Aurora 4x
New Players => The Academy => Topic started by: ollobrains on February 18, 2012, 04:19:09 AM
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Any idea how i can build up the protection figures on mars its gone over 10 million citizens and now is unrest due to lack of protection.
Ground units seem to make no difference.
Something im missing ?
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Ground units just keep the people from rioting (reduce unrest). Your colonists want PDCs or warships that protect them from real or imagined alien threats, so to remove the _reason_ for their unrest, build a fleet or a couple of PDCs and they will be happy again.
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next dumb questions is it possible to move PDCs say from earth to mars either through haulers or something with a tractor beam as mars is mostly a wealth colony and lacks minerals.
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You can prebuild PDCs, transport the parts to where you want them and assemble them there. This takes some construction capability (a few construction factories or a few engineering brigades) as well as a small amount of minerals (ferry them to Mars with the same transports, that carry the parts).
Once build/assembled, PDCs can no longer be moved (imagine Cheyenne Mountain syle of bases here - deep, deep under ground)
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Seems to be the only way of dealing with that issue perhaps the addition to game of Ground units that can permanently suppress this feedback loop maybe
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It is impossible to limit a colony to, let's say, 5 million people (or any other number), right? That would be a great way to stop unrest messages (or to roleplay a little).
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You can only order civilians to stop immigrating to a colony once it reaches 25 million pop. At that point you can limit it to natural growth by changing it to "Stable" in the civ tab.
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Or you can set all the sources of colonists to "stable", and that will stop them emigrating (though it will also stop them emigrating to any of your other colonies).
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I've tried that, but stopping emigration that way also seems to stop infraestructure trading, and when natural growth set your population over your colony's capacity you get unrest (and a negative growth) until your population gets again under the limit. . . and again you have a natural growth which will lead your population over your colony's capacity again :P
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They will slowly produce infrastructure on their own, which might help. Of course, you can manually produce and dump a ton of Infrastructure there.
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I've tried that, but stopping emigration that way also seems to stop infraestructure trading, and when natural growth set your population over your colony's capacity you get unrest (and a negative growth) until your population gets again under the limit. . . and again you have a natural growth which will lead your population over your colony's capacity again :P
You can set all Source colonies to Stable, and keep your Destination colony as so. It will still require infrastructure imports while not receiving colonists.
Also, you can manipulate your civvies by making obselete all cryogenic transports, the amount of colonists sent will be lessened compared to infrastructure traded, since all the new ships built will be liners or freighters.
Ah, and luxury liners will send colonists anywhere (source, destination or stable), as long as there's a source to pick them from. Great profit source for you and your civvies.
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heres another idea make it so that while colonies are a source for destination they dont demand protection
Raise the 10 million limit up to 25 million before they demand protection, at that point obviously then missile orbital bases or some other form of protection will be required. Just my suggestion for rebalancing some of the game elements
Or remove the costs or adjust the mineral costs for putting assembled together prebuilt PDCs or perhaps require for reassembling PDCs a population reduction of say half a million per one built. Because basically its just the modules being hauled to destination and someone at the other end putting them together. there shouldnt be any mineral requirements to rearrange a prebuilt machine.
The other option is a prebuilt PDC if u have enough cargo capacity say 500,000 tonnes just pick up and drop em into place. Then some construction points only to "cement" it into place
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You can set all Source colonies to Stable, and keep your Destination colony as so. It will still require infrastructure imports while not receiving colonists.
Ok, now I understand what you guys where saying. Never tried that but seems pretty logical and less dictatorial than banning people from having children at their colonies :P
Thanks!
Btw, about the protection problem, a PDC will add a lot of protection to a colony, but you can also build a FAC squadron to orbit Mars and keep adding a unit or two occasionally. That's what I do when my empire is still small and I don't have the tech or manpower to build PDCs with Engineer Brigades. At some point, your colony will able to produce PDCs on its own.
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dont FACs chew up fuel though or is that what extended orbits are for
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They consume a lot of fuel while traveling, but AFAIK they don't consume anything at all when they don't move.
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another question im ordering cilivan terraforming units built on earth to be shifted to mars they dont show up after moved only the state built and military shifted ones do any pointers ?
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I'm a little unclear with what you are doing here.
Civilian Terraforming Units built on earth
moved to mars
don't show up
state built+military moved
do show up
All terraforming units are civilian. I assume you are constructing terraforming facilities, and then ordering them moved. Are you using civilian movement orders to move them? Or are you picking them up with your own freighters? You aren't building Ship Components by mistake are you?
Deets. Need them
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Terraformers are big and require movement of multiple sections to equal a whole unit. You may have only transferred half of one so far.
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Ok my bad ive setup colonies got the terraforming technology in 5.6 2 options i can build terraforming modules and moving them myself ( these are fine and are showing up)
Civvy-industrial screen
Earth civvy supply 1 terraforming unit
Mars demand 1 terraforming unit
Civilian FT moves the modules ( actually i tried two also)
Units are built on earth and moved by the civvy FT after teh civvies build em and they dont show on mars whereas if i build them myself and move them myself instead of outsourcing they do bug maybe
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Someone with more experience on this might need to chime in: is it possible that the civilians are transferring only 1 segment of the terraformer? Try creating a contract to move 10 of them (I don't remember how many sections a terraformer is, but it is on the wiki). To me it seems entirely possible that the contract for 1 terraformer is for one trip of terraformer parts and not for the entire installation.
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Someone with more experience on this might need to chime in: is it possible that the civilians are transferring only 1 segment of the terraformer? Try creating a contract to move 10 of them (I don't remember how many sections a terraformer is, but it is on the wiki). To me it seems entirely possible that the contract for 1 terraformer is for one trip of terraformer parts and not for the entire installation.
Nope. A contract for 1 terraformer is the full unit, for a total of 250k tons of cargo. With regular 25k tons cargo freighters, it's 10 trips. Otherwise the "one trip of terraformer parts" would depend on freighter design.
If part of a terraformer is moved, even by civilians, it will show in the colony summary like "Terraforming installations : 0.55".
Are the civ freighters doing anything? If you have other contracts already up, they might be doing those first. Like sending automines to some faraway comet, taking 5 years travel time...
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Um, I am not aware that civillians will build your terraformers. You have to build them yourself.
You _can_ use civillians to _move_ the terraformers you have build via contract, however and after they are done, the terraformers should show up on mars.
Just to make sure, we _are_ talking about "Terraforming Installations", not about Terraforming Modules. Installations are the planetary Terraformers, while Modules are the things, that make a ship a Terraforming Ship and will NOT show up on the colony summary, except for the Population and Production screen, Idustry Tab, Stockpile Tab.
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It should be noted that the civilian contracts screen is basically just subcontracting civilian freighters to move installations you already own, it in no way gives you access to any civilian production capability (which only produces infrastructure and trade goods in the first place).
At least that's my understanding of the mechanisms involved.
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Wrong on a few points peeps
Civlians in 5.6 do build fuel refineries, automated mines check youre civ-ind screen ive done all of those and they show up at destination. - shaitan suggest u try all the installations the civilians can produce ( and yup they were moved in 0.2 pieces by my civilians but i ordered 2 and over a year they all got moved) no other current civlian projects from earth are running.
Fuel refinery worked terraformers were built by civvies, the civvy transports did the supply-demand thing between earth and her colonies it showed up, the automated mine, the infrsturcture, just the terraformer option is there but only works when i build it myself and move it myself. ( the other way having civvies build it - it was then moved and vanished terraforming unit only)
And yes hakweye we are talking about terraforming installations planet to planetside not the modules on the ship
Marthnn yup covered that was only terraforming installations the 2 got built got moved i saw the freighters moving the terraforming installations they offloaded them at destination tried it with mars and manchester VII A.
Ill keep fiddling with it
Ok the installations from the cilvian-Ind status screen on earth are as follows
Automated Mine
Construction
Deep space tracking
Fighter Factory
Fuel refinery
Genetic Mod centre
Infruscturure
Maintence Facility
Mass Driver
Mine
Ordinance Factory
Research Lab
TerraForming Installation
My next test will involve 4 Terraforming installations i am moving to mars and building myself using all my own production LInes
After that another 2 will be ordered to mars using cilivian production and shipping lines through earth supplying 2 terraforming installations and mars demanding 2 and letting the civvies do the rest including hauling
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Ok tried every other class of building and they all got built throught earth supply mars demands contracts and ciilvian transports all automatically all succesfully built and moved the only thing that isnt showing up when it gets to delivered status is the terraforming installations so im gunna log this as a bug in 5.6 thread
They get built they get moved 0.2 at a time ( the civilians were deliverying to mars) after that unlike all the other building types they failed to "show" instead they got lost in some wierd place where from which they never get to terraform my atmospheres
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Do your civilian Transports have at least 5 Cargo holds? (or multiple thereof)
I believe I read, at some point it may not apply to the most recent version, about disappearing bits of installations if the Transport was unable to move the 'standard' installation size.
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Oh no they are moving 1/5 at a time. Interesting thanks for the heads up might have to alter the design. Though for all the other mods it manages to track even if they are large and move in bits, wondering why only the terraforming are affected i added the specific issues to 5.6 bug thread anyway it should be fixed. Ill try it sounds like a short term fix has been applied until maybe 5.61 or whatever comes next
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There are issues with cargo holds that aren't in multiples of 5s so definitely redesign the freighters.
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well redesigned cargo hold to the amounts suggested and the terraforming units still arent being moved. Guess ill wait on steve to tell us what it is
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Wrong on a few points peeps
Civlians in 5.6 do build fuel refineries, automated mines check youre civ-ind screen ive done all of those and they show up at destination. - shaitan suggest u try all the installations the civilians can produce ( and yup they were moved in 0.2 pieces by my civilians but i ordered 2 and over a year they all got moved) no other current civlian projects from earth are running.
You can set up a contract to move all those installations (Automated Mine, ... , Terraforming Installation) by the civillians. This doesn´t mean they will build it for you.
Look at the civvy screen again.
There is the drop-down with the installations, e.g. "Automated Mine"
Below it the "Contract Amount" Supply/Demand. Here you put in how many of those installations you want to be moved to (demand) or from (supply) this colony
If you put in "supply" the civillian will take the specified number of installations from your allready present ones on that colony to fulfill any "demand" within 4 jumps
If you have, for example, 100 Automated Mines on Earth and want to put 10 Automated Mines on Mars, you would open the Earth Civilian/Ind Status screen, select Automated Mines, Contract Amount: 10, Supply, Add Contract.
Then got to the Mars Civillian/Ind Screen, again select Automated Mines, Contract Amount: 10, Demand, Add Contract.
Now your civillan owned freighters would take 10 of your 100 Automines from Earth and drop them off at Mars, leaving you with 90 Automines on Earth.
They will NOT build Automines for you for free!
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Not quite correct based on my understanding hehe
They are meant to draw on youre mineral stockpile case in point infurstcuture
Supply earth 100
Demand mars 100
0 supply earth and magically mars gets more infustreucture so where are these infrucstucure mods coming from ?
In wealth screen youll see civilian production amounts of various goods including construction = i think this is where u can have the civvies build it and ship it.
They dont do it for free they do draw down mineral stockpiles but they do build it
U may want to take another look at how it works i did the same on earth with a deep space scanner the existing level 4 one was untouched earth supply 1 mars demand 1 it got built and moved now i have a level 4 still on earth and a level 1 on mars and minerals subtracted to account for the production
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well redesigned cargo hold to the amounts suggested and the terraforming units still arent being moved. Guess ill wait on steve to tell us what it is
IIRC, Terraforming Installations are size 125000, so they would need 25 cargo holds. If a freighter has only 5 holds, they _should_ be split up beween several freighters, but as the civies only use single-ship taskgroups, this might be the problem.
Note: I am not sure if the size or terraformers was changed lately, but would be worth a try.
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Not quite correct based on my understanding hehe
They are meant to draw on youre mineral stockpile case in point infurstcuture
Supply earth 100
Demand mars 100
0 supply earth and magically mars gets more infustreucture so where are these infrucstucure mods coming from ?
In wealth screen youll see civilian production amounts of various goods including construction = i think this is where u can have the civvies build it and ship it.
They dont do it for free they do draw down mineral stockpiles but they do build it
U may want to take another look at how it works i did the same on earth with a deep space scanner the existing level 4 one was untouched earth supply 1 mars demand 1 it got built and moved now i have a level 4 still on earth and a level 1 on mars and minerals subtracted to account for the production
Ah, but infrastructure is a trade good (look at the Wealth/Trade screen). Only the stuff in the list here gets produced by the civillians for free.
And yes, this stuff realy _is_ for free.
Edit: LOL, posted before reading your post fully.
Construction materials is something different than construction capabilities
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Not quite correct based on my understanding hehe
They are meant to draw on youre mineral stockpile case in point infurstcuture
Supply earth 100
Demand mars 100
0 supply earth and magically mars gets more infustreucture so where are these infrucstucure mods coming from ?
In wealth screen youll see civilian production amounts of various goods including construction = i think this is where u can have the civvies build it and ship it.
They dont do it for free they do draw down mineral stockpiles but they do build it
U may want to take another look at how it works i did the same on earth with a deep space scanner the existing level 4 one was untouched earth supply 1 mars demand 1 it got built and moved now i have a level 4 still on earth and a level 1 on mars and minerals subtracted to account for the production
As mentioned infrastructure is different. They DID NOT fulfill the contract in that case, and won't until you physically build infrastructure on earth. The delivered the excess that the colony naturally produces (that you do not get access to unless the planet producing it uses it) to the other colony. They would have done this regardless of the contract. The other trade goods don't actually do anything. They are just there so your liners can make money, afaik.
If I had to guess what happened with your scanning station, I imagine you might have checked the summary screen after a liner had already picked one (or part of one) up (but not yet delivered it).
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Actually, I have a question that's somewhat off topic, but kind of related: Will Civilians deliver contracts between factions, and if so which faction's liner's handle it? Say one faction on a planet put a supply contract up for 10 automines, and a different faction put a demand contract on their mars colony for 10 automines, would civilians do that? And if so, is it the supplier, the consumer or either's lines that handle it?
Also, would one faction's lines handle the trade goods and/or contracts that are exclusively other faction's? I know they'll transfer trade goods between their own faction and another, but would say, America's civilian liner transfer trade goods between the russian colony on earth and the russian colony on mars? Or a russian contract? With trade rights enabled both ways, of course
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Civilian contracts are race-dependant. Supply contract, demand contract and civilian freighter all needs to be of the same race.
I seem to remember trade goods can be shipped by a civilian freighter of race A between two of race B colonies. But I'm not 100% sure, anyone can confirm?
Edit : also, the race owning the colony that offers the trade goods receive export taxes, while both the civilian shipping line and its parent race receive shipping income/taxes.
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You need to have a trade treaty with that race for that to happen. So it's possible for both Race A and Race B civilian liners to ship trade goods between all of their colonies or that only one of them can "invade" the others markets.
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Hmmm... Is it possible to have two races that yuo have trade treaty with and have your freighters ship goods between them? It may not even be necessary for the other two races to have a trade treaty or even contact between them.
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Hmmm... Is it possible to have two races that yuo have trade treaty with and have your freighters ship goods between them? It may not even be necessary for the other two races to have a trade treaty or even contact between them.
I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. Your civilian shipping lines probably look for possible destinations with the only criteria that it's accessible for them.
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Yeah, it should be possible. In theory, your civilian line should be able to pick-up trade goods from Aliens A and then ship those goods to Aliens B even if the aliens haven't had contact with each other - as long as they both have granted a trade treaty to you.
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depends on size of colony, presense of commercial spaceport and i guess other factors
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Why would those things make a difference?
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once u get to 30-40 systems civlian trade ships seem to hate going to outer colonies theyll happily trade goods between mars and earth if given the chance.
I think a commercial space port might give them a target to trade with and if not maybe it should at some point
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once u get to 30-40 systems civlian trade ships seem to hate going to outer colonies theyll happily trade goods between mars and earth if given the chance.
I think a commercial space port might give them a target to trade with and if not maybe it should at some point
Shorter run = more goods delivered = more profit, that's why they trade the close colonies first I think. If they manage to deliver all the required import for the shorter runs though, they'll probably start making longer runs.
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once u get to 30-40 systems civlian trade ships seem to hate going to outer colonies theyll happily trade goods between mars and earth if given the chance.
I think a commercial space port might give them a target to trade with and if not maybe it should at some point
They are restricted to only looking for available trade destinations within 4 jumps. Same goes with Supply-Demand contracts, they will only deliver to a destination that is within 4 jumps.
This is a hard restriction set by Steve because of the potentionally exponential nature of pathing between systems.
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To me, it would seem logical that this should then be the secondary purpose of building a commercial spaceport. The primary purpose is to increase load and unload speeds for queued civilian ships and the secondary purpose is to be the HQ for new shipping lines launched.
Number of spaceports built on a planet then becomes the number of civilian lines that can be supported. If you have a colony 12 jumps out with viable trade opportunities then build a spaceport and civilian industry will found a line and build ships.
(maybe this is how it works and I am naive)
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To me, it would seem logical that this should then be the secondary purpose of building a commercial spaceport. The primary purpose is to increase load and unload speeds for queued civilian ships and the secondary purpose is to be the HQ for new shipping lines launched.
Number of spaceports built on a planet then becomes the number of civilian lines that can be supported. If you have a colony 12 jumps out with viable trade opportunities then build a spaceport and civilian industry will found a line and build ships.
(maybe this is how it works and I am naive)
This is not how it works.
The civilian industry is both my favorite-- and least favorite-- part of the game. I feel like we need any of 3 big improvements:
a) storable paths, similar to the sector assignment screen, that would shorten the amount of pathing searching a civilian ship would have to do. I feel like civilian spaceport level could increase the "range" in much the same way as sector command level does.
b) setting headquarters for civ industry in the way you describe, which would give ships a home base to return to if lacking jobs. This would prevent stagnation of the fleet, because different fleets could have different homes, so goods could still move around.
c) infrequently-- maybe every 20 construction cycles, for instance-- every stagnant research vessel searches beyond 4 jumps for an available job, and if none is found, path to home base (earth, but would work great if we could assign fleets to headquarters).
Any of these three solutions would, in my opinion, help.
I also want ancient ships to scrap themselves, and I'd love for civilian industry to band into fleets of like ships, perhaps each line could only have 70 independent task groups-- but those groups could hold an infinite number of ships. This would reduce pathing requirements in late games.
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going off the last few ideas a new building installation trade hub. U could build it on worlds once they get a certain amount of production - pre defined wealth or whatever built it would act as a base of operations ( build em every 4-5 jumps) and would give cilivian liners etc a place to hub themselves. Ok got it though spaceports are there to boost loading speeds which speeds up the amount of trade runs the civlian freighters can do
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I also want ancient ships to scrap themselves, and I'd love for civilian industry to band into fleets of like ships, perhaps each line could only have 70 independent task groups-- but those groups could hold an infinite number of ships. This would reduce pathing requirements in late games.
Civilian task groups will be a necessity for newtonian aurora because of the lack of jumpgates. Hopefully it'll bleed over.