Aurora 4x
New Players => The Academy => Topic started by: wodin on March 30, 2011, 05:08:54 PM
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Just checking I'm doing this right...do you need a magazine for each missile launcher? I.e if I have 20 launchers i then need twenty magazines...
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No, you don't. Magazines add to the ship's central missile storage, from which any launcher can draw.
There's something I've been wondering, however...
What's the difference, for example, between having a single 120-capacity magazine and having ten 12-capacity ones? Is the latter more expensive and/or space-consuming? The upside would be compartmentalizing your ordnance storage, meaning individual magazines could take damage separately without causing the ejection/destruction of a substantial part of your missile supply on a catastrophic hit.
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It depends how you build them largerer magazines can be more efficient in space so a 20 HS magazine can have 1 HTK in which case it will hold more missiles than 20 size 1 1 htk magazines of the same tech.
I usually design an magazine of 2 or 3 HS with 1 htk and use multiples of them so I dont have lots og magazine designs to worry about
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The main difference between 1 big magazine and several smaller ones is the compartmentalization. The more hits to kill you are working with the less missiles you will have on board for the same hull space. My personal favorite is a 5hs magazine with a htk of 2. This helps against smaller hits that just barely penetrate armour from having a garanteed destruction (1 point vs 2 htk = 50% kill rate). It also helps against mesons the same way. In comparison a 20hs 1 htk could probably squeeze in an extra 3-4 missiles, but is it worth it given that 1 hit will take out a huge chunk of your ammo, and if you do not eject it will probably destroy your ship completely. It is definitly a style choice more than anything else.
Brian
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It depends how you build them largerer magazines can be more efficient in space so a 20 HS magazine can have 1 HTK in which case it will hold more missiles than 20 size 1 1 htk magazines of the same tech.
Ummm I just checked this in the game, and it does not seem to be the case.
I'm at feed efficiency of 90%, so a size-1, 1HTK magazine has a capacity of 18 (20*90%). A size-20, 1HTK magazine has a capacity of 360, which is 20x the size-1 capacity. (It also has a research cost of 1000, which is 20x the research cost of the size-1 magazine.) The material cost is also 20x larger. The reason that this scaling works is that 1HTK essentially means "unarmored".
This means that, with the current rules, size-1, 1HTK magazines are MUCH superior to larger 1HTK magazines - 20 size-1s have 20x the HTK of 1 size-20. I think this is actually a bug which could be fixed in 2 ways:
1) Make the choice be HTK/HS, so that a size-20, 1HTK/HS magazine had a HTK of 20. This would make the size decision neutral.
2) Subtract 1 from the HTK scaling. What are currently 1HTK magazines would become 0HTK (like small fuel tanks, they're destroyed but don't absorb the hit). This means that unarmored magazines would all have 0 HTK, and the scaling works again.
Note that once you put armor on the magazines (raise the HTK above 1), the economies of scale kick in - it's cheaper to armor a big magazine than a small one, due to the lower surface/volume ratio.
John
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Oh damn....I've been giving a magazine for every launcher!!!!
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multiple smaller magazines really come into their own when you start taking hits - I had 2 ships - one was a rebuild of the other design - it had 2 smaller magazines because I could now get the same missiles in 2 rather than 1 bigger magazine on the ship due to engine tech freeing up space - both ships got hit by an 8 damage missile - ship one took 1 hit on its magazine - ship 2 took 1 hit on a magazine - ship 1 had 1 fire control and 3 launchers intact after damage but no missiles - ship 2 had 1 fire control and only 2 launchers left but 1 of the 2 magazines giving it 30 odd missile sit could fire with...
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As Brian said, compartmentalization. It does increase your 'hits to kill', but the real benefit is reduced size explosions when they are hit. The downside is increased cost per ship.
My design philosophy is to design a magazine that supports the salvo count I want a launcher to have. When you add a launcher you add a magazine. Counter Missile magazines usually have storage for 75 missiles at size 1, anti-ship missile magazines usually have space for 20-30 size 4-6 missiles.
Magazines for colliers I do differently. Those I make much larger since they are not intended to be in the direct fighting.
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As Brian said, compartmentalization. It does increase your 'hits to kill', but the real benefit is reduced size explosions when they are hit. The downside is increased cost per ship.
My design philosophy is to design a magazine that supports the salvo count I want a launcher to have. When you add a launcher you add a magazine. Counter Missile magazines usually have storage for 75 missiles at size 1, anti-ship missile magazines usually have space for 20-30 size 4-6 missiles.
Magazines for colliers I do differently. Those I make much larger since they are not intended to be in the direct fighting.
Are you armoring your magazines? Because if not, then the cost of 20 size-1 1HTK magazines appears to be identical to the cost of 1 size-20 1HTK magazine. In other words there is no cost savings. Again, if you're armoring up, the story's different.
[pause while playing with magazine design screen]
Ok, even with armor, it seems like size-1 is MUCH better to achieve the same HTK. First, the selector only goes up to 10HTK. So if you're at size 10 or more, it's impossible to get more total HTK than using an equivalent capacity of size-1. Second, the capacity for the same total HTK is smaller for a big magazine (and hence the cost is larger). I just compared 5 size-1 HTK2 (w/laminate composite armor, efficiency 90%) to 1 size-5 HTK10. A single size-1 holds 17 points and costs 1.61, so 5 of them hold 85 points and cost 8.05. The size 5 holds 70 points and costs 15.79. The size-1 magazines are superior in all respects.
I've decided to log this as a bug....
John
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But doesn't the ammo explode when the magazine is killed? Unarmored magazines are a secondary explosion waiting to happen.
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The higher the HTK of the magazine the less likely it is to be breached and so the less likely it is to suffer a secondary explosion. so 5 2HTK magazines does not equal 1 10HTK magazine. The 5 magazines are 5 times more likely to get hit in the first place and then any point of damage has a 50% chance of penetrating and damaging the missiles, causing a secondary explosion. With the 10HTK magazine, it only has 1 entry on the damage table so you're less likely to get hit and then when it does, there is only a 10% chance that that single point of damage is going to penetrate.
And if you take bigger hits, the higher HTK means they are less likely to automatically overcome the HTK, since a 2 point hit will go through the 2HTK magazine every time but only penetrate the 10HTK mag 20% of the time.
--Mav
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Are you armoring your magazines? Because if not, then the cost of 20 size-1 1HTK magazines appears to be identical to the cost of 1 size-20 1HTK magazine. In other words there is no cost savings. Again, if you're armoring up, the story's different.
[pause while playing with magazine design screen]
Ok, even with armor, it seems like size-1 is MUCH better to achieve the same HTK. First, the selector only goes up to 10HTK. So if you're at size 10 or more, it's impossible to get more total HTK than using an equivalent capacity of size-1. Second, the capacity for the same total HTK is smaller for a big magazine (and hence the cost is larger). I just compared 5 size-1 HTK2 (w/laminate composite armor, efficiency 90%) to 1 size-5 HTK10. A single size-1 holds 17 points and costs 1.61, so 5 of them hold 85 points and cost 8.05. The size 5 holds 70 points and costs 15.79. The size-1 magazines are superior in all respects.
I've decided to log this as a bug....
John
To be truthful I haven't compared the costs after the last changes to magazines. Add to that I'm working from memory since I haven't had time to play since mid February (employed again yay!!)
But the part about reduced secondaries should still hold true.
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. With the 10HTK magazine, it only has 1 entry on the damage table so you're less likely to get hit and then when it does, there is only a 10% chance that that single point of damage is going to penetrate.
And if you take bigger hits, the higher HTK means they are less likely to automatically overcome the HTK, since a 2 point hit will go through the 2HTK magazine every time but only penetrate the 10HTK mag 20% of the time.
--Mav
Actually the entry in the damage control table is based on the total size of the item. So 10 1hs magazines are just as likely to recieve a hit as 1 10hs magazine is if everything else is the same on the ship. The chance of damaging the magazine is obviously different depending on the htk and the weapon hitting it. The damage that is done is whatever damage is left after penetrating armour and other internals already done. Ie a 20 point warhead that had 15 points get through armour is going to auto destroy that 1 size 10magazine with a htk 10, and still have 5 more points of damage to apply to the next system. In addition the big magazine, if it has a secondary explosion is going to do a lot more damage than any single 1 hs magazine would.
Brian
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Note that while cost and hullspace scale linear, personnel needed does not - larger magazines need less personnel than smaller magazines for the same amount of magazine space. More personnel means more hullspace needed for life support.
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Note that while cost and hullspace scale linear, personnel needed does not - larger magazines need less personnel than smaller magazines for the same amount of magazine space. More personnel means more hullspace needed for life support.
I just looked at the design window, and the personnel scaling actually is linear - it's just that it's 1.5 crew/HS, which rounds up to the next nearest integer. So you're right, you'd pay 20 crew for 10 size-1 magazines, rather than 15 crew for 1 size-10, i.e. an extra 0.5 crew/HS. Since 1 HS of crew quarters supports 250 crew, this translates into a tax of .002 HS per (size-1) magazine, i.e. a ~0.2% efficiency hit. To put it a different way, you'd have to pay for an extra small crew quarters (50 crew, 0.2 HS) in for every 100 size-1 magazines.
So yes, this is a case where size-1 does worse, but the effect is negligible. And the effect goes away completely if you use size-2 magazines (3 crew each).
John
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Can a secondary explosion cause a tertiary explosion? If yes, small magazine may be more dangerous, as having one take a hit means it'll get destroyed, and likely destroy more magazine, that can destroy even more magazines...
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Can a secondary explosion cause a tertiary explosion? If yes, small magazine may be more dangerous, as having one take a hit means it'll get destroyed, and likely destroy more magazine, that can destroy even more magazines...
It depends on what is damaged by the additional damage from the secondary explosion. The strength of the secondary is determined from the size of the magazine, I'm not sure if Steve has the code checking for ammo usage with calculating the strength.
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Can a secondary explosion cause a tertiary explosion? If yes, small magazine may be more dangerous, as having one take a hit means it'll get destroyed, and likely destroy more magazine, that can destroy even more magazines...
As far as I know, yes it can create a tertiary explosion. Even so, on average there will be no difference (assuming they're both HTK1 and you've got the same capacity in both cases) in the damage done by tertiaries in the same set of magazines. It all comes back to the fact that both the large and small magazines are HTK1. Let's say we're comparing 10 size-1 magazines to 1 size-10 (both HTK1), and let's say the secondary explosion strengths are 10pts and 100pts respectively. If a small magazine is hit and explodes, then it's the same thing as the ship taking a new strength 10 hit from a bad guy weapon in a spot with no armor (i.e. all interior). The ship still has 9 magazines left - even if all of them are hit and explode (a VERY low probably - if explosion probability is 0.1, then you've only got a 10^-9 chance of all 9 blowing up) you'll only generate an additional 90 points of secondary damage, for a total of 100 points of secondary damage. If a size-10 magazine is hit and explodes, you take that 100 points of damage immediately, and there aren't any extra magazines to soak up hits with their HTK. Note that for an explosion chance of 0.1, one of the size-1's exploding will do on average 1 point of damage (10pts * 0.1 chance), while the size-10 does 10 points of damage. I just realized this is interesting - since both are 1HTK, the size-1 is effectively 0HTK on average (it absorbs 1 hit, but on average will blow up doing a hit of secondary damage) and the size-9 is negative 9HTK (it absorbs one hit generates 10 in secondaries). It just occurred to me that magazine clusters with negative effective HTK are like atomic bombs - they're susceptible to a chain reaction that blows all the magazines up.
John
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Well, except if you campare a size 1, HTK 1 with a size 10, HTK 10.
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Imo its hard to beat a size 1 magazine. It is incredibly hard for a size 1 magazine to explode and take out the entire ship. Where as the bigger the magazine gets the easier and easier it gets and even with armor it can still happen from just one point of damage. The only real problem is Mesons but if they are close enough to use Mesons then your missile armed ship is probably already dead so why waste space on armor.
Note this is just for magazines on combat ships. I don't know how I would handle colliers if I were to design a magazine just for them.