Aurora 4x
C# Aurora => C# Bureau of Design => Topic started by: Razgriz on October 03, 2024, 04:15:52 PM
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I'm experimenting using endgame tech but I'm still new to ship design. How can I improve this design. Its designed to patrol settled systems moving between populated colonies in Groups. All my ships are missile focused.
Arg class Patrol Vessel 2,806 tons 51 Crew 1,554.2 BP TCS 56 TH 1,200 EM 150
21383 km/s Armour 1-17 Shields 5-100 HTK 25 Sensors 7/7/0/0 DCR 31-50 PPV 12.38
Maint Life 2.90 Years MSP 346 AFR 63% IFR 0.9% 1YR 61 5YR 912 Max Repair 218.8 MSP
Magazine 76 / 0 Cryogenic Berths 200
Commander Control Rating 1 BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months Morale Check Required
AGI ARG QSD (2) Power 1200 Fuel Use 1.61% Signature 600 Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 60,000 Litres Range 238.5 billion km (129 days at full power)
AGI Omega S5 / R100 Shields (1) Recharge Time 100 seconds (0.1 per second)
AGI 10cm Railgun V90/C6.25/S1 (1) Range 87,500km TS: 25,000 km/s Power 0.75-6.25 RM 90,000 km ROF 5
AGI Beam Fire Control R88-TS25000 (SW) (5%) (1) Max Range: 87,500 km TS: 25,000 km/s ECCM-10 89 77 66 54 43 31 20 9 0 0
AGI Quantum Singularity Power Plant R7-PB100 (1) Total Power Output 6.6 Exp 50%
AGI BROADSWORD VLS (8) Missile Size: 7 Hangar Reload 132 minutes MF Reload 22 hours
AGI DART VLS (20) Missile Size: 1 Hangar Reload 50 minutes MF Reload 8 hours
AGI BROADSWORD MFC FC192-R100 (5%) (1) Range 192.4m km Resolution 100 ECCM-10
AGI DART MFC FC35-R1 (5%) (1) Range 35.9m km Resolution 1 ECCM-10
AGI DART AMM (20) Speed: 270,000 km/s End: 0.2m Range: 3.1m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 1440/864/432
AGI BROADSWORD TORPEDO (8) Speed: 270,000 km/s End: 4m Range: 65.4m km WH: 72 Size: 7 TH: 1440/864/432
AGI EM Sensor EM0.1-7.5 (5%) (1) Sensitivity 7.5 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 21.7m km
AGI Thermal Sensor TH0.1-7.5 (5%) (1) Sensitivity 7.5 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 21.7m km
Electronic Warfare Jammers: Sensor 10 Fire Control 10 Missile 10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
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That is a pretty good patrol boat. I think you might have forgotten to up its deployment time though. Also, is there an active sensor on another ship?
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It's a good beginner design, and I don't see any critical flaws in it which will render it inoperable. That said, there are a few ways you can improve on it.
From top to bottom:
1. The DCR tells me you're using damage control, which weighs down the ship by good 150 tons without providing much benefit (lack of armor and shields will ensure it dies before making use of its damage control, and instant repairs will quickly run into lack of MSP). This weight is better used in more engineering, fuel, and deployment time.
1. 1. On topic of engineering, I'd recommend having at least twice as much MSP as Max Repair, to allow for on-board repairs of the most expensive part of your ship. Max Repair lists the cost of maintaining such part; repairs will require double.
2. Cryo berths also weigh it down a little, but I presume they're there for RP reasons. If they aren't, they can safely be removed; since the boat will be patrolling between populated colonies, there'll always be one close by to drop survivors and POWs.
3. The deployment time could be a little higher.
4. This ship is slow by the Quantum Singularity standards. If it's meant to move around escorting commercial ships, it's fine, and low-boost engines also makes the patrol ship very cheap; but keep in mind that at this tech level it's easy to push 50kkm/s or more.
5. The only thing in terms of defense this ship has is its ECM suite and range of its missiles. 5 points of shield is not stopping anything, and even if they did, you're better off making a properly-sized shield. The capacity of small shields is very heavily penalized.
5. 1. Not to mention that full ECM suite is good 450 tons of extra weight for your ship. Fire Control and Missile jammers can be very useful, but the Sensor one is a lot more dubious.
6. The railgun doesn't need such high capacitor recharge rate. 10cm railguns achieve their maximum rate of fire at Capacitor Recharge Rate 3, and you have 25. (The "Power" row in the description lists the power you need to fire the gun as first number, and the amount of power it's getting in 5 seconds as a second number. Excess power is wasted.)
7. Fire Control looks good, it just won't benefit much from electronic hardening. That only allows it to resist damage from microwaves, while driving the cost up by, i think, 2 times as much. Same applies to your MFCs and passive sensors.
7. 1. You will need an active sensor lock to target enemy ships, either from this ship or from an accompanying scout.
8. Missiles look pretty good to me, no issue here.
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If you round the tonnage up to 3K, you should have a lot of room for armour at that tech level. I don't think you need over 100 billion km range so you could cut the fuel to 50K too. As GreatTuna said, you could also make even more room by ditching the shield and cryo berths. The armour would almost certainly serve you better than 5 shield points.
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why are you using a 1 shot railgun?
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Do speeds really Average 50km/s at this tech?
It didn't have an Active as I was planning on having sensor platforms placed on all
Single shot Rail is to save weight as its just a back up. Its power is Its ASM's and they travel in groups of atleast 2 or more and have overwhelming volleys and retreat to reload.
Here's a revised version based your feedback.
Arg - Copy class Patrol Vessel 2,476 tons 41 Crew 1,081.4 BP TCS 50 TH 1,200 EM 0
24237 km/s Armour 2-16 Shields 0-0 HTK 20 Sensors 7/7/0/0 DCR 2-8 PPV 12.38
Maint Life 6.53 Years MSP 546 AFR 25% IFR 0.3% 1YR 22 5YR 331 Max Repair 200 MSP
Magazine 76 / 0
Commander Control Rating 1 BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Morale Check Required
AGI ARG QSD (2) Power 1200 Fuel Use 1.61% Signature 600 Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 30,000 Litres Range 135.2 billion km (64 days at full power)
AGI 10cm Railgun V90/C0.75/S1 (1) Range 86,400km TS: 25,000 km/s Power 0.75-0.75 RM 90,000 km ROF 5
AGI 10cm BFC R86-TS25000 (SW) (1) Max Range: 86,400 km TS: 25,000 km/s ECCM-10 88 77 65 54 42 31 19 7 0 0
AGI Quantum Singularity Power Plant R7-PB100 (1) Total Power Output 6.6 Exp 50%
AGI BROADSWORD VLS (8) Missile Size: 7 Hangar Reload 132 minutes MF Reload 22 hours
AGI DART VLS (20) Missile Size: 1 Hangar Reload 50 minutes MF Reload 8 hours
AGI DART MFC FC35-R1 (1) Range 35.9m km Resolution 1 ECCM-10
AGI BROADSWORD MFC FC128-R100 (1) Range 128.3m km Resolution 100 ECCM-10
AGI DART AMM (20) Speed: 270,000 km/s End: 0.2m Range: 3.1m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 1440/864/432
AGI BROADSWORD TORPEDO (8) Speed: 270,000 km/s End: 4m Range: 65.4m km WH: 72 Size: 7 TH: 1440/864/432
AGI Active Search Sensor AS20-R1 (1) GPS 18 Range 20.7m km MCR 1.9m km Resolution 1
AGI EM Sensor EM0.1-7.5 (5%) (1) Sensitivity 7.5 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 21.7m km
AGI Thermal Sensor TH0.1-7.5 (5%) (1) Sensitivity 7.5 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 21.7m km
Electronic Warfare Jammers: Fire Control 10 Missile 10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Warship for auto-assignment purposes
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Do speeds really Average 50km/s at this tech?
It is the max tech level, so it does have outlandish capabilities. Quantum Singularity drives are twenty times more powerful than the first tier of TN engines (Nuclear Radioisotope), and twice as powerful as the engines I currently possess in my game (Plasma Core Anti-matter). In addition, fuel efficiency technology allows you to run engines with much higher boost without compromising range too much; though, naturally, such engines will cost an arm and a leg in Gallicite.
For example, here's my equivalent of a "patrol boat":
Feuershwinge VI class Corvette 5 600 tons 203 Crew 3 680 BP TCS 112 TH 3 750 EM 1 500
33482 km/s Armour 1-28 Shields 50-300 HTK 39 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 8-14 PPV 19
Maint Life 4.76 Years MSP 4 285 AFR 31% IFR 0.4% 1YR 310 5YR 4 653 Max Repair 1 875 MSP
Kapitan vtorogo ranga Control Rating 1 BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months Morale Check Required
Camilla LLC 150% 50HS Red Flame PCAM-D EP3750.00 (1) Power 3750 Fuel Use 24.65% Signature 3750 Explosion 15%
Fuel Capacity 375 000 Litres Range 48.9 billion km (16 days at full power)
Pacifica Ganymede Light Shield S50 (1) Recharge Time 300 seconds (0.2 per second)
Nakao Kinetics 600mm C12 Breach Drill Far X-Ray Laser (1) Range 600 000km TS: 33 482 km/s Power 94-12 RM 80 000 km ROF 40
Sabrina LLC Corvette BFC Mk. 2 R600-TS20000 (SW) (1) Max Range: 600 000 km TS: 20 000 km/s ECCM-5 98 97 95 93 92 90 88 87 85 83
Birnbaum-Reif Light GCAM Reactor R12-PB40 (1) Total Power Output 12 Exp 20%
BDHE Conglomerate 0.1HS Backup Radar Mk. 3 AS6-R1 (1) GPS 5 Range 6.1m km MCR 545k km Resolution 1
Electronic Warfare Jammers: Fire Control 5
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Warship for auto-assignment purposes
With QS engines of same size and same boost it would have 66800km/s of speed without breaking a sweat.
As for your design, it looks alright now. I've already pointed out the speed, and you could un-harden your passive sensors too, but everything else looks to be in order.
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This should match what your putting out replacing your armament with my Missiles and no shields.
So engine should be about 50% mass? This Engine is about 62%mass.
Is single engine better than multiple?
Is Electronic Hardening really that pointless?
I always thought that endurance should at least match deployment time. Guess I was wrong.
Arg - Copy class Patrol Vessel 4,662 tons 141 Crew 4,092.2 BP TCS 93 TH 6,250 EM 0
67033 km/s Armour 1-24 Shields 0-0 HTK 36 Sensors 7/7/0/0 DCR 12-25 PPV 12.38
Maint Life 7.13 Years MSP 6,583 AFR 14% IFR 0.2% 1YR 227 5YR 3,400 Max Repair 3,125 MSP
Magazine 76 / 0
Commander Control Rating 1 BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months Morale Check Required
Quantum Singularity Drive EP6250.00 (1) Power 6250.0 Fuel Use 7.81% Signature 6250.00 Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres Range 123.6 billion km (21 days at full power)
AGI 10cm Railgun V90/C0.75/S1 (1) Range 86,400km TS: 67,033 km/s Power 0.75-0.75 RM 90,000 km ROF 5
AGI 10cm BFC R86-TS25000 (SW) (1) Max Range: 86,400 km TS: 25,000 km/s ECCM-10 88 77 65 54 42 31 19 7 0 0
AGI Quantum Singularity Power Plant R7-PB100 (1) Total Power Output 6.6 Exp 50%
AGI BROADSWORD VLS (8) Missile Size: 7 Hangar Reload 132 minutes MF Reload 22 hours
AGI DART VLS (20) Missile Size: 1 Hangar Reload 50 minutes MF Reload 8 hours
AGI DART MFC FC35-R1 (1) Range 35.9m km Resolution 1 ECCM-10
AGI BROADSWORD MFC FC128-R100 (1) Range 128.3m km Resolution 100 ECCM-10
AGI DART AMM (20) Speed: 270,000 km/s End: 0.2m Range: 3.1m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 1440/864/432
AGI BROADSWORD TORPEDO (8) Speed: 270,000 km/s End: 4m Range: 65.4m km WH: 72 Size: 7 TH: 1440/864/432
AGI Active Search Sensor AS136-R100 (1) GPS 3600 Range 136.1m km Resolution 100
AGI Active Search Sensor AS20-R1 (1) GPS 18 Range 20.7m km MCR 1.9m km Resolution 1
AGI Thermal Sensor TH0.1-7.5 (1) Sensitivity 7.5 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 21.7m km
AGI EM Sensor EM0.1-7.5 (1) Sensitivity 7.5 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 21.7m km
Electronic Warfare Jammers: Fire Control 10 Missile 10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Warship for auto-assignment purposes
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Engines should be roughly 30-40% of design for normal conditions, beam ships need more to be certain that they can close the range. Missile ships can be slower as long as their missiles are fast and have a good, long range.
Electronic hardening is only useful against microwave attacks. There are enemies that use microwaves so it isn't useless but unless you know you're fighting such enemies in close range (less than 200k km), it's a wasted investment.
It's a common belief amongst new players that fuel, deployment and maintenance time should all match but this is almost never the case. Maintenance life should always be higher than the others but really you want your IFR to be as small as feasible and your max repair as high as possible - don't stare at the maintenance time too much.
Finally, it's counter productive to try to learn ship design while using end game tech. You will almost never hit those levels in a normal game and it is very easy to pick up bad habits because the tech is so capable that you can get away with them. I really recommend that you learn through playing a conventional start instead. Numbers are lot smaller, options are much more limited and you will learn what to prioritize for research.
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IIRC, cryo berths will help you if your ship takes damage to it's life support. Life support failures can occur if you exceed deployment time, but considering it's a "patrol boat" that probably won't be likely to happen. Otherwise, what others have said.
Also, although outdated by now, here is a design I have made for something VERY similar to a "patrol boat"
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=11551.msg135214#msg135214 (http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=11551.msg135214#msg135214)
Perhaps this thread can give you some guidance, and of course if you have questions don't hesitate to ask.
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A long time ago, I determined that a lot of the general mission requirements of a "patrol boat" would best be served by a small jump capable carrier, or a small carrier and jump tender.
This would give it the strategic endurance it would need to be on station for a long period of time, with having fast scouts on board that would be able to investigate contacts.
At higher tech levels, the patrol boat would be a cloaked carrier. Carrier tonnage never really goes completely obsolete. It may be less efficient, but when it comes to increasing your ability to deliver a maximum sized strike force, the ability to keep updating their parasite component gives them a long career.
A patrol carrier can deliver sensor buoys to jump points that have enough sensor capacity to detect anything within known jump distance technology of the jump point. Even with a resolution 1 active sensor, you can generally do the job with a 1 HS or smaller sensor, and therefore it can be a commercial vehicle, with effectively infinite endurance. Of course, detecting an enemy transit isn't enough unless it has someone in system to report to, who will notice its destruction.
So a primary purpose of the patrol ship is to survive to report, and the endurance to do so until they can make contact. Another purpose of the patrol ship is to chivy enemy scouts and survey ships from the system. Even a single beam armed parasite can eventually whittle down an unarmed enemy scout or survey ship, if it has enough time and can intercept. The demands of high performance interceptor and long endurance patrol emphasize that the patrol mission can not easily be done by a single ship, but a carrier/parasite can handle it.
From a gameplay perspective, you want long endurance on your patrol ships because would be very tedious managing sending them back to base frequently otherwise.