Post by: Steve Walmsley on August 01, 2009, 06:28:12 PM
I have taken an entirely new approach to Diplomacy, basing it on the mechanics of Aurora rather than a set of abstract treaty states with no significant in-game effects. The first major change is that there is no longer a single relationship between two Empires. Each Empire has its own opinion of each alien race and two Empires may have different opinions of each other. You can see your own Empire's view of other Empires but their view of you can only be determined by the diplomatic actions that they take. Their underlying opinion is not revealed. In addition, communication attempts take place for each race involved and a situation could result where Empire A can understand the language of Empire B but not vice versa. Sort of like when you go to Paris and the waiters can speak English but refuse to do so if you don't speak French. This has important implications for interrogating prisoners and for espionage.
The view of each Empire toward another is determined by the Political Modifier. This is a number which will change over time based on different events and situations. It will also affect the treaties that can be set up, either automatically by NPRs or manually by players. Empires will determine by themselves what treaties to grant to other Empires and each is handled on a unilateral basis. Thus Empire A can grant Trade Access (for example) to Empire B without that being reciprocated.
The Political Modifier is set initially for each side when first contact takes place. This is set to zero minus a random number between 1 and the Empire's Xenophobia (which is equal to the Xenophobia of the dominant species within that Empire plus any modifier for government type). So although the Political Modifier will start negative on both sides, it could be significantly different for each Empire. The Political Modifier you have for each alien Empire will change over time based on the criteria described below. Unless specifically listed as instant, all modifiers are added or deducted over the course of one year, with small increments being added/deducted during each 5-day increment.
Positive Modifiers
The rating of a diplomatic team assigned to you by the alien Empire will be added over the course of one year. So if the alien team rating was 120 then the political modifier you have for that Empire would increase by 120 every year with small increments being added during each 5-day increment. NPRs will create their own diplomatic teams to influence your perception of their Empire. An NPR's view of you will be influenced by the diplomatic team you assign to that NPR.
Instant changes ranging from 1 to 10 for positive communication efforts
Instant 10 for establishing communications
100 per year if the alien race has granted trade access
100 per year if the alien race is sharing geological survey data
100 per year if the alien race is sharing gravitational survey data
200 per year if the alien race is sharing research information
100 per year if the alien race views you as Friendly
200 per year if the alien race views you as Allied
Negative Modifiers
The Xenophobia of your Empire will be deducted over the course of one year. So if your Xenophobia was 50 then the political modifier for each alien race would decrease by 50 every year with small increments being deducted during each 5-day increment. If an NPR had a xenophobia of 60 then the political modifier for each known race, including the player race, would decrease by 60 every year
-100 per year if communication not established.
Instant deductions equal to any damage inflicted to your ships or PDCs by the alien race. This is doubled for any internal damage
Instant deductions equal to 200% of any planetary bombardment damage
During the 5-day increment, NPRs will deduct points for any alien ships they detect on active sensors in systems in which they have a population. The deduction is equal to 10% of contact size. So a 5000 ton ship (size 100) would cause an instant 10 point deduction. For the purposes of this rule, they will ignore freighters if a trade treaty is in effect and they will ignore ships from Empires they class as Friendly or Allied.
If an Empire is attacked, all treaties with the attacking race will be cancelled and if the the political modifier is greater than -150, it is reduced to that amount.
Treaties
The Political Modifier Level required for different treaties is as follows:
Neutral Military Status: -100
Friendly Military Status (Jump ships can escort the alien Empire's ships): 800
Allied Military Status: (Ships will defend the ally's ships against missile attack): 4000
Trade Access: 200
Share Geological Survey Data: 800
Share Gravitational Survey Data: 2400
Share Research Data: 6000
Treaties are one-way only so if an NPR grants you trade access you have access to the NPR populations but they will only have access to yours if you grant them trade access. The same applies to geo treaties, grav treaties, etc.. NPRs will automatically grant the various treaties when the political modifier reaches the appropriate level. Player races have the option of granting the treaty status for NPRs. While it might appear at first to be a good idea to let NPRs grant you acess and not return the favour, there are several advantages to granting various treaties,
If you grant trade access, NPRs will move trade goods within your Empire, between your Empire and the NPR populations and between your Empire and others with whom the NPR has a treaty. This can include moving infrastructure to your colonies that is produced by alien populations. You will gain export taxes for goods moved from your populations and you may get some free infrastructure. Granting grav or geo treaties has a couple of benefits. Primarily, it improves your relations, which can lead to the NPR declaring you friendly or allied, or even sharing its research knowledge. Secondly, if you don't want an NPR poking around in your systems, let them have the geo knowledge than they have no reason to send in survey ships. The research treaty is a easy way to get new knowledge to the a friendly/allied NPR so it can upgrade its ships and again will improve relations to the point where the NPR can reciprocate - if hasn't already done so.
To facilitate the changes, the existing Diplomacy window has been removed and a new tab has been added to the Tactical Intelligence window, which is now the Intelligence and Foreign Relations Window. A screenshot is shown below
[attachment=0:bdr81179]Aliens.GIF[/attachment:bdr81179]
Steve
Post by: sloanjh on August 01, 2009, 09:36:09 PM
John
Post by: Paul M on August 03, 2009, 03:08:04 AM
Post by: Randy on August 04, 2009, 03:51:10 PM
eg. IF the same ship is in a system with alien pop and has sensors active for 2 build cycles, does the modifier get applied twice?
What happens if the build cycle is not 5 days (eg 1 day or 10 days) - how is the instant modifer affected?
Post by: Steve Walmsley on August 04, 2009, 04:46:23 PM
Quote from: "Randy"
Are there any limits on the frequency of the instant modifiers?Yes, it would be applied twice. So it's not a good idea to hang around in populated alien systems unless you have a friendly relationship or the ship is a freighter and a trade treaty is in force.
eg. IF the same ship is in a system with alien pop and has sensors active for 2 build cycles, does the modifier get applied twice?
What happens if the build cycle is not 5 days (eg 1 day or 10 days) - how is the instant modifer affected?
The length of the build cycle doesn't matter for the instant modifier in this case. There will be longer and shorter cycles but it will average over time. Besides, with the new sub-pulses it is much more likely that interval will happens after 5 days rather than a longer period.
Steve
Post by: Randy on August 06, 2009, 03:01:14 PM
Post by: Steve Walmsley on August 06, 2009, 03:19:19 PM
Quote from: "Randy"
I guess my big concern is the fact that I prefer the 1 day build cycle - thus it seriously impacts things that a ship will be counted multiple times before it can get out of the situation...Ah! I hadn't considered that. I will change it to be multiplied by the fraction of 5 days instead but I just wrapped up v4.2 so it won't happen until 4.21 or 4.3
Steve
Post by: rdgam on August 07, 2009, 10:07:23 PM
Before as soon you got an EM reading on one of their planets you could try to initiate communications.
Now it seems like you have to use active sensors for them to show up on the diplomacy screen.
Since this generates negative modifiers, I would like to avoid it. (If I am playing peaceful).
Post by: Steve Walmsley on August 08, 2009, 10:18:01 AM
Quote from: "rdgam"
How do you make contact with a new race.Argh - for some reason that is no longer working. I'll sort that out.
Before as soon you got an EM reading on one of their planets you could try to initiate communications.
Now it seems like you have to use active sensors for them to show up on the diplomacy screen.
Since this generates negative modifiers, I would like to avoid it. (If I am playing peaceful).
Btw, use of active sensors is not regarded as hostile by NPRs, only a continued presence in their populated system if you are less than Friendly.
Steve
Post by: Laurence on August 11, 2009, 12:58:18 PM
Post by: Steve Walmsley on August 14, 2009, 12:29:51 PM
Quote from: "Laurence"
Is there a way to set the initial communication status and starting treaties? For setting up a multi-nation Earth scenario.Not at the moment but that would be very useful. All you would really need to set in SM mode would be the Diplomatic Rating as that would open up the various treaties for the player races.
I have added a new button called Change DR that allows the SM to enter the diplomatic rating directly. That updates the window so that different treaties will become available.
Steve
Post by: Father Tim on August 14, 2009, 02:10:56 PM
Post by: Steve Walmsley on August 14, 2009, 02:29:54 PM
Quote from: "Father Tim"
So if you are having a multi-empire start on Earth, and you're less than Friendly with another government, are you going to spiral inevitably into war due to the presence of your ships & PDCs in "their" home system, even though it's your home system as well?Only if the other races are NPRs. Player races don't apply that modifier to the Diplomacy Rating.
Steve
Post by: Laurence on August 15, 2009, 06:54:10 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Only if the other races are NPRs. Player races don't apply that modifier to the Diplomacy Rating.
Steve
Steve, if I make my starting race (a player race) on Earth, then create additional races (China, etc) and give them a government type of something other than "Player Race", will the game run them as NPRs?
Laurence
Post by: Steve Walmsley on August 15, 2009, 10:08:20 PM
Quote from: "Laurence"
If you have the Generate New Empires as NPRs option set then any Empires you create should run as NPRs. Be aware though that as things stand in v4.26, they will eventually treat your race as hostile which could lead to an interesting series of events in the Sol system.Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"Only if the other races are NPRs. Player races don't apply that modifier to the Diplomacy Rating.
Steve
Steve, if I make my starting race (a player race) on Earth, then create additional races (China, etc) and give them a government type of something other than "Player Race", will the game run them as NPRs?
Steve
Post by: sloanjh on August 15, 2009, 11:26:43 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
If you have the Generate New Empires as NPRs option set then any Empires you create should run as NPRs.I'm confused - I thought that the (SM-mode) "Create Empire" button on the system (F9) screen created a player-controlled race, no matter what the government type. I thought the option you mentioned determined whether NPR races generated during system generation were computer controlled (on) or player-controlled (off)
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Be aware though that as things stand in v4.26, they will eventually treat your race as hostile which could lead to an interesting series of events in the Sol system.More confusion.... are you alluding to the thread elsewhere that two races in the same system that start out non-friends will eventually hate each other because each sees the other as a trespasser? Or is there something else in v4.26 that's special? The reason I asked is that my (pretty much defenseless due to conventional start) Terran Federation just found an NPR race and is trying to decide whether to make first contact. If it's guarenteed that they'll eventually end up hostile to me then I think I'll just hide
John
Post by: Steve Walmsley on August 16, 2009, 12:15:02 AM
Quote from: "sloanjh"
If you generate an Empire on the F9 window, it wil be an NPR if you have NPRs switched on and a player race if you have NPRs switched off. You can switch NPRs on/off before generating a race.Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"If you have the Generate New Empires as NPRs option set then any Empires you create should run as NPRs.I'm confused - I thought that the (SM-mode) "Create Empire" button on the system (F9) screen created a player-controlled race, no matter what the government type. I thought the option you mentioned determined whether NPR races generated during system generation were computer controlled (on) or player-controlled (off)
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The best way to handle it is to either make contact outside their home (or any populated) system or make contact and leave quickly. Look at it from their side. If an alien ship is hanging around in their home system, they are going to get nervous about it. If they encounter you away from their home system, they are going to be far less unhappy.QuoteBe aware though that as things stand in v4.26, they will eventually treat your race as hostile which could lead to an interesting series of events in the Sol system.More confusion.... are you alluding to the thread elsewhere that two races in the same system that start out non-friends will eventually hate each other because each sees the other as a trespasser? Or is there something else in v4.26 that's special? The reason I asked is that my (pretty much defenseless due to conventional start) Terran Federation just found an NPR race and is trying to decide whether to make first contact. If it's guarenteed that they'll eventually end up hostile to me then I think I'll just hide
Steve
Post by: sloanjh on August 16, 2009, 12:43:13 AM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
The best way to handle it is to either make contact outside their home (or any populated) system or make contact and leave quickly. Look at it from their side. If an alien ship is hanging around in their home system, they are going to get nervous about it. If they encounter you away from their home system, they are going to be far less unhappy.
From my reading of the initial post, if I'm trying to open communications in their home system and leave my active sensors off they won't get nervous (accumulate negative points) - is that correct? Or will they telepathically know that I've got active sensors on my ship which just happen to be turned off (the wording in the post was a little bit ambiguous)? Or will any non-commercial design upset them (which seems to be what you're saying here)? As I said, the impression I have is that any ship (even if it's a DeathStar
) will not penalize relations as long as its active sensors are turned off.Another thing I'm not clear on: up until about 15 minutes ago, I knew that the aliens existed but they didn't know I did (I'd picked their homeworld up on passives). I'm confused about what the conditions are for initiating contact, whether they've formed an attitude for me yet, and what level of communications a diplomatic team needs in order to be able to affect the relationship....
1) It seems like I should need to "break EMCON" in order to open communications. It seems like the easiest way to do this (in game mechanics) is to require a ship that's communicating to have its transponder on. At present, it seems like I can jump into a system, detect an alien population, jump back out, and still attempt to initiate communications and have diplomatic relations with them without any ships in systems that they occupy. Do you have thoughts on this? At present it seems like this (at least the "initiate" part) needs to be role played, i.e. turn on the transponder of the embassy ship. That still doesn't address the "accrual" issue - is there an easy way to have Aurora define an "in contact" or "out of contact" state between two empires?
2) I guess the above bullet got most of my questions, but specifically, it feels like I should de-assign my diplomatic team whenever I'm not in contact with an empire, so that the diplomatics don't have an effect on aliens that they aren't talking to. Is this correct?
3) Assuming that they haven't detected me, does it hurt me (i.e. let their attitude towards me get more negative) if I wait to open contact? I assume the answer is no, but wanted to double-check....
4) Before opening communications, I snuck quite a ways into their system. It occurs to me that sneaking around without a transponder could be interpreted as a hostile act. Should there be a penalty if aliens detect you leaving the WP without a transponder?
5) As you say, having unknown ships hanging about one's system might make one a little nervous. Have you thought about an "intercept" mission for NPRs, where they send a ship to a neutral or words contact? Once intercepted, if the contact moves any further towards and alien population it should/could be interpreted as a hostile act.
6) If I immediately grant an alien trade access (+100 attitude per year) and then avoid shooting at them or going into their home system, does that mean that their attitude towards me is guarenteed to drift in the positive direction? It seems like it should, since their Xenophobia should subtract off less than 100 per year and there don't seem to be any other modifiers if you leave them alone.
Thanks,
John
Post by: sloanjh on August 16, 2009, 01:23:55 AM
I suspect that what's going on is that they still don't know that I exist. I guess that makes sense if "initiate contact" means passively listen to their "I Love Lucy" reruns in order to figure out their language and culture. Is this correct?
John
Post by: Steve Walmsley on August 16, 2009, 09:14:21 AM
Quote from: "sloanjh"
I can see how my original post might be misinterpreted so I have changed 'with active sensors' to 'on active sensors'. The NPR will get upset with any ship they detect using their own active sensors. In other words, they won't assign any negative modifier if they only pick you up on passives because they won't know to which race that contact belongs. Once you are within their active sensor range and they can identify you, that is why they start applying the negative modifier. Bear in mind that commercial ships will still cause the negative modifier unless you have a trade treaty in place.Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"The best way to handle it is to either make contact outside their home (or any populated) system or make contact and leave quickly. Look at it from their side. If an alien ship is hanging around in their home system, they are going to get nervous about it. If they encounter you away from their home system, they are going to be far less unhappy.
From my reading of the initial post, if I'm trying to open communications in their home system and leave my active sensors off they won't get nervous (accumulate negative points) - is that correct? Or will they telepathically know that I've got active sensors on my ship which just happen to be turned off (the wording in the post was a little bit ambiguous)? Or will any non-commercial design upset them (which seems to be what you're saying here)? As I said, the impression I have is that any ship (even if it's a DeathStar
Quote
Another thing I'm not clear on: up until about 15 minutes ago, I knew that the aliens existed but they didn't know I did (I'd picked their homeworld up on passives). I'm confused about what the conditions are for initiating contact, whether they've formed an attitude for me yet, and what level of communications a diplomatic team needs in order to be able to affect the relationship....Once you know they exist, you can initiate communication and a diplomatic team can affect the relationship once comms are established.
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1) It seems like I should need to "break EMCON" in order to open communications. It seems like the easiest way to do this (in game mechanics) is to require a ship that's communicating to have its transponder on. At present, it seems like I can jump into a system, detect an alien population, jump back out, and still attempt to initiate communications and have diplomatic relations with them without any ships in systems that they occupy. Do you have thoughts on this? At present it seems like this (at least the "initiate" part) needs to be role played, i.e. turn on the transponder of the embassy ship. That still doesn't address the "accrual" issue - is there an easy way to have Aurora define an "in contact" or "out of contact" state between two empires?I used to have this concept but I removed it. It's just too hard to determine within the program when you are in actual contact. It occurred to me that every single 4x game I can think of does not have any restriction of this type of contact so I decided to join the club. One way to rationalise it is that even if you are not in direct contact, you will still be analysing any past communication in order to work out the alien language. Just like modern archaeologists can figure out ancient languages without anyone left alive to speak it. You might even work out the language based on planetary emissions (TV broadcasts, etc.).
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2) I guess the above bullet got most of my questions, but specifically, it feels like I should de-assign my diplomatic team whenever I'm not in contact with an empire, so that the diplomatics don't have an effect on aliens that they aren't talking to. Is this correct?No, the program assumes the diplomatic team is working constantly, just as the alien xeno rating is working constantly. A lot of the diplomatic team's time is probably spent working on strategy rather than in direct communication anyway. I know this abstracts things but it does make it much easier and no different than any other game of this type.
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3) Assuming that they haven't detected me, does it hurt me (i.e. let their attitude towards me get more negative) if I wait to open contact? I assume the answer is no, but wanted to double-check....If they don't know you exist (i.e. active detection of one of your ships or passive detection of one of your pops), they won't even have an attitude towards you.
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4) Before opening communications, I snuck quite a ways into their system. It occurs to me that sneaking around without a transponder could be interpreted as a hostile act. Should there be a penalty if aliens detect you leaving the WP without a transponder?No. If they do find you though, you will receive negative modifiers as long as they keep you within active sensor range if you are in a populated system. The deeper into the system you are, the longer it will take you to get back out if you are detected.
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5) As you say, having unknown ships hanging about one's system might make one a little nervous. Have you thought about an "intercept" mission for NPRs, where they send a ship to a neutral or words contact? Once intercepted, if the contact moves any further towards and alien population it should/could be interpreted as a hostile act.A possibility. I'll give that some thought. The tricky bit will be you realising they have intercepted you and also what happens if you run.
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6) If I immediately grant an alien trade access (+100 attitude per year) and then avoid shooting at them or going into their home system, does that mean that their attitude towards me is guarenteed to drift in the positive direction? It seems like it should, since their Xenophobia should subtract off less than 100 per year and there don't seem to be any other modifiers if you leave them alone.You won't be able to immediately grant trade access. Your attitude toward that race will have to reach +100 before that option becomes available. Your attitude toward them will be determined by the diplomatic team they assign to you and your own xenophobia rating. In other words, how worried about aliens is your race and how good are those aleans at reassuring your government they don't plan to eat you.
Steve
Post by: Steve Walmsley on August 16, 2009, 09:16:51 AM
Quote from: "sloanjh"
Ok....I've established full communications with the NPR I activated, and I didn't turn my transponder on. The "yes" buttons for all of the diplomatic states on my side, however, are all greyed out, and the military "Treaties set by alien race" is "unknown". I suspect that what's going on is that they still don't know that I exist. I guess that makes sense if "initiate contact" means passively listen to their "I Love Lucy" reruns in order to figure out their language and culture. Is this correct?You won't be able to assign treaties to the alien race until your diplomatic rating reaches certain levels. The levels are:
Neutral Military Status: -100
Friendly Military Status (Jump ships can escort the alien Empire's ships): 800
Allied Military Status: (Ships will defend the ally's ships against missile attack): 4000
Trade Access: 200
Share Geological Survey Data: 800
Share Gravitational Survey Data: 2400
Share Research Data: 6000
Steve
Post by: sloanjh on August 16, 2009, 01:53:29 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
I can see how my original post might be misinterpreted so I have changed 'with active sensors' to 'on active sensors'. The NPR will get upset with any ship they detect using their own active sensors. In other words, they won't assign any negative modifier if they only pick you up on passives because they won't know to which race that contact belongs. Once you are within their active sensor range and they can identify you, that is why they start applying the negative modifier. Bear in mind that commercial ships will still cause the negative modifier unless you have a trade treaty in place.Eeep!!!! So my unarmed embassy ship TFNS Come In Peace is pissing them off while it innocently sits there (they sent some gunboats out to intercept it which have it on active) because they suspect that she has a friend on the other side of the warp point - the TFNS Go In Pieces? (You don't need to answer this one - it was mostly rhetorical.)
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Just like modern archaeologists can figure out ancient languages without anyone left alive to speak it. You might even work out the language based on planetary emissions (TV broadcasts, etc.).Got it - so it's the "I Love Lucy" mechanism.
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I think you've already done this - I was asking because of my misunderstanding of the active stuff. What happened after I turned my transponder on was that they sent a squadron of GB out to intercept the contact (my ship), which stopped 10k km with actives on. Since I thought that trying to talk to them was a good thing, I've got my ship just sitting there pissing them off. This is pretty much the behavior I was suggesting, with the caveat that I was thinking that they wouldn't mind me sitting still, but would mind my approaching their HW after intercept.Quote5) As you say, having unknown ships hanging about one's system might make one a little nervous. Have you thought about an "intercept" mission for NPRs, where they send a ship to a neutral or words contact? Once intercepted, if the contact moves any further towards and alien population it should/could be interpreted as a hostile act.A possibility. I'll give that some thought. The tricky bit will be you realising they have intercepted you and also what happens if you run.
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You won't be able to immediately grant trade access. Your attitude toward that race will have to reach +100 before that option becomes available. Your attitude toward them will be determined by the diplomatic team they assign to you and your own xenophobia rating. In other words, how worried about aliens is your race and how good are those aleans at reassuring your government they don't plan to eat you.
Aaaaah - that's the trigger.... I was thinking that once full comms are established, I was free to choose my empire's posture. Is this the same threshold as for them to open trade with me, or is it 50% off (to represent me being able to somewhat go against public opinion)?
So let me see if I've got an optimal 1st contact protocol right (if you want to establish peaceful relations) - that should help clear up any more misunderstandings of the process:
0) Jump into a system and discover an alien population.
1) If they've got you acquired (and aren't shooting yet, which they presumably never will be since the initial rating will not have more than 100 (max Xenophobia) subtracted off) jump back out immediately.
2) (Role Playing) hit the "Initiate contact" button and remain in the system (stealthed) until full contact is established. This represents listening to their broadcasts etc. I realize that jumping out right away will have the same effect - that's why I called it role playing :-) Do you still have the "communication modes" stuff associated with each race (i.e. verbal, visual, smell, etc) that you had a while back - you could make a little wheel where modes close to each other were easy and modes diametrically opposite were almost impossible.
John
Post by: Laurence on August 17, 2009, 10:59:17 AM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Laurence"If you have the Generate New Empires as NPRs option set then any Empires you create should run as NPRs. Be aware though that as things stand in v4.26, they will eventually treat your race as hostile which could lead to an interesting series of events in the Sol system.Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"Only if the other races are NPRs. Player races don't apply that modifier to the Diplomacy Rating.
Steve
Steve, if I make my starting race (a player race) on Earth, then create additional races (China, etc) and give them a government type of something other than "Player Race", will the game run them as NPRs?
Steve
Understood. And I wasn't planning on being nice to them in the long run anyway, I'll give it a try.
Post by: SteveAlt on August 17, 2009, 04:46:35 PM
Quote from: "Laurence"
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"If you have the Generate New Empires as NPRs option set then any Empires you create should run as NPRs. Be aware though that as things stand in v4.26, they will eventually treat your race as hostile which could lead to an interesting series of events in the Sol system.Understood. And I wasn't planning on being nice to them in the long run anyway, I'll give it a try. :)
Steve
Post by: alanwebber on August 18, 2009, 02:50:47 AM
How about a diplomatic bonus if you rescue survivors from lifepods and return them to a local colony?
Alan
Post by: Beersatron on September 07, 2009, 11:35:31 PM
There is another race I have encountered and they have me set to -1000 so I am going to bust a cap in their collective asses instead of trying to play the diplomacy game - they shot first anyways!! The thing is, I did hit 'initiate communication' and now after every update I get a message saying that the other race refuses to communicate. Unfortunately, I can not 'stop communication'?
Post by: Beersatron on September 12, 2009, 11:41:56 PM
Post by: schroeam on September 13, 2009, 09:54:02 AM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
I have a diplo rating of 230 with one of the NPRs and have set them to allow Trade, but they have not reciprocated. I thought that they would set me as a trading partner automatically? Bug, or am I missing something else?The diplomatic scene is much more complicated than that. The diplomatic rating you see is your population's view of the NPR, but the NPR has a completely different view of you, based on their base species characteristics. You might find another NPR that will be more inclined to grant you trade access before you are allowed to reciprocate.
Adam.
Post by: Beersatron on September 13, 2009, 01:11:51 PM
Quote from: "adradjool"
Quote from: "Beersatron"I have a diplo rating of 230 with one of the NPRs and have set them to allow Trade, but they have not reciprocated. I thought that they would set me as a trading partner automatically? Bug, or am I missing something else?The diplomatic scene is much more complicated than that. The diplomatic rating you see is your population's view of the NPR, but the NPR has a completely different view of you, based on their base species characteristics. You might find another NPR that will be more inclined to grant you trade access before you are allowed to reciprocate.
Adam.
Ah, I had thought that the diplo rating on that screen was a combination of mine and their views towards one another. Cheers
Post by: Beersatron on September 14, 2009, 11:55:49 PM
1. I don't suppose there is somewhere that I can see what another race thinks of me?
2. From this (http://aurora.pentarch.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1312&p=10909&hilit=minefield#p10865) thread on sensors and mines, is the targeting smart enough to NOT fire on somebody I have set to Neutral or Allow Trading?
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 15, 2009, 09:06:05 AM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
Two questions:Just as in real life, you can only determine that from their actions. If they give you trade access for example (or remove it), that will give you an indication of how they regard you.
1. I don't suppose there is somewhere that I can see what another race thinks of me?
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2. From this (http://aurora.pentarch.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1312&p=10909&hilit=minefield#p10865) thread on sensors and mines, is the targeting smart enough to NOT fire on somebody I have set to Neutral or Allow Trading?Missiles aren't too bright :). Even in real life, friendly mines will kill you just as efficiently as hostile ones.
Steve
Post by: Beersatron on October 12, 2009, 07:35:01 PM
I guess they have settled some civilians in the system - even though I got there way before them and have a very obvious colony with a division of destroyers as protection.
Is there any way of 'telling' a neutral power that you own or have a presence in a system and that there shouldn't be any negative effect? It is kind of annoying that I get a negative effect for a colony that has been active for years before they arrived.
Post by: Beersatron on October 12, 2009, 07:41:15 PM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
I just managed to finally get an NPR to give me a trade agreement but then a couple of 5 day increments later they arrived over one of my worlds with ships using active search sensors and my standing with them dropped 60points (I looked in the DB).
I guess they have settled some civilians in the system - even though I got there way before them and have a very obvious colony with a division of destroyers as protection.
Is there any way of 'telling' a neutral power that you own or have a presence in a system and that there shouldn't be any negative effect? It is kind of annoying that I get a negative effect for a colony that has been active for years before they arrived.
I just did another 1 day increment and lost another 60 points, so in a matter of days I went from friendly trading to 'about to get shot at'
I have a 60k ton gate builder and 3 10k ton destroyers in orbit with another 15 60k ton terraformers about to make orbit of my colony.
Am not sure it makes sense to go to war over something like this.
Post by: sloanjh on October 12, 2009, 10:05:08 PM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
Is there any way of 'telling' a neutral power that you own or have a presence in a system and that there shouldn't be any negative effect? It is kind of annoying that I get a negative effect for a colony that has been active for years before they arrived.
I've run into the same issue. My suggestion would be having one or more new race attributes (or maybe some function of existing ones). The word that springs to mind is "stubborness", i.e. how likely the NPR is to change a plan to colonize another system if it would infringe on another race. Another possible attribute is how likely an NPR is to want to colonize a particular system.
Here are some suggestions for implementation:
1) Make creating a colony in another race's system a hostile act below a certain treaty status. I guess variations on this could be to vary the size of colony allowed with closeness of treaty status.
2) Have the NPR AI assume that any system in which it encounters an alien vessel or bouy (without observing the alien transit into the system, or without already having a colony in the system) is claimed by aliens. The only way to clear the flag would be to survey all the system bodies, i.e. ensure that there's no alien colony. Note that this would make picketing of warp points (with active sensors) a valuable thing to do at NPR boundaries - it would indicate a claimed system.
3) Before doing something that will worsen status with an alien race, an NPR would do a check against some attribute of "do I want to end up at war with these guys". The state of the check should be saved - otherwise it would eventually creep over into "do it". This would (sometimes) prevent the situation I ran into, where the aliens just went dancing into my home system with a war fleet.
John
Post by: Steve Walmsley on October 13, 2009, 09:37:57 AM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
One way to look at this is that many wars have started because two nations both wanted to colonise the same real estate. However, I do agree there needs to be a little more intelligence in this area. I can think of two ways to handle it. One is your suggestion above that races can inform each other which systems they are claiming. You would then judge whether to intrude on the territory of another race and NPRs would have a chance to ignore the warning based on their racial characteristics. The system map could show any claims from races with which you have established communication.Quote from: "Beersatron"I just managed to finally get an NPR to give me a trade agreement but then a couple of 5 day increments later they arrived over one of my worlds with ships using active search sensors and my standing with them dropped 60points (I looked in the DB).
I guess they have settled some civilians in the system - even though I got there way before them and have a very obvious colony with a division of destroyers as protection.
Is there any way of 'telling' a neutral power that you own or have a presence in a system and that there shouldn't be any negative effect? It is kind of annoying that I get a negative effect for a colony that has been active for years before they arrived.
I just did another 1 day increment and lost another 60 points, so in a matter of days I went from friendly trading to 'about to get shot at'
I have a 60k ton gate builder and 3 10k ton destroyers in orbit with another 15 60k ton terraformers about to make orbit of my colony.
Am not sure it makes sense to go to war over something like this.
The second option is for NPRs not to create a colony in a system that has an established colony of another race. For the purposes of the rule, I think an established colony would be a ten million pop. If an NPR creates a colony when you have a smaller colony than that, you can decide whether to fight for the system or pull out. How do those options sound?
Steve
Post by: Beersatron on October 13, 2009, 11:27:17 AM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Beersatron"Quote from: "Beersatron"I just managed to finally get an NPR to give me a trade agreement but then a couple of 5 day increments later they arrived over one of my worlds with ships using active search sensors and my standing with them dropped 60points (I looked in the DB).
I guess they have settled some civilians in the system - even though I got there way before them and have a very obvious colony with a division of destroyers as protection.
Is there any way of 'telling' a neutral power that you own or have a presence in a system and that there shouldn't be any negative effect? It is kind of annoying that I get a negative effect for a colony that has been active for years before they arrived.
I just did another 1 day increment and lost another 60 points, so in a matter of days I went from friendly trading to 'about to get shot at' ;)
I have found that it takes quite a long time to get a new colony up to 10million people.
Say you have a trade agreement with an NPR and they are using the nearest population to them which also has the above mentioned commercial ships and then a survey or patrol fleet from the NPR comes along as an escort. They are going to detect the non-freighters and also my own escorts which is within reason.
Does an NPR 'know' if a ship is commercial or not? So you can add all commercial ships to the white-list or allowed sensor contacts?
What about being able to classify a warship as a patrol/escort vessel and these ships are also added to the white-list? You would then need a house-rule were by you don't make a massive 20k ton dreadnought and classify it as one just to slip it into a first-strike position though!
I hope I am making sense, am just typing as I think since I am at work
Post by: alanwebber on October 14, 2009, 04:03:39 AM
How does the survey data exchange occur - automatically or via SM intervention.
Alan
Post by: Paul M on October 14, 2009, 07:31:10 AM
A colony should probably be any population >100K because 10 million is not a colony but a nearly developed world in terms of the game. Also you should add in what you feel defines an exploited system since one with several mass drivers and a bunch of automatic mines would also be considered a "colony" system even if there was not a single person there.
I would also suggest that only ships classifiable as military for maintenance purposes count in the penelty to relations. This is far more reasonable as purely civilian shipping isn't a threat but even a small warship can be a danger, or the equivelent in survey-scout-military lift.
To enable proper negotiations it might be worth developing an forumla that gives a basic number on the value of that system to the NPR. This would allow for weighted response.
Post by: Steve Walmsley on October 16, 2009, 04:17:32 AM
Quote from: "alanwebber"
SteveAutomatically. If one of your allies surveys a system body or a survey location in a system you know about, you get credited with the survey data immediately. If any minerals are found you receive a notification. Also, if you are surveying in the same system as one of your allies, your ships will work together with those of your allies to make sure you don't both survey the same locations.
How does the survey data exchange occur - automatically or via SM intervention.
Steve
Post by: Beersatron on December 08, 2009, 09:25:00 PM
So I went into the DB and gradually stepped up my relationship to the first NPR I came across. Setting the modifier points to just 1 below the next level and let the game do the level-up.
I inflated it so I got Trade and then Geo and then Grav and stopped there. The NPRs are now green on the map when in Active Sensor range but red on thermal sensors - which I guess if ok since they probably don't have transponders on.
Two things:
1. I was wondering, could there be a way to distinguish a race's ships by their thermal signature? It takes a while for your sensors to calibrate and refine the signature down but once it does that signature is stored in the AlienRace table and then you could maybe color the thermal contacts according to that instead of having them always red? They are plodding about Sol and I can see their thermal signatures away out passed the asteroid belt.
2. I set up a mine field around the JP that they use, just in case they run into another NPR and it follows them to Sol. The mine has active sensors and 3 sub munitions.
Code: [Select]
Buoy Size: 10 MSP (0.5 HS) Armour: 0
Reactor Endurance: 24 months
Active Sensor Strength: 0.8 Resolution: 120 Maximum Range: 960,000 km
Cost Per Buoy: 11.615
Second Stage: Mallet Sub Minition x3
Second Stage Separation Range: 150,000 km
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 2 MSP (0.1 HS) Warhead: 2 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 11
Speed: 38400 km/s Endurance: 0 minutes Range: 1.1m km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.2 Resolution: 60 Maximum Range: 120,000 km
Cost Per Missile: 2.005
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 422.4% 3k km/s 132% 5k km/s 84.5% 10k km/s 42.2%
I actually set the mines up a bit too far out and they only barely overlap around the JP.
The friendly NPR jumped into Sol and was green on sensors, they start moving towards center of system and I am holding my breathe - bam! All the mines release their sub munitions. I think you mentioned before that this would probably happen, but I set this up on purpose just so I could see.
A few things on mines:
- if I am using active sensors then surely it shouldn't fire on greens? Not sure how you would do it for EM and TH since they are passive and quite rightly would find it hard to distinguish between friend and foe.
- is it possible to set an option that would stop a mine field from firing on neutrals? Say I have expanded beyond my feasible economical and military reach and want to settle in for a while to feast on my current holdings. But, I want to ensure that my approaches are secure except that I do not have the resources on hand to deploy mobile pickets so I go with mine fields. Now, I do not want to start an interstellar incident so I will deploy the mines and set them to attack only known enemies and to ignore neutrals and friendlies.
- my designs above may not be balanced but I noticed the following happen when my mines went off: the separation range is set to 150k km and the NPR only came within that range of 3 of the mines yet all the mines around the JP released their sub munitions. Then what happened was that only those sub munitions from the 3 mines within range actually attacked. The others lost target and didn't even move 1km - then self destructed. Is that by design? Are they using other sensors on purpose?
- is there a way to self-destruct a mine? I can be a neat freak sometimes and it could be bad for the civies if a mine gets a short and goes off :wink:
Post by: Steve Walmsley on December 08, 2009, 10:59:25 PM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
I actually set the mines up a bit too far out and they only barely overlap around the JP.At the moment mines fire on anything that isn't one of your ships. The reason for this is that alliances can change and there is no way for the mines to know who is your friend at the time they get activated, compared to the time they were laid. I don't think its realistic for all mines to be aware of the current diplmatic situation but I have an alternative suggestion. How about a window that allows you to specify the allowable targets for mines. This could be as simple as "Any foreign ship", or as complex as "Arachnid Ships between 5000 and 10,000 tons", "Thermal Signatures greater than 1000", or even a specified range of known alien classes. Perhaps even a command to ignore the first few targets or wait a certain time before activating. I think for modern captor mines the software can be set for targets within certain ranges so this would allow you to setup something similar. When you lay a mine, it would adopt whatever rules were set for your mines at that point in time. You wouldn't be able to change the targeting instruction for a mine once laid but it would still add a lot more flexibility. I think the window would have to contain a list of deployed mines so you could keep track. For those players who aren't interested in this level of detail, the default would remain "All Alien Ships"
The friendly NPR jumped into Sol and was green on sensors, they start moving towards center of system and I am holding my breathe - bam! All the mines release their sub munitions. I think you mentioned before that this would probably happen, but I set this up on purpose just so I could see.
A few things on mines:
- if I am using active sensors then surely it shouldn't fire on greens? Not sure how you would do it for EM and TH since they are passive and quite rightly would find it hard to distinguish between friend and foe.
- is it possible to set an option that would stop a mine field from firing on neutrals? Say I have expanded beyond my feasible economical and military reach and want to settle in for a while to feast on my current holdings. But, I want to ensure that my approaches are secure except that I do not have the resources on hand to deploy mobile pickets so I go with mine fields. Now, I do not want to start an interstellar incident so I will deploy the mines and set them to attack only known enemies and to ignore neutrals and friendlies.
Quote
- my designs above may not be balanced but I noticed the following happen when my mines went off: the separation range is set to 150k km and the NPR only came within that range of 3 of the mines yet all the mines around the JP released their sub munitions. Then what happened was that only those sub munitions from the 3 mines within range actually attacked. The others lost target and didn't even move 1km - then self destructed. Is that by design? Are they using other sensors on purpose?No, that sounds like a bug I thought I had fixed. I'll look at it again.
Quote
- is there a way to self-destruct a mine? I can be a neat freak sometimes and it could be bad for the civies if a mine gets a short and goes off :)
Steve
Post by: Beersatron on December 08, 2009, 11:57:33 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Beersatron"I actually set the mines up a bit too far out and they only barely overlap around the JP.At the moment mines fire on anything that isn't one of your ships. The reason for this is that alliances can change and there is no way for the mines to know who is your friend at the time they get activated, compared to the time they were laid. I don't think its realistic for all mines to be aware of the current diplmatic situation but I have an alternative suggestion. How about a window that allows you to specify the allowable targets for mines. This could be as simple as "Any foreign ship", or as complex as "Arachnid Ships between 5000 and 10,000 tons", "Thermal Signatures greater than 1000", or even a specified range of known alien classes. Perhaps even a command to ignore the first few targets or wait a certain time before activating. I think for modern captor mines the software can be set for targets within certain ranges so this would allow you to setup something similar. When you lay a mine, it would adopt whatever rules were set for your mines at that point in time. You wouldn't be able to change the targeting instruction for a mine once laid but it would still add a lot more flexibility. I think the window would have to contain a list of deployed mines so you could keep track. For those players who aren't interested in this level of detail, the default would remain "All Alien Ships"
The friendly NPR jumped into Sol and was green on sensors, they start moving towards center of system and I am holding my breathe - bam! All the mines release their sub munitions. I think you mentioned before that this would probably happen, but I set this up on purpose just so I could see.
A few things on mines:
- if I am using active sensors then surely it shouldn't fire on greens? Not sure how you would do it for EM and TH since they are passive and quite rightly would find it hard to distinguish between friend and foe.
- is it possible to set an option that would stop a mine field from firing on neutrals? Say I have expanded beyond my feasible economical and military reach and want to settle in for a while to feast on my current holdings. But, I want to ensure that my approaches are secure except that I do not have the resources on hand to deploy mobile pickets so I go with mine fields. Now, I do not want to start an interstellar incident so I will deploy the mines and set them to attack only known enemies and to ignore neutrals and friendlies.Quote- my designs above may not be balanced but I noticed the following happen when my mines went off: the separation range is set to 150k km and the NPR only came within that range of 3 of the mines yet all the mines around the JP released their sub munitions. Then what happened was that only those sub munitions from the 3 mines within range actually attacked. The others lost target and didn't even move 1km - then self destructed. Is that by design? Are they using other sensors on purpose?No, that sounds like a bug I thought I had fixed. I'll look at it again.Quote- is there a way to self-destruct a mine? I can be a neat freak sometimes and it could be bad for the civies if a mine gets a short and goes off :)
Steve
The level of detail on mine control is actually more than I hoped for :oops:
Post by: Steve Walmsley on December 09, 2009, 12:13:52 AM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
The level of detail on mine control is actually more than I hoped for :oops:It will probably be post-Xmas before anything like this was introduced. I am trying to avoid DB changes at the moment so I can make sure that v4.7+ is as stable as I can make it before I change anything significant. I have a growing list of things that I would like to do once I start making DB changes again and this will be on that list. Besides I just ordered a new digital piano so I will no doubt be totally distracted by that when it arrives in a week or so
Steve
Post by: Beersatron on December 09, 2009, 12:19:59 AM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Beersatron"The level of detail on mine control is actually more than I hoped for :oops:It will probably be post-Xmas before anything like this was introduced. I am trying to avoid DB changes at the moment so I can make sure that v4.7+ is as stable as I can make it before I change anything significant. I have a growing list of things that I would like to do once I start making DB changes again and this will be on that list. Besides I just ordered a new digital piano so I will no doubt be totally distracted by that when it arrives in a week or so
Steve
That's fine with me, I'm thinking of changing my WP defense from mine field to OWP now.
Did you ever give any thought to creating the equivalent of the primary buoy in Starfire? Buoy with a laser instead of missile, heavily increased cycle time and possibly have it 'degrade' after every shot so it doesn't last forever?
Post by: Steve Walmsley on December 09, 2009, 01:09:49 AM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
That's fine with me, I'm thinking of changing my WP defense from mine field to OWP now.Yes I have considered it. It is very possible within the physics of the game so I will look at that when I look at mines for the next DB release.
Did you ever give any thought to creating the equivalent of the primary buoy in Starfire? Buoy with a laser instead of missile, heavily increased cycle time and possibly have it 'degrade' after every shot so it doesn't last forever?
Steve
Post by: Steve Walmsley on December 09, 2009, 03:01:34 AM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
- my designs above may not be balanced but I noticed the following happen when my mines went off: the separation range is set to 150k km and the NPR only came within that range of 3 of the mines yet all the mines around the JP released their sub munitions. Then what happened was that only those sub munitions from the 3 mines within range actually attacked. The others lost target and didn't even move 1km - then self destructed. Is that by design? Are they using other sensors on purpose?I've set this up to test and it is working as it should. Only those mines that can detect the ship by themselves are firing. What version was it when this happened because I think I have fixed a bug along these lines some time after v4.7
Steve
Post by: Beersatron on December 09, 2009, 03:19:11 AM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Beersatron"- my designs above may not be balanced but I noticed the following happen when my mines went off: the separation range is set to 150k km and the NPR only came within that range of 3 of the mines yet all the mines around the JP released their sub munitions. Then what happened was that only those sub munitions from the 3 mines within range actually attacked. The others lost target and didn't even move 1km - then self destructed. Is that by design? Are they using other sensors on purpose?I've set this up to test and it is working as it should. Only those mines that can detect the ship by themselves are firing. What version was it when this happened because I think I have fixed a bug along these lines some time after v4.7
Steve
v4.76
These are the mines I mentioned before, were I had to go in and manually enter the sensor resolution and range. It may be best to ignore this for now and then I will test it again if I get around to redesigning the mines with new tech.
Post by: rmcrowe on December 09, 2009, 05:04:38 PM
robert
Post by: Another on February 23, 2010, 05:50:10 AM
I know that bit about active sensors and "initiate communication" button but what happens after that?
My current Human race has a translation skill at -24. Am I doomed to no diplomacy at all?
Are race characteristics like Diplomacy, Militancy,..., Trading even used in current version of Aurora?
Even forum search could not provide me details that are probably obvious to old players. This kind of info should probably be incorporated into the wiki; not just a link to this thread from a yet some more links section.
Post by: Hawkeye on February 23, 2010, 10:01:24 AM
Quote from: "Another"
Could you clarify how establishing communications is processed?
I know that bit about active sensors and "initiate communication" button but what happens after that?
My current Human race has a translation skill at -24. Am I doomed to no diplomacy at all?
Are race characteristics like Diplomacy, Militancy,..., Trading even used in current version of Aurora?
Even forum search could not provide me details that are probably obvious to old players. This kind of info should probably be incorporated into the wiki; not just a link to this thread from a yet some more links section.
First, I don´t know of all of them, but I´ll share what I know (or belive) to be true ;)
Post by: Mor on January 14, 2016, 04:26:50 PM
Post by: MarcAFK on January 14, 2016, 05:46:17 PM
Post by: Mor on January 14, 2016, 05:59:39 PM
Post by: Prince of Space on January 15, 2016, 02:54:10 PM
Post by: MarcAFK on January 16, 2016, 12:37:20 AM
I have officers in unassigned diplomacy teams increase their skill all the time, so I think that just being on a diplomacy is enough to potentially cause an officer to spontaneously gain experience. Maybe they have a debate club or a model UN?A political role play minecraft server perhaps?