Aurora 4x
VB6 Aurora => Advanced Tactical Command Academy => Topic started by: Marski on September 14, 2012, 11:29:48 AM
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I am trying to create a Naval Organization structure, but I need help as I have no idea what it should look like. A game I am running right now is a continuation of a Hearts of Iron III - For the Motherland campaign, where I achieved a world domination as Soviet Russia. I searched a bit but I couldn't find examples to base my organization upon. And I want to finally get a gist of how this is done so I can sleep again without this bloody button haunting my dreams.
(http://i50.tinypic.com/9pynix.png)
The current ships in service are:
- 7 Cargo ships
- 3 Colony ships
- 4 Geosurvey ships
- 3 Troop Transports
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I normally go with:
- Naval HQ (Combat)
-- First Fleet
--- BB Big Guns
--- BC Swift
--- BC Lean
--- DDE Meat Shield
--- DDE Phalanx
-- Second Fleet
--- BB ...
--- BC ...
........
- Survey HQ
-- Survey Flotilla Alpha
--- GE/GV ...
--- GE/GV ...
....
- Logistics HQ
-- Fuel Harvestors
--- FH ...
--- FH...
-- Cargo ...
.....
-- Colony ...
.....
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Is there no superior command to the Task Forces? I feel odd naming a mere Task Group "Fleet Command"
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Pretend "Task Forces" are "Fleets" and "Task Groups" are "Task Forces". That's what I do.
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My interpretation of your post is that you're both unfamiliar with the Naval Org tab and you want to create something believably Soviet to reflect the continuation of your game.
The ideal naval org tab is something useful for deployment visualization and reorganization. While retaining and reflecting the flavor you want to give your navy is important too, keeping your mind's eye on the first will save you many headaches. :)
I have found that there are essentially four activities for ships.
*Deployment - Squadrons actively deployed away from home. Typically includes pickets and ships permanently assigned to secondary bases.
*Reserves - All ships at home base. Although this can be further divided into the ready reserve and ships undergoing overhaul, I find moving things around in reserves on that basis to be a waste of time. Ships in the reserves are usually all in the same task group, making their status easy to see at a glance. The Naval Org tab lets you split squadrons out of the reserve quickly and easily.
*Working up - Ships with incomplete squadrons or that are undergoing TF training. Once training and initial overhaul is completed, they are assigned to reserves.
*Expeditionary - Major long range expeditions such as war fleets or groups attempting to confront distant Spoiler threats.
Over time, I've rejected putting civilian auxiliaries (cargo ships, colony ships etc.) into TFs, mainly it's a pain with minimal benefits. However, it's very helpful to have naval auxiliaries like fuel tankers and troop transports in the tab.
Finally... naming your task groups properly is important to making things easier. In my ideal, all similar squadrons are next to eachother in the Task Group dropdown. To accomplish this, I named my squadrons things like 'Division Battle 105' or Division Missile 207. Another method is to use abbreviations at the start of TG names - a riff on my earlier TGs would be 'DB105 Hyperion' or 'DM207 Tornado'.
I did some basic Wiki research and came up with the following sample scheme.
-Soviet Military Star Fleet (TF HQ)
--Solar Fleet
---BG 1st Operational Squadron
----NVG 5th Attack Group (Battle Squadron)
----NVG 6th Attack Group
----NVG 2nd Aviation Group (Aviation Cruisers)
----NVS 157th Star Regiment (Fighters)
--Centauri Fleet
---BG 2nd Operational Squadron
----NVG 3rd Attack Group
--Earth Military District
---SRF 43rd Rocket Army (Earth PDCs)
----NVS 124th Star Regiment
---SRF 27th Guards Rocket Army (Earth Defence Stations)
--Mars Military District
---SRF 30th Rocket Army (Mars PDCs)
--Military Reserves
---NVG 4th Attack Group
---NVG 1st Attack Group
---NVU Military Transport Command (Troop Transports)
--Training Command
---NVG 7th Attack Group
---NVS 43rd Star Regiment
---NVS 85th Star Regiment
---NVG 3rd Aviation Group
etc.
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Thanks for the massive amounts of tips Deadlyshoe, althought I already got my hands on some Soviet documents containing structural details of the Naval Organization of that time. However I implemented your ideas with the real life organization, and here's the result.
(http://i46.tinypic.com/wwlzjd.png)
What do you think? I obviously still lack warships, but I intentionally held back until I got my hands on Fusion technology.
PS. I don't know how exactly numbering your groups 'n' stuff goes, but by my logic no matter in what branch they are, two same named divisions or groups will be numbered 1 and 2.
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So in navy military structure, it's possible to have a "group" within a "division", and the group has another "division" inside it, or does it follow the land military logic and it is called "Regiment/brigade"?
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I kinda prefer the Fleet - Taskforce - Taskgroup - Squadron - Wing(for <2kt) designation. Feels a bit more spacey :D If I need more than one fleet for a deployment (not really likely ) I go with a Force -Operation name- container.
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It usually depends for me based on what type of group it is. Warships and their attached support ships in the same fleet are divided into task forces and task groups, which are then sometimes, but not often, divided into squadrons for transits. My current levels of shipping have been too low to really make a "fleet", but it ends up with any fleet, e.g. First Fleet, seperated into three task forces. TF11 and 12 have the warships, with TG1*.1 being a battleship TG, TG1*.2 and .3 being cruiser TGs, and .4 and .5 being destroyer TGs. The destroyer TGs are further subdivided into two squadrons (alpha and beta). TF13 is subdivided into two TGs, each equipped with tankers and supply ships.
Commercial ships are usually trickier. I have a Survey Command which I assign all survey ships to, but most commercial vessels are under Fleet Headquarters. That's divided into Corps, such as the Cargo Transport, Colony Transport, Troop Transport, Fuel Transport, and other Corps, and then those are further subdivided into divisions for individual routes or missions.
I should also mention I keep a System Defense Command, where I assign all fixed or semi-mobile defenses like PDCs, ODCs, or pods deployed defensively in orbit or on jump points. Oft-times there's a subdivision for "mothballed" units in stasis box PDCs.
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I'm just getting into learning this part of the game. Is this mostly for bean counting and such....or do the bonus's add significant value?
I'm also of the school of: Theater Command > Fleet > Task force > task groups
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The crew training bonus is important for warships. But what's the point of having a TF for freighters or survey ships?
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The crew training bonus is important for warships. But what's the point of having a TF for freighters or survey ships?
Logistics bonus decreases their loading times
Steve
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But only if the TF commander is in the same system, right? That's almost never the case.
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It might not be useful for interstellar shipping, but in a single system where you're dealing with multiple bodies it would be worth it. Say, Sol come the new release, where we'll have a ridiculous amount of bodies to play with.
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I am organizing the ships as they are for logistical reasons (because I love organizing things), so in case of combat I send one battlegroup into combat and keep other groups in reserve, and so if things go bad to worse, I haven't wasted units from other battlegroups. However I do not know if the game automatically assigns officers to lead groups (or if its even possible currently), would be neat too. Like Fleet is commanded (according to soviet structure) by Fleet admiral, Battlegroup by Admiral, divisions by Rear Admiral, and Battle Divisions by Vice Admirals.
And I like the sound of sending entire fleet when I absolutely, positively, want to kill everything and everyone in a system.
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However I do not know if the game automatically assigns officers to lead groups (or if its even possible currently), would be neat too.
TF commanders are NOT auto-assigned.
Their staffs are (IIRC).
John
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Indeed. TF COs are manually assigned by the players, then their staffs can be auto-assigned.
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Wait... I create a new TF, add a TG or ships to it, then the highest ranking officer automagically becomes TF commander. How can I assign a different one, except for Fleet HQ on Earth?
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That's not how it works. The commander of a TASK FORCE must be assigned manually by the player. Then his or her staff will be assigned next time auto-assign runs.
I've just confirmed this by creating a new TF, creating a branch under it on Naval Org, adding some ships from a different TG to it, then creating a new TG from the branch. The commander of the new TF is blank.
The highest ranking CO in a TASK GROUP will become the SO for that group. Maybe that's what you're thinking of.
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Ahhh... I guess I always wondered what the TF window was good for.
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OK, let me hijack the thread for a moment: I'm not trying to create a believable naval organization, but a useful one.
I have created several TFs, among them the Civilian Fleet HQ. I use Auto Assignments, so the TF swallows a lot of capable officers (I know I could un-assign them manually but that's too much micro-man for my taste). And the advantage of all these clicks is a slightly lower loading/unloading time of transports in the Sol system?
Is that whole organization thing really worth it? Is there a way to prevent TF positions from being filled?
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OK, let me hijack the thread for a moment: I'm not trying to create a believable naval organization, but a useful one.
I have created several TFs, among them the Civilian Fleet HQ. I use Auto Assignments, so the TF swallows a lot of capable officers (I know I could un-assign them manually but that's too much micro-man for my taste). And the advantage of all these clicks is a slightly lower loading/unloading time of transports in the Sol system?
Is that whole organization thing really worth it? Is there a way to prevent TF positions from being filled?
Don't assign an officer to the TF commander position, and the subordinate positions should remain empty.
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I got level 20 Military Academy(/ies) and one really good admiral that I have given plenty of medals for his honorable work for strenghtening the people's navy of the Soviet Union. But I still don't have any fleet admirals. Do I have to SM him into one?
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I got level 20 Military Academy(/ies) and one really good admiral that I have given plenty of medals for his honorable work for strenghtening the people's navy of the Soviet Union. But I still don't have any fleet admirals. Do I have to SM him into one?
You need a number of lower ranked officers. I believe for the upper ranks you need 3 of the previous rank before it promotes them.
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You need a number of lower ranked officers. I believe for the upper ranks you need 3 of the previous rank before it promotes them.
10 additional academies it is then
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I still don't understand the Naval Organization Tab. I have created a number of Task Groups already and filled them with vessels. But, in the NO Tab I was working and redoing them like this Web Post meantions but its difficult to do. So, should these be set up before any vessels are created through the Fast OB Creation?.
I was thinking
Vor Fleet Headquarts
1st Vor Assault Fleet
1st Battlecruiser Division
1st BC TsG
1st Cruiser Division
1st Missile TsG
2nd Missile TsG
2nd Cruiser Division
etc. etc.
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Reserves - All ships at home base... Ships in the reserves are usually all in the same task group, making their status easy to see at a glance. The Naval Org tab lets you split squadrons out of the reserve quickly and easily.
DeadlyShoe, sir, this is very valuable information. My home planet is a mess of specialized task groups, so I'll try out this organisation of yours immediately. Thank you for the advice:)
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10 additional academies it is then
In my experience if you want to build a large officer corps its more important to have available commands for all those officers. An officer's lifespan from graduation to death/health related retirement will be 30-40yrs but the game automatically retires officers who have not been assigned a command after 5 or 6 years. Thus you could be graduating large numbers of officers only to lose them to premature retirement.
Academies improve the average quality of officers in a given number of commands, and they will speed the growth of your corps given enough available commands, but relatively few are actually needed to have a large officer corps.
Additionally, building an officer corps is further complicated by what appears to be Aurora's tendency not to place high ranking officers in commands that require a low rank, again leading to premature retirement of competent officers. A gradation is required to ensure officers don't race to the top and then retire when commands befitting their rank don't become available.
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So, for example, if I were to build a flagship with the preferred commander rank set to Fleet Admiral and it's priority set to 100, would I then get that precious personnel for that rank?
I had in the game before 6.00 Five whopping battlegroups (battlegroup: 9 combat ships), one missile army (about 30 PDC), and entire fleet of commercial ships from cargo ships to surveillance vessels. Yet even with level 41 military academy I couldn't acquire single Fleet Admiral after decades of waiting.
(also I'm surprised how much conversation is going in this thread, glad to see this helping folks)
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Officer promotion is a pyramid scheme. I think you need 3 of a previous rank before someone can be promoted to the next range.
so if your fleet organization went Fleet Adm, Adm, Commodore, Capt, Commander, Lt.
you would need
1-3-9-27-81-243 officers.
I might be a bit off on that though.
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No your maths is right, and it would just be easier to remove the rank of Lt as this would mean you need less officers by quite a large margin.
Commander, Captain, Commodore, Adm, Adm of the Fleet.
This skips Lt, the lowest rank that can command a warship, and skips Vice Admiral and Rear Admiral, in favour of having Adm of the Fleet as a rank. If you'd rather have Adm as your highest rank you could add Adm of the Fleet as an Honorary title and use a rank structure like this.
Commander, Captain, Commodore, Vice Admiral, Admiral
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So, for example, if I were to build a flagship with the preferred commander rank set to Fleet Admiral and it's priority set to 100, would I then get that precious personnel for that rank?
No. You would be unable to fill the command slot with a "named" commander (remember that all "empty" command positions are actually filled by unexceptional "un-named" officers).
Even worse, every officer needs to occupy some sort of assignment every 5-6 years, or he is removed from the officer corps. So unless you had a bunch of other command slots available, the above tactic would make it worse by making it more difficult to build up the base of the pyramid.
John
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Just as a random note, but you can provide a lot of 'commands' to keep officers in the pool by running carriers + fighters. Set the fighters to your lowest rank (Lieutenant Commander for me), build a bunch, and folks will happily ride those fighters up.
I've managed to get like two Vice Admirals in a Lieutenant Commander -> Commander -> Captain -> Commodore -> Rear Admiral -> Vice Admiral structure in my current game by a combination of spamming fighters for Lieutenant Commanders, cheapie frigates for Commanders, and letting Captains pilot whatever's at the top. Although right now it's kinda... my light cruisers are a Captain slot, the strike cruisers are a commodore slot, Destroyers just got bumped down to a Commander slow, and all the frigates are now Lieutenant Commander slots. Although the downside is I've got 2 VA, like 11 Rear Admirals at the moment (fff), and I'm not willing to keep shoehorning out task forces just to keep some of the crummier admirals, so some of my top-end commands are going to keeping them in the loop.
Still, if you don't mind keeping track of all the task forces, that can be a good way to keep a rank 3 or up happily alive, while potentially making use of the myriads of rank 1s who have absolutely no crew training score.