Aurora 4x
C# Aurora => C# Suggestions => Topic started by: Steve Walmsley on October 07, 2024, 10:50:13 AM
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I'm debating what to do about POWs.
Currently, you rescue life pods, get intel points and then have the survivors on the rescuing ship using up life support and often quickly running down the deployment clock. The solution is to offload them, and it can be the nearest rock if you don't mind the RP aspect. The last is therefore tedious micromanagement. So I am considering two broad options.
Option 1) You rescue the POWs, get the intel and they vanish - keeping the benefit and removing the tedium that doesn't require any major decisions.
Option 2) POWs become more important from a logistics and intel point of view. In this scenario, you have to build POW Camps, which double as interrogation facilities. There are no longer interrogation experts on every shuttle. The rescuing ship will transport the POWs, including captured officers, to one of the POW camps, or to a colony for subsequent transport (I'll need a transport POW order), where they will be questioned and intel gathered. A colony with one or more camps will have effectively unlimited capacity for prisoners, but a limited capacity to process those POWs for intel-gathering purposes. The prisoners effectively become a potential intel resource until processed. The game would start with the home world having a POW camp.
Comments and suggestions welcome.
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Option 2.
If this will also be the case for the AI.
Because then you get new choices.
You get the potential choice of trying to rescue your people or make them "unavailable" for the enemy.
If you can catch the ship that picked up the pods.
Would you be able to rescue them from enemies POW camps?
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I strongly support the second option, I believe all these aspects related to diplomacy, Intel, treaties could be expanded and improved, so I definitely support the POW camps but I do not have at the moment any specific idea.
Maybe:
1) the possibility to return POW to the NPR in exchange of relation improving (do not know of it is feasible)
2) Intel gathering should be incremental, more POWs more chance to get new info (and also if there's a differentiation between simple crew and officials)
3) Chance the POW escape and steal a ship if in orbit? ;D It would be fun, of course the chance is minimal and reduced depending other factors.
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I suggest keeping it as abstracted as possible, modelling PoWs in detail is the first step down a dark path leading away from the core design of the game IMO. There are alot of other aspects of intel gathering I would rather see improved instead.
But if you do choose to model interrogations, then wouldn't Naval HQs be a logical place for this? The game already have enough installations to keep track of as it is.
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Option 2 sounds great! But if dedicated POW installations adding bloat is a concern, I'm sure they can be abstracted the same way crew is, with all 1m+ pop colonies being able to extract intel from them, or indeed have that functionality added to another installation. A few additional possibilities that come to mind are POWs adding to the Required Occupation Strength of their colony (with a higher Political Status Occupation Modifier than normal to represent their status as enemy combatants, and offset their small numbers) and an empire-wide setting governing interrogation harshness, with more cruel methods providing intel faster, but totalling less intel per prisoner.
In either case, unless Option 1 is chosen, an order to transfer survivors between fleets is sorely needed, as any ship that picks up too many survivors has to either return home or dump them on a random rock which is quite immersion-breaking when you have spare cryo berths in your other ships.
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Option 2
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I would suggest a 2 part solution. You get some "Shallow" level of intel from just capturing POW, for example location/existence/number of certain enemy units/colonies (Perhaps within the system?) something that might be extracted from regular Joe, as Officers and engineers interrogations might take more time to get anything usefull.
Then, if you transport them to a Planet with sufficient population (1-10m, enough to simulate needed capabilities of the colony to avoid creating another specified building) you can extract "Deep" level of intel. (Here we can expand on what we can extract from POW) Information about distant colonies, dockyards, state of the enemy empire etc.
In my opinion it is important to keep as close to abstract as possible in case of not-core mechanics.
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Option 2 sounds good, but the suggested change makes me believe that this would create unnecessary bloat with the addition of a new installation, specialized transportation and rate of interrogation. While deeper mechanics are good, this is a very niche case indeed, far removed from the core of Aurora.
As suggested before, abstracting the interrogation part to simply "large enough" colonies or existing Naval HQ installations is a simpler solution.
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You guys are not really micromanagement oriented ;D It is Aurora, everything need to be micromanaged, c'mon!
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You guys are not really micromanagement oriented ;D It is Aurora, everything need to be micromanaged, c'mon!
We have plenty of opportunities to micro, you got to give us this one :P
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Two POW related suggestions:
1. Could we have a way for ground forces to surrender? Seems crazy I have to wipe out every last logi truck and conscript. Ideally ground troop and naval POW's would give different intel; like a capture sailor wouldn't know anything about how their race's tanks work, and some captured rifleman won't have any idea how a spaceship works. Also ideally there'd be some kind of system for judging reasonableness of surrender; it's pointless to surrender to the bugs from Starship Troopers, but surrendering to The Empire from Star Wars seems like it could be rational sometimes.
2. Allow POW's of the same species to escape the POW camp. Aliens will stand out too much; no way for them to hide really, but a human POW escaping on a human world could blend in.
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Option 2, with some modifications, I think.
You have prisoners, a ship can pick them up with a "Load POWs" order, selecting which ones as necessary. The ship can then go to a body, and "create prison colony", and a small colony of that species is created, with the POWs. This colony will have significant unrest, and require a garrison to maintain order - if you don't maintain order, they'll rebel and become a hostile world.
Prison colonies can build the forced labour camps and mines, and not much else.
Ships carrying the same species of POW can offload them onto the prison colony.
Some method to distinguish between newly arrived and previously questioned POWs.
Also need a method to repatriate prisoners and friendly survivors to worlds of their own species. I've attached a pic of the prisoners in my War of the Worlds game - only the Martians were actually hostiles, the others are survivors that I've picked up, but have no means to repatriate.
Since I occupied Mars, I should be able to repatriate the Martian prisoners there (and this should cause some unrest).
NPRs (including raiders) should also have prison colonies for any POWs that they capture. And the player should be able to raid NPR prisons and liberate the prisoners, including any commanders.
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I am firmly in favour of option 1 . This is far too much effort for a minor issue which rarely gives any useful information, with the added hassle I'll just stop rescuing enemy survivors
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While option 2 sounds fascinating, it presents a "fake" logistical problem. Ultimately, we’re just picking up survivors, as we did before, and dropping them off at a colony.
As previously mentioned, unless the POW mechanics are completely overhauled to make them entities, I don’t see any advantage in not implementing option 1.
If POWs were to become entities, their status should be known—or potentially known—by the owner race, which would affect relationships over time. Both AI and players should have the opportunity to rescue the POWs, and there should be a low percentage chance of escape due to some form of unrest or damage.
Would I pursue that path? Probably not. There are many other areas of Aurora that could use some extra attention right now, and I think it would be better to address those first.
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I was just thinking, if we go with option 2, POW intel should "degrade" over time. If you capture a sailor and can't get around to interrogating him; what good are his reports about fleet positions 6 months ago?
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Option 2. POW camps are very specialised facilities that have no other purpose. Remember, they need to be able to accommodate different gravities, atmospheres and so on. It's not just a pre-fab huts surrounded by barbed wire.
Transporting POWs also gives hospital ships a second job which is good. And I'm all for adding new diplomacy options regarding them - aliens demanding repatriation, improving relations with them if you hand them over quickly or without being asked, POW camps generating unrest because civilians are uneasy living next door to them, and yeah, chance for escape if the POWs are the same species. Ground units definitely need a chance to surrender too!
But perhaps this all could be a check box in game options like maintenance, jump gates and realistic promotions.
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I don't think option 2 will actually be worth the effort, either for you or for us. Option 1 is just fine by me.
But if you've got a good idea in the back of your mind and you feel like going for it, then do. It might be nifty in practice, and I'm not opposed to it or anything.
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Option 2, preferably accompanied with an option to transfer prisoners from one ship to another so warships conducting search and, um, rescue operations can offload to the slow prison ship for transport.
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Option 2, plus convert processed POWs to a population? (Prison colony)
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Option 2
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Option 1 for all the reasons others have already stated.
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If you just kept the current intel and diplomacy systems and added POW management on top, I think it would be more trouble than it's worth: the intel often just doesn't seem very valuable. But if you took this as an opportunity to expand the diplomacy system as others have suggested I think it could be great.
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If you just kept the current intel and diplomacy systems and added POW management on top, I think it would be more trouble than it's worth: the intel often just doesn't seem very valuable. But if you took this as an opportunity to expand the diplomacy system as others have suggested I think it could be great.
I have had a lot of useful intel from prisoners, which is why i thought it maybe should be harder to get.
BTW, regardless of what I do with POWs, I will follow option 1) for rescued crew and officers of the same race. They will become available immediately.
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If you just kept the current intel and diplomacy systems and added POW management on top, I think it would be more trouble than it's worth: the intel often just doesn't seem very valuable. But if you took this as an opportunity to expand the diplomacy system as others have suggested I think it could be great.
I have had a lot of useful intel from prisoners, which is why i thought it maybe should be harder to get.
BTW, regardless of what I do with POWs, I will follow option 1) for rescued crew and officers of the same race. They will become available immediately.
Can We at least keep the possibility to unload them at a colony and keep track of them in a small box of how many they are and which species they come from? Just for RP purposes.
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If you just kept the current intel and diplomacy systems and added POW management on top, I think it would be more trouble than it's worth: the intel often just doesn't seem very valuable. But if you took this as an opportunity to expand the diplomacy system as others have suggested I think it could be great.
I have had a lot of useful intel from prisoners, which is why i thought it maybe should be harder to get.
BTW, regardless of what I do with POWs, I will follow option 1) for rescued crew and officers of the same race. They will become available immediately.
I get a good amount of useful intel, but getting active sensor designs is a huge disappointment so I can understand why some people would have an impression that intel is not useful. Honestly, sensor lowrolls could probably be removed and no one would shed a tear...
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If you just kept the current intel and diplomacy systems and added POW management on top, I think it would be more trouble than it's worth: the intel often just doesn't seem very valuable. But if you took this as an opportunity to expand the diplomacy system as others have suggested I think it could be great.
I have had a lot of useful intel from prisoners, which is why i thought it maybe should be harder to get.
BTW, regardless of what I do with POWs, I will follow option 1) for rescued crew and officers of the same race. They will become available immediately.
I get a good amount of useful intel, but getting active sensor designs is a huge disappointment so I can understand why some people would have an impression that intel is not useful. Honestly, sensor lowrolls could probably be removed and no one would shed a tear...
I'll give some thought to what could replace them. I prefer not to boost the chance of some of the other ones by just eliminatiing it, so I will look at options and maybe a rebalance.
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If you just kept the current intel and diplomacy systems and added POW management on top, I think it would be more trouble than it's worth: the intel often just doesn't seem very valuable. But if you took this as an opportunity to expand the diplomacy system as others have suggested I think it could be great.
I have had a lot of useful intel from prisoners, which is why i thought it maybe should be harder to get.
BTW, regardless of what I do with POWs, I will follow option 1) for rescued crew and officers of the same race. They will become available immediately.
I get a good amount of useful intel, but getting active sensor designs is a huge disappointment so I can understand why some people would have an impression that intel is not useful. Honestly, sensor lowrolls could probably be removed and no one would shed a tear...
Maybe I'm mistaken, but wouldn't stealing an active sensor design be a huge intel win? You get to know the exact capabilities of your enemy's sensors, and can thus have an easier time avoiding detection and/or target lock.
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How are PoWs handled when it comes to boarding? Surrendering crew and officers should be a great opportunity for interrogations here with big bonus to learning even more about the captured ship class (like where is it deployed, built, how many exist and so on).
I always assumed that an abstraction of interrogating and pressing the captured crews into limited service (under guard) was one reason why you could get captured ships up and running somewhat quickly (which seems to be changing now in 2.6.0)
https://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=13463.msg171632#msg171632
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How are PoWs handled when it comes to boarding? Surrendering crew and officers should be a great opportunity for interrogations here with big bonus to learning even more about the captured ship class (like where is it deployed, built, how many exist and so on).
I always assumed that an abstraction of interrogating and pressing the captured crews into limited service (under guard) was one reason why you could get captured ships up and running somewhat quickly (which seems to be changing now in 2.6.0)
https://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=13463.msg171632#msg171632
Boarding tends to kill the crew - although its possible that could change. However, for ships that surrender, their crew will now become prisoners on their old ship. I've just posted the updated rules.
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=13463.msg171766#msg171766
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Boarding tends to kill the crew - although its possible that could change. However, for ships that surrender, their crew will now become prisoners on their old ship. I've just posted the updated rules.
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=13463.msg171766#msg171766
Cool 8)
Maybe the total Xenophobia (for both different races) could be used to determine an overall ratio of surrendering crew (and possible ground forces down the line) with some randomness built in?
Logic being that both the actions of the race doing the capturing and the race being captureds expectations on how they will be treated as prisoner are important to determine if it makes sense for them to surrender.
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Nice! Changes look pretty good. Deeper but not needlessly complicated. Colony of 1m pop + NavalHQ = Interrogation.
Can NPRs use these new mechanics? Perhaps an abstracted version?
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Nice! Changes look pretty good. Deeper but not needlessly complicated. Colony of 1m pop + NavalHQ = Interrogation.
Can NPRs use these new mechanics? Perhaps an abstracted version?
NPRs are not affected by deployment times, so they will rescue the crews and commanders, then drop them off when they refuel at a pop of 1m or more (which needs refuelling capability so usually a substantial colony). However, those 1m+ NPR pops will assume 1 NHQ for this purpose if none exists. It's a minor abstraction that avoids extra AI checks every increment to decide if diverting to drop off POWs at a suitable pop is high enough priority.
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Great changes imo.
One question popped up.
What happens if I board and capture an enemy ship that has prisoners of another known or unknown race?
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Great changes imo.
One question popped up.
What happens if I board and capture an enemy ship that has prisoners of another known or unknown race?
They become your prisoners.
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If you just kept the current intel and diplomacy systems and added POW management on top, I think it would be more trouble than it's worth: the intel often just doesn't seem very valuable. But if you took this as an opportunity to expand the diplomacy system as others have suggested I think it could be great.
I have had a lot of useful intel from prisoners, which is why i thought it maybe should be harder to get.
BTW, regardless of what I do with POWs, I will follow option 1) for rescued crew and officers of the same race. They will become available immediately.
I get a good amount of useful intel, but getting active sensor designs is a huge disappointment so I can understand why some people would have an impression that intel is not useful. Honestly, sensor lowrolls could probably be removed and no one would shed a tear...
Maybe I'm mistaken, but wouldn't stealing an active sensor design be a huge intel win? You get to know the exact capabilities of your enemy's sensors, and can thus have an easier time avoiding detection and/or target lock.
The problem is that it is super easy to figure out NPR sensor characteristics from their emissions if you know the basic mechanics. Player race sensors perhaps less so, but still a pretty sad result when the alternatives are things like class blueprints.
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I mulled this over for a couple of days and I really like the current aspect that right now it is a choice to drop off prisoners at closer colonies easily and have a higher risk of those going back to the race you captured the prisoners from if that colony is taken over. I think it would be awesome to play into that aspect more instead of or in addition to the interrogation aspect.
Can we make prisoners visible with sensors so mounting raids on colonies is more of a consideration? (I am presuming they are not visible currently as I cannot remember seeing any, but also cannot remember rescuing any from a colony)
I'm not sure if a rework on naval academies and crew is needed or not to help POWs become more important as there have been games where I run low and others where I run at highest base crew training and never run out. I do know that with it being easier to train up crew than previously and the cap being lowered it is definitely less of a bad thing when you have to lower crew grade or use conscripts for your ships.
Edit: Didn't realize a rules update had already been posted, but most of this still stands so I'll leave it here for consideration.
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Something that would be very niche but could lead to some interesting stories is if you could send in a small ground force commando team to liberate prisoners on a colony. I imagine the commandos would have to fight a few rounds of combat against a defending unit. The location of prisoners could be something you can learn via intel.
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What happens when communications are impossible?
Even after you have capture a few hundred millions of aliens in colonies/planets?
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What happens when communications are impossible?
Even after you have capture a few hundred millions of aliens in colonies/planets?
You can't interrogate them unless you understand their language.
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I'm debating what to do about POWs.
Currently, you rescue life pods, get intel points and then have the survivors on the rescuing ship using up life support and often quickly running down the deployment clock. The solution is to offload them, and it can be the nearest rock if you don't mind the RP aspect. The last is therefore tedious micromanagement. So I am considering two broad options.
Option 1) You rescue the POWs, get the intel and they vanish - keeping the benefit and removing the tedium that doesn't require any major decisions.
Option 2) POWs become more important from a logistics and intel point of view. In this scenario, you have to build POW Camps, which double as interrogation facilities. There are no longer interrogation experts on every shuttle. The rescuing ship will transport the POWs, including captured officers, to one of the POW camps, or to a colony for subsequent transport (I'll need a transport POW order), where they will be questioned and intel gathered. A colony with one or more camps will have effectively unlimited capacity for prisoners, but a limited capacity to process those POWs for intel-gathering purposes. The prisoners effectively become a potential intel resource until processed. The game would start with the home world having a POW camp.
Comments and suggestions welcome.
I would always prefer option 2 - im always for more features and things to consider.
Maybe some mechanic of getting relationship bonus if you return POW's to their empire? Or bonuses/penalties to unrest if you kill/dont kill prisoners depending on your species xenophobia and militarism?