Aurora 4x
C# Aurora => General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve Walmsley on July 15, 2021, 06:59:52 AM
-
I'm faced with a situation where almost every tech has advanced since the last round of refits, so the cost to refit is almost the same as building new. I wondered what other people do in this situation.
Here is the existing Sword class frigate:
Sword II class Frigate 9,375 tons 284 Crew 1,571 BP TCS 187 TH 900 EM 1,380
4800 km/s Armour 4-39 Shields 46-368 HTK 64 Sensors 6/8/0/0 DCR 6 PPV 44.32
Maint Life 2.65 Years MSP 628 AFR 117% IFR 1.6% 1YR 127 5YR 1,902 Max Repair 225 MSP
Commander Control Rating 2 BRG AUX
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Morale Check Required
Ravenor Drive Systems RDS-450B Ion Drive (2) Power 900 Fuel Use 63.75% Signature 450 Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 656,000 Litres Range 19.8 billion km (47 days at full power)
Valentinian-Stern VS-46 Void Shield (1) Recharge Time 368 seconds (0.1 per second)
Astaroth Kinetics AK-20 Weapons Battery (4x4) Range 160,000km TS: 4,800 km/s Power 12-4 RM 40,000 km ROF 15
Dominus-Varnus Defence Systems DV-2 Defence Turret (1x6) Range 30,000km TS: 16000 km/s Power 0-0 RM 30,000 km ROF 5
MK I Defence Turret Fire Control (1) Max Range: 64,000 km TS: 16,000 km/s 84 69 53 38 22 6 0 0 0 0
MK II Energy Weapon Fire Control (2) Max Range: 256,000 km TS: 4,800 km/s 96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
R-8 Magnetic Mirror Fusion Reactor (2) Total Power Output 16.6 Exp 5%
MK II Frigate Active Augur Array (1) GPS 8640 Range 66.8m km Resolution 120
MK II Torpedo Detection Array (1) GPS 32 Range 9m km MCR 812.4k km Resolution 1
MK I Thermal Augur Array (1) Sensitivity 6 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 19.4m km
MK II Electromagnetic Augur Array (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22.4m km
Here is the latest design. Apart from the obvious new engines, I have to add fire controls that match the higher speed. Better weapons are available and I also have ECM/ECCM, improved sensors and improved shields.
Sword III class Frigate 9,600 tons 310 Crew 1,814.3 BP TCS 192 TH 1,152 EM 2,130
6000 km/s Armour 4-40 Shields 71-426 HTK 70 Sensors 8/11/0/0 DCR 6 PPV 40
Maint Life 2.44 Years MSP 708 AFR 123% IFR 1.7% 1YR 163 5YR 2,452 Max Repair 288 MSP
Commander Control Rating 2 BRG AUX
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Morale Check Required
Ravenor RDS-576-B Magneto-Plasma Drive (2) Power 1152 Fuel Use 63.75% Signature 576 Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 642,000 Litres Range 18.9 billion km (36 days at full power)
Valentinian-Stern VS-70 Void Shield (1) Recharge Time 426 seconds (0.2 per second)
Astaroth Kinetics AK-25 Weapons Battery (5x4) Range 250,000km TS: 6,000 km/s Power 15-3.75 RM 50,000 km ROF 20
MK III Energy Weapon Fire Control (2) Max Range: 256,000 km TS: 6,000 km/s 96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
R-9 Stellarator Fusion Reactor (2) Total Power Output 19 Exp 5%
MK III Frigate Active Augur Array (1) GPS 8190 Range 76.2m km Resolution 120
MK III Torpedo Detection Array (1) GPS 21 Range 8.6m km MCR 771.7k km Resolution 1
MK II Thermal Augur Array (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22.4m km
MK III Electromagnetic Augur Array (1) Sensitivity 11 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 26.2m km
ECCM-1 (1) ECM 10
Refit cost is 1733 BP (compared to 1814 BP) for new build, although it includes only 1416 tons of minerals. The obvious con is that I could build a new ship for virtually the same amount. The pros are that I preserve the experienced crew and I don't end up with out of date ships that I have to maintain anyway. With the total tonnage requirement for maintenance in C# Aurora, overall maintenance capacity is a consideration in addition to the required MSP to keep the ship maintained. Regarding the latter point, I suppose the 'cost' of a ship should include the maintenance. The MSP requirement over ten years would be 3x class cost, which is 75% of ship cost in wealth and minerals. When that is considered, the refit cost is a smaller percentage of the whole.
An alternative is a refit that leave some systems, such as weapons, intact and only upgrades engines, shields and electronics. This would cost 1154 BP, of which 942 tons would minerals. The pro is that it is cheaper and therefore I can refit more ships for the same time and cost plus the ship can operate with new Sword IIIs, but it leaves the design much shorter-ranged weapons and no ECM/ECCM..
Sword II - B class Frigate 9,600 tons 290 Crew 1,789.7 BP TCS 192 TH 1,152 EM 2,130
6000 km/s Armour 4-40 Shields 71-426 HTK 64 Sensors 8/11/0/0 DCR 6 PPV 44.32
Maint Life 2.42 Years MSP 699 AFR 123% IFR 1.7% 1YR 164 5YR 2,456 Max Repair 288 MSP
Commander Control Rating 2 BRG AUX
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Morale Check Required
Ravenor RDS-576-B Magneto-Plasma Drive (2) Power 1152 Fuel Use 63.75% Signature 576 Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 611,000 Litres Range 18 billion km (34 days at full power)
Valentinian-Stern VS-70 Void Shield (1) Recharge Time 426 seconds (0.2 per second)
Astaroth Kinetics AK-20 Weapons Battery (4x4) Range 160,000km TS: 6,000 km/s Power 12-4 RM 40,000 km ROF 15
Dominus-Varnus Defence Systems DV-2 Defence Turret (1x6) Range 30,000km TS: 16000 km/s Power 0-0 RM 30,000 km ROF 5
MK I Defence Turret Fire Control (1) Max Range: 64,000 km TS: 16,000 km/s 84 69 53 38 22 6 0 0 0 0
MK III Energy Weapon Fire Control (2) Max Range: 256,000 km TS: 6,000 km/s 96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
R-8 Magnetic Mirror Fusion Reactor (2) Total Power Output 16.6 Exp 5%
MK III Frigate Active Augur Array (1) GPS 8190 Range 76.2m km Resolution 120
MK II Torpedo Detection Array (1) GPS 32 Range 9m km MCR 812.4k km Resolution 1
MK II Thermal Augur Array (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22.4m km
MK III Electromagnetic Augur Array (1) Sensitivity 11 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 26.2m km
Or I just keep the old ships un-refitted and hope I run into a threat against which they would be useful. Currently I am refitting to the II-B design and building a small number of IIIs from scratch, but not I'm not convinced I have the best strategy so interested in opinions.
-
My point of view is simple. It can be painful if your fleet is undergoing refits or is rebuild while an enemy is knocking at the door. This is why I keep them in service until replacements are operational. Small refits are something completely different for me though. Swapping out ECM/ECCM is generally super cheap, fast and a huge improvement for your ship.
Changing the engines or god forbid, even the armor tech is something that goes too far for me. Changing weapons systems can be cost effective though. It is a case to case decision for me.
-
Slowly start building the new ones and keep the old ones. You can use the old ones in secondary defense roles or just PPV boats in the mean time probably.
Eventually you can scrap the old ones.
Right now, if it costs as much to refit theres generally speaking no point in doing so, think about it - if you refit, you get a single up to date frigate, if you build a new one, you have the old one and the new one at the same cost.
-
In my current game, I'm harassed by two alien races. My defence fleets are guarding jump points in rotation.
One fleet or rather a wing is on the jump point, the second one is in overhaul, the third one is in refit or in construction.
I also have two offence fleets, one is on seek and destroy mission second one is in refit right now.
So I tend to refit all my ships when I have an opportunity to do it.
-
I tend to refit all my ships, even when doing so costs as much as constructing new ones. Obviously this will depend on the enemies you're facing, but I usually find out-of-date ships to be next to useless besides for providing PPV. Taking into consideration the extra maintenance costs and the loss of crew grade and training, I almost always think it's worthwhile to refit. Also, I usually find myself more constrained by minerals than by build time, and refitting costs far less than building a new ship in terms of minerals. And besides, if you take into account the time it takes to fully train a fresh crew, refitting ships lets you bring fully-trained, up-to-date ships to the front line more quickly than constructing new ones does.
The main downside is that you can't use the old ships while they're being refitted, so if you need the ships urgently then it could make sense to construct new ones. I think I would only prefer to construct new ships over refitting old ones if I were desperately short on ships or if the old ships were still somewhat competitive with at least one of my enemies (and I had the spare maintenance to support them). In this case, since the older frigates are far outclassed by the enemies you're facing, I would probably refit them, while making sure that some are always available in case I need them urgently.
-
If it were me I would refit ships to the Mk.IIb standard when they are not needed on station and begin new construction on the Mk.III. You retain the crews and can upgrade them the the Mk.III standard later when you have spare economy. In the mean time the Mk.IIb can keep up with your new build ships so as not to slow them down and also present more potential targets in combat, possibly preserving your shiny new ships for longer. Something else to consider is that while the refit is a significant portion of building a new ship it is not MORE than a new ship so it is still a savings, however small.
-
think about it - if you refit, you get a single up to date frigate, if you build a new one, you have the old one and the new one at the same cost.
The problem is it won't be the same cost. I will have twice the tonnage to maintain and you pay for a ship again every thirteen years, not to mention the new ship will have an inexperienced crew while the experienced crew will be in an out-of-date ship. I'm actually leaning toward refitting even with almost the same cost. I created this thread to see if people could talk me out of it :)
-
I created this thread to see if people could talk me out of it :)
I think you have your answer.
Like I said, start with refitting a few to the Mk.IIb first, it keeps your shipyards working but minimizes mineral usage. After a few ships are refit switch focus to new builds and keep refitting a few ships in the background when possible. The IIb might not be as capable as the Mk.III but hopefully the veteran crews will mitigate that.
-
IRL, the limiting factor in the length of time a warship is commisioned for is the hull itself. As the ship travels, it undergoes various types of loading (such as wave impacts), and over time this begins to affect the properties of the hull material until it is no longer suitable for use. Of course, the larger the ship, the slower this process happens (compare HMS Hood or the Kongou-class capital ships of the IJN with the more modern type 23 frigates). A spaceship would still undergo this process, however as things are implimented in game this would have to be accounted for by RP purposes - unless Steve wishes to add a hull-life timer to ships.
Another thing to note is that equipment is often designed for a spicific ship class, and often has to be re-worked to fit a different hull design, but this is usually a quicker process than designing and building from scratch. This could be represented in game by giving a minor de-buff to a component installed as part of a refit.
This would allow for refits to function as a mid-life upgrade to a ship with aging equipment that can be carried out quicker and cheaper than building a whole new ship.
-
In these situations i usually have a tiered upgrade plan:
Mk.2 - Previous Generation Design
Mk.2A3 - which are the new engines
Mk.2B3 new electronics + new engines
(Mk.2M3 includes all new systems if the new mark has new armor, as I never upgrade ships armor)
mk.3 Current Generation Design with all systems and armor included.
I Prebuild components before sending any ships to the shipyards to reduce downtime, however since c# I haven't see it make a difference in yard time.
I normally upgrade ships as they come in for overhaul so they gradually get upgraded and sometimes a ship may jump from original to full upgrade if enough components are prebuilt when it's time in the yard comes.
-
Any refit can be considered as:
# a preliminary partial scrapping of non-fully-effective components with
# a producing of new components by increased (with refitting debuff) price and
# a temporary disabling of non-refitting (still-fully-effective) part of the ship
With this parsing an expediency of refit can be calculated more formally.
-
I really never bother refitting anything else than the electronics. Too time intensive.
Better to build a new ship and scrap the old one when I decide that I don't need it.
-
Usually my approach to refits will depend on my strategic situation, particularly economically but also in terms of personnel.
If my economy is at the limit of what ships it can support, then building new ships is not really feasible and spending the same BP cost to refit an old ship to the new class is worth it if this preserves the crew training, which is probably worth the additional minerals lost from not scrapping the old ship directly. Similar applies if I no longer have enough new commanders to keep staffing new ships.
On the other hand if I can support both new construction and old models, usually my refits will be more limited, mainly to the cheaper electronic components - new fire controls, small sensors, and so on. Maybe also the cheaper small/PD weapons. Expensive parts like armor, engines, jump drives, or main weapon batteries are usually left alone in this case, basically the result are less-capable second-line ships for garrison/PPV and less intensive activities such as cleaning out smaller Precursor outposts.
-
My game I have different empires take different approaches to this issue, partly for flavor.
Keeping extra ships around, even slightly outdated ones, is always a good thing, but money issues come first. Otherwise I prefer deconstructing the ships and building them new instead of retrofitting, because when deconstructing you get minerals and systems (=more minerals) back. You don't get refunded for the replaced systems when you refit. Why is that, anyway?
The crew training is more important for some ships than others, but your rail frigates definitely benefit a lot from it. The question then becomes: how soon do you expect them to be in action again?
-
For the Crew Experience, can you add a mechanic where you can "transfer crew" from one ship to another IF the ship that it is being transferred to is a class that you could have refit to?
So, you could transfer the 284 crew from old ship to new ship that requires 310 with a transfer penalty to training level since they are learning new tech and filling in the roster.
-
I generally retrofit. The reason is, as already said, experience. And experience can be vital in combat, and it's not fast to acquire. Especially for ships which have to act and reacy fast.
Just about the only time I do not retrofit is when I'm changing ship size. Say, it's been some years, I have a lot more yard capacity and so I decide I no longer need a 9000 ton ship because my new minumum will be 12000 or similar.
I do tend to make many small retrofits when I can though. It's rare that I wait until all components need to be upgraded.
Or course, your mileage may vary depending on the situation of the game at hand, but these are my general guidelines
-
I'd probably commit to the full refit, it's still a little cheaper than a new ship, and you are upgrading for a reason, the old version is basically cannon fodder against your latest enemies. The experienced crew is a bonus as well of course.
I too want a mechanic to transfer experienced crew to a new vessel though.
-
I see the crew experience as the confidence all the crew has dealing with the systems, moving around the ship, understand the procedures, etc.
In this meaning, a new ship will imply learning how to use the new systems, how to get around the ship efficiently, and learn new procedures.
Overall I am happy with losing the experience and I wouldn't want to be changed.
In terms of refit I think that Steve, you are a victim of your own choices ;D But it's cool you ask for feedback for something you have created.
I think the answers previous mine have summed it all: either proceed with a few refits at the time rather than a big one or just deal with refits when the time comes. Personally for any Military design, I always refit. Commercial ones are different, I often scrap and build the new ones with recycled components. I then scrap the leftover to recover the few wealth and minerals in it.
-
I generally aim for a sort of tiered approach to ship design, combined with how I direct my research.
I mainly create a completely new design every time I develop new engines - those are large, expensive, and use valuable minerals (gallicite), so I almost never refit with new engines. I also almost never refit armor or shield generators - a lot of cost for a marginal improvement, and from a purely pragmatic perspective if the older ships are easier to destroy, they're also less valuable. So in an ideal world, I try to concentrate research so I get my new engine, armor, and shields done at a similar time to base the new design on.
Once I have my new design, I focus on researching things I will upgrade. Sensors, fire controls, and ECM are obvious candidates for upgrades, as they give a large performance increase for a small refit cost. Heavy beam weapons are another example - range is king in beam combat, so a new heavy railgun with 30,000 km longer range is something I consider worth the refit cost, as are magazines, though in both cases I try to keep ship tonnage as close as possible to minimize refit costs (and changes to the armor). As these finish I create a (b) variant, or even (c) and (d), to refit older ships to and new ones are built to that standard to begin with.
That leaves missile launchers and point defense weapons as somewhere in the middle - they're reasonably large and expensive to replace, but less so than engines or armor, and are generally pretty useful even at lower tech levels purely by weight of numbers. I may refit these components or I may not, mostly depending on opportunity costs (IE if I'm trying to expand my navy anyways I'll just build new ones, whereas if I'm content with my current forces I'll usually just pay to upgrade).
Then when I develop new engines/armor/shields the cycle begins again, with a II (or III, IV, etc) model utilizing those upgrades (new generations are also usually larger than the previous one). The b or c models of the older generation stick around for awhile, usually formed into their own fleets so they don't slow down newer, faster ships, but they don't usually get new refits after that point (why spend money on new fire controls for older ships when you could build new, faster ships?). I'd say that they get the less important jobs like guarding frontier colonies but that would be a lie - since I know I'm going to scrap the older ships eventually they usually get grabbed for the most dangerous assignments, like jump point assaults or investigating destroyed survey ships. I'm very ruthlessly pragmatic that way, and if I were doing more RPing I'd probably place a higher value on their commanders and crew.
-
i pretty much don't refit anything but fire controls and electronic warfare. my ships tend to grow pretty aggressively as my tech advances (because my economy is growing and i just don't want zillions of counters to push around), so even with refits an old ship never truly matches fleet standard.
feel keeping old hulls active is one of the central objectives for the RP types, though. for them i reckon it's more a question of "what's the least wasteful way of keeping bessie here relevant to the plot?". tbh bessie probably indeed has more individuality than any of weber's quote-unquote characters
-
I'm in the camp of not refitting the most expensive components such as engines, armour and some of the more less efficient components. Things like electronics and beam weapons are just fine to replace most of the time and if you refit in stages cost are not being huge.
Ships are either relegated to other support duties... an old frigate or destroyer might become a system defense force or support ship escort where it's speed is not as important for example. With updated electronics and weapons a ship can still be pretty good for a long time.
As ships also tend to increase in size over time then refitting ships become a non issue as it is simply not desirable.
So... some ships get reassigned into a new role and some will simply be scrapped to make room for a larger more capable ship to replace them. A typical Destroyer class ship with a fleet escort role will for example grow from 8-10kt to perhaps 25kt at a later stage. Those small 8kt ships simply don fit into the role of fleet escort anymore, they simply lack the capabilities even if modernized with all components.
-
I'm faced with a situation where almost every tech has advanced since the last round of refits, so the cost to refit is almost the same as building new. I wondered what other people do in this situation.
Here is the existing Sword class frigate:
Sword II class Frigate 9,375 tons 284 Crew 1,571 BP TCS 187 TH 900 EM 1,380
4800 km/s Armour 4-39 Shields 46-368 HTK 64 Sensors 6/8/0/0 DCR 6 PPV 44.32
Maint Life 2.65 Years MSP 628 AFR 117% IFR 1.6% 1YR 127 5YR 1,902 Max Repair 225 MSP
Commander Control Rating 2 BRG AUX
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Morale Check Required
Ravenor Drive Systems RDS-450B Ion Drive (2) Power 900 Fuel Use 63.75% Signature 450 Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 656,000 Litres Range 19.8 billion km (47 days at full power)
Valentinian-Stern VS-46 Void Shield (1) Recharge Time 368 seconds (0.1 per second)
Astaroth Kinetics AK-20 Weapons Battery (4x4) Range 160,000km TS: 4,800 km/s Power 12-4 RM 40,000 km ROF 15
Dominus-Varnus Defence Systems DV-2 Defence Turret (1x6) Range 30,000km TS: 16000 km/s Power 0-0 RM 30,000 km ROF 5
MK I Defence Turret Fire Control (1) Max Range: 64,000 km TS: 16,000 km/s 84 69 53 38 22 6 0 0 0 0
MK II Energy Weapon Fire Control (2) Max Range: 256,000 km TS: 4,800 km/s 96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
R-8 Magnetic Mirror Fusion Reactor (2) Total Power Output 16.6 Exp 5%
MK II Frigate Active Augur Array (1) GPS 8640 Range 66.8m km Resolution 120
MK II Torpedo Detection Array (1) GPS 32 Range 9m km MCR 812.4k km Resolution 1
MK I Thermal Augur Array (1) Sensitivity 6 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 19.4m km
MK II Electromagnetic Augur Array (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22.4m km
Here is the latest design. Apart from the obvious new engines, I have to add fire controls that match the higher speed. Better weapons are available and I also have ECM/ECCM, improved sensors and improved shields.
Sword III class Frigate 9,600 tons 310 Crew 1,814.3 BP TCS 192 TH 1,152 EM 2,130
6000 km/s Armour 4-40 Shields 71-426 HTK 70 Sensors 8/11/0/0 DCR 6 PPV 40
Maint Life 2.44 Years MSP 708 AFR 123% IFR 1.7% 1YR 163 5YR 2,452 Max Repair 288 MSP
Commander Control Rating 2 BRG AUX
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Morale Check Required
Ravenor RDS-576-B Magneto-Plasma Drive (2) Power 1152 Fuel Use 63.75% Signature 576 Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 642,000 Litres Range 18.9 billion km (36 days at full power)
Valentinian-Stern VS-70 Void Shield (1) Recharge Time 426 seconds (0.2 per second)
Astaroth Kinetics AK-25 Weapons Battery (5x4) Range 250,000km TS: 6,000 km/s Power 15-3.75 RM 50,000 km ROF 20
MK III Energy Weapon Fire Control (2) Max Range: 256,000 km TS: 6,000 km/s 96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
R-9 Stellarator Fusion Reactor (2) Total Power Output 19 Exp 5%
MK III Frigate Active Augur Array (1) GPS 8190 Range 76.2m km Resolution 120
MK III Torpedo Detection Array (1) GPS 21 Range 8.6m km MCR 771.7k km Resolution 1
MK II Thermal Augur Array (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22.4m km
MK III Electromagnetic Augur Array (1) Sensitivity 11 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 26.2m km
ECCM-1 (1) ECM 10
Refit cost is 1733 BP (compared to 1814 BP) for new build, although it includes only 1416 tons of minerals. The obvious con is that I could build a new ship for virtually the same amount. The pros are that I preserve the experienced crew and I don't end up with out of date ships that I have to maintain anyway. With the total tonnage requirement for maintenance in C# Aurora, overall maintenance capacity is a consideration in addition to the required MSP to keep the ship maintained. Regarding the latter point, I suppose the 'cost' of a ship should include the maintenance. The MSP requirement over ten years would be 3x class cost, which is 75% of ship cost in wealth and minerals. When that is considered, the refit cost is a smaller percentage of the whole.
An alternative is a refit that leave some systems, such as weapons, intact and only upgrades engines, shields and electronics. This would cost 1154 BP, of which 942 tons would minerals. The pro is that it is cheaper and therefore I can refit more ships for the same time and cost plus the ship can operate with new Sword IIIs, but it leaves the design much shorter-ranged weapons and no ECM/ECCM..
Sword II - B class Frigate 9,600 tons 290 Crew 1,789.7 BP TCS 192 TH 1,152 EM 2,130
6000 km/s Armour 4-40 Shields 71-426 HTK 64 Sensors 8/11/0/0 DCR 6 PPV 44.32
Maint Life 2.42 Years MSP 699 AFR 123% IFR 1.7% 1YR 164 5YR 2,456 Max Repair 288 MSP
Commander Control Rating 2 BRG AUX
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Morale Check Required
Ravenor RDS-576-B Magneto-Plasma Drive (2) Power 1152 Fuel Use 63.75% Signature 576 Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 611,000 Litres Range 18 billion km (34 days at full power)
Valentinian-Stern VS-70 Void Shield (1) Recharge Time 426 seconds (0.2 per second)
Astaroth Kinetics AK-20 Weapons Battery (4x4) Range 160,000km TS: 6,000 km/s Power 12-4 RM 40,000 km ROF 15
Dominus-Varnus Defence Systems DV-2 Defence Turret (1x6) Range 30,000km TS: 16000 km/s Power 0-0 RM 30,000 km ROF 5
MK I Defence Turret Fire Control (1) Max Range: 64,000 km TS: 16,000 km/s 84 69 53 38 22 6 0 0 0 0
MK III Energy Weapon Fire Control (2) Max Range: 256,000 km TS: 6,000 km/s 96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
R-8 Magnetic Mirror Fusion Reactor (2) Total Power Output 16.6 Exp 5%
MK III Frigate Active Augur Array (1) GPS 8190 Range 76.2m km Resolution 120
MK II Torpedo Detection Array (1) GPS 32 Range 9m km MCR 812.4k km Resolution 1
MK II Thermal Augur Array (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22.4m km
MK III Electromagnetic Augur Array (1) Sensitivity 11 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 26.2m km
Or I just keep the old ships un-refitted and hope I run into a threat against which they would be useful. Currently I am refitting to the II-B design and building a small number of IIIs from scratch, but not I'm not convinced I have the best strategy so interested in opinions.
Honestly, i would just refit the minimum amount of components as possible. Meaning the sensors for better tracking speed, i would probably make it more cost efficient engines if possible, so they would require less BP, however it would be more endurance, then i would just refit the point defense, maybe lower the armaments a little and reassign it to Lesser escort roles for civillian ships or make it fit for patrol, lesser planetary defense, etc.
The reason for this is that by this point you lose twice if you refit. First you will lose one ship, as the build order will take the same amount of time and more resources to produce a lesser ship. And it will be lesser because you can redesign a new ship to perform better with the new systems, it will probably reduce the BP required too.
Second, for the price you are paying, you are stuck with a lesser, expensive ship instead of having one obsolete and one top Notch ship. So reassignment or scrapping are both options on this one. I would just go for reassignment and if you really have to refit, make it for a endurance type of ship instead of going for speed and you have a secondary protection or patrol fleet. And if chosen the refit route, i would probably take out most of the ship's weapons and go heavy on defense missile, would avoid having to use magazines for it tough, so 12-36 box launchers for each ship, and gauss cannons for PD. That would do the trick to protect civililian ships, supplement Defense batteries around planets (in this case you dont even have to mess with the engines).
-
think about it - if you refit, you get a single up to date frigate, if you build a new one, you have the old one and the new one at the same cost.
The problem is it won't be the same cost. I will have twice the tonnage to maintain and you pay for a ship again every thirteen years, not to mention the new ship will have an inexperienced crew while the experienced crew will be in an out-of-date ship. I'm actually leaning toward refitting even with almost the same cost. I created this thread to see if people could talk me out of it :)
well, about the experienced crew - with a month/year-long refit the exp could decline - or much better - allow the transfer of crew to an other ship with looses say 10-25% of the exp points (so the other vessel starts with more exp than when it would otherwise - transfer could be limmited to only mil-mil and civ-civ
this would allow a new role to training-ships (transfering the crew to a new build one instead of adding to the "pool" ) and solve your "problem" :D
-
It can be implemented a bit easier, I think: just make separate pools for green and fully-trained crews, and feel the latter only with smth like CrewSize*CurrentCrewGrade/MaxCrewGrade after scrapping, refitting with a reduction of crew size and by a Crew Rotation command/button.
-
I'm faced with a situation where almost every tech has advanced since the last round of refits, so the cost to refit is almost the same as building new. I wondered what other people do in this situation.
I would role-play it. Do I need extra weapons power, more ships to keep the enemy away - then I would build new ships. But if I can manage everything with what I have then keeping the experienced crews on modern ships would be worthwhile.
-
I refit the majority of the time, but I do so earlier and more often. It winds up being more expensive over time, but keeping the crew experience has been (generally) worth it if I have hostile NPR's in action.
The delay in crew training is a real drag in the naval pipeline, so keeping the experience is worth it to me. Especially if there is shooting going on. Not to mention the whole officer shuffle that goes on if you scrap and build new. If you want the new ship trained up fast, it means putting an experienced (and more valuable) officer in charge of a ship thats not going to be available for months.
Now, if there is no threat, than the time investment isnt that much of an issue, so new build is the cheaper route to go. Even then I hate giving up experience crews.
-
I'm faced with a situation where almost every tech has advanced since the last round of refits, so the cost to refit is almost the same as building new. I wondered what other people do in this situation.
I would role-play it. Do I need extra weapons power, more ships to keep the enemy away - then I would build new ships. But if I can manage everything with what I have then keeping the experienced crews on modern ships would be worthwhile.
If role-play is a significant factor (which is normally is for me), then I probably should just refit. In WH40k, the Imperium has the same ships in service for thousands of years.
-
I'm faced with a situation where almost every tech has advanced since the last round of refits, so the cost to refit is almost the same as building new. I wondered what other people do in this situation.
I would role-play it. Do I need extra weapons power, more ships to keep the enemy away - then I would build new ships. But if I can manage everything with what I have then keeping the experienced crews on modern ships would be worthwhile.
If role-play is a significant factor (which is normally is for me), then I probably should just refit. In WH40k, the Imperium has the same ships in service for thousands of years.
Your Imperium is more in the Great Crusade era where they actually built stuff, but yeah flavor wise refitting still makes more sense.
-
I almost always refit as much as possible, something about seeing the "same" ships in service as long as possible tickles my fancy.