Aurora 4x
VB6 Aurora => Bureau of Ship Design => Topic started by: Black on December 07, 2012, 12:57:54 AM
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Hello, I found this great game last week so I do not really have any experience with designing military ships. I prepared some designs and I would like to know, if I will be able to use those ships in combat.
Napoleon class Destroyer 8 950 tons 227 Crew 1331.32 BP TCS 179 TH 720 EM 0
4022 km/s Armour 4-38 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 2 PPV 40
Maint Life 1.08 Years MSP 186 AFR 320% IFR 4.5% 1YR 160 5YR 2403 Max Repair 144 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months Spare Berths 1
Magazine 280
120 EP Ion Drive (6) Power 120 Fuel Use 63% Signature 120 Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1 000 000 Litres Range 31.9 billion km (91 days at full power)
Loki-5 Missile Launcher (8) Missile Size 5 Rate of Fire 50
Beholder-66 Missile Fire Control (2) Range 66.9m km Resolution 60
Short Range Military Search Sensor (1) GPS 320 Range 8.1m km Resolution 10
Standard Military Search Sensor (1) GPS 5760 Range 59.5m km Resolution 60
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Salamander class Destroyer Leader 8 850 tons 198 Crew 1502.52 BP TCS 177 TH 720 EM 0
4067 km/s Armour 4-38 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 2 PPV 12
Maint Life 1.08 Years MSP 212 AFR 313% IFR 4.4% 1YR 183 5YR 2739 Max Repair 150 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months Spare Berths 0
Flag Bridge Magazine 252
120 EP Ion Drive (6) Power 120 Fuel Use 63% Signature 120 Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1 000 000 Litres Range 32.3 billion km (91 days at full power)
CIWS-160 (2x4) Range 1000 km TS: 16000 km/s ROF 5 Base 50% To Hit
Loki-5 Missile Launcher (2) Missile Size 5 Rate of Fire 50
Sling-1 AMM Launcher (2) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 10
Beholder-66 Missile Fire Control (1) Range 66.9m km Resolution 60
Anti-Missile Missile Fire Control (1) Range 23.0m km Resolution 1
Anti-Missile Military Search Sensor (1) GPS 32 Range 2.6m km Resolution 1
Short Range Military Search Sensor (1) GPS 320 Range 8.1m km Resolution 10
Standard Military Search Sensor (1) GPS 5760 Range 59.5m km Resolution 60
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
I am not sure if those informations are enough to judge the ship designs, I will try to provide more information if necessary.
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Those are actually really solid first designs. The only thing I would recommend changing would be to ditch the ASM launchers off of the second design and go pure AMM. It's almost always better to dedicate a ship to one goal than to mix.
Oh - and use a bigger missile search sensor. Not only can your AMM fire control can shoot at missiles from almost 10x your sensor's detection range, but with a 2.6 mkm resolution 1 detection radius you're likely to have any reasonably speedy missiles cross your entire 6 MSP detection range in a single 5-second turn and thus completely avoid any of your AMM counter-fire.
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Thank you for your advice, I will try to upgrade my AMM systems.
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I think that these designs would work quite well. As HaliRyan said you could economize and make the sensor suites much more efficient by dedicating them to larger versions put onto slight versions of the same ship. In your case you could actually design ONE type of ship in three variants that each carry a different resolution on their sensor. The good thing would also be that they all could be built in the same naval yard given that the sensor is not too big and take up a too large cost of the ship.
What I don't necessarily agree with HaliRyan is that you should should always specialize your ships. A ship could very well be used for firing both offensive and defensive missiles. By putting both launchers on the same ship you could make the ship either offensive or defensive based on the load out of your missiles. If you also have a collier ship nearby this change could happen really quick.
So, my advice would be to put one sensor with one resolution on each ship and use the extra space left over to mount both offensive and defensive launchers and deepen the magazines somewhat. All three versions could be built in the same naval ship yard.
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Your magazines are empty also. It would be very embarrassing to get into battle with nothing to shoot.
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Your first designs are better than my 10th or 20th. A lot of people here like the dedicated designs, but I prefer my missile cruisers to have both ASM and AMM. I just build more cruisers if I need to.
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Your magazines are empty also. It would be very embarrassing to get into battle with nothing to shoot.
Those data are from Class Design Menu, maybe that is the reason why the magazines are empty? I am not really sure, all my operational ships are commercial designs so they do not have any magazines. I have to build missiles in industrial menu right?
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Your first designs are better than my 10th or 20th. A lot of people here like the dedicated designs, but I prefer my missile cruisers to have both ASM and AMM. I just build more cruisers if I need to.
I agree with you for big ships, say 25.000 tons and bigger. For ships below, say 10.000 tons, it is pretty much impossible (at reasonable tech levels) to have both, reasonable ASM _and_ AMM capability. Look at Black´s ships, which, I agree, are generaly good.
The Salamander has 2 ASM and 2 AMM tubes. None of both will do him much good in a fight vs. an enemy even a tech level or two below him. At that size of ship (and tech) you need as many ASM tubes as you can get your hands on to get some missiles through and also as many AMM tubes as you can get to intercept even halve of the missiles, the enemy is throwing at you.
You also have to keep in mind, that for those two ASM tubes, you need a dedicated firecon. The more tubes you mount , the less mass that firecon has _per tube_ (up to the point, where you want to have a second one, as backup or to engage several targets at once) and the same goes for those 2 AMM tubes.
Scrapping the two ASMs, would free 500 tons. Add in the mass of the Beholder-66 _and_ the res-60 sensor and you have got a _lot_ of mass to strengthen your AMM capability.
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Those data are from Class Design Menu, maybe that is the reason why the magazines are empty? I am not really sure, all my operational ships are commercial designs so they do not have any magazines. I have to build missiles in industrial menu right?
Missiles are build by your industry, yes.
You set the default load-out on the ship-design screen, ordnance/fighters tab.
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Oh I didnt know that, thanks.
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I agree with you for big ships, say 25.000 tons and bigger. For ships below, say 10.000 tons, it is pretty much impossible (at reasonable tech levels) to have both, reasonable ASM _and_ AMM capability.
Agreed, below 10kt. I design my CG's (missile cruisers) around 13-15kt. They have good fire control, but only a backup short range active search sensor, saves on space a bit. I usually centralize my fleet active search capabilities. Any ship that can fire something gets a small short range backup. I also keep magazine size smaller than most, but keep coilers with the fleet if necessary.
One thing I've learned as well as it to outfit my fighters and my missiles with the same ASM's, so my carriers can also carry backups for the CG's and vice versa.
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For me it really depends on many different aspects of the game. I have had small frigates in the sizes of 4500-6000 tons carry both offensive and defensive launchers.
A regular frigate squadrons purpose would be to act as either escort or advanced vanguard and engage enemy advanced vanguard or as an anti FAC/Figthter screen. They would mount miniaturized size 3-4 offensive launchers (between 5-8 in numbers) and about 4-10 intercept launchers (size 1). They could usually have magazines of at least 300-400 points.
Their role would be to engage other small ships (below destroyer level) and to saturate the missile defenses of larger battle groups if necessary. While they would usually carry 2/3 of their missile stock with defensive missiles they could restock once the enemies defenses are weaker and engage them with a 3/4 stock of offensive missiles.
With that said, I do have dedicated designs in the fleet, but these are usually dedicated point defense escort ships that don't carry any missiles at all.
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Just a small info, I tweaked my designs and today I had finally an opportunity to use them in combat against Precursor vessel. My ships were able to destroy it. So I thank you all for your advices. I had small carrier with them, but unfortunately I had some problems with my fighters, so there are still many things that I need to learn.
Destroyer design:
DD Resolution class Destroyer 9 850 tons 225 Crew 1501.3 BP TCS 197 TH 900 EM 0
4568 km/s Armour 2-40 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 2 PPV 32
Maint Life 1.04 Years MSP 262 AFR 282% IFR 3.9% 1YR 242 5YR 3627 Max Repair 189 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months Spare Berths 0
Magazine 632
150 EP Ion Drive (6) Power 150 Fuel Use 94.33% Signature 150 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 2 000 000 Litres Range 38.7 billion km (98 days at full power)
Thor-4 Missile Launcher (8) Missile Size 4 Rate of Fire 30
Beholder-85 Missile Fire Control (2) Range 85.9m km Resolution 60
Shark-4 Anti-ship Missile (158) Speed: 24 000 km/s End: 54.2m Range: 78.1m km WH: 5 Size: 4 TH: 128/76/38
Standard Military Search Sensor (1) GPS 7560 Range 107.4m km Resolution 60
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
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Might I suggest that your fire control has too much range? This makes it larger than necessary, although it could save you on refits should you develop a new misile in future.
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Might I suggest that your fire control has too much range? This makes it larger than necessary, although it could save you on refits should you develop a new misile in future.
In my opinion/experience it's good to over engineer FCs and sensors. Sensors and FCs are expensive research-wise, so having a bit bigger size to compensate for new missile techs and types (missiles are generally pretty cheap rp wise) is generally a good idea IMO. Then again sometimes my missile range shrinks as my tech goes up (depending on how vigorously I've researched fuel efficiency) due to greatly increased speed. *shrug*
Overall, Black, I think your designs look solid, especially for a new player.
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Might I suggest that your fire control has too much range? This makes it larger than necessary, although it could save you on refits should you develop a new misile in future.
I wouldn't. If anything it may be a little short. Scenario: missile speed 24k/kps endurance 3252 seconds (54.2m) attacking target with speed 5k/kps. In a meeting engagement active sensors/MFC need to detect/lock target at a little over 94m/km to intercept at max range.
If the target has ECM superiority the range extends. A mismatch of just 1 means the designed detect/lock range needs to be just under 104m/km.
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Enemy that I encountered had ships with ECM and that is why I started to use fire control with longer range.
I played quite a lot in last few days and developed some bigger ships as well and now I think that my destroyers are a bit too large. For my next game I think I will go with 6000 tons destroyers.
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I neve thought about ECM, really the Fc\sensor are fine, your designs are pretty good.
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Enemy that I encountered had ships with ECM and that is why I started to use fire control with longer range.
I played quite a lot in last few days and developed some bigger ships as well and now I think that my destroyers are a bit too large. For my next game I think I will go with 6000 tons destroyers.
What level of ECM? and have you researched ECCM at all?
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I am not sure what level of ECM enemy has. I do have ECCM, but i do not equip my destroyers with it. To be honest I didn't look very closely on ECCM yet. So I am not sure how should I use it to be effective.
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I am not sure what level of ECM enemy has. I do have ECCM, but i do not equip my destroyers with it. To be honest I didn't look very closely on ECCM yet. So I am not sure how should I use it to be effective.
Add 1 ECCM module to the class design for every FC you intend to assign them. On the same screen where you assign weapons to fire controls you also assign available ECCM. Standard ECCM modules are 3hs and compact are 1hs.
Every little bit helps.
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For missile fire controls ECCM can be a little bit too large unless you use the compact version and even then it can just be better to put bigger fire controls on the ship. Better range on the fire control can also be used for adding new types of missiles with longer range at a later stage.
For beam fire controls ECCM work differently and would in general be much more effective without much afterthought.
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I didn't really build any ships equipped with energy weapons because I am still not very sure about turret construction. I have some PD ships equipped with Gauss cannon turrets, but I didn't test those in combat. I am still not very sure about turret construction.
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Well, the basics of using turrets are that you only need to turret your energy weapons if you intend to shoot stuff that are higher than you ships speed or your basic tracking technology (whichever is highest is used).
So, if you have a standard speed of 4000km/s on your ships and a basic beam FC tracking speed of 5000km/s you will not need a turret to track enemies with a speed less than 5000km/s. The same would be true if the ship had a speed of 5000km/s and your tracking speed was 4000km/s.
You still need your actual beam fire control to match this tracking speed.
In general, turrets are used for engaging missiles/fighters/FAC. Against ships you could for the most part use either ship speed or basic tracking speed and will not need to turret your beam weapon.
Whatever you decide to do should obviously be based on the type of enemy you are facing. If you can build beam ships that can destroy your enemy without sustaining too much damage back then beams are much more efficient than missiles. Missiles on the other hand have an enormous range advantage but when you crunch the numbers they are very expensive to use. Especially when you consider all the logistics support you need and not just the missile armed ship and it's ordnance.
If you can neutralize enemy missile barrages with gauss PD, shields and laser area PD you are very efficient resource wise even if you need to build slightly more ships in tonnage in order to do so.
Also remember that when it comes to using non turreted beam weapons as PD they can actually be pretty decent if you also have a good "Max tracking time vs missile bonus" and are able to track inbound missiles for a while before they hit you.
So, you should not neglect the strength of beam weapons unless you have near unlimited quantities of the resources for building endless quantities of missiles and ships to supply your fleets with them.
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Thank you for the explanation about turrets and energy weapons. I actually had some difficulties supplying my ships with missiles in my last game. So I think for my next game I will try to build some laser ships.
From what I read beam weapons should be also good for guarding jump point. Is it viable tactics to build some space fortress to guard jump points?
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Yes, that's a good tactic. For JP defence the best bet is a base with plasma carronades. Its the weapon with the highest damage in the early stages of the game.
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I will have to rotate those bases to planet orbit for maintenance and R&R right?
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Give them for instance 120 months of deployment time and then just tow them back when they need it.
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Hello, I found this great game last week so I do not really have any experience with designing military ships. I prepared some designs and I would like to know, if I will be able to use those ships in combat.
Napoleon class Destroyer 8 950 tons 227 Crew 1331.32 BP TCS 179 TH 720 EM 0
4022 km/s Armour 4-38 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 2 PPV 40
Maint Life 1.08 Years MSP 186 AFR 320% IFR 4.5% 1YR 160 5YR 2403 Max Repair 144 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months Spare Berths 1
Magazine 280
120 EP Ion Drive (6) Power 120 Fuel Use 63% Signature 120 Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1 000 000 Litres Range 31.9 billion km (91 days at full power)
Loki-5 Missile Launcher (8) Missile Size 5 Rate of Fire 50
Beholder-66 Missile Fire Control (2) Range 66.9m km Resolution 60
Short Range Military Search Sensor (1) GPS 320 Range 8.1m km Resolution 10
Standard Military Search Sensor (1) GPS 5760 Range 59.5m km Resolution 60
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Salamander class Destroyer Leader 8 850 tons 198 Crew 1502.52 BP TCS 177 TH 720 EM 0
4067 km/s Armour 4-38 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 2 PPV 12
Maint Life 1.08 Years MSP 212 AFR 313% IFR 4.4% 1YR 183 5YR 2739 Max Repair 150 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months Spare Berths 0
Flag Bridge Magazine 252
120 EP Ion Drive (6) Power 120 Fuel Use 63% Signature 120 Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1 000 000 Litres Range 32.3 billion km (91 days at full power)
CIWS-160 (2x4) Range 1000 km TS: 16000 km/s ROF 5 Base 50% To Hit
Loki-5 Missile Launcher (2) Missile Size 5 Rate of Fire 50
Sling-1 AMM Launcher (2) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 10
Beholder-66 Missile Fire Control (1) Range 66.9m km Resolution 60
Anti-Missile Missile Fire Control (1) Range 23.0m km Resolution 1
Anti-Missile Military Search Sensor (1) GPS 32 Range 2.6m km Resolution 1
Short Range Military Search Sensor (1) GPS 320 Range 8.1m km Resolution 10
Standard Military Search Sensor (1) GPS 5760 Range 59.5m km Resolution 60
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
I am not sure if those informations are enough to judge the ship designs, I will try to provide more information if necessary.
1) Welcome onboard Officer..:) we r all lost for this "State of the Art" Steve's program.
Am italian and play from many years..from Starfighter Aid program,in fact..
(and apologize for my horror "english" style..ehhe)
2) Space r void..nobody ear ur scream...:)
3) And learning r a damned hard work in Aurora,so..take ur time,and go into battle..:)
Vae Victis!
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My ships (Science Class) have all more than 240 months.