Aurora 4x
VB6 Aurora => Bureau of Ship Design => Topic started by: Thiosk on March 18, 2011, 03:10:50 AM
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Greetings!
As my race takes its furtive first steps into the galaxy, the bigness of it all dawns on them. Big and empty.
And possibly full of things with nasty sharp pointy teeth.
We need missiles, friends, big missiles, small missiles, crazy missiles.
Please critique my design for a SIZE 4 Antiship missile: the Snake MK1.
Fairly basic starter techs. I removed passive sensing, because those had such tiny ranges.
Let me know what I've done wrong and what I've done right.
Missile Size: 80 MSP (4 HS) Warhead: 46 Armour: 3 Manoeuvre Rating: 22
Speed: 22500 km/s Endurance: 31 minutes Range: 42.2m km
Active Sensor Strength: 1.155 Resolution: 5000 Maximum Range: 57,750,000 km
Thermal Sensor Strength: 0.33 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 330,000 km
EM Sensor Strength: 0.33 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 330,000 km
Cost Per Missile: 44.365
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 495% 3k km/s 154% 5k km/s 99% 10k km/s 49.5%
Materials Required: 12.25x Tritanium 1.815x Uridium 53.15x Gallicite Fuel x37500
Oh, i guess thats a size 80 missile. 80 MSP, rather than 4 HS. Thought I was piling a lot on there.
Heres my new Striker class missile.
Missile Size: 4 MSP (0.2 HS) Warhead: 5 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 22
Speed: 10500 km/s Endurance: 45 minutes Range: 28.1m km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.84 Resolution: 4000 Maximum Range: 33,600,000 km
Cost Per Missile: 3.09
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 231% 3k km/s 66% 5k km/s 46.2% 10k km/s 23.1%
Materials Required: 1.25x Tritanium 0.84x Uridium 1.65x Gallicite Fuel x1250
Development Cost for Project: 309RP
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Both missiles: The warheads are sub-optimal for armor piercing (optimal numbers are square numbers), as missiles leave triangle-shaped craters in the armor. Anything that's not square has it's actual damage against the armor rounded down to the last square number (e.g with 45 WH missile, you would only make the same triangle damage as a 36 WH missile). The extra points in warhead are only useful for when the armor is pierced. Though most of your missiles will be spend on the armor, not the internals, since when you hit internals they don't really last that long.
The snake's size is also way to high. The sheer size of the missile launchers needed to fire it will take up most of the ship. I'd really cut down on the size of that monster. Also, the Strikers have more bang for the buck (one Snake does 46 WH damage, in comparison 20 Stikers [same overall MSP] do 100 WH damage), making the Snake seem like a waste of resources for just a little more range.
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Both missiles: The warheads are sub-optimal for armor piercing (optimal numbers are square numbers), as missiles leave triangle-shaped craters in the armor. Anything that's not square has it's actual damage against the armor rounded down to the last square number (e.g with 45 WH missile, you would only make the same triangle damage as a 36 WH missile). The extra points in warhead are only useful for when the armor is pierced. Though most of your missiles will be spend on the armor, not the internals, since when you hit internals they don't really last that long.
The extra warhead points aren't lost. It just means the damage to the armour isn't a perfect triangle. For example a 9 point warhead would have a 5-3-1 damage template while an 11 point warhead would have a 6-4-1 template and a 12 point warhead would be 6-4-2, etc. Yes, it true that the ideal ratio of damage to penetration (in terms of the most penetration for the least total damage) is always a square, such as 4, 9, 16, etc. but I have never believed it's that important. For example, the extra width of a ten point warhead (6-3-1) may be the spot where the next missile arrives, effectively giving it more penetration. When you are firing a lot of missiles at a target, it will all work itself out in the end.
Steve
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The extra warhead points aren't lost. It just means the damage to the armour isn't a perfect triangle. For example a 9 point warhead would have a 5-3-1 damage template while an 11 point warhead would have a 6-4-1 template and a 12 point warhead would be 6-4-2, etc. Yes, it true that the ideal ratio of damage to penetration (in terms of the most penetration for the least total damage) is always a square, such as 4, 9, 16, etc. but I have never believed it's that important. For example, the extra width of a ten point warhead (6-3-1) may be the spot where the next missile arrives, effectively giving it more penetration. When you are firing a lot of missiles at a target, it will all work itself out in the end.
Oh really? Huh, never knew that. Looks like the wiki needs changing.
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The snake is too big - in addition to the fine points by Tarran on the size of the launcher (80 HS - 4000 tons - as big as my covettes!) it will have an appalling reload rate at normal size (1 shot every 40 minutes at basic tech - even at the reload 5 level that means 8 minutes between shots). If you use reduced size launchers this gets even worse. And its expensive - you wont be able to build a lot of these unless your pop or tech is quite high
I'd only have 1 onboard sensor.
For both missiles, the Active sensor resolution size is way too high (its looking for ships of 250 000 tons plus on the snake, 200,000 tons for the Striker) - I'd chose something like res 100 or 200 (ie looking for 5000 - 10000 ton ships). Remember you dont need to provide on-board guidance for the whole range of the missile, just sufficient for it to pick up a new target if it loses the old one or the guiding ship once it reaches the point where it thought its target was going to be. I usually have this at around 2x the distance that the missile will travel in a single 5 sec pulse (or 10x the speed) eg for the striker about 100,000km. I never try to put actives sized for smaller vessels or gunboats/fighters as youve seen its too hard to make something that will pick these up at any reasonable range
Given the speeds, they're both also an easy mark for cheap AMM interception at even quite low tech levels.
If you drop the sensors a bit on the Striker, and put it into engine, it could probably make a fair anti Gunboat/light unit missile ie for use against lightly armoured vessels. Against larger units with armour greater than 5 then it will really only be sandblasting its way in - usefull in large numbers but not going to give HMS Hood type kills
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Oh really? Huh, never knew that. Looks like the wiki needs changing.
Yes, you are right. I don't have permission to alter the wiki though :). It's not something to which I have contributed.
Steve
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Interesting information from all. Yes, the Snake is uh, yeah I was just putting numbers in. Interesting that I don't need active guidance throughout the whole range.
My technology levels are fairly low. What kind of speeds and warheads sizes are typical of folks building early-game PDC-class defense missile bases and antiship defenses?
I'm going to assume that for an AMM series one would want very high agility, very high speed, but small warhead size.
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Yes, you are right. I don't have permission to alter the wiki though :). It's not something to which I have contributed.
Steve
The creator of Aurora can't edit the wiki?! GASP.
Anyway, just wondering, would a size 13 WH missile be 6-4-2-1 squares of damage, or 7-4-2?
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Yes, you are right. I don't have permission to alter the wiki though :). It's not something to which I have contributed.
Steve
A security method did not quite work as advertised. I've removed it so edits should be able to occur again.
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I'm going to assume that for an AMM series one would want very high agility, very high speed, but small warhead size.
For anti-missiles it's all about "chance to hit". I start off with warhead strength of 1, then add engine power and fuel to get the range I want (currently using 2.5m km.) From there I add agility and remove engine power to get the best chance to hit I can. The calculation for chance to hit is explained at the top right of the missile design window.
To increase the manoeuvre rating (MR), agility has to go over a threshold. For a size 1 missile, that threshold is at every x.5 of agility value. So, 0.5 adds 1 MR, 1.5 adds 2, ...
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Anyway, just wondering, would a size 13 WH missile be 6-4-2-1 squares of damage, or 7-4-2?
7-4-2. You can't have a vertical "wall" on either side that's 2 or more steps high. To put it another way, you need 3 more points at level N than level N+1 before another point goes to level N+1.
Note that beam weapons have a different template that's typically narrower and deeper.
John
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Missile Size: 4 MSP (0.2 HS) Warhead: 5 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 22
Speed: 10500 km/s Endurance: 45 minutes Range: 28.1m km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.84 Resolution: 4000 Maximum Range: 33,600,000 km
Cost Per Missile: 3.09
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 231% 3k km/s 66% 5k km/s 46.2% 10k km/s 23.1%
Materials Required: 1.25x Tritanium 0.84x Uridium 1.65x Gallicite Fuel x1250
Development Cost for Project: 309RP
The resolution on your sensors is extremely high. You won't be able to see anything until it's super close with that high resolution. I'd drop the active sensor altogether and instead just stick more warhead and/or engine on.
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So I could in effect pull the sensors off the missle entirely, letting the fire control handle it?
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So I could in effect pull the sensors off the missle entirely, letting the fire control handle it?
Yes, as long as you keep the fire control within range of the target.
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Curious! Well, I hope to install redesigned systems and start putting ships out with new missile and anti missile hardware sometime tonight.
Cheers
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So I could in effect pull the sensors off the missle entirely, letting the fire control handle it?
Yes, in Aurora missiles don't usually have onboard sensors as they rely on shipboard fire control. There are two advantages to having sensors on your missiles though. A shipboard fire control cannot change the target of a missile in flight. Therefore if the target of the missile is destroyed before the missile arrives, the missile will self-destruct; unless it has onboard sensors in which case they will start searching for a new target, Also if a ship is destroyed, any missiles under guidance from its fire control systems will self-destruct; unless they have onboard sensors in which case they will start searching for a target.
The only time you actually need sensors on a missile is if it is a sub-munition in a captor mine. When a captor mine is activated, it will send its missiles to the location of the detected target but the missiles themselves have to locate that target.
Steve
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Curious! Well, I hope to install redesigned systems and start putting ships out with new missile and anti missile hardware sometime tonight.
This is actually the way that Semi-Active Radar Homing (SARH) missiles such as Sparrow and most SAMs work. Only recently (AMRAAM, maybe Phoenix, most ASMs such as Harpoon or Tomahawk) has active terminal guidance been put onto missiles.
John
PS - Ok, so maybe Harpoon isn't "recent" - I guess I'm dating myself :)
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Ok here we go.
Heres what I'm looking at for my new antiship missile. These are my very basic force ships, to say nothing of designed fleets. I've got two nonhostile stars nearby with a total of 4 prime colony locations, so I just need something to keep the people happy and to put a few guns in the air.
First, the Resolve, Missile Corvette. It seems to me I make my ships too heavy. Is this too big?
Resolve class Corvette 6,050 tons 669 Crew 895 BP TCS 121 TH 420 EM 60
3471 km/s Armour 5-29 Shields 2-400 Sensors 12/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 2 PPV 42
Annual Failure Rate: 146% IFR: 2% Maint Capacity 185 MSP Max Repair 58 MSP Est Time: 1.59 Years
Magazine 96
Ion Engine E8 (7) Power 60 Fuel Use 80% Signature 60 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres Range 37.2 billion km (124 days at full power)
Gamma R400/16 Shields (1) Total Fuel Cost 16 Litres per day
Single 10cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x1) Range 90,000km TS: 15000 km/s Power 3-3 RM 3 ROF 5 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Fire Control S04 96-3000 (1) Max Range: 192,000 km TS: 3000 km/s 95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1) Total Power Output 9 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Size 4 Missile Launcher (8) Missile Size 4 Rate of Fire 40
Missile Fire Control FC33-R20 (1) Range 33.8m km Resolution 20
Grav Sensor mk 1 (1) GPS 2100 Range 12.6m km Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor MR30-R75 (1) GPS 4332 Range 30.0m km Resolution 75
Thermal Sensor TH2-12 (1) Sensitivity 12 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 12m km
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Here are my missiles. Basic Antiship size 4 missile, low tech.
Missile Size: 4 MSP (0.2 HS) Warhead: 9 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 22
Speed: 15000 km/s Endurance: 31 minutes Range: 28.1m km
Cost Per Missile: 3.55
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 330% 3k km/s 110% 5k km/s 66% 10k km/s 33%
Materials Required: 2.25x Tritanium 1.95x Gallicite Fuel x1250
Development Cost for Project: 355RP
And finally, a really cheezy missile defence base I slapped together to silence the populace.
Foxhole Missile Defense class Missile Defence Base 6,200 tons 824 Crew 955.4 BP TCS 124 TH 0 EM 0
Armour 9-30 Sensors 12/58 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 74
Magazine 192
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres Range N/A
Single 10cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x1) Range 48,000km TS: 15000 km/s Power 3-3 RM 3 ROF 5 3 3 3 2 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 24-12000 (1) Max Range: 48,000 km TS: 12000 km/s 79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (2) Total Power Output 18 Armour 0 Exp 5%
PDC Size 4 Missile Launcher (16) Missile Size 4 Rate of Fire 20
Missile Fire Control FC33-R20 (2) Range 33.8m km Resolution 20
Active Search Sensor MR30-R75 (1) GPS 4332 Range 30.0m km Resolution 75
Thermal Sensor TH2-12 (1) Sensitivity 12 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 12m km
This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 3 sections
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I'd drop the fuel on the PDC, and increase the sensor range.
As for "too big" it all comes down to what you think is the proper size. For me, 6k tons is a destroyer. For certain others in Italy, 6k tons is a FAC ;)
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For me, 6k tons is a destroyer. For certain others in Italy, 6k tons is a FAC ;)
ROFL!!!
Btw, has anyone heard from our Italian friend lately?
John
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ROFL!!!
Btw, has anyone heard from our Italian friend lately?
John
His profile says he hasn't been to the forum since 19 Feb. I guess he's engrossed with those 1Million tonne monsters he favours ;D
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Looking at the corvette
1) Why is the laser in a turret? the turret and Firecontrl both have lower tracking speeds than the ships speed so there is no advantage gained by the turret.
2) 2 points of shields are not going to do anything
3) you only have 3 salvos for each launcher ideally you want more
4) Your search sensors are very short ranged but that could be because they have low tech
5) The thermal sensor is sufficiently poor I would not fit it and instead have a bigger active sensor
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Re the PDC:
Drop the lasers - they dont work in atmophere.
Dont bother with the passives - use a Deep Space Tracking station assigned to the colony
Your MFC is designed to target FACs (res 20) at 30mKm but your search sensor tracks smallish ships at that range - unless you have another search sensor on another unit, you wont see the FACs untill they're almost on top of you.
What I tend to do is have a number of different bases, all quite small, to provide overall capability eg:
1-3 of these
Praetor class Planetary Surveillance Base 2,500 tons 154 Crew 1511.6 BP TCS 50 TH 0 EM 0
Armour 17-16 Sensors 1/540 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 0
Flag Bridge Hangar Deck Capacity 250 tons
Fuel Capacity 60,000 Litres Range N/A
ShipDet LG Mk2 594m (1) GPS 54000 Range 594.0m km Resolution 100
MissDet Large Mk2 8232k (1) GPS 540 Range 75.6m km Resolution 1
Strike Group
1x Courier Jump Scout Speed: 20789 km/s Size: 3.8
This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 1 sections
plus 3-6 of missile defenders
Auxillia - A class Planetary Defence Centre 5,000 tons 480 Crew 1184.4 BP TCS 100 TH 0 EM 0
Armour 8-26 Sensors 1/0 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 30
Magazine 782
PDC Defensor Launcher (30) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
MissKill LG 8.2m (3) Range 75.6m km Resolution 1
Dart Mk2 SR AMM (791) Speed: 53,200 km/s End: 2.8m Range: 9m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 744 / 446 / 223
ECCM-2 (3) Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 2 sections
and then a dozen or so of these
Legion - A class Planetary Defence Centre 5,000 tons 582 Crew 774.72 BP TCS 100 TH 0 EM 0
Armour 6-26 Sensors 1/0 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 48
Magazine 768
PDC Capital Launcher (2) Missile Size 24 Rate of Fire 75
ShipKill MD Mk2 198m (1) Range 198.0m km Resolution 100
Dominator Mk2 SHM (32) Speed: 38,500 km/s End: 78m Range: 180.2m km WH: 25 Size: 24 TH: 179 / 107 / 53
ECCM-2 (1) Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 2 sections
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Thank you so much for all the assistance in ship design. Things like sensor ranges and missile ranges aren't immediatly clear
Sadly the empire crumbled, not because of military invasion or economic collapse, but because of some sort of stack overflow fault caused a break in the space time continuum.
I have now restarted, taking the title GOD EMPEROR OF MAN and the imperium is beginning to flourish under me. I chose my own starting techs this time to get my terraforming and various economic factors up and running before embarking on military research. I'll post some updated ship designs as I develop them!
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OK I never actually needed any missiles, but as I get ready to truly push into the great beyond, I'll need something.
So its time to take the hurting to the precursors. First, the AMM suite: from early comments in this thread, chance to hit is key, and long-range is not necessarily important. So here we go:
Missile Size: 1 MSP (0.05 HS) Warhead: 1 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 32
Speed: 45000 km/s Endurance: 1 minutes Range: 3.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 1.55
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 1440% 3k km/s 480% 5k km/s 288% 10k km/s 144%
Materials Required: 0.25x Tritanium 1.044x Gallicite Fuel x25
Now lets talk antiship missiles. Size 6 for my first iteration, mostly because I felt the yield and speed of the size 4 version were insufficient. Since these are big one, I added a hair of armor (0.2 MSP). Don't have practical information about whether that will be valuable or not.
Missile Size: 6 MSP (0.3 HS) Warhead: 4 Armour: 0.2 Manoeuvre Rating: 17
Speed: 55000 km/s Endurance: 15 minutes Range: 50.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 6.725
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 935% 3k km/s 306% 5k km/s 187% 10k km/s 93.5%
Materials Required: 1.05x Tritanium 6.37x Gallicite Fuel x2500
Development Cost for Project: 672RPCheers
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Now lets talk antiship missiles. Size 6 for my first iteration, mostly because I felt the yield and speed of the size 4 version were insufficient. Since these are big one, I added a hair of armor (0.2 MSP). Don't have practical information about whether that will be valuable or not.
Cheers
The formula for determing if missile armour works is (damage/(damage+armour) The percent chance that the damage carries through. For .2 armour this translates as 1/1.2 or about 83% of the time a 1 point damage will carry through and destroy the missile. So for this it is probably not worth it. On a size six missile I would either put that .2 into missile ecm (a size 1 msp ecm will give you full value. a .2msp would be 20% of full). For example if you have reasearched missile ecm 2 then it will have a 4% reduction. Higher ecm levels will obviously be better here. A sensor would probably be more usefull. If you want the missile to home in on anything then put in a thermal sensor. If you would prefer it only home in on larger ships then put in a high res sensor (res 200) which will also give it a decent range. Using tech that costs 8000rp to get I got a range of 420,000 km with res 200, and 210,000 km range with a res 100. This is far enough for the missile to have decent terminal guidance. If your fire control is destroyed it will still keep going. If the first target is destroyed it will go after another target that it sees.
Brian
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So its time to take the hurting to the precursors. First, the AMM suite: from early comments in this thread, chance to hit is key, and long-range is not necessarily important. So here we go:
Missile Size: 1 MSP (0.05 HS) Warhead: 1 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 32
Speed: 45000 km/s Endurance: 1 minutes Range: 3.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 1.55
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 1440% 3k km/s 480% 5k km/s 288% 10k km/s 144%
Materials Required: 0.25x Tritanium 1.044x Gallicite Fuel x25
Looks solid. The only thing I might mention is that hit is still the most important, but that speed is also important. The faster the AMM, the sooner it reaches the target, giving you more time for followup salvos as needed. Just something to consider for future missiles, 45k is fine. 3m range is fine.
Now lets talk antiship missiles. Size 6 for my first iteration, mostly because I felt the yield and speed of the size 4 version were insufficient. Since these are big one, I added a hair of armor (0. 2 MSP). Don't have practical information about whether that will be valuable or not.
Missile Size: 6 MSP (0.3 HS) Warhead: 4 Armour: 0.2 Manoeuvre Rating: 17
Speed: 55000 km/s Endurance: 15 minutes Range: 50.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 6.725
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 935% 3k km/s 306% 5k km/s 187% 10k km/s 93.5%
Materials Required: 1.05x Tritanium 6.37x Gallicite Fuel x2500
The thing I'd change is the speed. Chop it to extend the range. With 50mkm range, you are going to be pounded on by the advanced NPRs/Precursors. I tried a missile like this, and the fleet had to advance through 40mkm underfire while unable to fight back. Its a lot nicer when its the other way around.
My second generation design is a two stage size 5 missile designed to go 136mkm, then the two sprint mode submunitions separate, total damage 7. The bus has lousy chances to hit (slow speed&long range), but the submunitions (high speed&short range) have no problems hitting. Its almost funny, the submunitions tend to hammer the NPR to the point it slows down enough its an easy target for the bus. Having three separate targets per launch tends to play hell with point defense. Even the times when the NPR had two cruisers throwing out 162 AMM per salvo.
The Bus:
Missile Size: 5 MSP (0.25 HS) Warhead: 1 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 18000 km/s Endurance: 127 minutes Range: 136.8m km
Cost Per Missile: 4.3282
Second Stage: g1 SBM S1 R1.3mkm W3 AS1.5mkm x2
Second Stage Separation Range: 150,000 km
Overall Endurance: 2 hours Overall Range: 138.1m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 180% 3k km/s 60% 5k km/s 36% 10k km/s 18%
Materials Required: 1.75x Tritanium 0.0316x Uridium 1.8166x Gallicite Fuel x4750
The Submunition:
Missile Size: 1 MSP (0.05 HS) Warhead: 3 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 18
Speed: 28000 km/s Endurance: 1 minutes Range: 1.8m km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.0158 Resolution: 10 Maximum Range: 1,580 km
Cost Per Missile: 1.4325
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 504% 3k km/s 162% 5k km/s 100.8% 10k km/s 50.4%
Materials Required: 0.75x Tritanium 0.0158x Uridium 0.4167x Gallicite Fuel x12.5
These are the missile I've been using for too long, gonna be replacing them once I've finished researching the next level of drives. They have been effective enough I haven't felt the need to upgrade them, but I've gotten advances in speed, warhead strength, sensors, armor, . . . hell, in everything, at least one or two levels, so its time to do some redesigns. Maybe I can stop relying on a fleet doctrine of "quantity has a quality all of its own".
Oh, and assume the NPRs have ECM, there is a reason the S5 missile goes 130+mkm and the FC used with it has a 200mkm res 100 lockon.