dealt, I get for other weapons, like "Parson NP Turbine destroyed after receiving 2 points of damage"
Steve
I haven?t had a combat involving Mesons since, but I might have to clarify something here.
I didn?t mean that a single Meson Beam dealt 7 damage, the enemy ship was hit by (if my memory serves me right) by 7 Mesons, dealing 1 point of damage each, but the damaged was "added up" in the report (at least that is what I think).
Messages I got (as far as I can remember):
Meson Beam targeted at enemy ship XXX -- hit (ship has shields up and there is no follow up report about any damage dealt, neither to the shields nor to the ship)
Meson Beam targeted at enemy ship XXX -- hit (enemy shields are down, so a follow up message is generated)
Enemy ship XXX hit by Meson Beam for 1 point of damage
(Usually, after this, a message about what system on the enemy ship is destroyed by that point of damage, but not so with mesons)
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 21, 2008, 05:42:07 AM
Quote from: "Hawkeye"
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"Quote from: "Hawkeye"I have a question re. Mesons too: I noticed in the last combat I had, that Mesons don?t seem to hurt shields and don?t seem to do critical damage once the shields are downMesons should ignore shields and armour. However they should only cause 1 point of damage each so there is definitely something strange going there. Do you still have the problem?
(I get messages like: Ship XXX hit by Meson beams for 7 damage) but there was no info to the damage dealt, I get for other weapons, like "Parson NP Turbine destroyed after receiving 2 points of damage"
Steve
I haven?t had a combat involving Mesons since, but I might have to clarify something here.
I didn?t mean that a single Meson Beam dealt 7 damage, the enemy ship was hit by (if my memory serves me right) by 7 Mesons, dealing 1 point of damage each, but the damaged was "added up" in the report (at least that is what I think).
Messages I got (as far as I can remember):
Meson Beam targeted at enemy ship XXX -- hit (ship has shields up and there is no follow up report about any damage dealt, neither to the shields nor to the ship)
Meson Beam targeted at enemy ship XXX -- hit (enemy shields are down, so a follow up message is generated)
Enemy ship XXX hit by Meson Beam for 1 point of damage
(Usually, after this, a message about what system on the enemy ship is destroyed by that point of damage, but not so with mesons)
I've found the problem. When I introduced the new armour system, I had to change the way that damage was applied. Once past the armour section of the damage code, the remaining damage was contained in a new variable called penetrating damage. Unfortunately, mesons didn't have to penetrate the armour so this variable was never set and remained at 0. It was a simple fix for the next version but it means mesons don't cause damage in v3.1
Steve
Post by: Brian Neumann on September 21, 2008, 10:29:56 AM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Something else I have been considering is extending the range of some beam weapons. The problem is that light travels 1.5m kilometers during a 5 second increment, which places a limit on beam weapon range. As this limit is applied to highest tech levels, the low tech levels are correspondingly shorter. However, it occured to me that the basis of Aurora physics is that ships built with TN materials exist partially in a alternate dimension with physical laws different to our own, allowing much faster movement than would normally be allowed, turning as if in a liquid and no light speed restrictions on communication and sensors. So I asked myself if there are no no light speed restrictions on communication and sensors, why should there be light speed restrictions on beam weapons?
I'll give it some further thought
Steve
Related to this is a problem at the high tech end. A typical missle can travel at 200,000+ km/s giving beam point defence only one shot to stop it. (200,000x5=1 million km/s) As beam weapons only have a maximum of 1.4 million km range they can either fire in a long range mode or final defence mode. They won't get both shots. This means that missile defence becomes almost totally dependent on the counter missile defence.
Just to give an idea of how powerfull missles can be here is a basic size 4 missile
Quote
Missile Size: 4 MSP (0.2 HS) Warhead: 30 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 35[/code]
Speed: 200000 km/s Endurance: 9 minutes Range: 112.4m km
ECM Level: 5
Cost Per Missile: 25.5833
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 7000% 3k km/s 2310% 5k km/s 1400% 10k km/s 700%
Materials Required: 2.5x Corbomite 7.5x Tritanium 15.5833x Gallicite Fuel x625
Development Cost for Project: 2558RP
you can see how dangerous a small missile has gotten.
Another related problem is that the maximum track speed is currently 80,000km/s which gives the maximum chance to hit one of these missile at 40%. Put together this gives a poor chance for point defence to stop missiles.
Also related to tracking speed is a different problem. The base tracking speed at maximum is 20,000 km/s. At the high end tech, a typical warship speed is closer to 40,000. This leads to vary bulky fire control for basic use. I just don't feel that it is right for the ships to move so fast in comarison to a typical fire control system at the same tech level.
Brian
Post by: Brian Neumann on September 21, 2008, 10:31:58 AM
Brian
Post by: Kurt on September 21, 2008, 11:50:22 AM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Hawkeye"I've found the problem. When I introduced the new armour system, I had to change the way that damage was applied. Once past the armour section of the damage code, the remaining damage was contained in a new variable called penetrating damage. Unfortunately, mesons didn't have to penetrate the armour so this variable was never set and remained at 0. It was a simple fix for the next version but it means mesons don't cause damage in v3.1Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"Quote from: "Hawkeye"I have a question re. Mesons too: I noticed in the last combat I had, that Mesons don?t seem to hurt shields and don?t seem to do critical damage once the shields are downMesons should ignore shields and armour. However they should only cause 1 point of damage each so there is definitely something strange going there. Do you still have the problem?
(I get messages like: Ship XXX hit by Meson beams for 7 damage) but there was no info to the damage dealt, I get for other weapons, like "Parson NP Turbine destroyed after receiving 2 points of damage"
Steve
I haven?t had a combat involving Mesons since, but I might have to clarify something here.
I didn?t mean that a single Meson Beam dealt 7 damage, the enemy ship was hit by (if my memory serves me right) by 7 Mesons, dealing 1 point of damage each, but the damaged was "added up" in the report (at least that is what I think).
Messages I got (as far as I can remember):
Meson Beam targeted at enemy ship XXX -- hit (ship has shields up and there is no follow up report about any damage dealt, neither to the shields nor to the ship)
Meson Beam targeted at enemy ship XXX -- hit (enemy shields are down, so a follow up message is generated)
Enemy ship XXX hit by Meson Beam for 1 point of damage
(Usually, after this, a message about what system on the enemy ship is destroyed by that point of damage, but not so with mesons)
Steve
Hmmm...that would mean mesons are rather limited in 3.1 then. I'll have to rethink their use.
Kurt
Post by: Michael Sandy on October 26, 2008, 12:51:24 PM
A fuel efficient, stealthy drive for tooling around the system, and a highly inefficient, noisy drive system for closing fast once close enough.
Post by: Brian Neumann on October 26, 2008, 01:48:10 PM
Quote from: "Michael Sandy"
I wonder if a dual drive system would make sense for a stealth focused ship.As currently set up you can not have more than one type of engine. Even if this was reduced, the mass penalty would be extreme. All you need to do to reduce your thermal signature is to slow down. Combine that with a decent thermal reduction tech and you have your stealth drive.
A fuel efficient, stealthy drive for tooling around the system, and a highly inefficient, noisy drive system for closing fast once close enough.
Brian
Post by: waresky on January 20, 2009, 11:26:40 AM
(example from Meson to new armor=0 damage:)))..)
My sensation are missile are very good testing from u..but some other weapons are very strange,Hyperwave for example,...what are the advantage to use it?
Post by: Charlie Beeler on January 20, 2009, 01:23:00 PM
Post by: jfelten on October 09, 2009, 03:23:07 PM
Code: [Select]
Gladius PDC class Planetary Defence Centre 45400 tons 1835 Crew 4499.4 BP TCS 908 TH 0 EM 0
Armour 14-113 Sensors 120/160 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 140
Flag Bridge Troop Capacity 10 Divisions Magazine 460
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres Range N/A
PDC Quad R1.5/C2 Meson Cannon Turret (2x4) Range 15,000km TS: 13340 km/s Power 12-8 RM 1.5 ROF 10 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
PDC Fire Control S16 144-12000 (2) Max Range: 288,000 km TS: 12000 km/s 97 93 90 86 83 79 76 72 69 65
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (2) Total Power Output 18 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Size 1 Missile Launcher (10) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 15
PDC Size 10 Missile Launcher (3) Missile Size 10 Rate of Fire 75
Missile Fire Control FC32-R1 (AMM) (5) Range 960k km Resolution 1
PDC Missile Fire Control FC160-R1 (2) Range 4.8m km Resolution 1
PDC Missile Fire Control FC160-R20 (2) Range 96.0m km Resolution 20
PDC Active Search Sensor S160-R20 (1) GPS 3200 Range 32.0m km Resolution 20
PDC Thermal Sensor TH20-120 (1) Sensitivity 120 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 120m km
PDC EM Detection Sensor EM20-120 (1) Sensitivity 120 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 120m km
This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 19 sections
Post by: Beersatron on October 09, 2009, 04:59:31 PM
Quote from: "jfelten"
How about this PDC to use up my starting 4,500 build points? I would have liked more large missile launchers, but ran out of BP's. I guess I could remove the starting fuel tank.Code: [Select]Gladius PDC class Planetary Defence Centre 45400 tons 1835 Crew 4499.4 BP TCS 908 TH 0 EM 0
Armour 14-113 Sensors 120/160 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 140
Flag Bridge Troop Capacity 10 Divisions Magazine 460
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres Range N/A
PDC Quad R1.5/C2 Meson Cannon Turret (2x4) Range 15,000km TS: 13340 km/s Power 12-8 RM 1.5 ROF 10 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
PDC Fire Control S16 144-12000 (2) Max Range: 288,000 km TS: 12000 km/s 97 93 90 86 83 79 76 72 69 65
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (2) Total Power Output 18 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Size 1 Missile Launcher (10) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 15
PDC Size 10 Missile Launcher (3) Missile Size 10 Rate of Fire 75
Missile Fire Control FC32-R1 (AMM) (5) Range 960k km Resolution 1
PDC Missile Fire Control FC160-R1 (2) Range 4.8m km Resolution 1
PDC Missile Fire Control FC160-R20 (2) Range 96.0m km Resolution 20
PDC Active Search Sensor S160-R20 (1) GPS 3200 Range 32.0m km Resolution 20
PDC Thermal Sensor TH20-120 (1) Sensitivity 120 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 120m km
PDC EM Detection Sensor EM20-120 (1) Sensitivity 120 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 120m km
This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 19 sections
You could drop the fire control range down to say 30k km and save some space plus 'unable to fire' message during combat. Do meson's work in atmosphere ok now?
Yeah, you don't need the fuel tank.
The power on the meson's and the power outputted by the generators don't match up to well. If I am reading that correctly it takes 12 energy to fire your mesons and they charge 8 every 5secs so it takes 10secs to fire. And then you are providing 2x18 power per 5secs with the gens.
What are the stats for your size 1 and size 10 missiles?
You have 13 launchers and 9 fire controls, what way are you planning on pairing them up?
I would whack in a far larger active search sensor, maybe even triple the range. And then have a resolution 1 active search sensor so you can detect the enemy missiles.
Post by: jfelten on October 09, 2009, 05:34:44 PM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
You could drop the fire control range down to say 30k km and save some space plus 'unable to fire' message during combat. Do meson's work in atmosphere ok now?
Yeah, you don't need the fuel tank.
The power on the meson's and the power outputted by the generators don't match up to well. If I am reading that correctly it takes 12 energy to fire your mesons and they charge 8 every 5secs so it takes 10secs to fire. And then you are providing 2x18 power per 5secs with the gens.
What are the stats for your size 1 and size 10 missiles?
You have 13 launchers and 9 fire controls, what way are you planning on pairing them up?
I would whack in a far larger active search sensor, maybe even triple the range. And then have a resolution 1 active search sensor so you can detect the enemy missiles.
I didn't know there was a problem with Mesons in atmosphere. Were they not working in recent versions?
The generators are 9 power each. My thought was that two would provide more than sufficient power but if one was knocked out, the other would still keep the turrets firing, although at a slower rate. I didn't start with internal armor tech.
I haven't really finalized the big missile designs. Probably give them approximately the range of the FC sensor, around 100m Km.
I probably have too many of the anti-missile fire controls. I just threw 5 on to start and didn't go back and pare them down, but I did want extra. The two big missile fire controls were more for redundancy than targeting.
So you would make the active search sensor longer range? It currently has an antenna size of 10, so is 500 tons and costs 160 build points. How big would you make it?
Strange, I just started advancing time in the new game and at the 5 day mark (when industry first runs) I got a bunch of divide by zero errors associated with population. Brand new game. I hope it doesn't recur every 5 days.
Post by: Beersatron on October 09, 2009, 08:26:04 PM
Code: [Select]
Harbour class Planetary Fighter Base 10000 tons 475 Crew 1115 BP TCS 200 TH 0 EM 0
Armour 6-41 Sensors 12/84 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 0
Hangar Deck Capacity 8000 tons
Active Search Sensor S84-R1 (1) GPS 84 Range 840k km Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor S84-R100 (1) GPS 8400 Range 84.0m km Resolution 100
Short Range Thermal Sensors (1) Sensitivity 12 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 12m km
Short Range EM Sensors (1) Sensitivity 12 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 12m km
Strike Group
16x Tarawa Fighter Speed: 6000 km/s Size: 8
2x Hawk Fighter-Scout Speed: 6000 km/s Size: 8
2x Eagle Fighter-Scout Speed: 6000 km/s Size: 8
This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 4 sections
The 'Active Search Sensor S84-R1 (1) GPS 84 Range 840k km Resolution 1' detects missiles which my Tarawa fighters can try to intercept.
The 'Active Search Sensor S84-R100 (1) GPS 8400 Range 84.0m km Resolution 100' detects the enemy ships which gives me fair warning on approach and lets me vector in my fighters if I think the planet is not under threat from enemy missiles.
The Hawk is a short range active search sensor scout for anti-missile.
The Eagle is a long range active search sensor scout for anti-ship.
They are mainly used for redundancy or for when the fighters outpace either their carriers or get to far from the planet.
This is a small PDC with no redundancy built into it, it is quick to build the PDC and the fighters and ship to a new colony world until a Destroyer picket is made available.
When designing beam weapons and generators I try to design one generator to power one beam or a turret of multiple beams.
For instance, this is the Tarawa fighter:
Code: [Select]
Tarawa class Fighter 400 tons 55 Crew 88 BP TCS 8 TH 48 EM 0
6000 km/s Armour 1-4 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 3
Annual Failure Rate: 2% IFR: 0% Maintenance Capacity 69 MSP Max Repair 27 MSP
Military Magneto Plasma Drive - FTR (1) Power 48 Efficiency 70.00 Signature 48 Armour 0 Exp 25%
Fuel Capacity 30,000 Litres Range 1.9 billion km (3 days at full power)
Tanto Class Laser (1) Range 90,000km TS: 6000 km/s Power 3-3 RM 3 ROF 5 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Tanto Fire Control 120 - FTR (1) Max Range: 120,000 km TS: 12000 km/s 92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Gamma Reactor (1) Total Power Output 3 Armour 0 Exp 5%
This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a fighter for production and combat purposes
The laser takes 3 power to shoot and has a capacitor which charges 3 units every 5 seconds (hence the ROF of 5). The generator outputs 3 units per 5 seconds, so it is perfectly balanced.
This is my patrol/picket Destroyer:
Code: [Select]
Ticonderoga II class Destroyer 10000 tons 994 Crew 2135 BP TCS 200 TH 800 EM 0
4000 km/s JR 3-50 Armour 6-41 Shields 0-0 Sensors 12/12/0/0 Damage Control Rating 13 PPV 24
Annual Failure Rate: 61% IFR: 0.9% Maintenance Capacity 1735 MSP Max Repair 625 MSP
J10000(3-50) Jump Drive Max Ship Size 10000 tons Distance 50k km Squadron Size 3
Military Magneto Plasma Drive (10) Power 80 Efficiency 0.70 Signature 80 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 150,000 Litres Range 38.6 billion km (111 days at full power)
Triple Katana Class Laser Turret (1x3) Range 300,000km TS: 12000 km/s Power 30-15 RM 3 ROF 10 10 10 10 7 5 5 4 3 3 3
Katana Turret Fire Control (1) Max Range: 320,000 km TS: 12000 km/s 97 94 91 88 84 81 78 75 72 69
Gamma Reactor (5) Total Power Output 15 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Active Search Sensor S84-R1 (1) GPS 84 Range 840k km Resolution 1
Short Range Thermal Sensors (1) Sensitivity 12 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 12m km
Short Range EM Sensors (1) Sensitivity 12 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 12m km
ECM 20
This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes
The one triple turret requires 30 units to fire and has a capacitor of 15 (5 per laser in the turret) which means it takes 10seconds to charge. Each Gamma Reactor produces 3units for a total of 15 which is all that is needed. Any more would be a waste of mass.
I always make my fire controls slightly longer ranged and faster tracking than the actual laser, sometimes the difference can appear to be fairly large due to the step between levels of tech.
Hope this helps ya, and that somebody chimes in with missile examples!
Post by: jfelten on October 10, 2009, 03:35:09 AM
Here are some sample missiles and a sample loadout I threw together last night. It was kind of quick and dirty and I didn't go to extremes to match ranges with sensors on the theory that missile tech will advance fairly soon and these early missiles will be relegated to reloads or backwater units eventually that will probably have different sensors. Besides, I wanted to start advancing time and playing to game. Feedback is still appreciated. I'm not sure how reloads of PDC missiles from planetary stock works during combat. Is reloading fast enough to be a factor? I'll probably also build some supplemental small anti-missile bases in the future and dedicate more magazine space here to large missiles. I would like more big launchers and more big missiles to fire, but have to work within the constraints of the starting build points.
Code: [Select]
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (100) Speed: 10,600 km/s End: 104.2m Range: 66.2m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 35 / 21 / 10
Size 1 ASM Dart-1 (30) Speed: 15,000 km/s End: 44.3m Range: 39.9m km WH: 0 Size: 1 TH: 50 / 30 / 15
Size 10 ASM-1 (10) Speed: 9,600 km/s End: 69.4m Range: 40m km WH: 9 Size: 10 TH: 41 / 25 / 12
Size 10 Long Range ASM (10) Speed: 9,600 km/s End: 138.9m Range: 80m km WH: 6 Size: 10 TH: 41 / 25 / 12
Size 10 Slammer ASM (10) Speed: 12,800 km/s End: 26m Range: 20m km WH: 15 Size: 10 TH: 42 / 25 / 12
Size 10 Active Sensor Drone 1 (1) Speed: 6,400 km/s End: 208.3m Range: 80m km WH: 0 Size: 10 TH: 21 / 12 / 6
Size 10 Multi Sensor Drone 1 (2) Speed: 6,400 km/s End: 260.4m Range: 100m km WH: 0 Size: 10 TH: 21 / 12 / 6
Post by: Hawkeye on October 10, 2009, 10:11:53 AM
Quote from: "jfelten"
Code: [Select]Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (100) Speed: 10,600 km/s End: 104.2m Range: 66.2m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 35 / 21 / 10
Size 1 ASM Dart-1 (30) Speed: 15,000 km/s End: 44.3m Range: 39.9m km WH: 0 Size: 1 TH: 50 / 30 / 15
Size 10 ASM-1 (10) Speed: 9,600 km/s End: 69.4m Range: 40m km WH: 9 Size: 10 TH: 41 / 25 / 12
Size 10 Long Range ASM (10) Speed: 9,600 km/s End: 138.9m Range: 80m km WH: 6 Size: 10 TH: 41 / 25 / 12
Size 10 Slammer ASM (10) Speed: 12,800 km/s End: 26m Range: 20m km WH: 15 Size: 10 TH: 42 / 25 / 12
Size 10 Active Sensor Drone 1 (1) Speed: 6,400 km/s End: 208.3m Range: 80m km WH: 0 Size: 10 TH: 21 / 12 / 6
Size 10 Multi Sensor Drone 1 (2) Speed: 6,400 km/s End: 260.4m Range: 100m km WH: 0 Size: 10 TH: 21 / 12 / 6
Ouch, your AMMs seem awfully inefficient. With only a 10% chance to intercept an enemy missile moving at 10.000 km/s you will need a crapload of them to stop even rather smallish salvos.
I usually attemt to design an AMM that is reasonably good at intercepting my own shipkillers (at least 30%, preferably better). Very early in the game, this is pretty tough.
One thing to remember, however: You will have a realy hard time spotting enemy missiles more than 1m km away, so giving your AMMs a range of 100m+ km is realy a waste of space. I´d drastically reduce the fuel load on those and up engine/manouverability.
What´s the intended role of the Dart, as it doesn´t have any warhead, as far as I can see?
Your shipkillers have "only" a chance of ~40% to hit an enemy ship moving at 2500 km/s. If you are stuck with nuclear thermal engines, this is fine, but if you have higher tech the intercept rate is rather low. As with AMMs, I try to get good intercept rates against my own ships, as those will be the benchmark until I run into the first aliens.
Post by: jfelten on October 11, 2009, 07:28:05 AM
With starting tech, it takes 1/3 (0.34) MSP for a 1 point warhead, leaving 2/3 (0.66) on a 1 space anti-missile missile. Playing around I can get something like this but it only has 1/6th the range.:
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1 MSP (0.05 HS) Warhead: 1 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 19500 km/s Endurance: 9 minutes Range: 10.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.5753
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 195% 3k km/s 60% 5k km/s 39% 10k km/s 19.5%
Materials Required: 0.25x Tritanium 0.0753x Gallicite Fuel x125
Development Cost for Project: 58RPI can eek out a few percent more hit% by converting some speed to agility, but the greater speed is probably worth more in combat.
Other than that, it is pretty much a tradeoff between range and speed = hit%. Perhaps something in the middle such as?:
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1 MSP (0.05 HS) Warhead: 1 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 12
Speed: 12800 km/s Endurance: 52 minutes Range: 40.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.5133
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 153.6% 3k km/s 48% 5k km/s 30.7% 10k km/s 15.4%
Materials Required: 0.25x Tritanium 0.0113x Gallicite Fuel x500
Development Cost for Project: 51RP
Post by: Hawkeye on October 11, 2009, 10:41:39 AM
Quote from: "jfelten"
Good catch about the dart. Missing warhead was a mistake. I probably entered 0.33 MSP (WH=0) instead of 0.34 (WH=1). Any way for the SM to edit a missile design once it has been built?
Not that I know of, sorry.
But in such a case, I don´t have a problem with designing a new missile and using "instant RST"
Quote from: "jfelten"
With starting tech, it takes 1/3 (0.34) MSP for a 1 point warhead, leaving 2/3 (0.66) on a 1 space anti-missile missile. Playing around I can get something like this but it only has 1/6th the range.:Code: [Select]Missile Size: 1 MSP (0.05 HS) Warhead: 1 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 19500 km/s Endurance: 9 minutes Range: 10.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.5753
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 195% 3k km/s 60% 5k km/s 39% 10k km/s 19.5%
Materials Required: 0.25x Tritanium 0.0753x Gallicite Fuel x125
Development Cost for Project: 58RP
I can eek out a few percent more hit% by converting some speed to agility, but the greater speed is probably worth more in combat.
Looks better. I know it is very hard at the start to design a viable AMM.
Personally, I don´t bother until I have researched Nuclear Pulse Missile Engines and the first improved warhead, Levitated Pit, I belive
Generally, I approach Anti-missile-missile design by first designing the active anti-missile-sensor, then use twice the range of the sensor as range for the missile, in order to account for future enhancements in sensor tech.
So, say my AM-Sensor has a range of 1.1mkm, my AMMs will have a range between 2 and 3 mkm.
Speed should be a bit faster than my fastest ship-killer missiles. If my shipkillers move at 12.800km/s, for example, I will aim for a speed of about 16.000km/s for my AMS
Quote from: "jfelten"
Other than that, it is pretty much a tradeoff between range and speed = hit%. Perhaps something in the middle such as?:Code: [Select]Missile Size: 1 MSP (0.05 HS) Warhead: 1 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 12
Speed: 12800 km/s Endurance: 52 minutes Range: 40.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.5133
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 153.6% 3k km/s 48% 5k km/s 30.7% 10k km/s 15.4%
Materials Required: 0.25x Tritanium 0.0113x Gallicite Fuel x500
Development Cost for Project: 51RP
Hm, I am assuming this is also meant to be a ship-killer (given the 40mkm range)?
Never bothered with size-1 ASMs myself, I have to admit. The warhead is abysimal and (IMO, of course) not worth the hassle.
This might change later on, when you could fit a class-2 or even class-3 warhead on a size-1 missle, to give a DE/CE class some offensive long-range punch.
Post by: jfelten on October 11, 2009, 11:33:11 AM
No. It was meant to be a long range AMM. I figure the farther out I can start launching at incoming missiles, the more time I'll have to react. But it could be used in an AS role in an emergency, especially since ships are easier to see at long range than missiles. One point warheads are not a big threat but if it is all you have, it is better than nothing in some situations. I don't know how NPR's design ships in 4.x, but I've seen players posting ship designs with thin armor and weak shields. I don't think low tech ships really can have very strong passive defenses and still have an offensive punch.
I've also wondered about designing one space "decoy" missiles with the same speed and range as bigger AS missiles and launching them all in one salvo. Would some enemy AMM's be drawn off by the 1 MSP missiles? Or can the larger missiles be targeted separately? I don't remember from the 3.x game I played and things may have changed in 4.x anyway.
Post by: Hawkeye on October 11, 2009, 03:40:34 PM
Quote from: "jfelten"
> Hm, I am assuming this is also meant to be a ship-killer (given the 40mkm range)?
No. It was meant to be a long range AMM. I figure the farther out I can start launching at incoming missiles, the more time I'll have to react. But it could be used in an AS role in an emergency, especially since ships are easier to see at long range than missiles. One point warheads are not a big threat but if it is all you have, it is better than nothing in some situations. I don't know how NPR's design ships in 4.x, but I've seen players posting ship designs with thin armor and weak shields. I don't think low tech ships really can have very strong passive defenses and still have an offensive punch.
Problem with the long range AMM is, you simply won´t be able to see the enemy missile from long range. In my experience (which isn´t all that much) 1.5 million km is quite a long range anti-missile sensor. Of course, you could build a dedicated Anti-Missile-Sensor-Groundbase with a truely massive Active Sensor Array, but with Active Grave Sensor strength 10, you can at max. build a size 50 (2.500t) sensor array, which will give you a range of 5 million km at resolution 0. It´ll cost you 500 minerals to build and 5.000 research points to develop though :D )
Post by: jfelten on October 11, 2009, 05:07:43 PM
I suspect you are correct about swarming someone with small missiles, but I'm not sure if the 1 point warheads would penetrate heavy armor even en mass. Shame we don't have a battle simulator where people could pit fleets of equivalent tonnage and technology against each other.
Post by: Beersatron on October 11, 2009, 05:21:42 PM
Quote from: "jfelten"
I was thinking that dedicated fleet scouts could see the missiles at long range. The launching units just need a missile fire control with enough range.
I suspect you are correct about swarming someone with small missiles, but I'm not sure if the 1 point warheads would penetrate heavy armor even en mass. Shame we don't have a battle simulator where people could pit fleets of equivalent tonnage and technology against each other.
A problem with this is that the scout would be using a very strong active search sensor and would be leading the fleet so it would be the first obvious target. Once the scout goes, so does your missile detection.
Post by: Steve Walmsley on October 13, 2009, 10:03:19 AM
Quote from: "Hawkeye"
Actually, the more I think about this, the more I like the small one.Something else to bear in mind though is that small missile warheads will sandpaper the armour while large warheads while crater it. You will very likely get internal damage sooner with the same amount of damage from a few large warheads than from numerous small warheads.
Comparing your new, small ASM with your Type-1 size 10 ASM below
Size 10 ASM-1 (10) Speed: 9,600 km/s End: 69.4m Range: 40m km WH: 9 Size: 10 TH: 41 / 25 / 12
Size 1 ASM/AMM Speed: 12800 km/s End: 52m Range: 40m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 48 / 30.7 / 15.4
I can´t fail to notice, that, ton for ton, you get more bang from 10 small missiles and you also get a much larger salvo which in turn will be much more able to swamp enemy defenses. Of course penetrating power still favors the ASM-1, but with a salvo size of 3, chances are, not a lot will get through enemy PD, while with a salvo size of 30 size-1 missiles, quite a few will probably make it (and imagine the incredible amount of enemy AMMs that will be used against such a swarm)
Steve
Post by: Steve Walmsley on October 13, 2009, 10:04:25 AM
Quote from: "jfelten"
I was thinking that dedicated fleet scouts could see the missiles at long range. The launching units just need a missile fire control with enough range.Just create a second race and transfer some ships over to it. Then you can have both sides fight using the same designs.
I suspect you are correct about swarming someone with small missiles, but I'm not sure if the 1 point warheads would penetrate heavy armor even en mass. Shame we don't have a battle simulator where people could pit fleets of equivalent tonnage and technology against each other.
Steve