Post by: Thorgarth on January 19, 2009, 07:49:41 AM
Thank you,
Thorgarth
Post by: Kurt on January 19, 2009, 09:09:05 AM
Everything is a trade-off, and you need to decide what kind of missile that you are designing. Is this something that you are going to launch in high numbers to overwhelm your enemy, even if no one missile has a high to-hit percentage, or are you going for high-value missiles each of which is going to do major damage when it hits? If you are going for the swarm approach, then small, cheap missiles are the way to go, but if you want high-value then larger, slower-firing but more accurate missiles are the way to go.
Kurt
Post by: Hawkeye on January 19, 2009, 10:00:32 AM
With a given (low) technology, I can usually design a size 2 missile with a class 2 warhead and reasonable speed (10.000 to 13.000 km/s) and range (some 20 to 40 mio km) or a size 3 missile with a class 3 warhead (same speed and range).
In those cases, I will allways go with the smaller missile, as each missile shot down by enemy PD only lowers the throw weight of a given missile salvo by 2 pts, while with the bigger missile it is reduced by 3 pts. It also forces an enemy to haul around a whole lot of anti-missile missiles to be effective.
I usually don´t bother armoring them, as armor doesn´t help against anti-missile missiles, which I perceive as the biggest countermeasure to my missile salvos (PD guns can allways be overcome by large salvos).
Other than that, I try to keep the missiles small (say, max. size 4 for ships, max. size 8 for PDCs) so I can fire a reasonable salvo, that has a chance to penetrate enemy PD.
Post by: Randy on January 21, 2009, 09:31:36 AM
If you have longer range/endurance you can then send multiple vollys into a staging area, combine into a single larger volley, and then send it after your target - even at max fire control range...
Post by: IanD on September 24, 2009, 02:11:38 PM
Regards
Post by: Brian Neumann on September 24, 2009, 06:35:06 PM
This was with me playing the defensive side as well as the offensive side throughout the battle.
Brian
Post by: sloanjh on September 24, 2009, 07:30:10 PM
Quote from: "IanD"
I have a question on multi-stage missiles. When you design a missile with a second stage do you have to manufacture both parts and put them together or do just manufacture the assembled unit by manufacturing the first stage?
Regards
B - All the parts come together as a pre-assembled unit.
John
Post by: IanD on September 25, 2009, 03:12:44 AM
Quote from: "Brian"
For ships, the smaller more numerous launchers do seem to work better. For planetary defense centers it goes the other way. I have had several battles where pdc's with size 12 missiles were almost unstoppable. By the time you put 1 space for ecm, 1 for armor (which does help now against missiles) and .5 for a guidence package (usually em) the missile does not pack any more of a punch than a size six does. The difference is how hard it is to stop. A level or two of ecm drastically reduces the ability of the final pd in hitting, the armor makes it take twice as many intercepts for the pd missiles, and the ecm also reduces the range for the pd missiles fire control, this often reduces their counter fire by one salvo it seems. The terminal guidance means that the missile will tend to hit a target even if the guiding fire control is nocked out. I was actually quite suprised at their survivability. A salvo of 24 missiles survived the point defense missiles and energy weapons and got an average of 5 hits. Compared to the fleet engagement where the same generation of missiles had over 300 missiles per salvo of size 3 and only got an average of 9 hits. I replayed the battle (handy having saved the database only a couple of days before.) with a totally different missile design doctrine for the ships using size six missiles. They got about the same percentage of hits with unarmored missiles, but when I switched to using armored missiles that did half the damage per hit they actually got almost twice the total damage through.
I was trying to find something to outrange Precursor missiles, the thought being can I have a fast unarmoured delivery vehicle with a long range coupled to a size 3 sprint missile with a larger warhead, terminal guidance, and twice the normal velocity and 10mk range. Well I can but its size 12
.Quote from: "sloanjh"
B - All the parts come together as a pre-assembled unit.
Many thanks sloanjh
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 26, 2009, 09:24:25 AM
Quote from: "IanD"
I have a question on multi-stage missiles. When you design a missile with a second stage do you have to manufacture both parts and put them together or do just manufacture the assembled unit by manufacturing the first stage?If you design a small 'warhead' missile and then design a larger missile that has three 'Warheads' as it's second state, the cost and materials for the larger missile will include the costs for the three smaller missiles. When you build the larger missile, it will come complete with the second stages.
Steve
Post by: WHCnelson on December 10, 2009, 04:11:39 PM
Post by: waresky on December 11, 2009, 03:21:13 AM
2)Can launch (deploy) buoy use the right command: "Missile Launch at" on a "order" list (Task Group windows orders)
3)where deploy and how: reach waypoint (Mines deploy system,for example)and order same as above
4)or on a planet for "geosurvey buoy" system (if u like build this design's Buoy)
5)Activation:when Buoy r deployed if r "PASSIVE" (eg:Geosurvey sensors onboard) the buoy scan automatically when deployed
..
Post by: Steve Walmsley on December 11, 2009, 03:46:01 AM
Quote from: "WHCnelson"
OK Guys... How do you deploy Buoys? Are they launched from a missile tube and then they stay in one location? and how do you activate them?Assign a buoy to a missile tube and then either fire them manually using the Msl Launch button on the Ship Window or use the "Launch Missiles At" order for the Fleet. Once launched they stay in one location, although they will move with a planet or moon if they launched in orbit. "Launch Missiles At" can be used with waypoints.
EDIT: Another option is to make the buoy the second stage for a missile. That way the buoy will deploy when the missile reaches its target.
Steve
Post by: Canaris on January 19, 2010, 01:34:50 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
EDIT: Another option is to make the buoy the second stage for a missile. That way the buoy will deploy when the missile reaches its target.
I hope this isn't considered gravedigging, but how does one go about that?
EDIT: If it's not possible, can I use regular missiles as long-range geological survey probes? They can fit geo sensors, afterall.
Post by: Beersatron on January 19, 2010, 02:02:53 PM
It looks like the Drone stuff will be in full effect for the next release, but that the next release will be 4.9, therefore a DB release and therefore game restarts ahoy-hoy!
Post by: Canaris on January 19, 2010, 02:04:59 PM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
Steve mentioned in the bug thread that the drone stuff is incomplete. He had a database corruption on his development machine and lost a pile of work and during his re-working of the same material he missed some of the updates.
It looks like the Drone stuff will be in full effect for the next release, but that the next release will be 4.9, therefore a DB release and therefore game restarts ahoy-hoy!
Ah, so the geo sensors checkbox does nothing for standard missiles but add useless weight?
Post by: Hawkeye on January 19, 2010, 02:30:54 PM
[attachment=1:1qhgu1ii]Buoy.JPG[/attachment:1qhgu1ii]
First you design your buoy. As you can see, I have thrown together a size 2 buoy with a lifespan of 3 months and a res-100 active sensor, which will activate as soon as the buoy separates from the carrier-missile
Once the buoy is researched, you can start designing the missile, that is to carry it.
[attachment=0:1qhgu1ii]first_stage.JPG[/attachment:1qhgu1ii]
The build missile is then launched at a waypoint and the buoy will separate once that waypoint is reached. if you don´t change the default separation range (150.000km) it will seperate at that distance from the waypoint.
At least that is how I understand it
Post by: Canaris on January 19, 2010, 03:38:26 PM
I knew there was something right under my nose I was missing.
EDIT: Okay, so I just figured out that you can't launch a missile directly at a planet from a PDC. So I'll have to build a ship-based missile platform to use my geo survey satellites (buoys).
Post by: Beersatron on January 19, 2010, 04:01:38 PM
Quote from: "Canaris"
Quote from: "Beersatron"Steve mentioned in the bug thread that the drone stuff is incomplete. He had a database corruption on his development machine and lost a pile of work and during his re-working of the same material he missed some of the updates.
It looks like the Drone stuff will be in full effect for the next release, but that the next release will be 4.9, therefore a DB release and therefore game restarts ahoy-hoy!
Ah, so the geo sensors checkbox does nothing for standard missiles but add useless weight?
Thinking about it some more, I am confusing myself between a buoy and a drone.
You 'should' be able to fit a buoy as the second stage of a munition, the first stage being a missile (sans warhead) and fire it at the planet. But, the range on a first stage missile is going to be short - hence why Steve has added the drone type to munitions.
I have never done this myself, so don't know the correct steps to making one.
Post by: sloanjh on January 19, 2010, 04:32:14 PM
Quote from: "Canaris"
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"EDIT: Another option is to make the buoy the second stage for a missile. That way the buoy will deploy when the missile reaches its target.
I hope this isn't considered gravedigging, but how does one go about that?
EDIT: If it's not possible, can I use regular missiles as long-range geological survey probes? They can fit geo sensors, afterall.
In the missile design screen, you can specify a payload (or maybe it's called 2nd stage) of 0-N already-designed missiles. So design the buoy (presumably with zero engines). Then research the buoy. The design the carrier, specifying the buoy design as the 2nd stage.
EDIT: DOH!!! I hate it when I miss the next screenfull of replies!!!!
John
Post by: Vanigo on January 25, 2010, 08:47:30 PM
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1 MSP (0.05 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 24000 km/s Endurance: 62 minutes Range: 90.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.5
Second Stage: Angry Flea Smart Chaff x100
Second Stage Separation Range: 150,000 km
Overall Endurance: 2 hours Overall Range: 202.5m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 240% 3k km/s 80% 5k km/s 48% 10k km/s 24%
Materials Required: Fuel x1000
Missile Size: 0.002 MSP (0.0001 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 30000 km/s Endurance: 62 minutes Range: 112.5m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.001
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 300% 3k km/s 100% 5k km/s 60% 10k km/s 30%
Materials Required: Fuel x2.5The idea is to swamp the enemy's missile defense with hundreds of tiny, harmless missiles. It is, of course, worthless if point defense systems prioritize larger missiles or something. Anyone have any insights?
Post by: Erik L on January 25, 2010, 11:48:56 PM
Quote from: "Vanigo"
So, I had a crazy idea... Somebody tell me if this is stupid or not:Code: [Select]Missile Size: 1 MSP (0.05 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10The idea is to swamp the enemy's missile defense with hundreds of tiny, harmless missiles. It is, of course, worthless if point defense systems prioritize larger missiles or something. Anyone have any insights?
Speed: 24000 km/s Endurance: 62 minutes Range: 90.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.5
Second Stage: Angry Flea Smart Chaff x100
Second Stage Separation Range: 150,000 km
Overall Endurance: 2 hours Overall Range: 202.5m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 240% 3k km/s 80% 5k km/s 48% 10k km/s 24%
Materials Required: Fuel x1000
Missile Size: 0.002 MSP (0.0001 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 30000 km/s Endurance: 62 minutes Range: 112.5m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.001
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 300% 3k km/s 100% 5k km/s 60% 10k km/s 30%
Materials Required: Fuel x2.5
From a standpoint of defending against these, I'd stop trying to intercept anything smaller than a size 2 missile after the first bunch hit and did nothing to me. I'm not sure how the AI would react, as it's very hard to put an offensive punch into a 1 MSP missile without high levels of tech.
Post by: Steve Walmsley on January 26, 2010, 04:18:56 AM
Quote from: "Vanigo"
So, I had a crazy idea... Somebody tell me if this is stupid or not:A very good idea. Inspired in fact :). At first I considering getting automated point defence to ignore tiny missiles but at higher tech levels, you could get a warhead even on fairly small missiles so that wouldn't work. Then I considered tiny anti-missiles but that path leads to eventual insanity :)Code: [Select]Missile Size: 1 MSP (0.05 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10The idea is to swamp the enemy's missile defense with hundreds of tiny, harmless missiles. It is, of course, worthless if point defense systems prioritize larger missiles or something. Anyone have any insights?
Speed: 24000 km/s Endurance: 62 minutes Range: 90.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.5
Second Stage: Angry Flea Smart Chaff x100
Second Stage Separation Range: 150,000 km
Overall Endurance: 2 hours Overall Range: 202.5m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 240% 3k km/s 80% 5k km/s 48% 10k km/s 24%
Materials Required: Fuel x1000
Missile Size: 0.002 MSP (0.0001 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 30000 km/s Endurance: 62 minutes Range: 112.5m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.001
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 300% 3k km/s 100% 5k km/s 60% 10k km/s 30%
Materials Required: Fuel x2.5
Steve
Post by: Vanigo on January 26, 2010, 10:25:52 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
A very good idea. Inspired in fact :). At first I considering getting automated point defence to ignore tiny missiles but at higher tech levels, you could get a warhead even on fairly small missiles so that wouldn't work. Then I considered tiny anti-missiles but that path leads to eventual insanity :)I wouldn't call it the only solution. If you set it up so that point defense preferentially targeted larger missiles when there are too many to target them all, it'd solve the problem. (And really, it's just a good idea anyway; how else would an engineer have the system prioritize targets? Randomly? That's nuts!)
Steve
Also, if you do decide to do it that way, I wouldn't give it a hard cap of 1. As you said, you could get a dangerous missile awfully small at high tech levels. Maybe put in research projects to reduce minimum missile size?
Post by: Beersatron on January 26, 2010, 10:29:45 PM
Quote from: "Vanigo"
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"A very good idea. Inspired in fact :). At first I considering getting automated point defence to ignore tiny missiles but at higher tech levels, you could get a warhead even on fairly small missiles so that wouldn't work. Then I considered tiny anti-missiles but that path leads to eventual insanity :)I wouldn't call it the only solution. If you set it up so that point defense preferentially targeted larger missiles when there are too many to target them all, it'd solve the problem. (And really, it's just a good idea anyway; how else would an engineer have the system prioritize targets? Randomly? That's nuts!)
Steve
Also, if you do decide to do it that way, I wouldn't give it a hard cap of 1. As you said, you could get a dangerous missile awfully small at high tech levels. Maybe put in research projects to reduce minimum missile size?
If you set the PD up to target the largest missile then I am going to go and design a large missile with no warhead but extra armor and missile-ecm! :)
Post by: Erik L on January 26, 2010, 10:41:41 PM
As for the gobs of teeny missiles vs large ones. Maybe the AI should track the intel on missiles too. You see how fast they are, warhead size, etc. If I see a missile a second time that I deem lower priority, I'll leave it for the secondary layer of defense.
Post by: Charlie Beeler on January 27, 2010, 07:49:59 AM
A new tech based on a tech level of active sensors (tbd) that is dedicated to PD only that then can set priorities to intercepts would be appropriate. Empire, task force, task group, and ship level protocols could be entered into the mix with advance techs. This of course is predicated on Steve thinking it's a good idea since the coding will be a royal pain.
Post by: The Shadow on March 16, 2010, 01:33:39 AM
I got very tired of my exploration ships being shot down when they encounter NPR's, so I designed a two-stage delivery system for geosurvey buoys to check out promising planets in the inner system. It's the first missile system I've built, so be gentle.
The trouble is, I cannot get the darn things to launch! Someone mentioned above that drones were messed up, but it's been a few versions since then, so I assume they're fixed.
I've been assuming that you don't need missile fire control to hit a planet, but just in case I've tried it both ways. In every case, when I "launch missiles at" the planet (or a waypoint on top of the planet), the ship flies directly to the planet, then apparently does nothing. I lose a drone from the ship's inventory, but no geosurvey data ever comes back.
(What sort of sensor do you put on a guided missile, by the way? If you want it to hit a possibly uninhabited planet, that is! Active sensor?)
EDIT: Curiouser and curiouser. In my latest attempt, the ship flew directly to the planet, then launched the drone - at the sun. I have tried this with several different planets - the drone always launches at the sun. Very weird. (The version had an active sensor on it, maybe that's it?)
Post by: Vanigo on March 16, 2010, 06:48:08 AM
Post by: UnLimiTeD on March 16, 2010, 09:24:51 AM
I mean, I originally aimed at a rather huge missile with armor that would be manually detonated once the enemy launches his first AMM salvo, containing several small, fast Missiles and a sensor Missile to guide them.
Now I know that is sadly not possible, as there's no fire control buoy, but it would still be nice to pack two types of missiles into one carrier.
Without expending a fighter.
Also, whats the kind of sensors for?
I know missiles will use these if they lose their target, but is one kind preferable over the others?
Post by: Hawkeye on March 16, 2010, 11:12:13 AM
Quote from: "UnLimiTeD"
While we got a nice discussion about missile design here, is it somehow possible to design a MIRV style Cluster-Missile with more than one second stage?
I mean, I originally aimed at a rather huge missile with armor that would be manually detonated once the enemy launches his first AMM salvo, containing several small, fast Missiles and a sensor Missile to guide them.
Now I know that is sadly not possible, as there's no fire control buoy, but it would still be nice to pack two types of missiles into one carrier.
Without expending a fighter.
Also, whats the kind of sensors for?
I know missiles will use these if they lose their target, but is one kind preferable over the others?
Look again at the second picture in my post at the top of the page. There is the "second stage" section. There you specify the type and number of second stage missiles as well as the seperation range
Post by: Father Tim on March 16, 2010, 11:24:49 AM
Post by: MoonDragon on March 16, 2010, 12:03:12 PM
Quote from: "Father Tim"
You can create a missile with as many stages as you like, you just have to do it backwards. Create a warhead, then assign it as a second stage to a 'booster', then assign that as a second stage to the next, and so on.
His problem is targeting. He was wondering if you could put two different kinds of second stage missiles on the same first stage missile. Thereby putting one sensor missile and a number of warhead missiles together into a same MIRV delivery system. I understand that this is not possible, but that's what the original question was.
Now the question that I have is: once the second stage missiles get launched, what happens to the first stage booster rocket? If I put an active sensor onto it, will the payload missiles be able to use that targeting data for their own purposes?
In other words, if my carrier missile has active sensors, and 4 second stage small payload warhead missiles. The carrier missile may use its sensor to target an enemy ship, but once the payload missiles get separated, will the carrier missile still paint the enemy ship with an active radar, enough for the payload missiles to target and impact the enemy?
Post by: UnLimiTeD on March 16, 2010, 02:18:27 PM
I think I'm soon going to suggest an "on damage" trigger, so you can build an armored mirv, and if it gets hit and doesn't die, it releases it's submunitions ^^.
Post by: The Shadow on March 16, 2010, 05:02:24 PM
Quote from: "Vanigo"
Actually, you don't need sensors at all. The 'launch missiles at' command is, as you may have guessed, short for 'move to this place and launch a missile at whatever target you used last'. It's mostly useful for dropping mines and buoys. In order to launch a missile or drone at something that's not an enemy contact, you need to put a waypoint there; enemy contacts and waypoints are the only valid targets. If you select the planet you want to survey, then go to the waypoints tab and click 'last', it'll attach a waypoint to that planet. Once you've done that, the waypoint will show up as a possible target for any missile fire control in the system. It doesn't matter how big the fire control is - waypoints can be targeted by any fire control at any range - but you will need to have some sort of fire control on your geosurvey ship.
Thank you! That is very enlightening.
So "launch missiles at" means something other than what I thought - it means 'go there and shoot'. How do you specify the target, then? If I click on the waypoint in the task force screen, I suppose there'll be a new option for targeting it or something?
A fire control of *any* size works? Even 0.1 hull size? But not none. Huh. I'm not sure how to make sense of that.
Post by: Brian Neumann on March 16, 2010, 08:33:44 PM
Quote from: "The Shadow"
A fire control of *any* size works? Even 0.1 hull size? But not none. Huh. I'm not sure how to make sense of that.You need some control of where the missile is going to start with. If you don't have any controls then there is no way to feed anything to the missile. When you are firing at a waypoint the fire control is just the means of passing the info along to the missile.
Brian
Post by: The Shadow on March 17, 2010, 12:32:01 AM
What I still don't understand is how to fire just one of them.
My ship shot off its whole load of probes at once. How to prevent this?
Post by: waresky on March 17, 2010, 12:56:09 AM
onboard my Minelayer's ships ive 1 only Launch tube,and am manually operated launch performed.
When at first am put many Launchers in Minelayers design was same ur problems.
Now with single tube all gone as well.
But probably my english are too poor for explain better,and some others players can do better.
Am use too "WAYPOINT" for shoot probe or sensor drone.
Post by: sloanjh on March 17, 2010, 08:24:59 AM
Quote from: "The Shadow"
OK, I figured out how to fire missiles and drones.
What I still don't understand is how to fire just one of them.
Use the "combat overview" screen (the cross-hairs button between the tie fighter and the star at the top of the F3 screen). You'll need to only assign one launcher to the fire control, and cease fire after you've fired the first one. And use a reasonable (e.g. 5 second) advance - don't try to do huge (e.g. 1 day or even 20 minute) advances while in combat.
John
Post by: The Shadow on March 18, 2010, 01:28:08 PM
One final question (for now). How do you delete or obsolete old missile designs? They tend to get cluttered pretty fast. Is that what the missile series are for? I'm not quite sure how to work them.
Post by: MoonDragon on March 18, 2010, 02:01:33 PM
Quote from: "The Shadow"
Many thanks to all those who took the time to respond.
One final question (for now). How do you delete or obsolete old missile designs? They tend to get cluttered pretty fast. Is that what the missile series are for? I'm not quite sure how to work them.
You can obsolete any technology from the Technology Review window (including missiles).
Series, as far as I understand them, are functionally equal missiles. Which means that if your ship is set up to use missile type C, which is in the same series as type B and type A, then when you run out of stockpiles of type C, your ship will be able to load and use type B or type A missiles, without you having to change the loadout definition for the ship.
Practically speaking you would most likely use this for upgraded version of the same missile. For example, if you have AMM missiles defined and stockpiles built, and then research better agility or engines, you can update your design to be faster and more accurate. Make the new design a part of the same series as the original AMM missile. Then, as you build new stockpiles you can replace your loadouts to the better missiles. But don't delete the old missile stockpiles. If you ever get into a big fight, and run out of the new types of missiles, you can load up from the old stocks and still have ammo to fight.
This begs a question though. Can you shoot smaller sized missiles out of larger sized launchers?
Post by: UnLimiTeD on March 18, 2010, 02:14:35 PM
NO, it doesn't!
Aside, yes, it should just amount to more missiles.
Theres no advantage in bigger launchers besides the possibility for bigger missiles, though, so don't do it. Well, probably it saves cost.
Post by: Steve Walmsley on March 18, 2010, 04:32:19 PM
Quote from: "UnLimiTeD"
If that was possible, I wouldn't even have asked, however, as far as I understand it, missiles require their own sensors or the original firecontrol, otherwise, I would build a cloaked frigate with large passives and a missile guidance system, and fire long ranged missiles from very long range.You may not want that to happen. If the sub-munitions are still out of range then all you would achieve by releasing them is to do the job of the hostile point defence by mission killing your own missile. It would be better to let the MIRV try to get within release range.
I think I'm soon going to suggest an "on damage" trigger, so you can build an armored mirv, and if it gets hit and doesn't die, it releases it's submunitions ^^.
Steve
Post by: UnLimiTeD on March 19, 2010, 03:14:36 AM
Post by: Brian Neumann on March 19, 2010, 09:37:04 AM
Quote from: "UnLimiTeD"
What If I build a Mirv containining nothing but dummy missiles to fool the enemies?You can make dummy missiles to soak up the point defense. Best design that I have seen actually had a small warhead so they did some damage. Have them come in just in front of the missiles you want protected. Point defense fire is prioritized by closest then largest salvo. The idea is to shoot down the missiles that are going to hit first, and within that to target the largest salvo's so there won't be wasted shots or overkill of the salvo. While this sounds good it means that if your decoy missiles are slightly faster they will arrive first, and eat up most of the point defense on there way in leaving the real threat to penetrate.
Hope this helps you on your design work
Brian
Post by: UnLimiTeD on March 19, 2010, 11:22:51 AM
Now I just need to suggest controller missiles at some point
