Post by: Beersatron on January 20, 2010, 09:26:04 AM
Therefore, it will contain spoilers so do not read on if you would rather be surprised (possible even pleasantly) by NPR actions whilst playing.
Post by: Beersatron on January 20, 2010, 09:37:50 AM
I sent in the best of the best, 1st Fleet - CruRon 1, and took out the two GBs sustaining some damage in the process due to resolution sizes and what not. As I was moving further in from the JP I picked up larger contacts so decided to turn tail and get some more ammo before returning.
But, and this is the reason for the post, I decided to sit on the JP watching the contacts come towards me. When they stopped moving I presumed they were firing missiles so I stayed for another 30mins and then jumped out. I then waited 2 days and jumped back in, repeating the tactic of sitting and waiting for the NPR to launch missiles - thus wasting them.
These are precursors so on the first instance they probably did not know that the JP was there until they saw my use it. On the second instance they probably would know. So, what I was thinking is: can you give an NPR the decision to hold fire if a contact is within range of a JP or LP so they do not waste missiles?
The continue my story, I got cocky and chased the NPR in system. My resolution was just shy of locking them up though, so they were lobbing missiles at me whilst I couldn't respond. I ran out of AMMs and lost all 4 light cruisers (half of my military at the time!). They ran out of missiles too, but there stockpile must have ran dry also and they rammed the 4th light cruiser to death just as I thought it would escape.[/spoiler:gbo2vwgd]
Post by: Hawkeye on January 20, 2010, 12:34:00 PM
Look at this screenshot. The two hostiles in the center are a 22.850t missile armed BC (magazins empty) and a 7.650t DE.
[attachment=0:1gugi9ne]encirclement.jpg[/attachment:1gugi9ne]
They could outran any ship I fielded, and kept running away from my battlefleet after emptying their magazins (4 other DDs got destroyed in the previous battle)
Now, I had chased those two from between the asteroid belt and Jupiter to beyond Pluto and the NPRs kept running away, up to the point my fleetscout shut his active sensor down. Immediately they stoped (I take it, they couldn´t see any of my ships anymore) and just sat there.
This allowed me to split up my fleet, encircle and finaly crush them.
I saw something similar, when a few NPR ships came through a jumppoint, saw my picket 10 mkm out and started to close. As soon as the picket shut down the active sensor, they lost sight of him and stoped. I had expected they would at least move to the last point of contact, which, actualy, would have let them see my picked again (at 1.000t, it was too small for their actives, but they would have closed enough to see him, even if I moved him away at full speed)
So, what I wanted to say. The NPRs should either go further looking for a lost contact, especially when they are aware that my ships are slower (sometimes a lot slower) than theirs, or retreat to safety, but not just sit there until, after a day and a half, I have finished my preparations to destroy them :)
Edited for typo
Post by: waresky on January 21, 2010, 01:22:11 PM
Code: [Select]
Queen class Star Swarm 60000 tons 3829 Crew 17241 BP TCS 1200 TH 1200 EM 18000
1000 km/s JR 3-50 Armour 11-136 Shields 600-300 Sensors 2000/2000/0/0 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 136
Annual Failure Rate: 12000% IFR: 166.7% Maintenance Capacity 0 MSP Max Repair 5625 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 16000 tons
J60000(3-50) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 60000 tons Distance 50k km Squadron Size 3
Magneto-plasma Drive E7 (15) Power 80 Fuel Use 70% Signature 80 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres Range 10.7 billion km (124 days at full power)
Epsilon R300/21 Shields (200) Total Fuel Cost 4,200 Litres per day
Quad R6/C3 Meson Cannon Turret (8x4) Range 60,000km TS: 20000 km/s Power 12-12 RM 6 ROF 5 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 40-20000 (3) Max Range: 80,000 km TS: 20000 km/s 88 75 62 50 38 25 12 0 0 0
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (32) Total Power Output 96 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Active Search Sensor S336-R100 (1) GPS 33600 Range 336.0m km Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor S28-R1 (1) GPS 28 Range 280k km Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH50-2000 (1) Sensitivity 2000 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 2000m km
EM Detection Sensor EM50-2000 (1) Sensitivity 2000 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 2000m km
ECCM-3 (1) ECM 30
This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes
This Carrier come in "clear" design when am lucky retrieve some Alien's poD and succesful interrogation.
2 times ive been encounter this curious design.
And in all 2 times am return winner,because this race lack on missile attack AND decent defence.
20 Gunboat 800-tons are loaded in Carrier hangar.Launched as well and in "right time" i see,STeve's code run as well.
BUT this ships LACK totally in maintenance spare parts.Bug?error?mistake?
Show ANNUAL FAILURE..absurd.hope steve check this.
Dnt know.
Post by: welchbloke on January 21, 2010, 02:18:23 PM
Quote from: "waresky"
That is a mean looking ship. Should be able to pick it apart with enough missiles (assuming all of the GBs have been fried). Running into one of these would stir up a hornet's nest (quite literally). I guess that was Steve's intension. I wonder what he's got up his sleeve nextCode: [Select]Queen class Star Swarm 60000 tons 3829 Crew 17241 BP TCS 1200 TH 1200 EM 18000
1000 km/s JR 3-50 Armour 11-136 Shields 600-300 Sensors 2000/2000/0/0 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 136
Annual Failure Rate: 12000% IFR: 166.7% Maintenance Capacity 0 MSP Max Repair 5625 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 16000 tons
J60000(3-50) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 60000 tons Distance 50k km Squadron Size 3
Magneto-plasma Drive E7 (15) Power 80 Fuel Use 70% Signature 80 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres Range 10.7 billion km (124 days at full power)
Epsilon R300/21 Shields (200) Total Fuel Cost 4,200 Litres per day
Quad R6/C3 Meson Cannon Turret (8x4) Range 60,000km TS: 20000 km/s Power 12-12 RM 6 ROF 5 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 40-20000 (3) Max Range: 80,000 km TS: 20000 km/s 88 75 62 50 38 25 12 0 0 0
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (32) Total Power Output 96 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Active Search Sensor S336-R100 (1) GPS 33600 Range 336.0m km Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor S28-R1 (1) GPS 28 Range 280k km Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH50-2000 (1) Sensitivity 2000 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 2000m km
EM Detection Sensor EM50-2000 (1) Sensitivity 2000 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 2000m km
ECCM-3 (1) ECM 30
This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes
This Carrier come in "clear" design when am lucky retrieve some Alien's poD and succesful interrogation.
2 times ive been encounter this curious design.
And in all 2 times am return winner,because this race lack on missile attack AND decent defence.
20 Gunboat 800-tons are loaded in Carrier hangar.Launched as well and in "right time" i see,STeve's code run as well.
BUT this ships LACK totally in maintenance spare parts.Bug?error?mistake?
Show ANNUAL FAILURE..absurd.hope steve check this.
Dnt know.
I think may have intentionally disabled the maintenance for this ship.
Post by: Sotak246 on January 26, 2010, 12:02:25 AM
Mark
edit - cotinued to explore the system and found 15 more 800 ton drones, they just sat there as I lasered them to death. Note, they took quite a bit of damage each before even being disabled...yikes.
Mark
Post by: Erik L on January 26, 2010, 12:17:43 AM
Post by: Greiger on January 28, 2010, 08:16:14 AM
As far as I could tell in a full minute of nonstop firing on it I never got through it's defenses. And after 30 seconds, it launched another swarm of GBs. I never stood a chance. 3 10000 ton laser corvettes, 2 8000 ton PD destroyers, 3 10000 ton missile corvettes and a 15000 ton EWACS, Resulted in no noticeable damage. I don't even know If I managed to penetrate the shields.
The EWACS was back picking up alien lifepods from the first wave, so at least it made it back out of system when the fight went bad.
Post by: Erik L on January 28, 2010, 08:30:49 AM
I had 40 missile ships (2 classes DDG/CAG), 10 escorts, 2 scouts and 30 beam ships (DD/CA). Total tonnage of my fleet was just under 600k tons. My missile ships fired dry (nearly). I think I had two CA with ~10-12 missiles total. Not having the designs on this computer, I think my fleet had around 5500 missiles, not counting the 4500 AMMs.
I'm not sure why the drones didn't close on me. They had a speed advantage of 5500 kps. I destroyed the last of them at around 20m km. The Queen popped prior to them, as that is what I focussed my fire on.
Post by: Greiger on January 28, 2010, 04:34:30 PM
Post by: Erik L on January 28, 2010, 06:04:39 PM
Post by: Erik L on January 28, 2010, 06:14:45 PM
I need to redesign the SS-7 series. The extended range is nice, but I might increase the size to 8 and dedicate the extra space to warhead. That will double the damage to 10. Which seems right to me that a larger missile should do more damage than a smaller one. Of course, that also drops the speed to under 20k.
Code: [Select]
SS-8-X1
Missile Size: 8 MSP (0.4 HS) Warhead: 10 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 18700 km/s Endurance: 85 minutes Range: 95.4m km
Thermal Sensor Strength: 0.055 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 55,000 km
Cost Per Missile: 5.055
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 187% 3k km/s 60% 5k km/s 37.4% 10k km/s 18.7%
Materials Required: 2.5x Tritanium 0.055x Uridium 2.25x Gallicite Fuel x8500
Development Cost for Project: 506RP
A little toying around comes up with this.
Code: [Select]
SS-8-X2
Missile Size: 8 MSP (0.4 HS) Warhead: 10 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 26200 km/s Endurance: 43 minutes Range: 67.4m km
Thermal Sensor Strength: 0.055 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 55,000 km
Cost Per Missile: 6.055
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 262% 3k km/s 80% 5k km/s 52.4% 10k km/s 26.2%
Materials Required: 2.5x Tritanium 0.055x Uridium 3.25x Gallicite Fuel x6000
Development Cost for Project: 606RP
Of those two designs, I'm partial to the SS-8-X2 over the X1.
Also as I mentioned, the Enterprise JCV need internal mags for the parasites. 4 shots and they are done. Of course, 160 of the Banshee missiles would put a cramp in anyone's day.
Post by: Greiger on January 28, 2010, 07:43:44 PM
With 7 or 8 ships that takes me 2 minutes per 5 seconds of game time. More If I have missile ships firing into the furball to try to minimize the number of missiles that self destruct because what it was targeting just got cut in half by a 30cm laser or something.
Post by: Hawkeye on February 15, 2010, 10:50:58 AM
In a recent engagement, I brought in 6 CG, 3 CE, 12 DDG, 6 DE, 3 DD (Laser), 36 Missile-FAC, 6 Scout-FAC
I was facing 200+ Star Swarm Gunboats.
After emptying the magazins of the CG/DDGs/Missile-FACs, I was in full retreat, with some 80 gunboats still in pursuit. It was obvious, I wouldn´t make it to the jumppoint.
So I ordered the FACs to slow down, so they would trail the main fleet some 200k km. When the gunboats reached firing range with the FACs, they too slowed down, allowing the main fleet to open the range. I then let the FACs stop and the gunboats too stopped. The time they needed to take out my FACs was enough to kill about 50 of them with AMMs from my escorts (most were damaged allready and while the whole swarm concentrated on one FAC, I spread my fire as much as I dared).
In the final phase, the remaining 25 to 30 gunboats cloased to point blank range, which let me use the numberous Meson PD-turrets on my escorts (range 15.000km). They were ripped appart. If they would have stayed at range, I probably would still have taken them out, but with a lot more damage to my fleet.
So, suggestion 1: The swarm should spread fire at least somewhat, at least against small targets.
suggestion 2: The swarm (but any NPR, realy) should ignore ships, that are no longer any threat and go for the bigger fish
suggestion 3: Beam armed NPR ships should use the range of their weapons. Don´t go to point blank range, if you outrange the majority of the enemies warships.
Post by: Beersatron on February 15, 2010, 01:16:39 PM
I just lost 9 10k ton GEs to a swarm, they were 2nd generation refits with good officers and crews. They were also my only GEs!
------
I am currently at war with an NPR, I am faster than them, but do not have the salvo density to get passed their massive home fleet so I bypassed it and chased down some freighters/colony ships and then headed to their homeworld (in the B component) figuring I could get a few licks in before home fleet caught up. This is with 3 CruRons of: 1 CLJ, 1 CLE, 2 CLG.
I could barely manage a few hits on their orbital bases, which was sweet btw. So I moved into AMM range to thicken my salvo density but in doing so I entered their longer AMM range so the PD protocols were overriding my specific targeting - which is correct imo. What ended up happening though is that their bases were reloading from the planet and my PD AMM were trying to hit their AMM that was trying to hit my ASM. Very confusing and I lost hundreds of AMM from self destruction!Not sure it is possible to make this 'smarter' unless there was a way to tell the PD if an incoming missile is targeted on a ship.
I ran out of AMM and decided to run away gracefully, the 500k KM I had to traverse to get outside their FC range was hellish as wave after wave of massive AMM salvos bore down on me. One armor 5 15k ton CLE got totally sand papered and lost some engines before finally limping out of range. I repaired the CLE and headed at a slight tangent back in general direction of entry JP. I do not know if they did it on purpose, but they managed to get a fleet in the direct line of my tangent course and the JP (I only know of the single JP, haven't surveyed so they could have came from further out). I skirted that fleet and decided to head to a colony of theirs in the A component. It had no defences and just a small garrison so I bombarded expecting to just do damage and then high tail it out of there. The population surrendered! Alas I had done too much damage and destroyed most of everything, not sure if they had any missiles before I leveled the place.
Problem (already noted by Steve I think) is that the NPR home fleet came along and bombarded the planet later. But also, a freighter came along too so I pwned it and captured the crew as earlier. Of about 15 crew interrogations I got partial geosurvey results for one system - anybody know the formula for intel?
I finally ran for the JP and got away and that got me to thinking that if they had a small squadron of cruisers sitting there waiting I would have been mince meat.
While this fighting was going on, production of 2 more CruRons completed at Earth. I had a 4th CruRon standing guard over the GEs that I had lost earlier - but had brought it home for repairs and refuel
Once I get a couple months training for all 6 CruRons I am going to go back in and see if I can either penetrate their home fleet defences or get some proper hits on their actual home world. Problem is, I have a colony 4 jumps from them and we have both built a lot of JGs! It has one 20k ton PDC and 12 FACs guarding it - snow balls chance in hell of surviving if their home fleet comes out to play.
Currently researching railguns from scratch to design a heavy hitter if I can't get passed their PD.
------
Precursors and Star Swarm just spawned in the same system!
And these Precursors have Beam/Missile defence bases plus a very sizable fleet. I finally dragged myself away from the PC around 1:30am after my NPR fight so haven't been watching the Precursor-Swarm fight yet, but they are fighting.
I never realised, but I presume that Precursors scale the same way NPRs scale as the game progresses? Hence the larger fleet, bases and mine fields?
This game as been virtually bug free and running for ages with 3 NPRs (although one is stuck in a distant B component 50billion km away from nearest survey location and another started same time as me but with poor shipyard generation) 6 Swarms and 6 precursor systems. Total of about 60 systems so far.
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 15, 2010, 02:49:18 PM
Quote from: "Hawkeye"
This is a suggestion for the Star Swarm.Funny you should mention this
In a recent engagement, I brought in 6 CG, 3 CE, 12 DDG, 6 DE, 3 DD (Laser), 36 Missile-FAC, 6 Scout-FAC
I was facing 200+ Star Swarm Gunboats.
After emptying the magazins of the CG/DDGs/Missile-FACs, I was in full retreat, with some 80 gunboats still in pursuit. It was obvious, I wouldn´t make it to the jumppoint.
So I ordered the FACs to slow down, so they would trail the main fleet some 200k km. When the gunboats reached firing range with the FACs, they too slowed down, allowing the main fleet to open the range. I then let the FACs stop and the gunboats too stopped. The time they needed to take out my FACs was enough to kill about 50 of them with AMMs from my escorts (most were damaged allready and while the whole swarm concentrated on one FAC, I spread my fire as much as I dared).
In the final phase, the remaining 25 to 30 gunboats cloased to point blank range, which let me use the numberous Meson PD-turrets on my escorts (range 15.000km). They were ripped appart. If they would have stayed at range, I probably would still have taken them out, but with a lot more damage to my fleet.
So, suggestion 1: The swarm should spread fire at least somewhat, at least against small targets.
suggestion 2: The swarm (but any NPR, realy) should ignore ships, that are no longer any threat and go for the bigger fish
suggestion 3: Beam armed NPR ships should use the range of their weapons. Don´t go to point blank range, if you outrange the majority of the enemies warships.
. I have been making changes to the target logic for NPRs and for the new Automated Fire option for player ships in v5.0 . It incorporates suggestions 1) and 2)3) is a little trickier as it also depends on fire control. A ship will do more damage closer-in because of increased damage but also because of better fire control. Because battles can be complex, such as close-range beam fights with missile ships firing into the melee (as just happened in my own campaign), staying at long-range from enemy beam ships that you outrange may not be the best option if you are also taking missile fire. Accepting some damage to take them out quickly might be better. Dealing with this type of situaiton is something I haven't really cracked yet in the NPR logic.
Steve
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 15, 2010, 03:05:29 PM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
Problem (already noted by Steve I think) is that the NPR home fleet came along and bombarded the planet later.Noted but not tackled yet :)
Quote
This game as been virtually bug free and running for ages with 3 NPRs (although one is stuck in a distant B component 50billion km away from nearest survey location and another started same time as me but with poor shipyard generation) 6 Swarms and 6 precursor systems. Total of about 60 systems so far.Fascinating updates. Sounds like you have a very enjoyable game going.
Steve
Post by: Beersatron on February 15, 2010, 04:17:57 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
QuoteThis game as been virtually bug free and running for ages with 3 NPRs (although one is stuck in a distant B component 50billion km away from nearest survey location and another started same time as me but with poor shipyard generation) 6 Swarms and 6 precursor systems. Total of about 60 systems so far.Fascinating updates. Sounds like you have a very enjoyable game going.
Steve
It truly has! Unfortunately I am no good at keeping notes or doing proper write ups so I can't help with 'advertising' the game in the fiction forums.
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 15, 2010, 06:30:36 PM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
I thought the brief write-up here conveyed very well how much fun you were havingQuote from: "Steve Walmsley"QuoteThis game as been virtually bug free and running for ages with 3 NPRs (although one is stuck in a distant B component 50billion km away from nearest survey location and another started same time as me but with poor shipyard generation) 6 Swarms and 6 precursor systems. Total of about 60 systems so far.Fascinating updates. Sounds like you have a very enjoyable game going.
Steve
It truly has! Unfortunately I am no good at keeping notes or doing proper write ups so I can't help with 'advertising' the game in the fiction forums.
Steve
Post by: Andrew on April 05, 2010, 08:20:41 AM
1) 2 Different NPR's have sent armed ship squadrons with active sensors to my homeworld while apparently not being hostile , of course this behaviour made me shoot them. Perhaps NPR's should not approach within some distance of a large population without hostile intent with armed ships
2)In the ensuing battles they targeted the largest ship present which was a freighter , while this cost me signigigant infrastructure loss it did not help them win the battle.
3) One NPR chased 2 ships faster than his fleet away from his homeworld and continued chasing them even as 35 more ships moving more slowly entered the system with active sensors and headed for his homeworld. this allowed me to attack the planet without fighting his fleet , they should have gone for the bigger threat or retreated to the homeworld
4) NPR's seem to fixate I found that one NPR had sent 4 gate construction ships into the same system which had a precursor in , I did this by counting the wrecks perhaps they should stop sending unarmed ships into a system until they have cleared it with warships
5) The orbital battlestations around their homeworld did a good job of shooting down missiles but they would be much more effective if they added some offensive missile launchers
6)The point defense AI spends too much time shooting at size 1 missiles when their are size 6 missiles incoming
Post by: Octavian30 on April 06, 2010, 08:04:41 PM
Post by: Steve Walmsley on April 08, 2010, 08:49:42 AM
Quote from: "Andrew"
Some problematic NPR Behaviour(not sure if they can be fixed)I am planning to tackle some of these, although probably not for v5.1. Its a useful summary list though so I will add it to my to do list.
1) 2 Different NPR's have sent armed ship squadrons with active sensors to my homeworld while apparently not being hostile , of course this behaviour made me shoot them. Perhaps NPR's should not approach within some distance of a large population without hostile intent with armed ships
2)In the ensuing battles they targeted the largest ship present which was a freighter , while this cost me signigigant infrastructure loss it did not help them win the battle.
3) One NPR chased 2 ships faster than his fleet away from his homeworld and continued chasing them even as 35 more ships moving more slowly entered the system with active sensors and headed for his homeworld. this allowed me to attack the planet without fighting his fleet , they should have gone for the bigger threat or retreated to the homeworld
4) NPR's seem to fixate I found that one NPR had sent 4 gate construction ships into the same system which had a precursor in , I did this by counting the wrecks perhaps they should stop sending unarmed ships into a system until they have cleared it with warships
5) The orbital battlestations around their homeworld did a good job of shooting down missiles but they would be much more effective if they added some offensive missile launchers
6)The point defense AI spends too much time shooting at size 1 missiles when their are size 6 missiles incoming
Steve