Aurora 4x

C# Aurora => General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve Walmsley on September 27, 2024, 10:05:04 AM

Title: Considering Freepik
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 27, 2024, 10:05:04 AM
I've been playing around with AI images for a while, mostly in DALL-E, but more recently using Freepik's AI. I've been experimenting with the stock images available in FreePik and the various transforms you can do.

As a result, I am considering taking a Premium subscription to FreePik and using it to create a complete set of graphic images for Aurora, including ships, stations, races, flags, etc, plus probably the main toolbar buttons and maybe even pictures for commanders, although the last one is tricky given the potential variety in race customisation and number of commanders, so maybe it would be above a certain rank, or for player-selected commanders, etc.

For the ships and stations, it is possible to have them with and without backgrounds, allowing more interesting race hull pictures including the ship and a background, but displaying only the ship itself as an icon on the map. I am sure there would be lot of other options once I got used to it.

All the images, either generated or downloaded, come with a licence.

So, before I embark on what is likely to be a time-consuming exercise, I am interested to hear opinions on FreePik, the value of the credits you get, any pitfalls I should be aware of, etc., plus any thoughts on the graphics ideas mentioned above.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Louella on September 27, 2024, 11:43:08 AM
That would be interesting.

My thought would be that AI has a tendency towards looking kind of generic, unless given particularly distinct instructions, so maybe something that needs a bit of experimentation. You might get some interesting pictures if you give the AI more instructions. Like, instead of "futuristic" or "military", try more outlandish things like "baroque space station", "gothic alien space ship" and so on. Something to play about with.

I'm not sure about commander pictures, because one of the other things with AI generated art, is consistency and reproducibility. Like, for commanders you'd maybe want a couple hundred portraits. For each species and theme combination. And I think it'd be difficult to get a sufficient amount of pictures with a consistent look to them.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: nuclearslurpee on September 27, 2024, 12:17:31 PM
Personally, I wouldn't use it, as I tend to either acquire, make, or reuse graphical assets specific to my campaign settings, plus I never like the look of AI art anyways. That said, this sounds nice for players who don't put that much work into their roleplay settings as the current set of images can be hit or miss.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Panopticon on September 27, 2024, 01:04:46 PM
In general I feel like AI generated stuff is morally bankrupt and contributing to the destruction of the environment. OTOH, so is the entire tech infrastructure and you wouldn't be using it for profit so go for it.

I do have a knee-jerk "Who needs pretty pictures" response, but I assume that is because I am old now. I am not sure if the improvements, such as they are, from using it would be worth the time you spend figuring it out, but you are the only judge of that of course.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 27, 2024, 01:57:06 PM
That would be interesting.

My thought would be that AI has a tendency towards looking kind of generic, unless given particularly distinct instructions, so maybe something that needs a bit of experimentation. You might get some interesting pictures if you give the AI more instructions. Like, instead of "futuristic" or "military", try more outlandish things like "baroque space station", "gothic alien space ship" and so on. Something to play about with.

I'm not sure about commander pictures, because one of the other things with AI generated art, is consistency and reproducibility. Like, for commanders you'd maybe want a couple hundred portraits. For each species and theme combination. And I think it'd be difficult to get a sufficient amount of pictures with a consistent look to them.

Yes, I thought so too about the AI pictures. However, the benefit of Freepik is access to millions of images generated by other people, with some amazing premium images created by graphic artists - including thousands of existing ship pictures, which are extremely varied - unlike my own initial attempts which all looked rather similar in style. It was this vast library of images that made me consider the potential.

If I decide to go with this idea, I will post some on here - but don't want to do that without the licence.

Agree commanders will be tricky. However, there is a tool that allows a lot of variations on a common theme, so I will play around with that,
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 27, 2024, 02:03:11 PM
In general I feel like AI generated stuff is morally bankrupt and contributing to the destruction of the environment. OTOH, so is the entire tech infrastructure and you wouldn't be using it for profit so go for it.

I do have a knee-jerk "Who needs pretty pictures" response, but I assume that is because I am old now. I am not sure if the improvements, such as they are, from using it would be worth the time you spend figuring it out, but you are the only judge of that of course.

AI is here to stay now. I use it for work in a lot of different ways (I am doing some consulting while travelling), whether searching, analysis, getting programming tips, etc., it is very useful as a competent assistant that does a lot of grunt work. It is still wrong sometimes (and confident when wrong, until you point it out and it suddenly pretends it knew that all along).

In terms of graphics, there is still a human element in making it work well. I imagine people who used to do tech drawing were not a fan of computer-aided design, or photographers didn't like photoshop, etc. Technology moves on and its usually the people adopting the technology that benefit. Every time there is new tech, old jobs disappear and new jobs are created.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Kaiser on September 27, 2024, 04:41:56 PM
Hi Steve, if I understood correctly, you do not want/cannot use these images to replace the dot on the main map?

If not, do you have any plan to do that? I back with this request once again, replacing fleet dots with standard high quality tiny images would be absolutely cool, missiles as well and maybe planets asteroid and stars.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 27, 2024, 04:54:53 PM
Hi Steve, if I understood correctly, you do not want/cannot use these images to replace the dot on the main map?

If not, do you have any plan to do that? I back with this request once again, replacing fleet dots with standard high quality tiny images would be absolutely cool, missiles as well and maybe planets asteroid and stars.

I've done it in the past, replacing the dots with NATO standard icons similar to the old harpoon computer games. It's far too crowded, and virtually unreadable, so I went back to dots.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Louella on September 27, 2024, 05:21:49 PM
However, the benefit of Freepik is access to millions of images generated by other people, with some amazing premium images created by graphic artists - including thousands of existing ship pictures, which are extremely varied - unlike my own initial attempts which all looked rather similar in style. It was this vast library of images that made me consider the potential.

Ooo, interesting. That should make it quite a bit easier to have distinct variations for ships&stations for many different species and themes.

Quote
Agree commanders will be tricky. However, there is a tool that allows a lot of variations on a common theme, so I will play around with that,

That does sound useful.

My thought there is that you'd still need rather a lot of images. Like... for commander portraits, you'd need several dozen so that there'd be low incidences of repeats. And people would probably want several distinct themes for human commanders alone. Plus the question of having different portraits for Navy, Army, Scientist, Administrator characters.

Like... say you want just 100 distinct alien species (compared to the 300 or so ingame currently). And then say 40 character portraits for each species - just 10 for each character type. that's 4000 images, just for a very limited selection. Seems like a thing that could easily balloon to difficult-to-manage proportions.

Another thought that occurs, is that with portraits, then the currently trivial issue with commanders being male/female would need sorted. I can easily ignore when it refers to a female character with the message such as "medical problem forcing him to retire". It's less easy to ignore when portraits don't match.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Froggiest1982 on September 27, 2024, 06:14:08 PM
I support the idea, especially regarding commander faces. In my opinion, Shadow Empire does an excellent job, even if some people have recently criticized the approach. They feel it’s obvious that content is generated and rightly expect more from corporations or paid games in general.

However, I don’t think you should be concerned about this. After all, it's a free-to-use project, and you’re not doing this full-time. Anything that can enhance Aurora without requiring too much of your time on coding new features and fixing bugs is a positive development.

Off-Topic: show
If I may suggest since you’re exploring this direction, I wonder how feasible it would be to integrate nice features like a random flag generator or any other randomly generated content, with or without AI assistance.

From my perspective, while there may be a steeper learning curve in coding at the beginning, once implemented, you could simply add a folder with AI-generated content, such as hairstyles, eyes, and more. You could start with basic assets, and like other folders, the community could contribute by creating or modifying existing assets. The same applies to the flags.

Ultimately, my only concern is that even if you’re using AI to enhance the existing base models, as others have mentioned, there’s a wealth of content already being released or utilized by many of us. It might be worth your time to explore integrating this content directly into the main folders or partnering with creators to develop something for you, following your guidance and requirements.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Panopticon on September 27, 2024, 11:29:12 PM
In general I feel like AI generated stuff is morally bankrupt and contributing to the destruction of the environment. OTOH, so is the entire tech infrastructure and you wouldn't be using it for profit so go for it.

I do have a knee-jerk "Who needs pretty pictures" response, but I assume that is because I am old now. I am not sure if the improvements, such as they are, from using it would be worth the time you spend figuring it out, but you are the only judge of that of course.

AI is here to stay now. I use it for work in a lot of different ways (I am doing some consulting while travelling), whether searching, analysis, getting programming tips, etc., it is very useful as a competent assistant that does a lot of grunt work. It is still wrong sometimes (and confident when wrong, until you point it out and it suddenly pretends it knew that all along).

In terms of graphics, there is still a human element in making it work well. I imagine people who used to do tech drawing were not a fan of computer-aided design, or photographers didn't like photoshop, etc. Technology moves on and its usually the people adopting the technology that benefit. Every time there is new tech, old jobs disappear and new jobs are created.

No arguments there. Using it for something like this is kind of almost an ideal use case, for the various reasons stated already.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Amos Burton on September 28, 2024, 04:57:27 AM
Hi Steve, longtime player/lurker, first time poster.

I personally think this would be a terrible idea. AI art actively turns me off of projects that use it. I was critical of the original graphics of Shadow Empire, but somehow the AI portraits made it even worse. I was on the edge about buying Sins of a Solar Empire 2, and what ultimately made me hold off is the awful AI art they threw in everywhere. For me it just feels bad to spend time looking at images that nobody spent the time creating. Just soulless remixes of art that actually was created by human hands with intent. If you went through with this, I would be desperate for an option to restore the original graphics.

But beyond my personal preferences, I also just don't really see the practicality here. I don't think anyone is playing Aurora for the graphics, they're playing it for the amazing simulation and the gameplay that creates. You can already do so much with the existing customization options. I'm curious what benefit you're looking for here beyond going down the AI road for the sake of it.

Of course at the end of the day this is your project that you have blessed us all with, so if working with image generating algorithms is just something that makes you happy then who am I to tell you it's a bad idea. I just personally believe that sometimes less is more, and for me Aurora is already a pretty game to look at.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 28, 2024, 06:33:39 AM
Hi Steve, longtime player/lurker, first time poster.

I personally think this would be a terrible idea. AI art actively turns me off of projects that use it. I was critical of the original graphics of Shadow Empire, but somehow the AI portraits made it even worse. I was on the edge about buying Sins of a Solar Empire 2, and what ultimately made me hold off is the awful AI art they threw in everywhere. For me it just feels bad to spend time looking at images that nobody spent the time creating. Just soulless remixes of art that actually was created by human hands with intent. If you went through with this, I would be desperate for an option to restore the original graphics.

But beyond my personal preferences, I also just don't really see the practicality here. I don't think anyone is playing Aurora for the graphics, they're playing it for the amazing simulation and the gameplay that creates. You can already do so much with the existing customization options. I'm curious what benefit you're looking for here beyond going down the AI road for the sake of it.

Of course at the end of the day this is your project that you have blessed us all with, so if working with image generating algorithms is just something that makes you happy then who am I to tell you it's a bad idea. I just personally believe that sometimes less is more, and for me Aurora is already a pretty game to look at.

Nothing I add would prevent you using the existing art if that is preferable, or using your own creations. People already create their own art for all the things I am considering changing, plus commander portraits - if added - would be optional.

In terms of benefit (for me personally), I am already using some AI images in my current campaign - some created by me and some free content - so I am looking to improve the quality of images by accessing premium content and transforms.

For example, here is one of the AI images I generated myself using a free AI for ships of a potential Arachnid spoiler race I am considering.

(http://www.pentarch.org/steve/Screenshots/Example001.png)

Below are a few quick *low quality* example screenshots of some of the available content I am considering purchasing (there are thousands of them and they can be modified). For these types of images, you can use a better quality image than the picture above on various windows, but I can lift the ship only (removing the background and making it transparent), so you can use it as an icon on the Galactic map. For that matter, I can take a ship and create a completely different background, although that is more expensive in terms of processing cost. Theoretically, I could use the icons for all races on the tactical map, but I am concerned about clutter - maybe an optional popup icon if moused-over. I could also look to create related images, so they can be used a set for different classes.

As this technology progresses, imagination is going to be the limiting factor. For someone like me, who is terrible at graphics, the option to explain to an AI how to create and modify images, is going to be a game-changer. Obviously, its not good for graphic artists who don't want to use AI, but for those who do adopt it, their output is going to massively increase. If I decide to go ahead and pay for content, rather than tinkering as I have done so far, the creator of each image I download will receive a small amount (and from everyone else who uses it too).

(http://www.pentarch.org/steve/Screenshots/Example002.png)

(http://www.pentarch.org/steve/Screenshots/Example003.png)

(http://www.pentarch.org/steve/Screenshots/Example004.png)

(http://www.pentarch.org/steve/Screenshots/Example005.png)

(http://www.pentarch.org/steve/Screenshots/Example006.png)

Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: King-Salomon on September 28, 2024, 08:18:34 AM
I like the pictures :)

@ commander-pictures:

my dream would be a layer of parts that would create a commander-picture (like a very simplyfied 2D version of Crusader Kings 2 porträts), something like this:

- Uniform/Body (navy/army/admin - male/female - different ranks 1-10 or 1-X)
- faces (male/female - european/african/asian/polynesian etc - different faces - mayyyyyybe even 3 different ages per face)
- Hair (male/female - different hairstyles - different colors)
- Beards
- assessoirs (glases, ziggar...)

the commander picture would be generated with creation of the commander - like Uniformtype f15 - face asianf41-1 - hair f43

- the uniform layer would be updated with promotion
(- face would be updated with age of 40 & 80)

with this a lot of different commander portraits could be automatical disigned - the player could select/copy the Uniform/faces etc he prefers from different folders into a game folder - Steve wouldn't have to create the graphics, this could be done by the community - if Aurora would provide the mechanics for it

no idea if something like this would be doable with a manageable effort but I guess for commander portraits it whould provide the biggest diversity
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: paolot on September 28, 2024, 08:42:18 AM
Maybe I am "art-blind", but these images seem to me all the same.
The second with the fourth, and all the rest together.
Some details try to let them appear different. But I feel in them the same "underlying philosophy", even with their variability.
So, unfortunately, I don't like them (as for the images AI generated that I have seen until now (or, at least, the ones I knew were AI generated)).
If they will be implemented in the game, I hope we could choose to stay with traditional graphics and images.

Off-Topic: show

Off topic, maybe.
Look at these planes:
P-38, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-38_Lightning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-38_Lightning)
U-2, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2)
F-104, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter)
SR-71, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_SR-71_Blackbird (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_SR-71_Blackbird)
They were all designed and drawn by the same person: Kelly Johnson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Johnson_(engineer) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Johnson_(engineer))).
In my opinion, they prove how strong and adaptable the imagination of humanity can be.
I feel the actual state of AI (and I fear for many years to come still) is far, far away from this, because its development is driven by little or no artistic awareness.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Kristover on September 28, 2024, 08:48:21 AM
I am intrigued by the idea.  I’ve actually never really cared for the included pix in Aurora because the flags and pics I recognize from other properties tend to pull me out of my head canon I create for my games - but honestly not so much that I care greatly and I can always change them if I get a particularly obnoxious combo.  Having an AI generated image even if it is lower quality would address that concern for me - ships and flags and race pics would be the things I would like to see.

Ultimately I would say do what you want - it’s your project and you are sharing it with us for free.  If a person is so turned off by the usage of AI generated art that they would drop Aurora then it isn’t like you are losing any income over it.  No one that comes here for a game like this which honestly you can’t really find anywhere else would leave over freepix anyways imho.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Zap0 on September 28, 2024, 11:04:28 AM
As far as I'm piecing your intention here together is that you want to replace the tiny 90's style icons for ships and images we can select with generated ones, and maybe add a few more icon types for commander faces and such. Maybe give the UI icons an overhaul.

Doesn't seem like a big change; do whatever.


Much more interesting would be an integrated image generator for ship/missile designs, an overhauled iconized UI or visualizations of space battle results, but that, much like the idea for that dynamic commander portrait generator, seem beyond your intent in this thread. Correct?
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 28, 2024, 11:12:44 AM
As far as I'm piecing your intention here together is that you want to replace the tiny 90's style icons for ships and images we can select with generated ones, and maybe add a few more icon types for commander faces and such. Maybe give the UI icons an overhaul.

Doesn't seem like a big change; do whatever.


Much more interesting would be an integrated image generator for ship/missile designs, an overhauled iconized UI or visualizations of space battle results, but that, much like the idea for that dynamic commander portrait generator, seem beyond your intent in this thread. Correct?

Yes, short term its about overhauling the existing images used in-game. Longer-term, some kind of composite images for commanders would be possible, although tricker. I need to learn more about it. You can actually link to the AI online and generate images from your software, but there is a fee involved, so I don't plan to implement that.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Desdinova on September 28, 2024, 12:36:57 PM
Personally, I am philosophically opposed to AI 'art'.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Garfunkel on September 28, 2024, 06:42:08 PM
Replacing the existing buttons and images that are from existing sci-fi franchises would be a good improvement. Beyond that, it doesn't really matter to me as I hardly use the images anyway. I have my head canon and that's that.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Droll on September 28, 2024, 08:11:50 PM
I play with the Solaris theme mod which IMO has much better images for the main menu bar than what vanilla comes with. Idk if there is anything licensed in there but it might be worth taking a look at instead of using AI for those.

As for ship icons, I don't really know if it matters as has been mentioned in this thread before it sounds like most people who care already just use custom images, which doesn't exclude AI anyways.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Rezza on September 29, 2024, 04:25:11 AM
Speaking of the Solaris theme - where can I download it from? The forum page for it says there's a link to the zip file at the bottom of the first post but it's not there (at least, it's not showing for me).

I'm new to the game, just learning, but wanted to make it a bit easier on the eyes.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Desdinova on September 29, 2024, 10:51:00 AM
Also, honestly, replacing the graphics and buttons is not an art task, it's a graphic design task. Buttons should be readable and have a consistent style, and I think you're less likely to get a good result from AI than say, asking for community submissions. I'm sure someone would volunteer to do a pass over the button designs.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 29, 2024, 11:32:00 AM
Also, honestly, replacing the graphics and buttons is not an art task, it's a graphic design task. Buttons should be readable and have a consistent style, and I think you're less likely to get a good result from AI than say, asking for community submissions. I'm sure someone would volunteer to do a pass over the button designs.

I'm always a little wary of asking for submissions, as I will have to turn down people if there are multiple submissions. Even if only one and I decide not to use it, it still seems like denigrating someone's efforts. However, if anyone does want to submit buttons and doesn't mind if I choose not to use them, then I would be very happy to take a look.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: jahwillprovide on November 19, 2024, 11:42:02 AM
It made me legitimately laugh out loud seeing all these AI only makes bad stuff comments and then you dropped those amazing ship photos. AI is here to stay as you said and technology exists to make man have to do less work. Thank you for embracing the present I use it to handle small work tasks as well.
Title: Re: Considering Freepik
Post by: Froggiest1982 on November 19, 2024, 05:57:31 PM
Also, honestly, replacing the graphics and buttons is not an art task, it's a graphic design task. Buttons should be readable and have a consistent style, and I think you're less likely to get a good result from AI than say, asking for community submissions. I'm sure someone would volunteer to do a pass over the button designs.

I'm always a little wary of asking for submissions, as I will have to turn down people if there are multiple submissions. Even if only one and I decide not to use it, it still seems like denigrating someone's efforts. However, if anyone does want to submit buttons and doesn't mind if I choose not to use them, then I would be very happy to take a look.

Hi Steve, can you provide guidelines such as image format, pixels and or any other relevant info? I might give it a go.