Aurora 4x
VB6 Aurora => Bureau of Ship Design => Topic started by: Theodidactus on July 12, 2012, 02:38:39 PM
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Fairly basic question. I realize it's highly variable depending on how many enemies are out there, and how many systems you control, but I want some rough information.
here's my situation: I'm in control of 5 populated systems, and want to occupy perhaps an additional 5 empty ones, all within 2-3 jumps of earth. I want a versatile fleet that can quickly respond to threats posed by the wider galaxy, mostly defensive, but with offensive capability I'm thinking that each populated system gets one starfleet (alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon) and each starfleet has all the following things:
-A primary battlefleet composed of 1 jump capable battle cruiser, 2 missile destroyers, 2 battle line frigates, and 2 missile/fighter defense corvettes
-A carrier fleet composed of 1 carrier, and 3 missile/fighter defense corvettes. The carrier compliment is probably 4 interceptors, 2 bombers, 2 AWACs, and 2 missile ships
-A long-range missile cruiser fleet composed of 1 missile cruiser and 2 cruiser escorts. The cruiser will also sport a suite of system-wide sensor systems.
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My last game, for two populated, and 5 exploited systems I had the 1st Fleet. It consisted of the 101st Cruiser Squadron with 11 ships (4 missile cruisers, 3 cruiser escorts, 2 jump cruisers, a fleet support vessel and a scout). As subordinate formations, the 101st CRURON also claims the 201st, 202nd, and 203rd Destroyer Squadrons, each with 3 escorts, 2 missile destroyers, a jump destroyer and a scout. So 32 military ships. The destroyer squadrons can be detached and sent to picket or determine if an incursion requires the full 1st Fleet.
As tech improves, I was planning on a BC squadron as the top formation, with 3 cruiser squadrons (and attendant DD squads). Then finally a Battleship/Carrier top formation with 3 BC squads and the attendant CA/DD squads.
Needless to say, this is not counting the host of non-military ships (20 survey ships, 5 colony ships, 10 freighters, 2 JCS, 1 salvager, and 5 troop transports).
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In my current solo game were only Sol is populated and exploited (first time i see it so rich in minerals), i have:
2 battle fleets each one consists off:
6 missile destroyers (6k tons, size 1 missile 70% missiles for anti missile and 30% anti ship)
3 laser destroyers (7k tons)
2 sensor/close fire cruisers (10k tons)
A reserve fleet
4 missile destroyers
2 laser destroyers
1 sensor/close fire cruiser
Total : Ships 29
I plan to make 2 Battle cruisers or carriers to buff up the battle fleets, plus jump cruisers.
Auxiliary ships
10 troop transports (1 brigade each)
3 tankers (jump capable)
3 jump gate constructors
15 freighters
5 colony ships
6 terraformers
8 jump point survey ships (jump capable, lost 2 recently and found my first target for the fleet)
16 geology survey ships (jump capable)
The game goes for many years probably more than 40. Sol is so rich that all other systems are poor, so I only need to defend one system. Although I have two spoiler races and 3 NPRs plus a good chance to spawn one and I have explored +25 systems, I found a threat only in the last system I explored. Time to test the fleet.
The number of ships you should have depends on what you need. In most of the games I have at least 2 big fleets, one to attack contested systems and one to stay back as a reserve. I also have smaller fleets to defend remote colonies or jump points. Sometimes I build PDCs for extra defense. The number of ships varies but as I usually go for large ships it is not that large. 1 battle fleet = 8-9
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I'm still learning this game and so I have not ventured to long into either of my games, I also tend to give myself some serious role-playing disadvantages. But anyhow this was the state of my last fleet.
Most worlds were guarded by heavy PDC with missiles and huge strong sensor to help with defence together with FAC crafts stationed in hangar stations at my populated worlds or tended by small maintenance stations at other worlds. I had at the time three systems with some form of populated colonies.
My strategy is to either use small FAC (both defence and offence) and only large ships for space control. My main offensive asset was a heavy cruiser which started at about 32k ton and ended up in slightly below 40k ton. This ship is a true multi-purpose ship and would be expected to be a force on it's own. It had hangar space for 3000 tons worth of scout and strike crafts as well as all the sensors/missiles/guns I needed. If I need more force I just bring another cruiser or more.
I did however contemplate a smaller frigate sized ships to act as an escort for my cruisers. They would have been completely armed with lasers for area defence around the cruisers but I never felt the need for them so I never built them.
My flagship was suppose to be a similar but larger Battle Cruiser (around 65k ton) with slightly more space dedicated as hangars, sort of a battle carrier type of ship. I never got around to build any.
In any case, these cruisers would hold up at two different places with enough maintenance facilities. My main defence were my many small FAC some which had long range and could basically strike anywhere within a system. My long range FAC were usually supported by a command ship which were a corvette sized vessel standardized at around 3.5k tons.
In essence Earth had a huge fleet of 7CA and I had another 2CA in my most remote system where I had a perfect planet to support them. I hardly ever need more than a couple of cruiser at any time, most were just stationed at earth doing fleet training and performing refits as I acquired technology.
Otherwise my defence were different types of FAC vessels which ranged from about 750-100 tones plus recon and command corvettes in the sizes of up to 3.5k tones. The most important part of my defences was not my ships but my sensor network of ground based defence platforms and listening posts, way more cheap than having a huge fleet patrolling your area. At least, that is my opinion so far.
If I had continued with this game I would probably had the need for some assault ships and perhaps some light carrier to protect them or house landing crafts for invasions. I have not done this part yet so I don't really know what to expect when I get to ground combat.
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here's a rough sketch of my fleets and their design, tell me if you think I've covered all my bases. All my ships have a small resolution 1 scanner, I'm not listing fire controls or things like that, just the bare bones. most of this tech is already feasable for my humans, but I haven't added up how big everything will be.
Starfleets alpha, beta, gamma, and delta all have
- strike fleet: 1 battlecruiser, 2 missile destroyer, 2 beam frigate, 2 pd corvette
- cruiser fleet: 1 command and control cruiser, 2 cruiser escort
- carrier fleet: 1 carrier, 2 pd corvette
- science&surveillance fleet: 1 science vessel (Compliment: 2 scouts)
Starfleet epsilon has
- cruiser fleet: 1 command and control cruiser, 2 cruiser escort
- strike carrier fleet: 1 strike carrier, 2 missile destroyer
Landmark class corvette (~3,000 tons/6,000 kps)
- 2 point defense gauss turrets
- 1 laser turret
New Haven class frigate (~5,000 tons/6,000 kps)
- 3 25cm railguns
- 2 30 cm plasma carronades
- 8 sheets of armor
Sao Paulo class destroyer (~7,000 tons/6,000 kps)
- 5 size 3 missile tubes
- 2 point defense gauss turrets
- 1 point defense missile system
- 1 tactical scanner (1 resolution over at least 10 million km)
- 8 sheets of armor
Statesman class battlecruiser (~16,000 tons/6,000 kps)
- 5 size 3 missile tubes
- 3 point defense gauss turrets
- 5 25 cm lasers
- 1 point defense missile system
- 1 predator thermal sensor (size 10)
- 10 sheets of armor
Arirang class carrier (~18,000 tons/5,000 kps)
- 4 point defense gauss turrets
- compliment of 5 interceptors, 5 bombers, 2 missile boats, 2 AWACs
- jump engine
- 7 sheets of armor
Agencourt class cruiser escort (~6,000 tons/5,000 kps)
- 6 point defense gauss turrets
- 1 25 cm railgun
- 5 sheets of armor
Monarch class Missile cruiser (~20,000 tons/5,000 kps)
- 10 size ten 1/2 sized missile launchers
- 5 size 3 missile tubes
- Tactical Scanner (1 resolution over at least 10 million km)
- Strategic Scanner (2,500 ton resolution over at least 1 billion km)
- size 10 thermal sensor
- 8 sheets of armor
- 2 point defense missile system
- jump engine
United Nations class Strike Carrier (~20,000 tons/6,000 kps)
- 4 very long range 25 cm lasers
- 6 point defense gauss turrets
- Tactical Scanner (1 resolution over at least 10 million km)
- compliment of 4 interceptors 4 bombers and 1 awac
- 10 sheets of armor
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One thing that would bother me is your ship sizes are all over the place. A destroyer is bigger than a cruiser escort, while a missile cruiser is bigger than a battlecruiser.
I've always gone with the philosophy of "if a ship is xx tonnage then it is yy class." The destroyers I listed below are 7500 tons, the cruisers are 15k tons. The scouts are destroyer class. Everything has the same size/engine ratio, so the speed is the same. If I were to design a ship smaller than a destroyer, the frigate would be 3750. The planned battlecruisers are 22500 tons, and the battleships are 30000 tons.
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I chose classes based on role. The battlecruiser is a ship of the line, the missile cruiser is really more of a command/control cruiser, though I might put the actual flag bridge on a smaller command and control ship in that fleet, something with a few point defense turrets and a massive passive thermal/em sensor suite.
I figured "cruiser escort" meant "escort for a cruiser" not "escort that is a cruiser". They are escort ships for the cruiser group, protecting it from missile fire, and they run a cannon for close in fighting, though that should not happen with the cruiser fleets very often. I suppose a more accurate term for their class is just "escort".
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To me, a cruiser escort is a cruiser sized ship that fulfills an escort role (PD). A destroyer escort is a destroyer sized ship that is an escort. Etc.
With my layout the way it is planned, one BB Squadron will have 3 BC squads (all offense), 9 CA squads (mixed offense/escort), and 27 DD squads (heavily escort/light offense). This formation will have between 200 and 320 ships, depending on how many ships per squadron (5-8). Though in practice I doubt I'd ever run the formation as is on paper, but rather split CA/DD squadrons off on detached duties (picket, cleanse systems).
I can also use the formations to put the escorts in front and on the flanks. DD1 dead ahead 100k km, DD2/3 offset +/- 45 degrees at 100k km. Similar approaches to the CA squads for the BC. One ahead, 2 flank. And again for the BC to BB. This gives me around 300k km of defense for beam/area defense weapons.
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just checked, you are correct, in Naval terminology, crusier-escort/destroyer-escort ect refers to ships of that class which fill an escort role. However, I think the rest of the class names make sense.
As much as I'd like to imagine myself as a star commander with hundreds of ships at my beck and call, I don't think i'd be able to control that many ships in game wthout my brain exploding. I think for a single combat theater I'm probably limited to 5-6 fleets of 5-6 ships. Especially since I'm OCD about having 1 jump capable ship in each fleet, and I don't like having to rearrange my task groups.
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For every sector I will have 3 'formations' so at the start and it is only Earth I will probably just have 3 Frigate Divisions which is 3 groups of 2 Frigates at 6k tons.
Once I start expanding and RP the need for moar firepower I start producing Destroyers (10k tons) and then Cruisers (15k tons) and then Battle Cruisers and Carriers (20k tons) with a bigger leap to Battleships (30k tons).
And then I have the biggest ships of the era in Divisions, then Squads/Squadrons/Flotillas depending on the size f the ships and practicality.
So when I am at the BB level I would have a Fleet of:
2 BB
4 BC
4 CV
8 CA
16 DD
And then have attached scouts and other specialized ships or tenders.
The BBs only ever go out with the rest of the fleet but the rest is split into detachable TGs:
Battle Line
2 BC
4 CA
4 DD
Long Range Strike
2 CV
4 DD
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I generally have a small carrier group consisting of one-three carriers and associated fighters/FACs. The carrier groups ave long maint lives on the carriers so that they can take on the fighters which don't gain maint life on a carrier. Then i station the carrier group as pickets in whatever system i deem worth defending, besides the carriers i have frigate squadrons consisting of five frigates for each border system i have, So if my frontier is one warp point there's 1 frigate force, more warp points to picket more frigates.
I also generally have 2 or 3 Destroyer squadrons floating (no pun intended) around consisting of:
1 9000 ton DL
3 9000 ton DE`s
4 9000 ton DDG`s
Besides those i have my main battle fleet which doubles as my Home Fleet It usually consists of:
Twelve 7000 ton frigates
Four 12000 ton cariers
Eight 9000 ton missile destroyers
Six 9000 ton destroyer escorts
Two 9000 ton destroyer leaders that double as PD boats.
Five 18000 ton Cruisers
One 20000 ton Command cruiser.
Two 24000 ton Battle Cruisers
and Finally One 60000 ton Dreadnaught
Generally I only have the destroyers and cruisers but once war is declared with a given species i add the frigates BC`s and Dreadnaughts
I`ve yet to meet a species that can stop my main battle fleet or even more than one destroyer squadron. Although i generally use the drestroyers as screenign elements for the main battle force
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how do you guys move all these ships without getting a massive headache? Is there some shortcut? At my current tech level, I can only jump 7 ships at a time with my capitol ships, which means each task group needs 1 jump ship, at least, unless I want to stop every day and rearrange them. that places an upward limit of 7 ships per task group.
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I Just keep my fleets all in one TG so my home fleet. All of those ships. Is one dot.
Carriers are a bit different, I generally launch the carried ships, split off a ship, add the other fighters/FACS to that ships tg attack, then send the fighters back to join the carrier and land.
So it's not really that hard. As for moving from system to system JUMP GATES They are An ARMO....GOD send. I use them ALL THE TIME. Never have to worry about enemies using them to find their way through my space, warp Nexi are beutiful.
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how do you guys move all these ships without getting a massive headache? Is there some shortcut? At my current tech level, I can only jump 7 ships at a time with my capitol ships, which means each task group needs 1 jump ship, at least, unless I want to stop every day and rearrange them. that places an upward limit of 7 ships per task group.
Send a scout through. If it's not instantly blasted, use standard transit. Everything will get there eventually.
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how do you guys move all these ships without getting a massive headache? Is there some shortcut? At my current tech level, I can only jump 7 ships at a time with my capitol ships, which means each task group needs 1 jump ship, at least, unless I want to stop every day and rearrange them. that places an upward limit of 7 ships per task group.
Don't make a combat jump? My task groups are not organized to do a JP assault. There's been no need as the only "aliens" found have been precursors deep insystem. Once I encounter someone else which chews me up on a JP transit, I'll reorganize. As for now though, in my race's experience there is no need for a combat transit.
Also since my TG are designed for detached duty, each size class gets a jump capable design. Usually by taking an offensive platform and stripping out some launchers.
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In my current game where I have one population system with serious colonization, one with a minor populated outpost, and about three exploited systems and then six or seven systems patrolled for security purposes. I decided to go with a Battlestar Galactica theme for shipbuilding; basically really big ships and numbers of smaller escorts. Currently (its 2053) my Fleet holds 25 Battlestars (Of varying types but mostly built around three archtypes: the type with a big set of railguns, a type with gauss PD turrets, and another with box launchers instead of missile launchers. All types came with nine size-4 ML. Defences were usually 18-20 layers of armor), six troop ships, 19 survey ships, four big tankers, 11 Valkyrie Escortstars, (8x10cm railguns, box launchers instead of the launchers and magazine of the Palamedes), 8 Palamedes Escortstars (8x10cm railguns, 11 layers of armor, 2 s-4 ML. A fairly old design produced before boxed launchers were available), 2 jump frigates, 1 jump battlestar under construction, four battlestars paused under construction (due to crew shortage) and 7 5000-ton command ships. There's a couple odd-ball ships like a couple stealth scout ships and three jump-point gunboats. I find with 25 capital ships I can have two squadrons of 4-7 BST plus escorts deployed to watch the jumpegate leading to a NPR system and the jumpgate to a system absolutely crawling with the Swarm, and another of the first-generation BST (still equipped with Hyperdrive engines since I made a custom system which had a distant secondary star with life supporting planets....) camped over my biggest colony and some parked in huge PDC hangers as a reserve. When I attack the NPR (which has a big fleet) I'll be able to simply fly my fleet to their homeworld and absorb whatever missiles gets through a mass of PD fire.
Essentially you should have a fleet size that reflects the amount of territory you need to defend and have a good sized force to clear systems of robotic leftovers or deal with NPR's while at the same time having a decent reserve force. There's been more then one game where I underestimated a enemy and lost a good number of ships or, a much more fun occurrence, lost due to some doctrine I decided to follow pre-game or/and fighting the way a fleet that has no practical experience would fight.
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One thing that would bother me is your ship sizes are all over the place. A destroyer is bigger than a cruiser escort, while a missile cruiser is bigger than a battlecruiser.
I've always gone with the philosophy of "if a ship is xx tonnage then it is yy class." The destroyers I listed below are 7500 tons, the cruisers are 15k tons. The scouts are destroyer class. Everything has the same size/engine ratio, so the speed is the same. If I were to design a ship smaller than a destroyer, the frigate would be 3750. The planned battlecruisers are 22500 tons, and the battleships are 30000 tons.
To be fair a modern destroyer may well be equal or larger in size than a modern cruiser. The designation destroyer or cruiser don't seem to matter much anymore in naval terms. Although I agree that destroyers in general are smaller than cruisers. Cruisers are much smaller today and destroyers larger, they also basically fill the same roles with destroyers leaning more towards submarine hunting I guess, but I'm not that knowledgeable in the field. ;)
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To be fair a modern destroyer may well be equal or larger in size than a modern cruiser. The designation destroyer or cruiser don't seem to matter much anymore in naval terms. Although I agree that destroyers in general are smaller than cruisers. Cruisers are much smaller today and destroyers larger, they also basically fill the same roles with destroyers leaning more towards submarine hunting I guess, but I'm not that knowledgeable in the field. ;)
To me, and this probably harkens back to my days playing SFB and Starfire, but ships should be ranked Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser (Light/Heavy), Battlecruiser, Battleship, Dreadnought. In order of size, smallest to largest. A cruiser is always bigger than a destroyer. Of course, one man's cruisers may be another man's destroyers. For example, your 30k ton "heavy cruisers" I'd class as battleships minimum.
And even between different play throughs of Aurora, a destroyer could be 5000 tons or 10,000 tons. Most end up in the 6000-7500 ton range though.
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To me, and this probably harkens back to my days playing SFB and Starfire, but ships should be ranked Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser (Light/Heavy), Battlecruiser, Battleship, Dreadnought. In order of size, smallest to largest. A cruiser is always bigger than a destroyer. Of course, one man's cruisers may be another man's destroyers. For example, your 30k ton "heavy cruisers" I'd class as battleships minimum.
And even between different play throughs of Aurora, a destroyer could be 5000 tons or 10,000 tons. Most end up in the 6000-7500 ton range though.
Hrm.... I may need to redesign my destroyers and frigates, my DD's usually weigh in at damn near precisely 9000 tons and my frigates are about the size you mentioned, cruisers are double the size of destroyers, and so on and so forth.
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My ship classes used to go by weight, but now I am changing to role. As it turns out, it does keep the weight increase.
Frigates form the main battlegroup, being small (6ktons) and able to be produced en-masse. They are pure missile combatants, with both ASM and AMM tubes. They are escorted by coillers, tankers, command ships, sensor ships, jumpships.
The battlegroup cannot do squadron transits. Frigates will never be found alone or in small groups.
Destroyers are specialists made to do specific things. 10-20ktons. Often, these are cloak-ultra-long-range drone shooters, or jumppoint assault (since the battlegroup fails horribly at it).
Cruisers are independent long range patrol. They come with a jumpdrive each and maneuver completely independently of my normal military movements. Meant to be individual patrol ships, used to check supposedly empty jump chains to make sure they are still empty. Suspect this class will not be smaller than 30ktons.
Battleships, another hypothetical class, are jumppoint defence and attack, also slower than fleet speed. Very tanky. Probably see more use than the cruisers, even if they turn out to be smaller.
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Steve himself said that ship size tends to increase with tech level- as in real life. A civil war frigate is tiny compared to a modern day frigate.
I very much keep my designations in line with role, rather than size. Destroyers are the gun line, Escorts provide support, and are frequently bigger than the ships they're supporting, especially if I put a jump engine on them to save room for weapons on the other ships. Gunboats are smaller, turreted craft, similar to modern PT boats, and they play a similar role- point defense support for larger craft in a bigger operation, or running interference when needed. Of course in my current game, my gun "boats" are 7000 tonnes- as big as many destroyers. (Then again, my destroyers are 13,300 tonnes.) All in all, working together, they made Swiss cheese out of several precursor ships, including one with heavy beam armor. And one gunboat took an entire salvo of 7 anti-ship missiles before I realized I'd let them extend their range too far in front of the escort craft. It survived, without taking too much damage.
Of course, back to the original post, I believe in quality and quantity. My carrier group alone has 19 ships plus fighters. Destroyer groups can operate independently of the fleet as a whole, but never have less than four ships- a destroyer, its support escort, and two gunboats. Remember, in the real world, you'll never find ships working alone, either. My carrier groups are modeled after US carrier groups, which have the carrier, a couple destroyers, several smaller communication ships and support craft, and even a submarine or two, plus oilers and supply line craft. The theory is that, if you're a country who's thinking about causing trouble, just seeing that carrier group sitting off your coastline will make you think again. (And carriers are massive. The USS Enterprise is 94,781 tonnes, and 342 meters long. Bigger than the Pentagon.) Anyway, ships that large are often multi-role. The Nimitz-class carriers, besides carrying 90 aircraft, also mount 16-24 surface-to-air missile launchers, and a massive array of sensors, so it carries its own area point defense. Building a multi-role craft like that in Aurora is definitely an end-game proposition. But it still travels with support craft.
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I have read in many places here that multipurpose ships are not possible in the early game but I have designed several multipurpose ships just fine in the early game. Granted I have mostly played in the early game yet and are pretty new my logic can be seriously flawed.
But anyhow, building multipurpose ships do seem to require bigger ships overall and size creep come in all the time with increasing tech levels.
I base my designation on the role of the ships, but in general frigates are smaller than destroyer who in turn are smaller than a cruiser.
As an example I hardly have any real combat naval warships smaller than about 15000 tones, anything below this are just a support ship with limited weaponry such as CIWS systems. I obviously don't cont corvettes (FAC) and attack crafts (Fighters) as naval warships.
A frigate was in my last game just a reconnaissance ship with no weapons beside some CIWS system for self defense.
Destroyers were heavy gunships who started at about 15000 tonnes. Their role where powerful engines, heavy guns and using stealth to sneak up on potential targets. They hunted in pairs alone from cruisers, usually way outside any other ships support, but they still supported at least one or two boat bays with a small scout ship.
My cruiser designation means a ship that can operate on its own and take care of its own defenses and have enough offensive power to be a real threat. They start out at around 35000 tones for the smallest ones and should end up in battle cruisers at about 60000-70000 tones. I have never seen the use for running more than two cruisers and some support frigates in one task group at any time so far. Even one cruiser can perform pretty well of I have equal or better tech than the opponent.
One difference from my tactics seem to be that I don't use any dedicated carries at all (except for my escort carriers or FAC tenders). My bigger warships do tend to have a larger proportion dedicated to hangars the larger they get though. So, a regular cruiser have a lower percentage of their weight in hangar space than a battle cruiser does.
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You are right, of course. Multi-role ships _are_ possible early game, they are just not very efficient (IMO)
My early game DDs are usually around 6000 tons in size. I have missile DDGs, beam DEs, beam DDs and AMM DEs. Now, combining those four types into a single cruiser at around 24000 tons would quite easily be possible. Problems with that approach are:
1) Forward bases are much harder to establish, as I need population and maint. facilities for 24.000 ton ships instead of 6.000 ton ships.
2) Assume I am in a war with a beam heavy enemy. Increasing the DE part of my fleet is not necessary, so I concentrate on building DDGs, which makes increasing my fleets firepower much easier than if I had to build large mulit-role ships.
The same goes for a missile-heavy enemy. I just churn out more DEs.
3) Shipyard can stay at 6.000 tons and can be cheaper/faster retooled for an upgraded class _and_ can build my ships faster (I am able to build 4 x 6.000 ton yards while you build 1 x 24.000 ton yard), so I have as much firepower as you do under construction, only my ships will be faster to build, so I can chrun out more firepower per year than you do (yes I know, a single 24.000 ton yard does not quite need as much time to build as 4 x 6.000 ton yards).
4) More targets for the enemy to shoot at. There _will_ be overkill if the enemy uses missiles, the more overkill, the longer my ships that are not yet engaged can shoot back.
5) Most importantly, if you have offensive beams and missiles on one ship, half of you offensive mass is wasted. Either you are in beam range, than your missiles are (more or less) useless or you are in missile range, then your beams are out of range. With a specialist ship approach, you can tailor your fleet to whatever is needed.
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Idk about such small destroyers, I find that anythign with less than 2 or 3 layers of armor isn't capable of really standing up in a line battle or being useful as delaying action for your real heavy hitters, Also if you add that armor then you just have the problem of fittign your weapons and CIWS into the ship, that's why anythign less than 7500 tons that isn't a suervey vessel or FAC/Fighter simply isn't worth the materials to build it IMO. Still i can see the merit of using small, fast, and kinda dangerous at higher tech levels, craft in raiding.
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Idk about such small destroyers, I find that anythign with less than 2 or 3 layers of armor isn't capable of really standing up in a line battle or being useful as delaying action for your real heavy hitters, Also if you add that armor then you just have the problem of fittign your weapons and CIWS into the ship, that's why anythign less than 7500 tons that isn't a suervey vessel or FAC/Fighter simply isn't worth the materials to build it IMO. Still i can see the merit of using small, fast, and kinda dangerous at higher tech levels, craft in raiding.
Um, how about this?
Fury class Destroyer Escort 6,000 tons 490 Crew 952.6 BP TCS 120 TH 396 EM 0
3300 km/s Armour 4-29 Shields 0-0 Sensors 12/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 4 PPV 15.71
Maint Life 4.56 Years MSP 397 AFR 72% IFR 1% 1YR 31 5YR 466 Max Repair 192 MSP
Magazine 233
Thordan 66X Ion Engine (6) Power 66 Fuel Use 72% Signature 66 Armour 0 Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres Range 83.3 billion km (292 days at full power)
Twin LFN Linblad 30mm Gauss Cannon Turret (1x4) Range 20,000km TS: 12000 km/s Power 0-0 RM 2 ROF 5 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Sync Tracker (24/8) (1) Max Range: 48,000 km TS: 8000 km/s 79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0
Magna Shortbow-1 (8) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 10
Cats Eye 15/1 MFC (2) Range 15.4m km Resolution 1
Dart (233) Speed: 30,000 km/s End: 1.7m Range: 3m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 250 / 150 / 75
Tansech C15/1 Radar System (1) GPS 192 Range 15.4m km Resolution 1
Achernar Electronics TH-12 (1) Sensitivity 12 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 12m km
or this:
Avenger Mk. IIb class Missile Destroyer 6,000 tons 599 Crew 868.6 BP TCS 120 TH 396 EM 0
3300 km/s Armour 4-29 Shields 0-0 Sensors 6/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 2 PPV 30
Maint Life 3.79 Years MSP 226 AFR 115% IFR 1.6% 1YR 25 5YR 371
Max Repair 64 MSP Magazine 420
Thordan 66X Ion Engine (6) Power 66 Fuel Use 72% Signature 66 Armour 0 Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres Range 104.2 billion km (365 days at full power)
Magna Longbow-5 (6) Missile Size 5 Rate of Fire 50
Cats Eyes 89/60 MFC (1) Range 89.2m km Resolution 60
White Shark Mk. II (84) Speed: 20,000 km/s End: 37.5m Range: 45m km WH: 4 Size: 5 TH: 100 / 60 / 30
Tansech C51/100 Radar System (1) GPS 6400 Range 51.2m km Resolution 100
Achernar Electronics TH-6 (1) Sensitivity 6 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 6m km
then there are the small frigates
Fiji class Frigate 4,000 tons 352 Crew 624.4 BP TCS 80 TH 132 EM 0
3300 km/s Armour 6-22 Shields 0-0 Sensors 3/3/0/0 Damage Control Rating 3 PPV 16.33
Maint Life 5.81 Years MSP 293 AFR 42% IFR 0.6% 1YR 15 5YR 221 Max Repair 60 MSP Magazine 89
Parsson Type 66/50 Ion Engine (4) Power 66 Fuel Use 84% Signature 33 Armour 0 Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres Range 53.6 billion km (187 days at full power)
Triple 100mm/L60/R5 VL-Lasercannon Turret (1x3) Range 60,000km TS: 12000 km/s Power 9-9 RM 2 ROF 5 3 3 2 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
TrueTack Class 32/8 Tracking System (1) Max Range: 64,000 km TS: 8000 km/s 84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
Shortbow Space-Space AMM Launcher (4) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 10
SureFire Class 11/1 Missile Targeting System (1) Range 10.8m km Resolution 1
StarSearch Class 3 Thermal Sensor (1) Sensitivity 3 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 3m km
SkySearch Class 3 EM-Sensor (1) Sensitivity 3 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 3m km
Agincourt class Patrol Craft 3,950 tons 461 Crew 521.4 BP TCS 79 TH 84 EM 0
3037 km/s Armour 3-22 Shields 0-0 Sensors 12/6/0/0 Damage Control Rating 3 PPV 20
Annual Failure Rate: 41% IFR: 0.6% Maint Capacity 248 MSP Max Repair 35 MSP Est Time: 5.34 Years
Rolls Royce Mk. 40/35 Nuclear Pulse Engine (6) Power 40 Fuel Use 80% Signature 14 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 150,000 Litres Range 85.4 billion km (325 days at full power)
120mmL60/R10 Railgun (4x4) Range 60,000km TS: 3037 km/s Power 6-2 RM 3 ROF 15 2 2 2 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Rand Technologies Type 72/3 Tracking System (1) Max Range: 144,000 km TS: 3000 km/s 93 86 79 72 65 58 51 44 37 31
Pebble Bed Reactor 3 (3) Total Power Output 9 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fairfield Mk. 2.9/16 Radar System (1) GPS 192 Range 2.9m km Resolution 16
Deep Scan Class 12 Thermal Sensor (1) Sensitivity 12 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 12m km
Skywatch Class 6 EM Sensor (1) Sensitivity 6 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 6m km
As you can see, all of them have at least armor 3. Of course, they are not as fast as some would like their ships to be, but every design is a compromise after all.
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Those are actually Very nice designs... hrm, still the armament seems a bit light on them, my DDG's double as AMM disensers with around 12 S1 missile launchers and then my S4 Heavy hitters and S3 standard combat missiles. However your design philosophy seems to work as well though i'm not really a fan of railguns or Gauss, my DE's double as Energy combatants and mount a healthy number of laser cannon. Though my Destroyers were about 100 KM/s or so slower than yours when i used Ion tech, i'm at mag plas engines and researching mag conf. My philosophy is that a bigger ship means you can fit more engines in it while keeping healthy armament, i once had cruisers faster than destroyers before i decided to add more weapons to the cruiser and remove some engines, most ships in my fleet have a quasi standardised speed, you can look at my designs in one of the other threads in the bureau, i repurposed an old thread of mine.
All in all good ships and it's made me begin thinking about designing a smaller force as a fast reaction unit in my empire.
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For mainline fleets, I actively try not to go over 10ktons. Occasional specialists do go over 10ktons, but I find that 6ktons is often enough to mount everything I need to.
While I used to use a mixed-size fleet, with designations increasing with size, I decided it wasn't worth the hassle. A missile destroyer is much the same as a missile frigate, it just has more of everything (with about 1-2% less armour panels). Why not just build proportionally more frigates?
Not only is it logistically easier (less maintenance stations to tow around), the primary driver for this is that if you have a lower number of designs, you can set up the fire for one and just copy it. Assigning missiles, ECCM, setting ranges, etc. is a major pain when you have 20+ ship types running around.
In fact, I now have merged my AMM and ASM frigates into one all-purpose missile frigate.
The only point of having fewer big ships IMO, is to benefit more from good officers and RP. Which is why I am presently building up a 1-slip shipyard to 30-40ktons size. For those special occasions when I have an incredible officer, he'll get a special ship.
And there is what better to cheer up the men than the leadership of a 40kton missile-spewing laser-flashing behemoth? =D
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You are right, of course. Multi-role ships _are_ possible early game, they are just not very efficient (IMO)
My early game DDs are usually around 6000 tons in size. I have missile DDGs, beam DEs, beam DDs and AMM DEs. Now, combining those four types into a single cruiser at around 24000 tons would quite easily be possible. Problems with that approach are:
1) Forward bases are much harder to establish, as I need population and maint. facilities for 24.000 ton ships instead of 6.000 ton ships.
2) Assume I am in a war with a beam heavy enemy. Increasing the DE part of my fleet is not necessary, so I concentrate on building DDGs, which makes increasing my fleets firepower much easier than if I had to build large mulit-role ships.
The same goes for a missile-heavy enemy. I just churn out more DEs.
3) Shipyard can stay at 6.000 tons and can be cheaper/faster retooled for an upgraded class _and_ can build my ships faster (I am able to build 4 x 6.000 ton yards while you build 1 x 24.000 ton yard), so I have as much firepower as you do under construction, only my ships will be faster to build, so I can chrun out more firepower per year than you do (yes I know, a single 24.000 ton yard does not quite need as much time to build as 4 x 6.000 ton yards).
4) More targets for the enemy to shoot at. There _will_ be overkill if the enemy uses missiles, the more overkill, the longer my ships that are not yet engaged can shoot back.
5) Most importantly, if you have offensive beams and missiles on one ship, half of you offensive mass is wasted. Either you are in beam range, than your missiles are (more or less) useless or you are in missile range, then your beams are out of range. With a specialist ship approach, you can tailor your fleet to whatever is needed.
I certainly don't defy your logic or reasoning that specialist ships may actually be useful and might even be better at times. But when it comes to my cruisers being specialized that is mainly done through missiles and their hangar space. All ordinance can be specialized for so many things.
As I understand, bigger ships is also built much faster per tonnage so once you have those big yards you can if you have the infrastructure and resources build more tonnage in a shorter time.
When it comes to forward bases I mainly use a heavy FAC centric approach (and lots of sensor stations for defense) and they are very specialized indeed and quite easy to maintain anywhere. It is also very easy to hide their bases since you don't need a very large population or you use a small maintenance ships to maintain them anywhere.
All my cruisers have enough engineering sections to last them very well from launch to their next refit (when they get overhauled at the same time). So they can stay on station for years on end, even without a supply ship if need be. I don't feel that I need to sacrifice all that much space to gain that ability.
Sure, it might in the end be more inefficient... but I never felt it was thus far.
My main strategy is not brutal power but it is knowledge of my enemies forces. So I invest heavily in my scouting and ability to detect my enemies movement and then devise a plan to destroy them in force.
All my ship designs probably have much more defensive capability that most ships I have seen on the forum (except fighters and FAC). I rather have my ship survive engagement than not. It's more of a role-playing thing I suppose. ;)
In almost all cases I'm the one detecting the enemy first or using my acting sensors on recon ships to make the enemy make a move in a direction that I desire. Drones is also very efficient in giving away enemy positions. All big cruisers have at least one large launch tube for drones and they usually have a large array of many different types of drones to choose from. My big cruiser designs are not just guns and missiles, they have many other uses and can easily be equipped for scouting in force missions, battle missions and all sort of interesting role-playing missions. ;)
Each 36000 tone cruiser have at least one marine company with a drop ship for recon on force on the ground. Sure, that might seem like a waste of space, but has come in handy at least once and it is fun when it does. I plan to have several companies on my larger cruisers.
I also never lost a single cruiser so far, their defensive capabilities seem to be way more than my position can handle so far. I had one limping home in a pretty bad shape once, but it made it back to the repair yard. Most of the time i can just avoid confrontation if I deem the opposition to be too strong.
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Just to add my personal experience...
For whatever reason, my galaxies tend to be pretty empty. My latest game...Ive explored nearly 100 systems. I think I found the starting NPC, as their population was the same as mine...but I could be guessing. They were easily rolled over. One spoiler mothership with minions. (Biggest threat.) A dozen or so spoiler protected outpost/systems. Otherwise...fairly empty. I've never had to engage any opponent on anything but my terms. None of my colonies or outlying mines/outposts have ever been under threat, in any game I have ever played. Rarely does any enemy pursue me through a warp point. This has happened maybe once in 10 or so games.
So for me, ships in a system are more of giving civilian populations protection (so they don't riot, not actual protection), until I get around to building PDC's for them. I don't need a defense strategy, because there are no threats....note I have never turned on invaders. Maybe this game I will, I enjoy getting my butt kicked so I can develop counter-strategies.
Anyways, I keep most of my forces rolled up into two big carrier groups usually berthed at Sol/homeworld unless they are out taking care of business.
Each battle group consists of:
2 carriers, each with one or maybe two squadrons, depending on tonnage. The Carrier is also a huge sensor platform and flagship for the fleet. I find managing separate scouts too problematic. With the carrier being a giant active sensor, I don't need sensor fighters, but I include one in each squadron for backup and for extra fuel.
3-4 missile cruisers, with strike and missile defense capabilities, backup in case the fighters can't handle it.
2-3 point defense ships (gauss, meson turrets, whatever, backup for the missile cruisers)
1-3 cruisers/destroyers whatever you want to call them, basically short ranged beam ships, these rarely see any action
1-2 oilers
2-3 coilers
These carrier groups are what I send out to engage hostile forces. One of these groups can handle anything, except for outpost defender spoilers when I am early, early tech.
I also use what I call hunters- single, fast ships with stealth capabilities, and large passive sensor arrays to scout and opportunity ambush, or to guard warp points. Slap on a few beam weapons and some box launchers, and they work well. Mostly they spend time hunting down NPC scouts/survey ships.
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This is my usual fleet and it's structure
1st Red Fleet
-Supply Line
2x Collier
2x Collier
-Support Line
2x Supply Ship
2x Supply Ship
-Tanker Line
2x Tanker
2x Tanker
4x Troop Transports
6x Corvettes
- 1st Reconnaissance Division
2x Recon Ships
-Battle Division
1x Battlecruiser
2x Destroyers
2x Frigates
2x Missile Frigates
4x Corvettes
-Battle Division
1x Battlecruiser
2x Destroyers
2x Frigates
2x Missile Frigates
4x Corvettes
-Battle Division
1x Battlecruiser
2x Destroyers
2x Frigates
2x Missile Frigates
4x Corvettes
-Battle Division
1x Battlecruiser
2x Destroyers
2x Frigates
2x Missile Frigates
4x Corvettes
If hostiles encountered, then one additional Battle group is constructed for front-line duty with same amount of ships.[/list]