Post by: nichaey on June 21, 2010, 10:23:33 PM
Now I remember a fiction, whose name escapes me, used TN materials to treat space like a liquid.
This made me think of the idea of a projectile type that would be treated as a missile, but would lose velocity over time due to not having thrust, thereby losing accuracy over distance.
discuss (constructively)
Post by: dooots on June 21, 2010, 11:49:40 PM
Post by: nichaey on June 22, 2010, 12:24:44 AM
Ie it would behave almost exactly like a missile, only it would lose speed and accuracy over distance. But, it would have the advantage of being smaller and costing less, meaning you could fit more in your magazines as well.
I guess the name guided railguns is misleading, as its pretty much a variation of a missile.
Post by: dooots on June 22, 2010, 01:21:33 AM
Post by: UnLimiTeD on June 22, 2010, 07:24:06 AM
I mean, you don't need to fight Star Swarm to gain access to mesons, now do you?
Post by: symon on June 22, 2010, 07:29:26 AM
In short the Coilgun is a launcher for submunitions. It gets the Submunition into proximity to the target, which then detonates. The warhead is either a cluster of kinetic kill penetrators or a bomb pumped X-Laser warhead.
Post by: dooots on June 22, 2010, 07:50:52 PM
Quote from: "UnLimiTeD"
I find it rather awkward that you always have to capture those weapons from other races, prevents RPing some alien race with different tech.
I mean, you don't need to fight Star Swarm to gain access to mesons, now do you?
I do agree that it would be nice if you could research them from the start but given that they are basically unlimited missiles that would probably make them the default starting weapon for everyone. Well unless the early techs really are not that great.
Hmm looking at the tech the first generation would only have a range of 400,000 km and rate of fire of 30 seconds and speed of 12,500 kms. The second generation would have a range of 1.2 mkm and a rate of fire of 20 seconds and a speed of 20,000 kms. (if I understand how they work correctly).
So maybe there should be an option to start with them instead of missiles? Although all you really lose then is range unless the torpedoes have a low hit chance on missiles.
Edit:
If NPR's could make the same choice you also run the chance of running into an NPR with longer range torpedoes, and you lose the flexibility that missiles have (being able to trade stats for other stats).
Also plasma torpedoes do not lose accuracy over range like the OP's weapon so I guess it could be a different weapon all though I don't know how you would make it compete with plasma torpedoes. Man I was being dense last night.
Post by: nichaey on June 22, 2010, 09:10:54 PM
It would be fired from a specific launcher (like a missile launcher, only it would use power)
After it was fired it would lose velocity and accuracy but not damage over time.
It role would be to offer a missile substitute (although less effective) for those gallicite starved empire. The munitions would still have to be produced, but would be cheaper due to not having an engine.
Post by: Charlie Beeler on June 23, 2010, 07:50:58 AM
Currently there are 2 classes of weapons open to players at the start of the game:
1) Direct fire beam weapons
2) Seaking missiles
Direct fire beam weapons as a class:
a) do not require ammunition
b) in game scale are short ranged
c) in general use bore size to determine base damage
d) in general use focus control to determine maximum range
e) in general use capacitors to regulate cyclic rate
f) in general require energy from power plants
g) require beam fire control to engage targets
The beam fire control has a hard maximum range limit of 5 light seconds even though several beam weapons can be designed to have a greater range potential. This has been covered in detail elsewhere and is only mentioned here as a known constraint.
Seaking missiles as a class:
a) do require ammunition
b) damage and range potential are functions of missile components and design
c) cyclic rate is a function of launcher size and reload rate
d) does not require seperate power
e) requires missile fire control to engage targets
Missile fire control has no minimum or maximum range limit. The only limiting factor is available sensor technology.
There is a third class of weapon that currently is only available through the Invader NPR race. The class is a hybrid of the first two and currently the only weapon within it is the Plasma Torpedo.
Plasma Torpedoes as a class:
a) do not require ammunition
b) damage potential is based on designed warhead strength
c) being a seeking weapon they have a speed component
d) range is a function designed integrity and seeking speed
e) cyclic rate is function of recharge rate. This appears to be both a capacitor and an intgrated power plant.
f) does not require a seperate power plant
g) requires missile fire control to engage targets
With that laid out it sounds like the suggestion is for hybrid class that is accessable to the players from the start. The only real issue I have with the suggestion is velocity degridation. Outside of a nebula, within the scope of the game there isn't a reason for this degridation.
Post by: UnLimiTeD on June 23, 2010, 08:36:47 AM
I think unlocking Plasma Torpedoes and Advanced beam weapons for around 100k tech points or maybe even a Million, would be the way to go to allow players to utilize the SM functions.
An alternative would be to let the player pick a racial Strenght at start, so you could RB different races, one of them has access to most beam weapons and missiles, like now, one focuses on advanced Lasers and Microwaves, but can't use missiles without capturing them (maybe originating in a nebula?), and one has Hybrid weapons (like the PT), but lacks access to Mesons and Lasers.
Also, given the Plasma Torpedo is essentially a Short range missile that requires energy instead of ammunition, shouldn't there be also a Beam weapon that requires Ammunition instead of energy?^^
Post by: Charlie Beeler on June 23, 2010, 09:05:25 AM
Quote from: "UnLimiTeD"
Generally, it should be possible to research all weapons from the start, with penalties.
I think unlocking Plasma Torpedoes and Advanced beam weapons for around 100k tech points or maybe even a Million, would be the way to go to allow players to utilize the SM functions.
An alternative would be to let the player pick a racial Strenght at start, so you could RB different races, one of them has access to most beam weapons and missiles, like now, one focuses on advanced Lasers and Microwaves, but can't use missiles without capturing them (maybe originating in a nebula?), and one has Hybrid weapons (like the PT), but lacks access to Mesons and Lasers.
Also, given the Plasma Torpedo is essentially a Short range missile that requires energy instead of ammunition, shouldn't there be also a Beam weapon that requires Ammunition instead of energy?^^
I'm definetly in the camp that not everything should be available to the player at game start. I've made the suggestion in a couple of flavors to have a means to restrict a races starting tech even farther than it is currently. So far, Steve has not been willing to implement.
If I recall correctly...both railguns and gauss cannons where proposed to have ammunition requirements that didn't make it to the final versions. Personally it make sense to me that both should require ammunition since they are, using a broad brush stroke here, essentually mass drivers.
Post by: nichaey on June 23, 2010, 01:48:04 PM
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
Outside of a nebula, within the scope of the game there isn't a reason for this degridation.
I don't see putting warp drives on regular missiles as a doable thing, so there isn't a reason for the max speed on missiles (other then balance), other then "trans newtonian drag".
The main reason is for flavour though, as it would add a new level of defense/offense that would become more severe the closer fleets got to each other. I know this already happens to an extent with lasers, but this would be longer ranged.
To summarize
Guided mass drivers
-requires ammunition (less then missiles)
-in game would be medium-short to medium-long ranged (would have to be balanced)
-would have a variable initial launch velocity and variable drag. (perhaps a technology for each)
-range is based off of launch velocity and drag (self terminating once velocity reaches zero)
-cyclic rate would probably use capacitor recharge like missiles
-either seperate or built in power plant (whatever seems appropriate to steve)
-would require missile fire control
Post by: Charlie Beeler on June 23, 2010, 02:19:47 PM
Quote from: "nichaey"
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"Outside of a nebula, within the scope of the game there isn't a reason for this degridation.
I don't see putting warp drives on regular missiles as a doable thing, so there isn't a reason for the max speed on missiles (other then balance), other then "trans newtonian drag".
The main reason is for flavour though, as it would add a new level of defense/offense that would become more severe the closer fleets got to each other. I know this already happens to an extent with lasers, but this would be longer ranged.
To summarize
Guided mass drivers
-requires ammunition (less then missiles)
-in game would be medium-short to medium-long ranged (would have to be balanced)
-would have a variable initial launch velocity and variable drag. (perhaps a technology for each)
-range is based off of launch velocity and drag (self terminating once velocity reaches zero)
-cyclic rate would probably use capacitor recharge like missiles
-either seperate or built in power plant (whatever seems appropriate to steve)
-would require missile fire control
Again, what drag. What is source. All drive tech in Aurora is interia-less. Both ships and missiles use the same tech and it's not warp-drives. It does produce a "drive-bubble" hense no drag per the techno-babble when this was started. I don't fully recall the techno-babble for the drive issues in nebula's though. The plasma torps range limit is a function of being able to hold the plasma together effectively and degrades.
Perhaps the guidence package has some form of degridation over either range or time related endurance.
If your going to require ammunition then the cyclic rate should probably be at least partially tied to launcher reload rates similiar to missiles. But capacitor recharge also makes sense.
Post by: Zorgn on June 23, 2010, 03:42:19 PM
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
Again, what drag. What is source.
Quote from: "AuroraWiki"
Once in the possession of sufficient quantities of the minerals, the scientists discovered the minerals somehow intruded into the space-time of the alternate dimension and that spacecraft built from these elements would be affected by some of the physical laws of that universe. They theorized that this would allow spacecraft to turn in space like ships in water but it would also quickly slow them to a stop if their engines ceased operating.Wiki (http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=Trans_Newtonian_Elements)
I think that's his drag, which makes some sense to me. You'd have to fire your space bullet at incredible speeds to have it get anywhere, and I'd expect it to lose damage in the long run due to lessening speed unless it's explosive or something unusual. So basically normal railguns with a guidance package and possible boosting of the damage dealt at closer ranges. :shrug:
Post by: Erik L on June 23, 2010, 04:33:03 PM
Quote from: "Zorgn"
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"Again, what drag. What is source.Quote from: "AuroraWiki"Once in the possession of sufficient quantities of the minerals, the scientists discovered the minerals somehow intruded into the space-time of the alternate dimension and that spacecraft built from these elements would be affected by some of the physical laws of that universe. They theorized that this would allow spacecraft to turn in space like ships in water but it would also quickly slow them to a stop if their engines ceased operating.Wiki (http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=Trans_Newtonian_Elements)
I think that's his drag, which makes some sense to me. You'd have to fire your space bullet at incredible speeds to have it get anywhere, and I'd expect it to lose damage in the long run due to lessening speed unless it's explosive or something unusual. So basically normal railguns with a guidance package and possible boosting of the damage dealt at closer ranges. :shrug:
That particular wiki page was not written by Steve. I'm not saying it is wrong, I'm just saying it may not be 100% accurate.
Post by: welchbloke on June 23, 2010, 06:25:29 PM
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
I wrote the bulk of that page; however, I actaully cut and pasted from one of Steve's responses to a thread. I didn't change the thrust of Steve's comments. That is not to say that Steve may not have changed his mind by nowQuote from: "Zorgn"Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"Again, what drag. What is source.Quote from: "AuroraWiki"Once in the possession of sufficient quantities of the minerals, the scientists discovered the minerals somehow intruded into the space-time of the alternate dimension and that spacecraft built from these elements would be affected by some of the physical laws of that universe. They theorized that this would allow spacecraft to turn in space like ships in water but it would also quickly slow them to a stop if their engines ceased operating.Wiki (http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=Trans_Newtonian_Elements)
I think that's his drag, which makes some sense to me. You'd have to fire your space bullet at incredible speeds to have it get anywhere, and I'd expect it to lose damage in the long run due to lessening speed unless it's explosive or something unusual. So basically normal railguns with a guidance package and possible boosting of the damage dealt at closer ranges. :shrug:
That particular wiki page was not written by Steve. I'm not saying it is wrong, I'm just saying it may not be 100% accurate.
Post by: UnLimiTeD on June 23, 2010, 08:25:02 PM
Quote
I'm definetly in the camp that not everything should be available to the player at game start.That, sadly, is not even an argument.
I think it's bad that players have access to elusive stuff like Mesons, but advanced technology or PTs or the like need you to find them first.
Why can't you start with some of that, but drastically lack in something else.
Why is the only effective choice you have to play with human technology, or at least point of view, no matter what you name your race?
I think a race starting in a nebula should not have access to missile engine research, why would they ever think of it?
BTT:
While were at it, weird hybrid weapons, a Beam weapon that has a limited amount of shots before Hangar Reload, like Box launchers.
Also, could someone sum up what is the actual gameplay sense of this suggestion?
A beam weapon with long range accuracy?
A new weapon of the PT kind?
Beams requiring Ammo?
Post by: nichaey on June 24, 2010, 12:37:34 AM
Quote from: "Zorgn"
Wiki (http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=Trans_Newtonian_Elements)Thank you for thinking to look there. I was thinking it was from one of Steve's fictions, which would have been a bitch to find
Quote from: "UnLimiTeD"
Also, could someone sum up what is the actual gameplay sense of this suggestion?
A beam weapon with long range accuracy?
A new weapon of the PT kind?
Beams requiring Ammo?
I was thinking more along the lines of cheap to manufacture, less effective missiles (especially at range). The launcher mechanisms would take up more space then missile launchers, but the ordinance would take up less room, so you could store more.
If used in an ADC of similar size to a missile ADC it would
-have smaller volleys (due to increased launcher size)
-be able to intercept missiles at greater ranges (though with much less accuracy due to decreased speed)
-carry slightly more irdinance
Post by: UnLimiTeD on June 24, 2010, 06:00:21 AM
Like, "Accelerating Missile Launcher", +30000km/s speed, up to 90000km/s speed. -3000km/s per 5 seconds.
Could be done with just making a special launcher, but that would probably end in a new techline again...
Post by: Charlie Beeler on June 24, 2010, 08:03:21 AM
Quote from: "welchbloke"
I wrote the bulk of that page; however, I actaully cut and pasted from one of Steve's responses to a thread. I didn't change the thrust of Steve's comments. That is not to say that Steve may not have changed his mind by now
That feels like it came out of the Preservation campaigns.
Post by: Charlie Beeler on June 24, 2010, 08:34:02 AM
Quote from: "UnLimiTeD"
True, it's a commentary reply to the wish of having all tech paths available to the player from the start. Had it been an arguement I'd have detailed why I disagree.QuoteI'm definetly in the camp that not everything should be available to the player at game start.That, sadly, is not even an argument.
Quote
I think it's bad that players have access to elusive stuff like Mesons, but advanced technology or PTs or the like need you to find them first.Part of this goes back to when Steve first introduced the Precursers to the game. He wanted certain tech lines that were Precurser race specific and players would only have access by either salvaging a Precurser wreck of finding it in a ruin.
Quote
Why can't you start with some of that, but drastically lack in something else.Steve's answer in the past has been that it's easier to code. He may change his mind in the future when it's a feature he wants.
Quote
Why is the only effective choice you have to play with human technology, or at least point of view, no matter what you name your race?See above
Quote
I think a race starting in a nebula should not have access to missile engine research, why would they ever think of it?See above
Quote
BTT:
While were at it, weird hybrid weapons, a Beam weapon that has a limited amount of shots before Hangar Reload, like Box launchers.
I think what your looking for here is an external means of recharging a beams capacitor. This is one I've considered suggesting a few times since it would expand the ability of mounting beams in fighters and gunboats
Quote
Also, could someone sum up what is the actual gameplay sense of this suggestion?Is this linked to the item above or those below?
Quote
A beam weapon with long range accuracy?Been covered in detail recently
Quote
A new weapon of the PT kind?Isn't that what this topic is covering?
Quote
Beams requiring Ammo?Such as??
Post by: UnLimiTeD on June 24, 2010, 09:19:32 AM
Suggesting guided railguns is just the surface, as he answered later, it was basically a request for smaller missiles at the cost of bigger launchers, effectively, that is.
[spoiler:3jogoomd]I think it would be a possibility codewise to have a checkbox that when checked has the base unlock for all current weapons cost 5k, and missiles and invader/precurser-tech 10k and advanced weapons 25k with tech points automatically spend and all other weapons are unavailable until found.[/spoiler:3jogoomd]
forget that.
An SM function to allow players to create "Playercontrolled Precursors" would do that a lot easier.
But yes, thats what I meant with ammo for beam weapons.
Basically, like Missiles, I'd like a 33% (50x reload), 20% (2x Reload, 2 shots before Hangar/maintenance reload) tech line for Lasers and Microwaves.
It's already there, would be two more levels of the same line, wouldn't it?
And the idea of Missile Accelerators doesn't sound bad either, would allow for short range missiles with enormous payloads and good hit ratio, but doesn't do much on long ranges.
Post by: welchbloke on June 24, 2010, 10:16:39 AM
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
Sounds about right. I think that was when Steve established a lot of the TN technobabble.Quote from: "welchbloke"I wrote the bulk of that page; however, I actaully cut and pasted from one of Steve's responses to a thread. I didn't change the thrust of Steve's comments. That is not to say that Steve may not have changed his mind by now
That feels like it came out of the Preservation campaigns.
Post by: symon on June 24, 2010, 04:50:32 PM
For example, there would be the 'Base' line that everyone would get, and in addition assorted 'advanced/divergent' tech lines that at present are only acquired by salvage/discovery.
The advantage is that if you wanted to play a remnant of the Precursors fighting their way back, you could do. In theory, several tech options could be developed, such as 'ramming tech' and the desire/will to use it.
Post by: Beersatron on June 24, 2010, 06:47:08 PM
Quote from: "symon"
Maybe what would resolve this issue without damage to anyone's needs is to divide technologies into 'lines' and allow selection of the tech lines the player (and standard NPCs?) have access to on game setup.
For example, there would be the 'Base' line that everyone would get, and in addition assorted 'advanced/divergent' tech lines that at present are only acquired by salvage/discovery.
The advantage is that if you wanted to play a remnant of the Precursors fighting their way back, you could do. In theory, several tech options could be developed, such as 'ramming tech' and the desire/will to use it.
I think that ultimately Steve designs Aurora to be a sandbox, so he generally lets everybody do everything with as few restrictions as possible.
But, he wants to present people with a challenge therefore he creates these standalone NPRs that have certain behaviors and techs. You can get the techs from interaction with the NPR but you have to 'earn' it.
End of the day, just ask Steve nicely to enable the new tech to be researched. Reason he hasn't responded yet is because he is off having too much fun Vegas
Post by: UnLimiTeD on June 24, 2010, 06:55:59 PM
Less work, and in RP campaigns you use those functions anyways.
Post by: Morrigi on July 03, 2010, 11:05:42 PM
Quote from: "UnLimiTeD"
Just ask him to add an SM function to unlock it, like you had it captured, and then you can research it normally
Less work, and in RP campaigns you use those functions anyways.
Yes please, I want my plasma torpedos. >.>