Post by: WCG on February 15, 2010, 02:52:12 PM
I'm not a wargamer, but I find SimCity-style games too boring. I like conflict - or the potential for conflict - in a game, though I actually enjoy the building aspects of strategy games far more than the warfare part. So I'm glad to see that Aurora contains both. And given these preferences, I want to play as a peaceful civilization, expansive, but actively hoping for peaceful relations with aliens. Given this background, here are my questions:
1) I've just started a geological survey of the planets and moons of Alpha Centauri using a low-tech (everything of mine is low-tech right now) civilian geosurvey ship. Frankly, it doesn't, as yet, even have a way to get back to the Sol system. But as a civilian ship, it doesn't have any other sensors. I assume that it would still see any alien presence when orbiting a planet, wouldn't it? After all, these ships do start with a level 1 in thermal and EM sensors.
2) It probably wouldn't see ships unless it was in the exact same location (using that passive sensor slide-bar, I can't tell if it can sense anything at all), but if it encounters anything hostile, well, it's both slow and completely unarmed. So it would die, no matter what. Eventually, I'll probably put passive sensors on my scouts. But if I understand correctly, active sensors would cause damage to my relations with other species, right? So, given that my goal is peaceful coexistence, is there any reason I'd want active sensors on my first-in scouts anyway?
Or am I missing something? I understand that my scouts will be dead ducks the first time they encounter something hostile. But this is the trade-off for not unnecessarily scaring new species, isn't it? Once I've explored the planets of a new system and found it empty, I'd feel free to send in military ships with active sensors (once I actually develop some
).My other questions are just loosely related (only to the extent that I'm not focusing on military technologies, and I know I'm going to get my butt kicked the first time I encounter something hostile):
3) Unlike the tutorial start, the conventional start begins with a whole bunch of Missile Complex Planetary Defense Centers. Other than having a large PVP value to keep my population happy, what good are they? Can they actually attack ships in the Sol system? If I understand correctly, they seem to show a zero chance of hitting something at any range. And since they weren't in the tutorial, I assume that I should do something with them,... but what? There's a "Refit PDC" option for them under the Industry tab, but no information as to what it would actually do.
4) Maybe I need to design a different PDC first? That's another thing I don't understand. What are they good for? Why would you build a PDC instead of a ship? I know you can tow them (with the appropriate technology). And I think the tutorial said that ships coming through a jump point would be disoriented briefly. So can you tow a PDC to a jump point and leave it there as a defensive strong-point? (I imagine in that case I might want to design the PDC with meson cannon and lots of armor?)
I've searched for info about PDCs here, but I haven't found anything that really helps. I'll learn most of this through experience, I'm sure, but I guess I don't understand even the basic idea of PDCs. And I really don't understand about those missile complexes (except for the realism of having them in the first place). Any help?
Thanks...
Post by: sloanjh on February 15, 2010, 03:13:27 PM
Quote from: "WCG"
1) I've just started a geological survey of the planets and moons of Alpha Centauri using a low-tech (everything of mine is low-tech right now) civilian geosurvey ship. Frankly, it doesn't, as yet, even have a way to get back to the Sol system. But as a civilian ship, it doesn't have any other sensors. I assume that it would still see any alien presence when orbiting a planet, wouldn't it? After all, these ships do start with a level 1 in thermal and EM sensors.It should do.
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2) It probably wouldn't see ships unless it was in the exact same location (using that passive sensor slide-bar, I can't tell if it can sense anything at all), but if it encounters anything hostile, well, it's both slow and completely unarmed. So it would die, no matter what. Eventually, I'll probably put passive sensors on my scouts. But if I understand correctly, active sensors would cause damage to my relations with other species, right? So, given that my goal is peaceful coexistence, is there any reason I'd want active sensors on my first-in scouts anyway?Two assumptions that aren't quite correct here:
1) Not all aliens are hostile.
2) The problem with active sensors is not when you're pinging them - it's when they see use (using their active sensors) in one of "their" systems (an NPR considers a systems to belong to itself if it has a population there). The reason (pre-5.0) to put a small active sensor on things that might run into aliens is so that you can get a race ID on them and open diplomatic relations.
That being said, for mass reasons I've started leaving off active sensors from my survey ships and putting them on my probe ships (the ones I send in first to see if there's any populations in the system).
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3) Unlike the tutorial start, the conventional start begins with a whole bunch of Missile Complex Planetary Defense Centers. Other than having a large PVP value to keep my population happy, what good are they? Can they actually attack ships in the Sol system? If I understand correctly, they seem to show a zero chance of hitting something at any range. And since they weren't in the tutorial, I assume that I should do something with them,... but what? There's a "Refit PDC" option for them under the Industry tab, but no information as to what it would actually do.They're pretty useless as they are, but they've got a LOT of heavy missile tubes. What I usually do is design an upgrade that rips out the old fire control and adds a TN one, but leaves the tubes and armor alone (to lower refit cost). I also build size-24 TN missiles for them that have a longer range than just sitting on the planet like ICBM do. I then refit the PDC to the new standard and build the missiles. Note that PDC refits seem to be broken at this time (not sure if Steve fixed it), so what I would do is refit all of them, and then after all the refit jobs are done simply go into the F5 screen in SM mode, unlock the design, and swap out the old fire control for the new. You're then free to delete the "upgraded" design since it won't have any PDC actually referring to it. Make sure to check the OOB tab (3rd one) on the F5 screen to make sure that you delete the design that isn't used by any ships
The "Refit PDC" task should change the class of the PDC to the new design.
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4) Maybe I need to design a different PDC first? That's another thing I don't understand. What are they good for? Why would you build a PDC instead of a ship? I know you can tow them (with the appropriate technology). And I think the tutorial said that ships coming through a jump point would be disoriented briefly. So can you tow a PDC to a jump point and leave it there as a defensive strong-point? (I imagine in that case I might want to design the PDC with meson cannon and lots of armor?)Yes, that's what I meant by "design an upgrade" - copy the PDC design then change the fire control.
PDC are built by industry and don't have a tonnage limit on construction, while ships are built by SY. In terms of limited resources, you're able to put together a missile-armed PDC defense for your homeworld MUCH more quickly than trying to build ships. Plus, they don't suck maintenance supplies. Just don't put non-meson beam weapons on PDC in atmosphere - atmosphere degrades beams.
And no, you can't tow them - they're on the planet (Planetary Defence Center). I think you're thinking of an OWP (Orbital Weapons Platform), which is just a ship without engines.
John
Post by: WCG on February 15, 2010, 07:58:16 PM
Quote from: "sloanjh"
Two assumptions that aren't quite correct here:
1) Not all aliens are hostile.
Yes, I did know that,...
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2) The problem with active sensors is not when you're pinging them - it's when they see use (using their active sensors) in one of "their" systems (an NPR considers a systems to belong to itself if it has a population there).
... but wow, I had that completely backwards. Thanks for the correction!
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The reason (pre-5.0) to put a small active sensor on things that might run into aliens is so that you can get a race ID on them and open diplomatic relations.
That makes sense, too.
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They're pretty useless as they are, but they've got a LOT of heavy missile tubes.
OK, that's a good point.
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And no, you can't tow them - they're on the planet (Planetary Defence Center). I think you're thinking of an OWP (Orbital Weapons Platform), which is just a ship without engines.
Oops! Yeah, I guess I had that screwed up, too. Thanks for the correction, John!
That also explains why you'd have ground troops there, I guess. That always seemed kind of weird to me. Put ground troops in orbit and they'd just make a nice big target, I'd think.
So,... can you tow an Orbital Weapons Platform to a jump point? Wait a minute, I get it. An OWP is a ship, basically, isn't it? I see that it's just a different hull type (which is just cosmetic, so it would work like any other ship without engines). So I guess I don't need an answer to that.
Thanks again for the help.
Bill
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 15, 2010, 08:02:28 PM
Quote from: "WCG"
So,... can you tow an Orbital Weapons Platform to a jump point? Wait a minute, I get it. An OWP is a ship, basically, isn't it? I see that it's just a different hull type (which is just cosmetic, so it would work like any other ship without engines). So I guess I don't need an answer to that.Yes, that's right. Ships, bases, FACs, fighters, etc. are all just ships with the same general design rules. One of things I wanted to avoid in Aurora was the super-fighter problem that affects some similar games. Fighters get weapons that are super-powerful for their size but for some reason ships don't mount a hundred fighter-sized weapons
. Internal consistency is a major design goal for me.Steve
Post by: WCG on February 15, 2010, 09:46:26 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Internal consistency is a major design goal for me.
That makes sense. I haven't played long enough to say much about it, but so far, this game is just incredible. I can't stop playing, since I always want to take just one more turn... Really, I can't praise it enough.
Bill
Post by: Father Tim on February 16, 2010, 12:14:03 PM
The main reason to put active sensors on your scouts is that you don't have to turn them on. Even if you do, a quick look around isn't much of a hit to Diplomacy. It's when you sit around with your actives on, month after month, scanning the aliens for tech and learning all about them that they get annoyed with you. Also remember that active sensors (ie yours) are detected by EM sensors (which are passives, so you're never sure if the aliens can see you using your actives) which every ship has, at Strength 1 if nothing else.
Post by: WCG on February 16, 2010, 01:49:37 PM
Quote from: "Father Tim"
The main reason to put active sensors on your scouts is that you don't have to turn them on. Even if you do, a quick look around isn't much of a hit to Diplomacy. It's when you sit around with your actives on, month after month, scanning the aliens for tech and learning all about them that they get annoyed with you.
OK, this is where I get confused again. Re. the diplomatic impact, does it matter whether or not I use active sensors?
I understood John to say that the diplomatic hit was because my ship were seen in a system the aliens claimed for themselves. Whether that ship had active sensors at all wouldn't matter, right? OK, when the active sensors are turned on, it would make my ship much easier to spot. But other than that, would it matter whether or not my active sensors were in use?
And basically, I'd want to spot aliens - and certainly an alien colony - as soon as possible, since wandering around one of their systems isn't going to help my diplomatic efforts, even if I didn't know they were there. So wouldn't I want my active sensors turned on all the time (assuming that I'm not deliberately trying to sneak somewhere)?
Bill
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 16, 2010, 04:00:59 PM
Quote from: "WCG"
Using active sensors doesn't upset alien races. It used to in an earlier version because you used to be able to scan alien ships with active sensors and slowly learn information about their technology. Remaining in their populated systems where they can see you will upset them and the more/larger ships you have the more upset they will get. Once you designate you as friendly, you can enter their systems without penalty. If you are neutral and have a trade agreement, your civilian shipping can enter their territory without penalty.Quote from: "Father Tim"The main reason to put active sensors on your scouts is that you don't have to turn them on. Even if you do, a quick look around isn't much of a hit to Diplomacy. It's when you sit around with your actives on, month after month, scanning the aliens for tech and learning all about them that they get annoyed with you.
OK, this is where I get confused again. Re. the diplomatic impact, does it matter whether or not I use active sensors?
I understood John to say that the diplomatic hit was because my ship were seen in a system the aliens claimed for themselves. Whether that ship had active sensors at all wouldn't matter, right? OK, when the active sensors are turned on, it would make my ship much easier to spot. But other than that, would it matter whether or not my active sensors were in use?
And basically, I'd want to spot aliens - and certainly an alien colony - as soon as possible, since wandering around one of their systems isn't going to help my diplomatic efforts, even if I didn't know they were there. So wouldn't I want my active sensors turned on all the time (assuming that I'm not deliberately trying to sneak somewhere)?
Bill
Alien populations will be easier to detect on passive sensors since they give off large thermal and EM emissions, although active sensors would pick up shipyards in orbit or orbital bases.
Steve
Post by: WCG on February 16, 2010, 06:37:23 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Using active sensors doesn't upset alien races. It used to in an earlier version because you used to be able to scan alien ships with active sensors and slowly learn information about their technology.
OK, that must be where the misunderstanding is, in remembering an earlier version.
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Alien populations will be easier to detect on passive sensors since they give off large thermal and EM emissions, although active sensors would pick up shipyards in orbit or orbital bases.
Thanks for the info!
Bill
Post by: WCG on February 20, 2010, 03:25:29 PM
In Task Group Orders, Actions Available, there's "Extended Orbit." What does that mean? How does that differ from just moving to a planet?
I wondered if I should use that action when ordering a ship with a Terraform module, but just moving the ship to the colony seemed to work just fine. So when would we want to use "Extended Orbit"?
And as long as I'm asking, there's "Activate/Deactivate Transponder" in those orders, too. I'm guessing that a transponder is something that will be a research option later? If so, will there be instructions then? Or should I know what this is for? I mean, I know - very roughly - what a transponder is in RL, but how is it used in the game?
Thanks,
Bill
Post by: Brian Neumann on February 20, 2010, 03:38:10 PM
Quote from: "WCG"
This is an unrelated question, but I can't find a better place for it (and a search of the forum didn't help):1.) Extended orbit is for times when you want your ships to stay with a planet, but not right on top of the planet. Mostly used for games with more than one spacefaring power on earth. This way the ships still count as in orbit for maintenance facilities, ect, but are not at point blank beam range.
In Task Group Orders, Actions Available, there's "Extended Orbit." What does that mean? How does that differ from just moving to a planet?
I wondered if I should use that action when ordering a ship with a Terraform module, but just moving the ship to the colony seemed to work just fine. So when would we want to use "Extended Orbit"?
And as long as I'm asking, there's "Activate/Deactivate Transponder" in those orders, too. I'm guessing that a transponder is something that will be a research option later? If so, will there be instructions then? Or should I know what this is for? I mean, I know - very roughly - what a transponder is in RL, but how is it used in the game?
Thanks,
Bill
2.) The transponder is there for a couple of reasons. Civilians will tend to have thiers on unless you change the setting on the system map (F3 screen) Your ships can either have them on or off. If they are anybody in the system will know where they are. They also will give class info to allied powers, and to enemy powers if they have enough intell on your ships. Obviously they need to be turned off if their is an enemy ship in system.
Hope this helps you
Brian
Post by: WCG on February 20, 2010, 04:43:47 PM
After all, you can see your own ships. And while there might be an occasion where you'd want allies to see that class info (though I don't know what that occasion might be), your allies would probably know even more than your enemies about your ships, wouldn't they? At any rate, it would hardly be worth the risk of showing any unseen enemy where all your ships are, I'd think.
What am I missing here? Since we players seem to be omniscient about our own ships, I don't see why I'd ever want to turn transponders on.
Bill
Post by: Father Tim on February 20, 2010, 04:55:08 PM
Post by: sloanjh on February 20, 2010, 05:54:18 PM
Quote from: "WCG"
Thanks, Brian. That does help. But I don't understand why you'd ever want to turn transponders on.
After all, you can see your own ships. And while there might be an occasion where you'd want allies to see that class info (though I don't know what that occasion might be), your allies would probably know even more than your enemies about your ships, wouldn't they? At any rate, it would hardly be worth the risk of showing any unseen enemy where all your ships are, I'd think.
What am I missing here? Since we players seem to be omniscient about our own ships, I don't see why I'd ever want to turn transponders on.
Bill
Role playing.
Post by: Brian Neumann on February 20, 2010, 06:16:57 PM
Brian
Post by: WCG on February 20, 2010, 09:44:28 PM
Quote from: "Brian"
Besides roleplaying, when you have an ally with a defensive treaty or commercial treaty you want to see their ships when they are in your systems.
Maybe I've got this backwards, but how would turning on your own transponders help you see an ally's ships? When you turn on a transponder in a ship, doesn't that send out an ID for that ship? I mean, it would help your allies ID you, not you to ID them,... unless I've got this all backwards, which wouldn't surprise me.
Do computer-controlled races ever attack allied ships by mistake, or is it just the player who'd make a mistake like that?
Also, there's another order I'm curious about: "Send Message." What kind of message would you be sending, and to whom would you be sending it?
There's a lot to this game! That's good - very good - but it's quite a job trying to understand everything, as I'm sure everyone here well knows.
Bill
Post by: sloanjh on February 20, 2010, 11:38:55 PM
Send message sends a message to yourself in the event log. It's useful for reminding yourself to do something after a ship has gotten to a spot in its orders, e.g. you might send "infrastructure landed on Hades, send colonists" from a cargo fleet. The message would appear in the event log whenever the order executed.
John
Post by: WCG on February 21, 2010, 10:03:19 PM
Quote from: "sloanjh"
There's probably a thread on transponders somewhere in mechanics from a year or two ago - you could probably find it by searching for messages from *Steve* containing "transponder" if you want to see the reasoning that went on.
Thanks, I found it. I hadn't gone back far enough in my previous search.
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Send message sends a message to yourself in the event log. It's useful for reminding yourself to do something after a ship has gotten to a spot in its orders
That makes sense. Great idea!
Thanks, John.
Bill
Post by: WCG on February 22, 2010, 12:43:44 PM
Quote from: "sloanjh"
They're pretty useless as they are, but they've got a LOT of heavy missile tubes. What I usually do is design an upgrade that rips out the old fire control and adds a TN one, but leaves the tubes and armor alone (to lower refit cost). I also build size-24 TN missiles for them that have a longer range than just sitting on the planet like ICBM do. I then refit the PDC to the new standard and build the missiles.
OK, I finally got around to doing all this (and yeah, it worked fine going into SpaceMaster mode for that workaround). Before I actually run into aliens, though, I want to be sure I understand something. These missile bases have new, long-range missiles and a fire control to match. Is that all I need?
I don't have an active sensor anywhere in the Sol system yet. In the event of an attack on the Earth by hostile aliens, I realize that an active sensor might work better than my planet-based passive sensors, but is it absolutely essential that I have an active sensor? As long as any sensor anywhere picks up an attacking fleet, these missiles will be able to use their fire control to attack the ships, right?
I understand that they won't be able to attack invisible ships, of course, but planet-based passive sensors have a pretty long range. Can I rely on that, at least at the beginning of the game? So far, these missile bases are my only defense against anything at all. (But then, I haven't started exploring the galaxy yet, either.)
Thanks,
Bill
Post by: Nabobalis on February 22, 2010, 01:21:20 PM
Quote from: "WCG"
Quote from: "sloanjh"They're pretty useless as they are, but they've got a LOT of heavy missile tubes. What I usually do is design an upgrade that rips out the old fire control and adds a TN one, but leaves the tubes and armor alone (to lower refit cost). I also build size-24 TN missiles for them that have a longer range than just sitting on the planet like ICBM do. I then refit the PDC to the new standard and build the missiles.
OK, I finally got around to doing all this (and yeah, it worked fine going into SpaceMaster mode for that workaround). Before I actually run into aliens, though, I want to be sure I understand something. These missile bases have new, long-range missiles and a fire control to match. Is that all I need?
I don't have an active sensor anywhere in the Sol system yet. In the event of an attack on the Earth by hostile aliens, I realize that an active sensor might work better than my planet-based passive sensors, but is it absolutely essential that I have an active sensor? As long as any sensor anywhere picks up an attacking fleet, these missiles will be able to use their fire control to attack the ships, right?
I understand that they won't be able to attack invisible ships, of course, but planet-based passive sensors have a pretty long range. Can I rely on that, at least at the beginning of the game? So far, these missile bases are my only defense against anything at all. (But then, I haven't started exploring the galaxy yet, either.)
Thanks,
Bill
I think you NEED an active sensor, a passive sensor doesn't give enough information to target anything. But I'm still new so I can't be sure.
Post by: Brian Neumann on February 22, 2010, 01:41:40 PM
This is obviously not easy if the sensor contact does not continue on a straight, consistant speed path. Also the missile sensors are probably going to be pretty big early in the game causing your missile to be a large, slow target that is easy for point defense to shoot down. Put a point of armour on to make it more survivable, and make sure you have lots of endurance on the missile as well. It will loiter at the initial way point until it spots a target or runs out of fuel.
This is the only way you will be able to fire on a passive sensor contact. All other weapons require that there be an active sensor detecting the target. The active sensor does not need to be on the firing ship/base however. I often will make a pdc that is nothing but a big active sensor and lots of armour. It is very hard to put out of action, and if the missile bases are small they are often invisable at long range so they are not fired on by an attacker.
It is also a good strategy for designing colony world protection. Each individual pdc is small and easily transported/assembled in place. Once they are assembled you can keep sending/building more of them if you need to. They are also cheap enough to upgrade easily. This is especially true if all you really need to upgrade is the active sensor unit.
Brian
Post by: Nabobalis on February 22, 2010, 01:45:53 PM
Quote from: "Brian"
Normally you do need to have an active sensor contact to fire on a ship. There is a way around it, but it can be difficult. If your missiles have their own sensors on board you can set a way point at where the target should be when the missiles get there. Fire on that point and let the missiles fly to there. If thier onboard sensors find a target they will home in and attack.
This is obviously not easy if the sensor contact does not continue on a straight, consistant speed path. Also the missile sensors are probably going to be pretty big early in the game causing your missile to be a large, slow target that is easy for point defense to shoot down. Put a point of armour on to make it more survivable, and make sure you have lots of endurance on the missile as well. It will loiter at the initial way point until it spots a target or runs out of fuel.
This is the only way you will be able to fire on a passive sensor contact. All other weapons require that there be an active sensor detecting the target. The active sensor does not need to be on the firing ship/base however. I often will make a pdc that is nothing but a big active sensor and lots of armour. It is very hard to put out of action, and if the missile bases are small they are often invisable at long range so they are not fired on by an attacker.
It is also a good strategy for designing colony world protection. Each individual pdc is small and easily transported/assembled in place. Once they are assembled you can keep sending/building more of them if you need to. They are also cheap enough to upgrade easily. This is especially true if all you really need to upgrade is the active sensor unit.
Brian
Do you have the designs of those PDCs by any chance?
Post by: Brian Neumann on February 22, 2010, 01:53:12 PM
Quote from: "Nabobalis"
Do you have the designs of those PDCs by any chance?Not at the moment as I just started a new conventional campaign. I will make some and post them later today.
Brian
Post by: Nabobalis on February 22, 2010, 01:56:01 PM
Quote from: "Brian"
Quote from: "Nabobalis"Do you have the designs of those PDCs by any chance?Not at the moment as I just started a new conventional campaign. I will make some and post them later today.
Brian
Thanks. I'm still trying to get the hand of missile based designs.
Post by: WCG on February 22, 2010, 05:23:27 PM
Quote from: "Brian"
Normally you do need to have an active sensor contact to fire on a ship.
OK, thanks, Brian. I kept thinking I'd read something like that, but I couldn't find it again. And then I thought, well, I've got fire control aiming every missile, so why would I need anything else?
I'll go ahead and put an active sensor on the Earth.
Thanks again, both of you.
Bill
Post by: sloanjh on February 22, 2010, 11:01:15 PM
Quote from: "WCG"
Quote from: "Brian"Normally you do need to have an active sensor contact to fire on a ship.
OK, thanks, Brian. I kept thinking I'd read something like that, but I couldn't find it again. And then I thought, well, I've got fire control aiming every missile, so why would I need anything else?
What you may be thinking about is a change in 5.0 for identifying contacts. Before 5.0, you needed to have an active fix on a contact in order to be able to "fingerprint" it, i.e. identify race and class. Passive contacts would only result in e.g. "unknown thermal contact". As of 5.0, it's assumed that passive contacts give you enough information for a fingerprint (in the same way that sonar contacts are assigned by their narrow-band frequency lines).
The questions you're asking about active vs. passive sensors giving a firing solution are good ones, since e.g. submarines can fire at a purely passive contact (although the torpedoes they fire have their own homing heads as Brian described for Aurora). My summary of the reason for requiring an active contact in order to be able to fire is that it's a mechanics/abstraction issue. In the real world, active sensors give you more information quickly and precisely than passives. The problem (for Aurora) is that you can get roughly the same information if you take longer - it's called Target Motion Analysis and it's what commanders have staffs and computers for. So all the hard work and timescales for localizing passive contacts are abstracted away in Aurora - otherwise the passive tracking part of the game would be unplayable. So Steve had to find a benefit for active sensors that passives don't have: this is the requirement that you have an active fix on a target you want to fire at. This works out very well - it forces players to add both active and passive capabilities to their combat fleets without using an arbitrary rule to do so.
John