Post by: Starkiller on April 10, 2009, 06:05:32 PM
the addition of 4 10cm single laser turrets. The size 1 missile launchers and the lasers both have 5 second ROF. Is this a good point defense ship?
Code: [Select]
Cornwallis Mod1 class Escort Cruiser 7000 tons 659 Crew 1732.84 BP TCS 140 TH 207.2 EM 420
4228 km/s Armour 2-32 Shields 14-240 Sensors 22/22/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 28
Annual Failure Rate: 392% IFR: 5.4% Maintenance Capacity 155 MSP Max Repair 190 MSP
Magazine 342
Magneto-plasma Drive E5.7 (8) Power 74 Efficiency 0.57 Signature 25.9 Armour 0 Exp 4%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres Range 90.2 billion km (246 days at full power)
Gamma R240/12 Shields (7) Total Fuel Cost 84 Litres per day
Single 10cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x1) Range 120,000km TS: 10000 km/s Power 3-5 RM 4 ROF 5 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (1) Max Range: 120,000 km TS: 12500 km/s 92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.925 AR-1 (1) Total Power Output 55.5 Armour 1 Exp 4%
Size 1 Missile Launcher (12) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC56-R500 (50%) (1) Range 840.0m km Resolution 500
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (342) Speed: 32,000 km/s End: 15.6m Range: 30m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 245 / 147 / 73
Active Search Sensor S56-R500 (50%) (1) GPS 28000 Range 280.0m km Resolution 500
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
ECM 10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
Eric
Post by: Kurt on April 10, 2009, 08:18:28 PM
Quote from: "Starkiller"
This is a point defense cruiser, without jump drive, that I put together. The only major difference between this one and it's jump capable variant, is
the addition of 4 10cm single laser turrets. The size 1 missile launchers and the lasers both have 5 second ROF. Is this a good point defense ship?Code: [Select]Cornwallis Mod1 class Escort Cruiser 7000 tons 659 Crew 1732.84 BP TCS 140 TH 207.2 EM 420
4228 km/s Armour 2-32 Shields 14-240 Sensors 22/22/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 28
Annual Failure Rate: 392% IFR: 5.4% Maintenance Capacity 155 MSP Max Repair 190 MSP
Magazine 342
Magneto-plasma Drive E5.7 (8) Power 74 Efficiency 0.57 Signature 25.9 Armour 0 Exp 4%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres Range 90.2 billion km (246 days at full power)
Gamma R240/12 Shields (7) Total Fuel Cost 84 Litres per day
Single 10cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x1) Range 120,000km TS: 10000 km/s Power 3-5 RM 4 ROF 5 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (1) Max Range: 120,000 km TS: 12500 km/s 92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.925 AR-1 (1) Total Power Output 55.5 Armour 1 Exp 4%
Size 1 Missile Launcher (12) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC56-R500 (50%) (1) Range 840.0m km Resolution 500
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (342) Speed: 32,000 km/s End: 15.6m Range: 30m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 245 / 147 / 73
Active Search Sensor S56-R500 (50%) (1) GPS 28000 Range 280.0m km Resolution 500
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
ECM 10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
Eric
I've got a couple of minor quibbles, and a major problem. First, unless I missed something, I think that the generator you've put in there is way too big. After all, you just have to power the laser turrets. Secondly, your turrets have a rotation speed of 10,000, but your firecons have a tracking speed of 12,500. That isn't a big one, but if possible I like to get the maximum tracking benefit possible.
Those were minor quibbles, but you've missed something that will be a problem. Your active sensor has a whopping 280 mkm range, but not against missiles. To detect and target missiles you'll need an active sensor optimized to detect missiles, otherwise you won't see them until they get too close. If this ship can rely on other ships with better anti-missile sensors, this might not be a big deal, but I wouldn't count on it.
Post by: Brian Neumann on April 10, 2009, 08:31:32 PM
Brian
Post by: Starkiller on April 10, 2009, 08:43:17 PM
for the big ships. Erik mentioned optimizing for missles, was that also refering to lowering the resolution, or was he refering to something else? Very
complicated, but fun as I try to figure this out.
Eric
Post by: Starkiller on April 10, 2009, 09:27:50 PM
Code: [Select]
Cornwallis Mod1 class Escort Cruiser 6850 tons 664 Crew 1880.04 BP TCS 137 TH 207.2 EM 420
4321 km/s Armour 2-32 Shields 14-240 Sensors 22/22/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 28
Annual Failure Rate: 375% IFR: 5.2% Maintenance Capacity 172 MSP Max Repair 210 MSP
Magazine 342
Magneto-plasma Drive E5.7 (8) Power 74 Efficiency 0.57 Signature 25.9 Armour 0 Exp 4%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres Range 92.2 billion km (246 days at full power)
Gamma R240/12 Shields (7) Total Fuel Cost 84 Litres per day
Single 10cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x1) Range 120,000km TS: 12500 km/s Power 3-5 RM 4 ROF 5 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (1) Max Range: 120,000 km TS: 12500 km/s 92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.95 AR-0 (1) Total Power Output 28.5 Armour 0 Exp 4%
Size 1 Missile Launcher (12) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (1) Range 4.2m km Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (342) Speed: 32,000 km/s End: 15.6m Range: 30m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 245 / 147 / 73
Active Search Sensor S140-R1 (50%) (1) GPS 140 Range 1.4m km Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
ECM 10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
How's this? I matched the tracking speed and turret speed, put a reactor of a more appropriate size, and reduced the resolution on both missle tracking
and active scanners. Don't know what Erik meant about optimizing for missles though. Let me know if I need to change anything else to improve it.
Eric
Post by: Brian Neumann on April 10, 2009, 09:55:47 PM
Quote
How's this? I matched the tracking speed and turret speed, put a reactor of a more appropriate size, and reduced the resolution on both missle trackingYour missiles have way more endurance than they can use. If you are using the 3.2 or later versions you can customize the size of all parts of the missile. I often only put in .01 spaces of fuel as that still gives several million km range. I put everything that I do not need for the 1 point warhead into engine and agility, going for the best to hit chance possible. Unless you have a standard class of ship that has a longer range search and fire control radar, the extra fuel space on your missile is going to reduce the missiles effectivness. Here is a typicall anti-missile from approximately your tech level.
and active scanners. Don't know what Erik meant about optimizing for missles though. Let me know if I need to change anything else to improve it.
Quote
Missile Size: 1 MSP (0.05 HS) Warhead: 1 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 27I used .03 missile space points for fuel but still had enough to double the range of your firecontrol.
Speed: 32000 km/s Endurance: 5 minutes Range: 9.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 1.2083
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 864% 3k km/s 270% 5k km/s 172.8% 10k km/s 86.4%
Materials Required: 0.25x Tritanium 0.7153x Gallicite Fuel x75
Another thing you will need to consider for larger ships is each fire controll only targets one incomming group of missiles. If there are a lot of small groups from multiple sources you can easily find yourself out of guidance to engage them even if you have enough launchers to make it effective. Here is an example. I have 5 ships each with 3 launchers. They fire a total of 15 missiles. The defending ship has 25 launchers and 1 guidance. It can only engage 1 3-missile salvo each 5 seconds. Assuming you went for the maximum number of missiles in flight (5 per attacking missile) you will have 75 missiles from 3 counter launches. If the pd missiles are slower than the incomming missiles at all then they will have a real problem engaging more than a 3 of these small salvo's. I often find that pd missiles are either slightly slower of faster than the typical attack missile at the same tech. This would let 6 missiles out of the 15 though the missile defence. In theory with a 20% or better chance of hitting that many pd missiles should have totally eliminated the incomming attack.
Given the size of your ship, and how many launchers you have, I would probably go with 2 or 3 fire-controll radars to eliminate this problem. If you haved the size of your fire-control you would still have a 2.1m km range, this is still 50% farther than the onboard search radar can see the incomming missiles. That would still give you time for about 60 counter launches even if the attacking missiles were significantly faster than what you have for your pd missile.
Hope this helps you.
Brian
Post by: Starkiller on April 10, 2009, 10:47:03 PM
Code: [Select]
Cornwallis Mod1 class Escort Cruiser 7800 tons 753 Crew 2325.44 BP TCS 156 TH 259 EM 420
4743 km/s Armour 2-35 Shields 14-240 Sensors 22/22/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 28
Annual Failure Rate: 486% IFR: 6.8% Maintenance Capacity 186 MSP Max Repair 210 MSP
Magazine 342
Magneto-plasma Drive E5.7 (10) Power 74 Efficiency 0.57 Signature 25.9 Armour 0 Exp 4%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres Range 101.2 billion km (246 days at full power)
Gamma R240/12 Shields (7) Total Fuel Cost 84 Litres per day
Single 10cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x1) Range 120,000km TS: 12500 km/s Power 3-5 RM 4 ROF 5 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (1) Max Range: 120,000 km TS: 12500 km/s 92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.95 AR-0 (1) Total Power Output 28.5 Armour 0 Exp 4%
Size 1 Missile Launcher (12) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (3) Range 4.2m km Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (342) Speed: 33,300 km/s End: 2.2m Range: 4.3m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Active Search Sensor S56-R8 (50%) (1) GPS 448 Range 4.5m km Resolution 8
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
ECM 10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
Ok, Fourth attempt and I think I got the missle about where you think it most effective, hence Mark 4.
I added 2 more missle targeting, and the range of missle scanners, missles and active scanners are about the same. I increased the resolution on
the active scanner in order to keep the size small while maintaining the range. Inceasing the antenna made it too big. I hope a resolution 8 scanner
will still pick up missles. As usual, find any flaws and let me know. I'm learning as I go, and what I learn from you in coming up with an effective
escort unit, will help me in designing other naval units. I'll need them, I think. Once I meet the opposition, I'll likely find out all the shortcomings
my current ships have, the hard way. Heh.
Post by: Beersatron on April 10, 2009, 10:50:27 PM
It wont be a problem if your based at a colony with sufficient maintenance facilities, but when your on extended deployment it could hamper your fleet.
Like the other folks said, you could probably save some space by reducing the size of the reactor. If I am reading it correctly, you only need 3 energy per each of the 4 lasers, so a generator out putting 12 should suffice (I am doing missiles only in my game, absolutely nothing else, as a test so am not 100% on that though).
Also, I don't think the ASS needs to be res1, just the MFC. If your ASS has a substantially better range that can detect the firing ships then you will have a better chance of running away
Post by: Starkiller on April 10, 2009, 11:10:35 PM
launchers. Are they not supposed to use power? If not, it must be a bug or something. :)
Eric
Post by: Hawkeye on April 11, 2009, 12:08:32 AM
Quote from: "Starkiller"
Inline
Cornwallis Mod1 class Escort Cruiser 7800 tons 753 Crew 2325.44 BP TCS 156 TH 259 EM 420
4743 km/s Armour 2-35 Shields 14-240 Sensors 22/22/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 28
Annual Failure Rate: 486% IFR: 6.8% Maintenance Capacity 186 MSP Max Repair 210 MSP
Magazine 342
I notice speed is going up. If this design is intended (as the class suggests) to accompany other ships matching speed with those it will escort, might let you pull out an engine and put some more weapons/electronics in.
As Beersatron said, you´re very light on maintenance parts. If you look at the annual failure rate, you will see that you will have almost 5 failures per year, which is a big no-no for me, if the ship is intended for deep space duty
Magneto-plasma Drive E5.7 (10) Power 74 Efficiency 0.57 Signature 25.9 Armour 0 Exp 4%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres Range 101.2 billion km (246 days at full power)
Gamma R240/12 Shields (7) Total Fuel Cost 84 Litres per day
Single 10cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x1) Range 120,000km TS: 12500 km/s Power 3-5 RM 4 ROF 5 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (1) Max Range: 120,000 km TS: 12500 km/s 92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.95 AR-0 (1) Total Power Output 28.5 Armour 0 Exp 4%
I usually go for twin or tripple mounts for PD-turrets, but this is just a personal preference. But I strongly suggest to mount at least two firecons for you turrets. Otherwise, if all turrets can only target a single salvo, why mount multiple turrets (instead of a quad turret) anyway?
And no, missile launchers are not supposed to use power, never have seen the power requirement going up when adding MLs
Size 1 Missile Launcher (12) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (3) Range 4.2m km Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (342) Speed: 33,300 km/s End: 2.2m Range: 4.3m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Active Search Sensor S56-R8 (50%) (1) GPS 448 Range 4.5m km Resolution 8
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
You might consider designing two different radar sets. A dedicated anti-missile-radar with resolution 1 and a dedicated anti-ship-radar with a resolution around "whatever I expect to encounter in terms of size". Personally, I go for resolutions of 40 to 60 and as soon as I develop FAC-engines, I put another dedicated anti-FAC-radar with resolution 20 on my list.
ECM 10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This is one of my CEs (not that I claim it to be very good, as I am also still a newbe)
Code: [Select]
Bayern IV class Escort Cruiser 8000 tons 720 Crew 1276.96 BP TCS 160 TH 660 EM 480
4125 km/s Armour 3-35 Shields 16-300 Sensors 18/18/0/0 Damage Control Rating 4 PPV 18
Annual Failure Rate: 128% IFR: 1.8% Maintenance Capacity 399 MSP Max Repair 160 MSP
Magazine 213
MTU Typ 60/0,9 Ionen Antrieb (11) Power 60 Efficiency 0.90 Signature 60 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres Range 50.0 billion km (140 days at full power)
Krupp Beta/1,5 Schutzschild (11) Total Fuel Cost 149 Litres per day
Zeiss 100mm L60/R10 Laser-Drillingsturm 52 (1x3) Range 60,000km TS: 12000 km/s Power 9-6 RM 2 ROF 10 3 3 2 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Zuse AR 72/12 Feuerleitsystem (1) Max Range: 72,000 km TS: 12000 km/s 86 72 58 44 31 17 3 0 0 0
Siemens Schneller Brüter Typ 4.5 (1) Total Power Output 4.5 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Siemens Schneller Brüter Typ 2.25 (1) Total Power Output 2.25 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Mauser Typ 1 Wespenflug ARR-Werfer (5) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 10
Zuse RFL-1,9 Anti-Raketen-Feuerleitsystem (1) Range 1.9m km Resolution 1
Moskito ARR-1 (213) Speed: 21,100 km/s End: 1.6m Range: 2m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 168 / 101 / 50
Telefunken Matterhorn II Suchradar (1) GPS 8000 Range 80.0m km Resolution 50
Telefunken Zugspitze II Raketen Suchradar (1) GPS 128 Range 1.3m km Resolution 1
Bosch Typ 18 Wärmesensor (1) Sensitivity 18 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 18m km
Bosch Typ 18 EM Sensor (1) Sensitivity 18 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 18m km
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/sThis one is still a little light on maintenance parts for my taste, but one has do make some hard desicions in warship design (you can´t have everything, you know)
Post by: Andrew on April 11, 2009, 01:44:34 AM
Quote from: "Starkiller"
I'm afraid the missle launchers take power too. I know the lasers do, but I watched the power requirement increase as I added missleMissile launchers don't use power. The only thing that does is Beam weapons. You have 4 lasers with Rating 5 capacitors sho they want 20 energy, however 10cm lasers only need 3 to recharge in 5 seconds so I woould probably only have installed Rating 3 capacitors or used a 12cm laser with a 5 second recharge as that is slightly more powerful is you have to shoot a ship.
launchers. Are they not supposed to use power? If not, it must be a bug or something. :)
Eric
My own ships use Gauss cannon for antimissile defense and they also require no power , so my missile armed ships have no reactor at all.
I prefer to have a more modular reactor anyway and generally design a size 1 reactor and then add multiple reactors if needed so for this ship I would have had 2 size1 reactors for 12 power
Post by: Starkiller on April 11, 2009, 12:39:10 PM
was the power requirement. Is it?
Eric
PS: Understand the maintenance thing, but I turned overhauls off for now, until I get a handle on the game. My ships kept breaking down, and that
was WITH extra maintenance parts. Should I sue the shipyard for using substandard parts?
Post by: Erik L on April 11, 2009, 12:49:45 PM
Quote from: "Starkiller"
On the top rows of the ship info, isn't PPV the power the ship needs? I know PPV goes up when I add launchers and turrets, so I assumed that this
was the power requirement. Is it?
Eric
PS: Understand the maintenance thing, but I turned overhauls off for now, until I get a handle on the game. My ships kept breaking down, and that
was WITH extra maintenance parts. Should I sue the shipyard for using substandard parts?
PPV is the Protection Point Value. How much the civvies think it protects them.
Let me review the thread to see what I meant about missile optimization.
Post by: Erik L on April 11, 2009, 01:02:56 PM
Anyway, I vaguely recall your missiles far out-stripping the range of the radar. That's okay if you have something that will lock onto them at that range, otherwise you'll get notices about target out of range.
Post by: Starkiller on April 11, 2009, 01:27:19 PM
I changed the resolutions on the scanners to zeroresolution mode, but should the active scanner be the same range as the missles as I did, or should the range on those be longer.
Eric
Post by: Starkiller on April 11, 2009, 01:58:47 PM
Code: [Select]
Cornwallis Mod1 class Escort Cruiser 9100 tons 888 Crew 3320.64 BP TCS 182 TH 259 EM 420
4065 km/s Armour 2-38 Shields 14-240 Sensors 22/22/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 32
Annual Failure Rate: 662% IFR: 9.2% Maintenance Capacity 228 MSP Max Repair 210 MSP
Magazine 342
Magneto-plasma Drive E5.7 (10) Power 74 Efficiency 0.57 Signature 25.9 Armour 0 Exp 4%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres Range 86.7 billion km (246 days at full power)
Gamma R240/12 Shields (7) Total Fuel Cost 84 Litres per day
Single 12cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x1) Range 120,000km TS: 12500 km/s Power 4-5 RM 4 ROF 5 4 4 4 4 3 2 2 2 1 1
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (4) Max Range: 120,000 km TS: 12500 km/s 92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.925 AR-1 (1) Total Power Output 16.65 Armour 1 Exp 4%
Size 1 Missile Launcher (12) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (4) Range 4.2m km Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (342) Speed: 33,300 km/s End: 2.2m Range: 4.3m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Active Search Sensor (missles) (1) GPS 448 Range 4.5m km Resolution 4
Active Search Sensor (2000 tons) (1) GPS 4480 Range 44.8m km Resolution 40
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
ECM 10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
Ok, let's see if I got it right. I now have 4 12cm single laser turrets that recharge 4 every 5 seconds. 4 x 4 is 16, therefore I need 16 power
and installed a reactor that generates 16.65. I have four targeting systems so each turret can target independently, and the same with the
missle launchers. In fact, if the missles and lasers can target separate salvos, the ship should, theoretically of course, be able to target 8
different salvos. An Active radar at zero res for missles, and one at 20 res for ships, with much greater range. Did I get it right? Or am
I getting confused again.
Eric
Post by: Starkiller on April 11, 2009, 02:03:54 PM
Code: [Select]
Twin 15cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (1x2) Range 120,000km TS: 10000 km/s Power 12-10 RM 4 ROF 10 6 6 6 6 4 4 3 3 2 2
Quad 20cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (1x4) Range 120,000km TS: 10000 km/s Power 40-20 RM 4 ROF 10 10 10 10 10 8 6 5 5 4 4Turrets from a different ship. I'm trying to get a handle on getting the power requirements right, so I need to know how to read this.
The twin turret recharges 12 every 10 seconds, the quad does 40 every twenty seconds. How do you judge the power requirement here?
Is it 52, or 32, or 16?
Eric
Post by: Beersatron on April 11, 2009, 02:41:19 PM
Quote from: "Starkiller"
Code: [Select]Cornwallis Mod1 class Escort Cruiser 9100 tons 888 Crew 3320.64 BP TCS 182 TH 259 EM 420
4065 km/s Armour 2-38 Shields 14-240 Sensors 22/22/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 32
Annual Failure Rate: 662% IFR: 9.2% Maintenance Capacity 228 MSP Max Repair 210 MSP
Magazine 342
Magneto-plasma Drive E5.7 (10) Power 74 Efficiency 0.57 Signature 25.9 Armour 0 Exp 4%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres Range 86.7 billion km (246 days at full power)
Gamma R240/12 Shields (7) Total Fuel Cost 84 Litres per day
Single 12cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x1) Range 120,000km TS: 12500 km/s Power 4-5 RM 4 ROF 5 4 4 4 4 3 2 2 2 1 1
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (4) Max Range: 120,000 km TS: 12500 km/s 92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.925 AR-1 (1) Total Power Output 16.65 Armour 1 Exp 4%
Size 1 Missile Launcher (12) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (4) Range 4.2m km Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (342) Speed: 33,300 km/s End: 2.2m Range: 4.3m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Active Search Sensor (missles) (1) GPS 448 Range 4.5m km Resolution 4
Active Search Sensor (2000 tons) (1) GPS 4480 Range 44.8m km Resolution 40
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
ECM 10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
Ok, let's see if I got it right. I now have 4 12cm single laser turrets that recharge 4 every 5 seconds. 4 x 4 is 16, therefore I need 16 power
and installed a reactor that generates 16.65. I have four targeting systems so each turret can target independently, and the same with the
missle launchers. In fact, if the missles and lasers can target separate salvos, the ship should, theoretically of course, be able to target 8
different salvos. An Active radar at zero res for missles, and one at 20 res for ships, with much greater range. Did I get it right? Or am
I getting confused again.
Eric
You don't actually need this:
Active Search Sensor (missles) (1) GPS 448 Range 4.5m km Resolution 4
Because this will do:
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (4) Range 4.2m km Resolution 1
I think what you should do is make the MFC have a Resolution of 0 and keep the range the same.
Post by: Andrew on April 11, 2009, 03:12:38 PM
Quote from: "Starkiller"
The capacitor is how much a weapon charges in a turn so the 15 cm and 20cm Lasers both recharge at 5 power per 5 seconds. A 15cm Laser needs 6 power and a 10cm Laser needs 10 power.Code: [Select]Twin 15cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (1x2) Range 120,000km TS: 10000 km/s Power 12-10 RM 4 ROF 10 6 6 6 6 4 4 3 3 2 2
Quad 20cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (1x4) Range 120,000km TS: 10000 km/s Power 40-20 RM 4 ROF 10 10 10 10 10 8 6 5 5 4 4
Turrets from a different ship. I'm trying to get a handle on getting the power requirements right, so I need to know how to read this.
The twin turret recharges 12 every 10 seconds, the quad does 40 every twenty seconds. How do you judge the power requirement here?
Is it 52, or 32, or 16?
Eric
in the baove examples the 15 cm lasers need 12 poer for the pair or 6 each and the 20cm lasers need 10 power each or 40 for all 4
So both your turrets need 10 seconds to recharge.
so the power is the amount needed-amount recharged in 5 seconds giving a ROF of 10seconds for both. Which means the 15cm laser would work just as well with a C3 Capacitor and be cheaper to build.
The Technology report screen sets out everything for you
Post by: sloanjh on April 11, 2009, 03:28:02 PM
Quote from: "Starkiller"
Code: [Select]Twin 15cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (1x2) Range 120,000km TS: 10000 km/s Power 12-10 RM 4 ROF 10 6 6 6 6 4 4 3 3 2 2
Quad 20cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (1x4) Range 120,000km TS: 10000 km/s Power 40-20 RM 4 ROF 10 10 10 10 10 8 6 5 5 4 4
Turrets from a different ship. I'm trying to get a handle on getting the power requirements right, so I need to know how to read this.
The twin turret recharges 12 every 10 seconds, the quad does 40 every twenty seconds. How do you judge the power requirement here?
Is it 52, or 32, or 16? :-)
Lasers take a certain amount of power to fire - looks like 6 (12 for a double mount/2 lasers per mount) for a single one of your 15cm UV Lasers. They have capacitors which store up the power needed for a shot; the capacitors then completely discharge when the laser fires. You put C5 capacitors into your design, which is the worst choice you could have possibly made
Since you've got two such lasers in your twin turret, each twin turret sucks 10 units of power per 5 second increment. Similarly, your quad sucks 20 units. If you had used C3 capacitors, these numbers would be 6 and 12, respectively, or a 40% savings.
The way to read "12-10 ROF 10" is "requires 12 units to fire, recharges 10 units/5seconds, so has a RoF of once per 10 seconds".
Power plant ratings are how many units they put out per 5 seconds. So your power requirements as built are 10*doubles + 20*quads.
Hope that helped.
John
Post by: Starkiller on April 11, 2009, 04:09:14 PM
my ships are properly refitted. I'm now three transits out, and the chances of running into Precursers or a NPR are getting higher. As it stands, my ships
will get plastered. Fortunately, I NOW know how to fix the missle targetting. Now I'd better get cracking on the lasers.
Eric
Post by: Starkiller on April 11, 2009, 05:06:55 PM
Code: [Select]
Cornwallis Mod1 class Escort Cruiser 9000 tons 888 Crew 3139.84 BP TCS 180 TH 259 EM 420
4111 km/s Armour 2-38 Shields 14-240 Sensors 22/22/0/0 Damage Control Rating 3 PPV 32
Annual Failure Rate: 216% IFR: 3% Maintenance Capacity 654 MSP Max Repair 210 MSP
Magazine 342
Magneto-plasma Drive E5.7 (10) Power 74 Efficiency 0.57 Signature 25.9 Armour 0 Exp 4%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres Range 87.7 billion km (246 days at full power)
Gamma R240/12 Shields (7) Total Fuel Cost 84 Litres per day
Single 12cm C4 Ultraviolet Laser Mk2 Turret (4x1) Range 120,000km TS: 12500 km/s Power 4-4 RM 4 ROF 5 4 4 4 4 3 2 2 2 1 1
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (4) Max Range: 120,000 km TS: 12500 km/s 92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.925 AR-1 (1) Total Power Output 16.65 Armour 1 Exp 4%
Size 1 Missile Launcher (12) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (4) Range 4.2m km Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (342) Speed: 33,300 km/s End: 2.2m Range: 4.3m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Active Search Sensor (2000 tons) (1) GPS 4480 Range 44.8m km Resolution 40
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
ECM 10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
Point defense cruiser with modded lasers. Since 12 cm lasers use 4 power, I changed the capacitors from C5 to C4.
Code: [Select]
Quad 20cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (1x4) Range 120,000km TS: 12500 km/s Power 40-20 RM 4 ROF 10 10 10 10 10 8 6 5 5 4 4
Twin 15cm C3 Ultraviolet Laser Mk2 Turret (2x2) Range 120,000km TS: 12500 km/s Power 12-6 RM 4 ROF 10 6 6 6 6 4 4 3 3 2 2
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (1) Max Range: 120,000 km TS: 12500 km/s 92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.925 AR-1 (1) Total Power Output 27.75 Armour 1 Exp 4%EDIT: Put the proper gun states in. I had the wrong 20 cm laser turret on the ship.
The guns from the other ship with modded lasers and a lower power supply. How did I do?
Eric
Post by: Starkiller on April 11, 2009, 05:11:09 PM
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Quad 20cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (1x4) Range 120,000km TS: 12500 km/s Power 40-20 RM 4 ROF 10 10 10 10 10 8 6 5 5 4 4
Twin 15cm C3 Ultraviolet Laser Mk2 Turret (1x2) Range 120,000km TS: 12500 km/s Power 12-6 RM 4 ROF 10 6 6 6 6 4 4 3 3 2 2
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (1) Max Range: 120,000 km TS: 12500 km/s 92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.925 AR-1 (1) Total Power Output 27.75 Armour 1 Exp 4%Eric
Post by: Erik L on April 11, 2009, 07:00:21 PM
Quote from: "Starkiller"
Heh, I thought it was power. I guess all my ships are over reactored. Refits, here we come.
resolution mode, but should the active scanner be the same range as the missles as I did, or should the range on those be longer.
Eric
If your scanners cannot see past to the full extent of your missiles, then you are wasting a lot of potential engagement range. And I think someone pointed out, you should have more than 1 fire control suite. I tend to prefer 1 suite per 3-5 weapons; more FC for beams and less for missiles, i.e. 1 FC per 3 lasers (or 1 quad mount), and 1 FC per 5 AM tubes.
Post by: Brian Neumann on April 11, 2009, 10:29:56 PM
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Cornwallis Mod1 class Escort Cruiser 9000 tons 888 Crew 3139.84 BP TCS 180 TH 259 EM 420
4111 km/s Armour 2-38 Shields 14-240 Sensors 22/22/0/0 Damage Control Rating 3 PPV 32
Annual Failure Rate: 216% IFR: 3% Maintenance Capacity 654 MSP Max Repair 210 MSP
Magazine 342
Magneto-plasma Drive E5.7 (10) Power 74 Efficiency 0.57 Signature 25.9 Armour 0 Exp 4%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres Range 87.7 billion km (246 days at full power)
Gamma R240/12 Shields (7) Total Fuel Cost 84 Litres per day
Single 12cm C4 Ultraviolet Laser Mk2 Turret (4x1) Range 120,000km TS: 12500 km/s Power 4-4 RM 4 ROF 5 4 4 4 4 3 2 2 2 1 1
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (4) Max Range: 120,000 km TS: 12500 km/s 92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.925 AR-1 (1) Total Power Output 16.65 Armour 1 Exp 4%
Size 1 Missile Launcher (12) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (4) Range 4.2m km Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (342) Speed: 33,300 km/s End: 2.2m Range: 4.3m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Active Search Sensor (2000 tons) (1) GPS 4480 Range 44.8m km Resolution 40
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
ECM 10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
You still need some sort of active search radar that will see the missiles. If you do not, then the fire control can not target them. To see the missiles you will need a active search sensor with a resolution of 1. this will give you the maximum detection range against those missiles. You are going to want at least 1m km search radar, I personally would prefer a 1.5m km minimum. This will allow you to see the missiles and get 5 counter launches on the first salvo, and between 2 and 5 against follow-on salvo's. I know this is well below the fire controll range you have currently, but this is the bare minimum to have a usefull point defense missile setup. If you have a dedicated sensor ship with a really big active sensor to detect missiles then your escorts will be able to use thier full range. Based on having an active sensor strength of 21 it will take a 5hs unit to detect missile's at 1m km, 7hs for a 1.47m km, and a 20hs unit to get the full range of 4.2m km. You can see why I recommend a dedicated capital unit for that kind of extended sensor range at these tech levels.Brian
Post by: Starkiller on April 11, 2009, 10:44:04 PM
missle range.
I'll experiment a bit to see how far I can push it. I's be satisfied with have the missle range if I can shoe-horn it in. Other than that,would you say the rest of the ship systems would pass muster if I can get the active sensor set properly? Also, I have a dedicated missle ship which
includes size 4 anti-ship launchers and size 1 anti-missle launchers. I have two separate MFC systems, with a res 1 for the counter missles. I'd need
two active system as well, wouldn't I? One to detect ships, and one to detect incoming missles.
Eric
Post by: Starkiller on April 11, 2009, 11:13:02 PM
Code: [Select]
Cornwallis Mod1 class Escort Cruiser 9000 tons 871 Crew 3237.84 BP TCS 180 TH 259 EM 420
4111 km/s Armour 2-38 Shields 14-240 Sensors 22/22/0/0 Damage Control Rating 3 PPV 27
Annual Failure Rate: 216% IFR: 3% Maintenance Capacity 675 MSP Max Repair 672 MSP
Magazine 342
Magneto-plasma Drive E5.7 (10) Power 74 Efficiency 0.57 Signature 25.9 Armour 0 Exp 4%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres Range 105.3 billion km (296 days at full power)
Gamma R240/12 Shields (7) Total Fuel Cost 84 Litres per day
Single 12cm C4 Ultraviolet Laser Mk2 Turret (3x1) Range 120,000km TS: 12500 km/s Power 4-4 RM 4 ROF 5 4 4 4 4 3 2 2 2 1 1
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (3) Max Range: 120,000 km TS: 12500 km/s 92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.925 AR-1 (1) Total Power Output 16.65 Armour 1 Exp 4%
Size 1 Missile Launcher (12) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (3) Range 4.2m km Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (342) Speed: 33,300 km/s End: 2.2m Range: 4.3m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Active Search Sensor S448-R1 (50%) (1) GPS 448 Range 4.5m km Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
ECM 10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
Not too much trouble. I removed one laser turret, and the control system for it. I also removed one MFC. I replaced the old active scanner
with a res 1 out to the maximum range for the missles, and managed to hold the ship weight at the same 9000 tons. Hopefully, this can
do the trick. 40 to 60 res is good enough for antiship missles though, isn't it?
Eric
Post by: Erik L on April 11, 2009, 11:19:45 PM
Quote from: "Starkiller"
Not too much trouble. I removed one laser turret, and the control system for it. I also removed one MFC. I replaced the old active scanner
with a res 1 out to the maximum range for the missles, and managed to hold the ship weight at the same 9000 tons. Hopefully, this can
do the trick. 40 to 60 res is good enough for antiship missles though, isn't it?
Eric
I build my anti-ship FC to see the smallest ship I field.
Post by: Hawkeye on April 12, 2009, 06:27:17 AM
Only a small nitpick:
You pulled out one of the laserturrets, so your power requirement went down to 12. By putting in a smaller power plant, you might be able to
a) sqeeze in another shield or two or
b) pull out a shield or two and up the armor level
because I still think your cruiser is rather weak on the passive defenses (for my taste, that is)
Post by: waresky on April 12, 2009, 08:14:12 AM
ive encouter an damned power race,lucky only one planets..BUT armed wih a damned good fleet (19 ships from 6350 to 18000 (!!) tons range size..6 of them r BB Class..damned Steve:)))))..
Ok ive wins in space in 3 hard battle,ive loose some good crews and 4 skilled DDG,1 CG and 2 DE..all good..BUT only battle u can test ur design.
Ive sieged enemy planets,destroyed orbital shipyard and waitn for my Space mobile Infantry for assault.For some reason ive lost near 1 year in waitn..and from another jump point incoming another dastardly squadroon,but this r same my ship's velocity so last battle was become very blooded...
never waitn too time.Or u give too technologycal infos at enemy's sensors...zzzz..
Post by: Brian Neumann on April 12, 2009, 08:59:38 AM
Quote from: "Starkiller"
True. I was hoping res 40 would be low enough to see missles. As you mentioned, I already discovered the space problem with res 1 at maximumYes, you will need to have two active systems. The problem with missile detection active sensor is that it is extremely short ranged against anything larger than a missile. I usually try to put on a small missile detection radar on all ships that can see out slightly farther than the pd weapons on the ship. This is usually a .5 or 1 hull space radar installation. I then put a bigger resolution radar on that is 2-3hs for detecting ships. With dedicated escorts I usually invert this with an active sensor of .5hs that has a resolution of 20. This will allow me to target them with my weapons, and see them at a few million km. For longer range detection they are relying on the ships they are escorting. Then they will add in their missile detection system with usually 5hs on smaller ships 8-10 on larger escorts.
missle range.
would you say the rest of the ship systems would pass muster if I can get the active sensor set properly? Also, I have a dedicated missle ship which
includes size 4 anti-ship launchers and size 1 anti-missle launchers. I have two separate MFC systems, with a res 1 for the counter missles. I'd need
two active system as well, wouldn't I? One to detect ships, and one to detect incoming missles.
Eric
One little trick to note is that the .5hs anti-missile active sensor is very hard to detect with em sensors, but it will usually see out to effective beam weapon ranges. I have been known to have just that system on a coupld of small ships (FAC) active so that my pd beam weapons are up, and knowbody can get into point blank range without me seeing them. This lets you move a fleet in without the massive active sensor signature which can often be seen across a solar system without giving up all anti-missile defences.
Brian
Post by: Starkiller on April 12, 2009, 10:58:56 PM
missle tech. Do I need a res 1 active sensor if I'm usin Lasers for PD, or is that only for missles? The other thing they suggested was speed. While it
seriously ups the explostion potential, the survey cruiser clocked the precursor at 7900 km/s before being destroyed, so I need all the speed I can get
out of them. :)
Eric
Post by: Starkiller on April 12, 2009, 11:08:48 PM
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Revenge class Battlecruiser 9000 tons 986 Crew 3197.4 BP TCS 180 TH 515.2 EM 240
8177 km/s Armour 1-38 Shields 8-300 Sensors 11/11/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 48
Annual Failure Rate: 648% IFR: 9% Maintenance Capacity 222 MSP Max Repair 672 MSP
Magneto-plasma Drive E6.5 (16) Power 92 Efficiency 0.65 Signature 32.2 Armour 0 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres Range 61.5 billion km (87 days at full power)
Delta R300/12.5 Shields (3) Total Fuel Cost 38 Litres per day
Twin 10cm C3 Ultraviolet Laser Mk2 Turret (2x2) Range 120,000km TS: 12500 km/s Power 6-6 RM 4 ROF 5 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Single 20cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x1) Range 160,000km TS: 12500 km/s Power 10-5 RM 4 ROF 10 10 10 10 10 8 6 5 5 4 4
Fire Control S04 80-12500 H50 (2) Max Range: 160,000 km TS: 12500 km/s 94 88 81 75 69 62 56 50 44 38
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.925 AR-0 (3) Total Power Output 33.3 Armour 0 Exp 4%
Active Search Sensor S448-R1 (50%) (1) GPS 448 Range 4.5m km Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor S56-R70 (50%)Mk2 (1) GPS 3920 Range 39.2m km Resolution 70
Thermal Sensor TH1-11 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 11 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 11m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-11 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 11 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 11m km
Eric
Post by: Starkiller on April 12, 2009, 11:32:05 PM
missles for PD, that they are as defended as they can be.
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Vengeance class Battlecruiser 12000 tons 1279 Crew 3612.88 BP TCS 240 TH 676.2 EM 240
8050 km/s Armour 1-46 Shields 8-300 Sensors 22/22/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 50
Annual Failure Rate: 1152% IFR: 16% Maintenance Capacity 188 MSP Max Repair 672 MSP
Magazine 718
Magneto-plasma Drive E6.5 (21) Power 92 Efficiency 0.65 Signature 32.2 Armour 0 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres Range 11.5 billion km (16 days at full power)
Delta R300/12.5 Shields (3) Total Fuel Cost 38 Litres per day
Size 1 Missile Launcher (10) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
Size 4 Missile Launcher Mk2 (10) Missile Size 4 Rate of Fire 20
Missile Fire Control FC28-R45 (50%) Mk2 (1) Range 37.8m km Resolution 45
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (1) Range 4.2m km Resolution 1
Size 4 Anti-ship Missile Mk2 (140) Speed: 32,000 km/s End: 19.5m Range: 37.5m km WH: 4 Size: 4 TH: 224 / 134 / 67
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (158) Speed: 33,300 km/s End: 2.2m Range: 4.3m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Active Search Sensor S56-R70 (50%)Mk2 (1) GPS 3920 Range 39.2m km Resolution 70
Active Search Sensor S448-R1 (50%) (1) GPS 448 Range 4.5m km Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
Eric
Post by: Beersatron on April 13, 2009, 12:39:52 AM
Post by: Hawkeye on April 13, 2009, 12:46:26 AM
What did kill the survey ship? Missiles, lasers?
My own survey squad was ambushed by a single precurser DD of 5.000t that was armed with 20cm UV-lasers and my desron made short work of it with missiles from outside his laser range. That being said, it took about 40 strength 3 missile hits (note: hits, not missiles, I used about 120 missiles all in all) to take the ship out and intel told me he had armor 1, so his shields had to be quite strong (the first wave of 25 hits didn´t even slow the bugger down)
If you get a thermal reading and a speed reading, you can calculate the mass of the enemy ship (asuming he doesn´t use thermal reduction for his engines)
A thermal sig of 100 translates to engine power 100, which is enough to propel a 1000t ship at 5000km/s.
My precursor above had a thermal sig of 600 and closed at 6200km/s which gave a mass of about 4800t. This estimate was later confirmed by active scans.
Formula seems to be Power / Speed x 50.000
If your precurser has PD, I fear your beamers will be ripped appart, while trying to close to range, given the passive defenses (or more correctly, the lack of them) on your designs
If the precurser don´t use missiles, your PD-turrets are wasted space (and, looking at the tracking/targeting speed and what the precursor missile stats are (33.000km/s, ECM 20, Warhead 18, Size 6), that I found in ruins I wouldn´t count on them to stop a whole lot of enemy missiles anyway)
Probably better to put the saved mass into shields/armor
Note: I sometimes skimp on passives on my missile ships, on the theory, that they can stand out of harms way, while pounding the enemy (not that it allways works, mind you) but my close in fighters will have rather heavy passives. What good is it to have powerfull battlecruisers, if they blow up when someone throws a pebble at them?
Thinking of jutland, the classification of your ships seems most appropriate, they will probably blow up like the BCs there
Post by: Starkiller on April 13, 2009, 12:50:40 AM
two ships against the precursor and I'm in trouble. This is why a test mode would be good. My antiship missles are ranged at 37 million kilometres,
so is my targeting system, yet the range on the combat display was far FAR less, so I upped the FC range in the design to 200 million kilometres,
and on the display, it says the range is a mere 560 thousand kilometres! Despite the fact that all sensors and MFCs are ranged high, and my missles
as well, yet I can't fire because for some reason, the combat display insists my range is far lower! Can someone help me figure this out?
The bugger is in range and I should have time to fire at least three salvos before he gets near me. Is this advanced ECM in action. ?
Eric
Post by: Starkiller on April 13, 2009, 12:57:09 AM
Precursor Top Speed - 7743 km/s
25 cm Far Ultraviolet Lasers
No nissle weapons apparently
These are just test design, while the precursor is my test subject.
The survey vessel was struck several times by the laser, no missle was ever fired. The bugger got to knife range before he finally
destroyed the ship.
Eric
Post by: Starkiller on April 13, 2009, 01:33:08 AM
Eric
Post by: Hawkeye on April 13, 2009, 03:48:43 AM
Hint: Put a waypoint in the system-map-view on the wreck. I didn´t and was never able to find the wreck again, after I researched salvaging tech :) )
Post by: waresky on April 13, 2009, 06:06:44 AM
Lucky are an Jump-point near us..otherwise situations goes very bad.
Now am think what PD i can use toward an enemy so fast..and this dastardly USE missiles,because ive lost a good SCL-magellan from 13Nuke hits
Post by: SteveAlt on April 13, 2009, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: "Starkiller"
Heh, I thought it was power. I guess all my ships are over reactored. Refits, here we come.Welcome to the fun of Aurora ship design. Getting a well-balanced ship can be a challenge but it is also very satisfying when you come up with a design you like. Here is a design from my current campaign that has done well in action, although it only has eggshell armour. The trick is lining up your active sensor, fire control and missile ranges so they are relatively equal, although sometimes you will be charging toward or retreating from an enemy so the effective ranges can fluctuate a little. In this case the missile has more range than it needs but it was designed to be used by this cruiser and also a planetary defence base that has longer ranged fire control and sensors
resolution mode, but should the active scanner be the same range as the missles as I did, or should the range on those be longer.
Code: [Select]
Tribal III class Escort Cruiser 6000 tons 509 Crew 849.6 BP TCS 120 TH 540 EM 0
4500 km/s Armour 1-29 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 3 PPV 12
Annual Failure Rate: 96% IFR: 1.3% Maintenance Capacity 266 MSP Max Repair 96 MSP
Magazine 732
NPO Energomash Ion Drive (9) Power 60 Efficiency 0.80 Signature 60 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 150,000 Litres Range 56.3 billion km (144 days at full power)
AML-15 Missile Launcher (12) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 15
AMF-960 Missile Fire Control (2) Range 960k km Resolution 1
SA-N-2 Gauntlet (732) Speed: 25,400 km/s End: 1.8m Range: 2.7m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 194 / 116 / 58
MD960 Missile Detection Sensor (1) GPS 96 Range 960k km Resolution 1With regard to resolution, an active sensor or fire control will detect/track objects of a size equal or less than the resolution out to maximum range. The size of a ship is equal to its tonnage / 50 so a 5000 ton ship is size 100. That means that an active sensor with a range of 60m kilometers and a resolution of 120 will be able to detect ships of 6000 tons or greater at 60m kilometers. Smaller ships can only be detected at shorter ranges. The formula for detecting smaller ships is:
Maximum Sensor Range x (Target Ship Size / Sensor Resolution)^2
For example, if the active sensor above (range 60m, resolution 120) was trying to detect a 4500 ton ship (size 90), the detection range would be: 60m x (90/120)^2 = 33.75m kilometers
For a 2000 ton ship the range would be 60m x (40/120)^2 = 6.67m
For a missile (which is treated as size 1), the detection range would be 60m x (1/120)^2 = 0.0042m (or about 4,200 km)
Picking the right resolution is key to good sensor design. Larger resolutions give you more range but you can miss smaller ships. For missile detection both fire control and active sensor need to be resolution zero
Steve
Post by: SteveAlt on April 13, 2009, 01:18:48 PM
Quote from: "Hawkeye"
My own survey squad was ambushed by a single precurser DD of 5.000t that was armed with 20cm UV-lasers and my desron made short work of it with missiles from outside his laser range. That being said, it took about 40 strength 3 missile hits (note: hits, not missiles, I used about 120 missiles all in all) to take the ship out and intel told me he had armor 1, so his shields had to be quite strong (the first wave of 25 hits didn´t even slow the bugger downIntel will only reveal how much armour was penetrated by one hit. As the size 3 missiles have a flat pattern that wipes away 3 armour boxes from the same layer, intel will always report them as penetrating 1 level of armour. So it's possible the Precursor had better armour.
Steve
Post by: SteveAlt on April 13, 2009, 01:21:09 PM
Quote from: "Starkiller"
I noted the low full and added a few fuel tanks. For some reason, I always notice flaws AFTER I post, but now I'm entering the system to test theseECM will also reduce the range although it also depends on your sensor resolution. If you had an active sensor with resolution 500 and a range of 40m and it was only a 5000 ton ship, the detection range would be 1.6 million.
two ships against the precursor and I'm in trouble. This is why a test mode would be good. My antiship missles are ranged at 37 million kilometres,
so is my targeting system, yet the range on the combat display was far FAR less, so I upped the FC range in the design to 200 million kilometres,
and on the display, it says the range is a mere 560 thousand kilometres! Despite the fact that all sensors and MFCs are ranged high, and my missles
as well, yet I can't fire because for some reason, the combat display insists my range is far lower! Can someone help me figure this out?
The bugger is in range and I should have time to fire at least three salvos before he gets near me. Is this advanced ECM in action. ?
Steve
Post by: sloanjh on April 13, 2009, 01:23:23 PM
Quote from: "SteveAlt"
Quote from: "Hawkeye"My own survey squad was ambushed by a single precurser DD of 5.000t that was armed with 20cm UV-lasers and my desron made short work of it with missiles from outside his laser range. That being said, it took about 40 strength 3 missile hits (note: hits, not missiles, I used about 120 missiles all in all) to take the ship out and intel told me he had armor 1, so his shields had to be quite strong (the first wave of 25 hits didn´t even slow the bugger downIntel will only reveal how much armour was penetrated by one hit. As the size 3 missiles have a flat pattern that wipes away 3 armour boxes from the same layer, intel will always report them as penetrating 1 level of armour. So it's possible the Precursor had better armour.
Steve
Are the penetration patterns pictured anywhere in the game? I know that a strength 13 warhead has 7 points absorbed in the 1st layer of armor, but letting precursors blow up your ships is a rather expensive way of determining this
John
Post by: SteveAlt on April 13, 2009, 01:27:30 PM
Quote from: "sloanjh"
Quote from: "SteveAlt"Are the penetration patterns pictured anywhere in the game? I know that a strength 13 warhead has 7 points absorbed in the 1st layer of armor, but letting precursors blow up your ships is a rather expensive way of determining this :)Quote from: "Hawkeye"My own survey squad was ambushed by a single precurser DD of 5.000t that was armed with 20cm UV-lasers and my desron made short work of it with missiles from outside his laser range. That being said, it took about 40 strength 3 missile hits (note: hits, not missiles, I used about 120 missiles all in all) to take the ship out and intel told me he had armor 1, so his shields had to be quite strong (the first wave of 25 hits didn´t even slow the bugger downIntel will only reveal how much armour was penetrated by one hit. As the size 3 missiles have a flat pattern that wipes away 3 armour boxes from the same layer, intel will always report them as penetrating 1 level of armour. So it's possible the Precursor had better armour.
Steve
Post by: Erik L on April 13, 2009, 04:04:29 PM
Quote from: "Hawkeye"
Yes, you can salvage a wreck and you might get some tech-knowledge out of it.
Hint: Put a waypoint in the system-map-view on the wreck. I didn´t and was never able to find the wreck again, after I researched salvaging tech :) )
There should be on the F12 orders screen a toggle for wrecks. This will allow you to use them as destinations for fleets.
Q for Steve, do the NPRs salvage wrecks?
Post by: SteveAlt on April 13, 2009, 05:29:45 PM
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
Not at the moment, although I will add it at some point. With regard to wrecks, you have to detect them on active sensors before you can use them as a destinationQuote from: "Hawkeye"Yes, you can salvage a wreck and you might get some tech-knowledge out of it.
Hint: Put a waypoint in the system-map-view on the wreck. I didn´t and was never able to find the wreck again, after I researched salvaging tech :) )
There should be on the F12 orders screen a toggle for wrecks. This will allow you to use them as destinations for fleets.
Q for Steve, do the NPRs salvage wrecks?
Steve
Post by: Starkiller on April 14, 2009, 10:59:11 PM
warp point, then send Revenge and Vengeance to check it out, and left the Hun equivalent sitting on the WP with long range passives only. Detected 3
ships closing in at the same speed as the one in Wolf 424, so thinking it was the same type of ship, I closed, intending the use Vengeance to pound them
with missle, damaging them enough for Revenge to get close and blow them away with lasers. Know what they say about the best laid plans of mice and men? :)
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc304/Greywolf_Starkiller/1-Aurora-survey9.jpg)
Greywolf
Post by: Beersatron on April 15, 2009, 12:23:21 PM
5x 9000 Ton Light Cruisers with 5 armour and 5 size 8/warhead 8 missile launchers each. Ship speed 4000km/s, missile speed 8000km/s.
4x 7500 Ton Escort Cruisers with 5 armour and 16 size 1/warhead 1 missile launchers each. Ship speed 4000km/s, missile speed 16000km/s.
I am not at home, so can't copy in the exact class designs.
Jumped in on and moved away in opposite direction to the fuzzy contacts sitting on the WP. Lost 1 CL within 20 seconds to lasers and massed salvos of strength 7 missiles and took damage to another CL. My active sensors finally stabilized and I detected one close in lazer ship and 3 missile ships moving away from me. The lazer ship got spanked, much-joy! So I kept on running to give my CLEs time multi salvo the incloming missiles.
Problems:
1. Enemy ships were doing 7000km/s so my ship killer missiles only had an overtake of 1000km/s and they were a good bit away by the time I could target them.
2. They had salvos of 13 missiles each, strength 7 missiles that did 23000km/s.
Suffice to say, my CLE had a tough job and interception rates were 17% I think, possibly even less actually.
I think the fight lasted about 3 minutes of 5 second increments, all the CLs were destroyed one by one - they lasted longer than I thought they would though. And then I lost two of the CLEs. My anti missiles ran dry and the same time as their ship killers ran try! I headed back to the WP and scooped the lifepods, but the problem is that I am now stuck in the system with no way to rearm. I have a jump capable gravsurvey ship that has jump drive of 8000 tons but the ship itself is only 6000 tons so it wont work with the 7500 ton CLEs.
The 3 enemy missile ships are sitting a couple of million KM off the WP. Even if I had missiles they can outrun my CLEs before they get into firing range.
How does NPR/Precursor missile resupply work? Will they get auto-reload by magics?!
Post by: SteveAlt on April 16, 2009, 08:46:57 AM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
How does NPR/Precursor missile resupply work? Will they get auto-reload by magics?!NPRs build their own missiles and have to visit the colony with the ordnance factories to resupply. They will head for home if they need more missiles. I meant to give Precursors some ammo dumps on asteroids, etc but I think I forgot in v4.0 so they will run out eventually.
Steve
Post by: Beersatron on April 16, 2009, 12:32:30 PM
Quote from: "SteveAlt"
Quote from: "Beersatron"How does NPR/Precursor missile resupply work? Will they get auto-reload by magics?!NPRs build their own missiles and have to visit the colony with the ordnance factories to resupply. They will head for home if they need more missiles. I meant to give Precursors some ammo dumps on asteroids, etc but I think I forgot in v4.0 so they will run out eventually.
Steve
I crashed researched-built a small Collier and resupplied my two surviving CLEs with AMMs. Tried chasing the Enemy ships down but they just ran away once I entered their ASS range.
So, I brought in some Geo and Grav survey ships and went to work. I have thus far found two contacts on moons, one a Thermal 5 and the other a Thermal 10. Destroyed them using the CLEs. The thing is, I still get the event reports stating that there is an alien colony in the system but I have searched every cluster of planets and moons with 40km range ASS and the Geo ship so I am a bit lost.
Thermal 5 and 10 do not seem that large - I am guessing that they are Precursor sensor bases or similar?
Either I am looking at the wrong window or else there really are no ruins in the system. Ruins are displayed on the System Map under 'Display 2' tab, right?
Post by: SteveAlt on April 16, 2009, 12:51:42 PM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
Thermal 5 and 10 do not seem that large - I am guessing that they are Precursor sensor bases or similar?Yes they are, but you have to detect them with geosurvey sensors. The small thermal contacts will be precursor sensor bases
Either I am looking at the wrong window or else there really are no ruins in the system. Ruins are displayed on the System Map under 'Display 2' tab, right?
Steve
Post by: sloanjh on April 16, 2009, 04:51:56 PM
Quote from: "SteveAlt"
Quote from: "Beersatron"Thermal 5 and 10 do not seem that large - I am guessing that they are Precursor sensor bases or similar?Yes they are, but you have to detect them with geosurvey sensors. The small thermal contacts will be precursor sensor bases
Either I am looking at the wrong window or else there really are no ruins in the system. Ruins are displayed on the System Map under 'Display 2' tab, right?
Steve
Should I bother trying to land troops on a planet with a sensor base? Don't tell me if the Precursors will react - I want to be surprised
Instead, I'm asking if I can capture the bases through the ground combat mechanisms if I drop troops in. Also, is there a way to shoot at them? I tried detecting them with active sensors and got nothing - I don't have any warships in the system so I don't know if I can lock them up as populations...Thanks,
John
Post by: Cassaralla on April 16, 2009, 05:26:00 PM
Post by: Starkiller on April 16, 2009, 08:10:37 PM
half their range. I was testing four difference battlecruiser designs to see how they functioned in combat. The result actually surprised me.
All four had point defense suites, if they hadn't, the fleet would have been destroyed before getting into missle range.
The first design is a modified Revenge class BC. In the battle, her PD lasers were of limited use due to a tracking speed much too low
to effectively track Precursor missles. The 20cm lasers never got into range, though they were of some VERY limited use in PD mode.
Code: [Select]
Revenge class Battlecruiser 12000 tons 1256 Crew 4364 BP TCS 240 TH 611.8 EM 450
7283 km/s Armour 3-46 Shields 15-300 Sensors 11/11/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 64
Annual Failure Rate: 1152% IFR: 16% Maintenance Capacity 227 MSP Max Repair 672 MSP
Magneto-plasma Drive E6.5 (19) Power 92 Efficiency 0.65 Signature 32.2 Armour 0 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres Range 46.2 billion km (73 days at full power)
Delta R300/12.5 Shields (6) Total Fuel Cost 75 Litres per day
Twin 10cm C3 Ultraviolet Laser Mk2 Turret (4x2) Range 120,000km TS: 12500 km/s Power 6-6 RM 4 ROF 5 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Single 20cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x1) Range 160,000km TS: 12500 km/s Power 10-5 RM 4 ROF 10 10 10 10 10 8 6 5 5 4 4
Fire Control S04 80-12500 H50 (5) Max Range: 160,000 km TS: 12500 km/s 94 88 81 75 69 62 56 50 44 38
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.925 AR-0 (3) Total Power Output 33.3 Armour 0 Exp 4%
Active Search Sensor S56-R70 (50%)Mk2 (1) GPS 3920 Range 39.2m km Resolution 70
Active Search Sensor S448-R1 (50%) (1) GPS 448 Range 4.5m km Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH1-11 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 11 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 11m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-11 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 11 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 11m km
Next up is the Vendetta class BC, with both PD missles and size 4 anti-ship missles. Her anti-ship missle batteries did well, though the slow firing
rate couldn't match up to the Precursor ships, which had size 5, strength 12 missles with a 5 second ROF. (OUCHIE!) Also, her point defense was too
light to be very effective, and as such, she and her sisters got pounded hard.
Code: [Select]
Vendetta class Battlecruiser 12000 tons 1197 Crew 3706.88 BP TCS 240 TH 644 EM 450
7666 km/s Armour 1-46 Shields 15-300 Sensors 88/88/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 36
Annual Failure Rate: 1152% IFR: 16% Maintenance Capacity 193 MSP Max Repair 672 MSP
Magazine 704
Magneto-plasma Drive E6.5 (20) Power 92 Efficiency 0.65 Signature 32.2 Armour 0 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres Range 46.1 billion km (69 days at full power)
Delta R300/12.5 Shields (6) Total Fuel Cost 75 Litres per day
Size 1 Missile Launcher (4) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
Size 4 Missile Launcher Mk2 (8) Missile Size 4 Rate of Fire 20
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (1) Range 4.2m km Resolution 1
Missile Fire Control FC28-R105 (50%)mk2 (1) Range 88.2m km Resolution 105
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (100) Speed: 33,300 km/s End: 2.2m Range: 4.3m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Size 4 Anti-ship Missile mk3 (151) Speed: 23,200 km/s End: 61.4m Range: 85.5m km WH: 4 Size: 4 TH: 178 / 106 / 53
Active Search Sensor S84-R105 (50%)mk2 (1) GPS 8820 Range 88.2m km Resolution 105
Active Search Sensor S448-R1 (50%) (1) GPS 448 Range 4.5m km Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH8-88 (50%)mk2 (1) Sensitivity 88 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 88m km
EM Detection Sensor EM8-88 (50%)mk2 (1) Sensitivity 88 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 88m km
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
Next up is the Vengeance class BC. Size 5 with long range, but the same limited warhead as Vendetta's size 4s. Missle batteries didn't do too badly, but.
too light, too few, and too long a ROF to be effective, though the PD suite fared better.
Code: [Select]
Vengeance class Battlecruiser 12000 tons 1197 Crew 3706.88 BP TCS 240 TH 644 EM 450
7666 km/s Armour 1-46 Shields 15-300 Sensors 88/88/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 36
Annual Failure Rate: 1152% IFR: 16% Maintenance Capacity 193 MSP Max Repair 672 MSP
Magazine 704
Magneto-plasma Drive E6.5 (20) Power 92 Efficiency 0.65 Signature 32.2 Armour 0 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres Range 46.1 billion km (69 days at full power)
Delta R300/12.5 Shields (6) Total Fuel Cost 75 Litres per day
Size 5 Missile Launcher mk2 (6) Missile Size 5 Rate of Fire 25
Size 1 Missile Launcher (6) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC28-R105 (50%)mk2 (1) Range 88.2m km Resolution 105
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (1) Range 4.2m km Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (158) Speed: 33,300 km/s End: 2.2m Range: 4.3m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Size 5 Anti-ship Missile (112) Speed: 28,200 km/s End: 51.1m Range: 86.5m km WH: 4 Size: 5 TH: 188 / 112 / 56
Active Search Sensor S84-R105 (50%)mk2 (1) GPS 8820 Range 88.2m km Resolution 105
Active Search Sensor S448-R1 (50%) (1) GPS 448 Range 4.5m km Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH8-88 (50%)mk2 (1) Sensitivity 88 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 88m km
EM Detection Sensor EM8-88 (50%)mk2 (1) Sensitivity 88 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 88m km
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
It was the Vilknarma class BC that surprised me with it's effectiveness. Good sized PD suite and 14 light anti-ship batteries. She put up a withering
anti-missle fire, and her 14 size 2 anti-ship batteries with a 10 second ROF, put up a much denser missle storm, and most struck their targets.
Individually nothing, but as one 14 missle salvo after another....
Code: [Select]
Vilknarma class Battlecruiser 12000 tons 1197 Crew 3706.88 BP TCS 240 TH 644 EM 450
7666 km/s Armour 1-46 Shields 15-300 Sensors 88/88/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 36
Annual Failure Rate: 1152% IFR: 16% Maintenance Capacity 193 MSP Max Repair 672 MSP
Magazine 704
Magneto-plasma Drive E6.5 (20) Power 92 Efficiency 0.65 Signature 32.2 Armour 0 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres Range 46.1 billion km (69 days at full power)
Delta R300/12.5 Shields (6) Total Fuel Cost 75 Litres per day
Size 1 Missile Launcher (8) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
Size 2 Missile Launcher Mk2 (14) Missile Size 2 Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (1) Range 4.2m km Resolution 1
Missile Fire Control FC28-R105 (50%)mk2 (1) Range 88.2m km Resolution 105
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (100) Speed: 33,300 km/s End: 2.2m Range: 4.3m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 299 / 179 / 89
Size 2 Anti-ship Missile mk2 (302) Speed: 22,400 km/s End: 67m Range: 90m km WH: 2 Size: 2 TH: 149 / 89 / 44
Active Search Sensor S84-R105 (50%)mk2 (1) GPS 8820 Range 88.2m km Resolution 105
Active Search Sensor S448-R1 (50%) (1) GPS 448 Range 4.5m km Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH8-88 (50%)mk2 (1) Sensitivity 88 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 88m km
EM Detection Sensor EM8-88 (50%)mk2 (1) Sensitivity 88 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 88m km
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This was fun for sure, and we succeeded in capturing the system. There is a thermal 10 base on the first planet. Is it possible to
capture it? BTW, Steve, they have been leaving lifepods when destroyed. (Now where did I put those bamboo strips?)
Eric
Post by: Beersatron on April 16, 2009, 11:23:40 PM
Which actually leads me on to my own question for Steve: when PD is set to 4vs1 does that mean that 4 PD missiles will try to target 1 incoming ship killer missile OR that 4 PD missiles will attack 1 salvo or ship killer missiles?
OR, none of the above
Post by: Starkiller on April 17, 2009, 12:30:07 AM
their range. They often managed to take out as much as half the shipkillers with the first two salvos. Of the four BC classes in the battle, only
the Vilknarma BCs came through without a scratch. Though to be honest, I don't know if they were targeted or not, but even if they weren't, it's
thanks to their PD missles that any of the others survived. When the Precursor shipkillers came in, each salvo was in 3 groups of 13 missles, size
5, warhead strength 12. By the time they reach the ships, PD had knocked out about 2/3 to 3/4 of them, the Revenge BCs lasers got from 1-4 more.
Then they hit. If my initial plan had worked, they would never have hit me as often as they did, but I made a REAL boner of a mistake.
I had a scout that snuck in and orbited one of the planets, using just the passives, I kept track of them. I sent the fleet through the warp point REAL
slow, intending to sneak up on them, get within missle range, light up the actives and FIRE. Alas, I had a conditional order set that if contact detected,
turn actives on! :)
I won, but I could have won even better if I had remembered that bloody conditional. I set it that way for warp point defense. Heh. Oh well. ^_-
Greywolf
Post by: Charlie Beeler on April 17, 2009, 09:13:24 AM
You only need 1pt of damage to kill a missile with a missile.
Mount size 1 launchers in groups of 5 with a supporting PD missile fire control. Reason being that 5 is the max assignment vs salvos.
For counter-missiles speed is almost always more important than range. Followed closely by agility. Balance both for optimal intercept chance.
You never seem to have enough magazine space for counter missiles.
Beams are almost always best set for final defense vs area defense. Optimize beam fire control for 100% at 10k km since this is the best range break your going to have.
Beams for PD should always be turret mounted with a speed matching your best fire control speed.
Beam fire control for PD should always be 4x size for speed, your going to incounter missiles that are faster than you can track with standard size fire control.
Actives for detecting incoming missiles should be large enough to see them at least 500k km, farther is better. Research "max tracking time bonus vs missiles" under racial charteristics.
The more beams you add to the turret mount the better.
As long as missile armor is not being used by your opfor use the smallest beam for PD. With the correct capacitor, and supporting powerplant(s), you can easily have PD suites with 5 sec cycles for a minimal mass investment.
Post by: Brian Neumann on April 17, 2009, 11:28:47 AM
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
Some things I've found to be successful for missile defenses.This has changed with 4.0b. missile vs missile now need to take in to account the armor of the attacking missile. If your enemy armors thier missile even a little bit this will have a major impact on your interceptions chance of success. (1 point of armor will meen that a successfull intercept now requires twice as many missiles to succeed.)
You only need 1pt of damage to kill a missile with a missile.
Quote
Mount size 1 launchers in groups of 5 with a supporting PD missile fire control. Reason being that 5 is the max assignment vs salvos.Agree with everything here. I usually use about .01 space points for the missiles fuel.
For counter-missiles speed is almost always more important than range. Followed closely by agility. Balance both for optimal intercept chance.
You never seem to have enough magazine space for counter missiles.
Quote
Beams are almost always best set for final defense vs area defense. Optimize beam fire control for 100% at 10k km since this is the best range break your going to have.I use a couple of different ideas for my point defense. I prefer to use the largest beam weapon that has a 5 second cycle, up to 15cm. This is because the extra space required is fairly small (3 vs 4 hs) and the extra weapons then become a very handy secondary battery vs enemy ships. This is particularily true if I am using mesons for my beam pd as any enemy ship which gets into range is in trouble. The main drawback on this is you have less total pd to work with.
Beams for PD should always be turret mounted with a speed matching your best fire control speed.
Beam fire control for PD should always be 4x size for speed, your going to incounter missiles that are faster than you can track with standard size fire control.
Actives for detecting incoming missiles should be large enough to see them at least 500k km, farther is better. Research "max tracking time bonus vs missiles" under racial charteristics.
The more beams you add to the turret mount the better.
As long as missile armor is not being used by your opfor use the smallest beam for PD. With the correct capacitor, and supporting powerplant(s), you can easily have PD suites with 5 sec cycles for a minimal mass investment.
Early on railguns actually work better than lasers, or mesons for pd even though they do not get to be turret mounted. A 10cm railgun is very short ranged but has the same overall percentage of hits as a turret mounted laser or meson. It can get even better chance if the ship mounting it is faster than the base fire control speed that has been reasearched. The other reason that railguns are better early on is that they only have 2 tracks of reasearch to stay current while the lasers and mesons also require the turret tracking speed to be reasearched.
Example. Base fire control speed is 3000km/s, maximum tracking speed for fire control is 12000. If the ship speed is 4000 and has a maching fire control the railgun has a tracking speed of 4000km/s and gets 4 shots every 5 seconds. This would equal the chance to hit of a turreted laser with a tracking speed of 16000km/s.
I agree with the rest of his statements about beam point defense weapons. The only time I have ever taken the pd off of final defense was when the incomming missiles were very slow in comparison to my ship speed and tracking. If I knew that I would get 3 shots off then it becomes worth it to take a chance on a non-optimal range final shot.
A final note, once I have my fire control up to a long enough range I will often make a x4 speed x.25 range unit for a backup fire control in case my main pd fire control gets hit. While it usually has a crappy chance to hit because of its short range, it only takes up 1hs and is therefore a handy backup.
Brian
Post by: Charlie Beeler on April 17, 2009, 12:28:37 PM
Quote from: "Brian"
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"Some things I've found to be successful for missile defenses.This has changed with 4.0b. missile vs missile now need to take in to account the armor of the attacking missile. If your enemy armors thier missile even a little bit this will have a major impact on your interceptions chance of success. (1 point of armor will meen that a successfull intercept now requires twice as many missiles to succeed.)
You only need 1pt of damage to kill a missile with a missile.
Really? I missed that someplace. Not doubting, I missing things like this regularly and then get bit in the ass.
For beam PD I still prefer the Gauss Cannon. Yes they are mass intensive and missile armor delutes thier effectiveness. But a quad mount with rof of at least 3 gives you 12 100% shots if your using the 6hs version.
In my games I do cheat though. I've modified the tech table for GC size and turret speeds and cost. I've only got the GC through 1hs with that being 100%. Turret speeds are 4x beam fire control speeds and matched the turret cost to the same level as beam fire control.
Post by: Kurt on April 17, 2009, 12:30:38 PM
Quote from: "Starkiller"
Well, I won my fight against the six precursor vessels. I got pounded with long range salvos, while their ECM kept my long range missles to
half their range. I was testing four difference battlecruiser designs to see how they functioned in combat. The result actually surprised me.
All four had point defense suites, if they hadn't, the fleet would have been destroyed before getting into missle range.
The first design is a modified Revenge class BC. In the battle, her PD lasers were of limited use due to a tracking speed much too low
to effectively track Precursor missles. The 20cm lasers never got into range, though they were of some VERY limited use in PD mode.
snip ship designs
This was fun for sure, and we succeeded in capturing the system. There is a thermal 10 base on the first planet. Is it possible to
capture it? BTW, Steve, they have been leaving lifepods when destroyed. (Now where did I put those bamboo strips?)
Eric
Hmmm....I noticed that your ships are generally much faster than mine, but have way lighter passive defenses. My ships tend to either focus on armor or shields, or a combination of both, and in all cases they tend to have more tonnage devoted to them than your designs. It would be interesting to have a battle between my designs and yours. Yours would be able to dictate the range, as they are substantially faster, but if mine can get within range of their weapons I suspect yours would suffer.
You have a very good point about rate of fire and the utility of the smaller missile launchers that can throw larger salvos faster, however...I have found that with larger launchers with longer reload times it can be very useful to launch several salvoes combined as one against the enemy by targeting waypoints short of the enemy fleet and assembling individual salvoes there before sending them against their targets. A five-missile salvo of size eight missiles might be easy to intercept, but a thirty missile salvo composed of those same missiles is going to be devastating. Granted it will take longer to assemble, and in the meantime the other guy is launching his small missiles. Hmmmm....
Kurt
Post by: Cassaralla on April 17, 2009, 02:08:28 PM
- The small launchers did fine if they targeted the escort ships first, otherwise the fast cycling gauss turrets devastated my salvo density on every intercept.
- The large salvo overwhelmed the gauss turrets massively and I ended up with massive overkill. 90 of 500 missiles ended up with no targets.
So, both tactics proved successful but the small launchers cost me a lot more missiles to destroy a fleet. Although the missiles were cheaper I still recovered my stocks faster with the massed salvo tactic.
Then I found a Precursor. Used the massed salvo tactic and wasted over 300 missiles as they apparently had no PD at all . . .
Post by: Starkiller on April 17, 2009, 09:22:15 PM
research on Far Ultraviolet Lasers, so I can match them. I neglected missle research in favour of beam weapons, so Precursor ships have a HUGE advantage
there, and I ignored ECM and ECCM entirely, which might have been a mistake. The only area where they were strangely lacking was PD. Once you got by the
ECM, armour and heavy shielding, no PD that I could see. Still, with all the passive defenses, if they'd had PD as well, they would've been unbeatable.
Kurt, I tend to keep my passive defense light, because so far, I've only met Precursor ships and they are REALLY fast. Difference is, they are fast with
VERY heavy passive defense. I'm not advanced enough yet to have heavy weapons, passive defenses, and speed, so I had to make some choices. To use
heavy weapons would increase my tonnage fast, thus seriously reducing my speed. I would imagine that my high speed assisted in some Precursor missles
missing altogether.
Shields don't take up much room, but armour still does, so I had to skimp on those. Eric
Post by: SteveAlt on April 27, 2009, 07:54:39 AM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
Could you squeeze in another Size 1 missile fire control on the Vilknarma? That way you could set it up so that they control 4 launchers each and then have the PD set to 4vs1?4 to 1 means that the number of missiles directed against one incoming salvo will be four times the number in that salvo. So assuming an incoming salvo of 12, your point defence will keep launching until it has 48 anti-missiles in flight. If you are launching anti-missiles in salvos of 10, for example, the first four salvos will be full and the fifth will be just 8 missiles. If the first of those salvos intercepts the incoming and destroys just one of them you will now have 38 missiles in flight vs an incoming salvo of 11. The next anti-missile launch will therefore be 6 missiles so you have 44 in flight vs 11.
Which actually leads me on to my own question for Steve: when PD is set to 4vs1 does that mean that 4 PD missiles will try to target 1 incoming ship killer missile OR that 4 PD missiles will attack 1 salvo or ship killer missiles?
OR, none of the above
Steve