Aurora 4x
VB6 Aurora => VB6 Mechanics => Topic started by: Polestar on March 02, 2013, 08:33:37 PM
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The recent overhaul of engines has added much coolness to the game, especially the warship side. The changes to fuel consumption, however, have been causing me much heartburn in recent games. Running a galactic economy has gotten . . . expensive.
Let me share a story.
I've discovered a resource-rich world approximately 8 billion km from my factories on Sol. As all closer bodies have no minerals, sparse minerals, low-accessibility minerals, the wrong sort of minerals, or not enough minerals to run my standard game-start factories for more than a few years, this planet must be exploited or my empire will starve within a decade.
The next job is to get mines on it. After years of research, my scientists develop I-C Fusion Drives and reduce fuel consumption to 0. 4 per engine power hour and I develop a capacious (and expensive) freighter capable of hauling 10 mines at ~3000 km/s.
Pre-6. 0, this (or more freighters half the size moving at roughly the same speed) would have been a good solution, and the mines would (eventually) move. It would have cost a lot of minerals, several years of time, and a fair bit of fuel, but the mines would move without bankrupting the empire.
Post-6. 0, this proved to be a megaproject my empire couldn't afford.
1. Moving 60 mines 8 billion km and the empty freighters back again cost me 8. 4 million liters of fuel. 8. 4 million. By comparison, my two Sorium harvesters cost me almost 12,000 to build and yield (on a particularly rich Saturn) 6. 4 million liters of fuel per year. My installation-based Sorium refining capacity is 12. 4 million liters/year, and building that many refineries cost 48,000 Duranium.
2. Building six of these freighters wiped out virtually all my Gallium, which had previously been relatively abundant. These 60 mines, on the richest planet in 15 systems, under the supervision of my best sector and planetary governors, and with the next available tech boost to mining expected to take roughly 3. 5 years (~1270 days) to research, yield enough Gallicite (at 1. 0 accessibility) to build one of the freighters described above in 29 months. It's also worth mentioning the 30- to 60-day delay and additional fuel costs in getting the minerals from the minehead to the factories.
I've rolled back the save and will go with slower freighters based on 0. 30x power drives. This will do much to reduce the Gallium and fuel costs but will mean more time to start mining, more downtime for the mines, and more time to get the minerals to the factories. Since my empire is desperately short of the usual minerals (Duranium, Mercassium, Sorium, Corundum, and now Gallicite), this will hurt. I will not ask civilians to move the mines, because they take half of forever, and I want them making money and paying taxes in inter-planetary trade (on this, more anon).
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That trip takes about a month at that speed, right? Such speed strikes me as excessive for a ship of that size. Though if you can maintain the same speed with the .3 modifier drive that should increase your range by a factor of ~3.5, assuming you were using .5 modifiers before. That would require cutting down on size most likely, but minerals and fuel is the trade you make for fast, large deliveries
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my civvie would have done it free of charge
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i think you are overvaluing speed a little,
make sure you are building size 50 drives for ships that big.
and if you are building commercial vessels that big there isn't really a downside to stepping the fuel multiplier way down and just using lots of really big drives. it drives the tonnage way up, but who cares? The drive I'm using for one of my factions in my current game, for 300-500,000 ton ships, is a 0.3x multiplier size 50. it's got 1.73% fuel boost and only 240 power. But I can just slap on however many I want because they are dirt cheap. As a bonus they drive up HTK ridiculously
Really though you are aiming too low. Get 300 mines on that sucker, at least. Stop fleet training or whatever else is eating up your fuel. Your current freighters can get the job done fine.
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Further analysis:
A tale of three freighters.
Atlas class Freighter 40,000 tons 183 Crew 914 BP TCS 800 TH 2000 EM 0
2500 km/s Armour 1-104 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
MSP 14 Max Repair 50 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months Spare Berths 0
Cargo 25000 Cargo Handling Multiplier 20
Rocketdyne MAGE Booster (10) Power 200 Fuel Use 10.61% Signature 200 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 400,000 Litres Range 17.0 billion km (78 days at full power)
914 bp, able to move a facility at 216 mkm/day. BP-Efficiency rating of about 23.
Atlas - Copy class Freighter 39,850 tons 138 Crew 568 BP TCS 797 TH 1200 EM 0
1505 km/s Armour 1-103 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
MSP 9 Max Repair 36 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months Spare Berths 0
Cargo 25000 Cargo Handling Multiplier 20
Heliosys Stable Booster (5) Power 240 Fuel Use 1.73% Signature 240 Exp 3%
Fuel Capacity 400,000 Litres Range 104.4 billion km (802 days at full power)
568 bp, able tomove a facility at 130 mkm/day. BP-Efficiency rating of... also about 23. However the Atlas Copy uses about 1/6 as much fuel.
that's the difference between a size 25 0.5 boost engine and a size 50 0.3 boost engine.
there is also this version, which stacks on enough 50 HS engines to get the speed back up:
Atlas - Copy2 class Freighter 57,850 tons 243 Crew 910.6 BP TCS 1157 TH 2880 EM 0
2489 km/s Armour 1-133 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
MSP 10 Max Repair 36 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months Spare Berths 1
Cargo 25000 Cargo Handling Multiplier 20
Heliosys Stable Booster (12) Power 240 Fuel Use 1.73% Signature 240 Exp 3%
Fuel Capacity 400,000 Litres Range 71.9 billion km (334 days at full power)
this freighter is less fuel efficient than the slow version, but is as fast/costs the same as the fast version.
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and if you are building commercial vessels that big there isn't really a downside to stepping the fuel multiplier way down and just using lots of really big drives. it drives the tonnage way up, but who cares?
Total ship tonnage applies a factor of (Class Size)^-1 to overall range and to your speed.
Power multiplier applies a factor of (Power Multiplier)^-2.5 to overall range, and straight (Power Multiplier) into your speed.
And since your engines will be small compared to your total class size you won't have to worry about running up against the naked engine's power to weight ratio, so you can make up the speed while vastly improving your fuel efficiency, as Shoe demonstrated.
Exponents are fun~
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Part of the answer to my sad story turns out, as hinted at above, to "go to the Civilian/Ind Status" tab, and issue order to Supply and Demand Mines on the planets you want to move them from and to. I do not know how to move minerals this way yet.
Civilians are slow, but not unconscionably so, and the fuel they consume doesn't come out of the government's pocket. I'm not sure where it comes from, if civilians even run out of fuel, or what happens if they do.
I also haven't heard any complaints from them the one time I stole fuel from the fuel harvesters they love to cluster around suitable gas giants. . .
However, civilians have limitations. Except by asking and waiting, you don't know how much transport ability they have (capacity per day), on the route you want served, at the time you want the stuff moved. It's much easier to plan ahead if you have your own ships Also, if you don't occupy too much of their attention with orders, your civilians will be left free to earn taxes for you.
So, let's get some freighters outbound!
Here's my current large freighter design (tech level: I-C Fusion, x0. 40 fuel consumption). It uses more Duranium and requires a larger space yard to build than a design of the same speed and capacity based on x0. 50 power drives (all drives at maximal size, of course), but needs a lot less Gallicite, costs less, and - most importantly - consumes a more affordable amount of fuel. In the next iteration, I might add more engines of the same type to recover some of the lost speed (as pointed out by TheDeadlyShoe).
Navagatio class Freighter 357,250 tons 874 Crew 3403 BP TCS 7145 TH 12000 EM 0
1679 km/s Armour 1-448 Shields 0-0 Sensors 6/6/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
MSP 6 Max Repair 100 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months Spare Berths 3
Cargo 250000 Cargo Handling Multiplier 100 Tractor Beam
Astra Permanere (P300, C0.01) (40) Power 300 Fuel Use 0.99% Signature 300 Exp 3%
Fuel Capacity 1,000,000 Litres Range 50.9 billion km (350 days at full power)
Thermal Sensor TH1-6 (1) Sensitivity 6 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 6m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-6 (1) Sensitivity 6 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 6m km
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
For comparison, here's the design that bankrupted my empire:
Imperialis fiscali cladis class Freighter 374,550 tons 1399 Crew 7524 BP TCS 7491 TH 22500 EM 0
3003 km/s Armour 1-462 Shields 0-0 Sensors 6/6/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
MSP 13 Max Repair 125 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months Spare Berths 1
Cargo 250000 Cargo Handling Multiplier 100 Tractor Beam
Astra Navagatio (P500, C0.035) (45) Power 500 Fuel Use 3.54% (ed: ouch!) Signature 500 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 5,000,000 Litres Range 67.9 billion km (261 days at full power)
Thermal Sensor TH1-6 (1) Sensitivity 6 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 6m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-6 (1) Sensitivity 6 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 6m km
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
The issue I still have with the version 6 changes is that, for commercial ships, the trade-off between build cost, fuel cost, and move-the-stuff-ability has become much less favorable, which makes operating a multi-system economy even more like swimming uphill, through molasses.
Unless you rely on civilians, which poses problems of its own - like not knowing, except by asking and waiting, how much move-the-stuff they can currently do, how quickly.
Let's compare pre v6 to post v6 freighters (relatively fast, but the speed is perfectly affordable in pre v6 games, and besides if I want slow I can use civilians). Similar comments apply when moving colonists, etc. Tech is the same, speed is the same, transport ability is the same, and extra abilities are the same.
Pre v6:
Merchant Adventurer class Freighter 362,250 tons 2555 Crew 6732 BP TCS 7239 TH 21750 EM 0
3002 km/s Armour 1-452 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
Maint Capacity 12 MSP Max Repair 100 MSP
Cargo 250000 Tractor Beam
Merchant Adventurer (P250, C0.04) (87) Power 250 Fuel Use 4% Signature 250 Armour 0 Exp 1%
Fuel Capacity 500,000 Litres Range 62.2 billion km (239 days at full power)
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
Post v6:
Ieiunium Navigatio class Freighter 520,150 tons 1830 Crew 6744 BP TCS 10403 TH 31200 EM 0
2999 km/s Armour 1-576 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
MSP 8 Max Repair 100 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months Spare Berths 0
Cargo 250000 Cargo Handling Multiplier 100 Tractor Beam
Astra Permanere (P300, C0.01) (104) Power 300 Fuel Use 0.99% Signature 300 Exp 3%
Fuel Capacity 2,000,000 Litres Range 69.9 billion km (269 days at full power)
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
The post v6 freighter consumes almost 4 times the fuel per ton-kilometer, despite using highly efficient engines (max size, x0. 30 power). Because its engines are so much bigger for their thrust (the trade-off for the above), they take up an enormous amount of space, which drives up hull size by more than 40%. The only way to make this trade-off a little less bad (at a given tech level) is to drop speed.
Matters are not helped by the loss of Hyper Drives, which, painstaking to use and prone to abuse as they were, opened up vaster reaches of outer space to exploitation that in recent versions of the game are impracticably distant.
It comes hard to have my space-wings clipped like this.
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I also haven't heard any complaints from them the one time I stole fuel from the fuel harvesters they love to cluster around suitable gas giants.
You didn't get that fuel for free, you did pay for it. Next time you fuel up from one of them, look at your Wealth/expenses and you'll see something like "Purchase of Civilian fuel".
I've noticed that if you don't have too many other destinations for your civilians to go, they will happily ship whatever installations to whatever location you like, as long as they can reach it. But once you get a plethora of places for them to ship to, they may ignore your installation ship requests, especially if it takes them way out of the way. AFAIK they don't ship minerals, and there's no way to request them to do that.
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Civies ship normaly only over 4 Jumps. Everything else you have to chain up. Nevertheless normally they ship everything you want them to ship with top priority. Where you might run into problems is that they do that sequentially thus they work on just one task and not multiple simultaneously.
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You didn't get that fuel for free, you did pay for it. Next time you fuel up from one of them, look at your Wealth/expenses and you'll see something like "Purchase of Civilian fuel".
I can't find any such entry after another round of "special fuel taxation". I suspect that manual transfers using the individual unit interface aren't recorded.
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at ~3000 km/s.
Yep. Try 1/4th that speed. on the plus side engines are dirt cheap with the EP reductions, and at that speed don't really consume fuel, so you can build lots and lots of freighters.
Here is the freighter design that I'm using:
Eternal Diligence III class Freighter 77,700 tons 220 Crew 689.4 BP TCS 1554 TH 420 EM 0
772 km/s Armour 1-162 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
MSP 6 Max Repair 21 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months Spare Berths 1
Cargo 50000 Cargo Handling Multiplier 50
Commercial 120 EP Ion Drive (10) Power 120 Fuel Use 0.54% Signature 42 Exp 2%
Fuel Capacity 260,000 Litres Range 111.5 billion km (1671 days at full power)
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
I've got about 120 of these running around, and I'm finding that pushing the Fuel efficiency modifiers is very much worthwhile for the kind of civilian traffic I have. The next revision can travel 5km/s faster, but uses fuel at about 40% of the rate that this one does.
Another thing to look at, for your immediate mining needs are asteroid miners. Those are actually useful in that they don't suck down fuel compared to moving mines around to asteroids and comets.
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I can't find any such entry after another round of "special fuel taxation". I suspect that manual transfers using the individual unit interface aren't recorded.
If you use the miscellanous tab and just remove the fuel from their tanks you get it for free (I did this once by accident).
If you send a tanker or other ship to them and use the order "refuel from target fleet" you pay.
You can tell exactly how much shipping the civillians have as well. It is listed in the button for civillian shipping firms but also when you set up your contracts, there is a screen in the corner that lists all civillian ships. If you put up a contract it will be taken and it will take approximately several days on either side longer than it will take the civillian freighters to move the distance.
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If you use the miscellanous tab and just remove the fuel from their tanks you get it for free (I did this once by accident).
Fixed for v6.30. Civ ships will no longer appear in the list of ships in the same location.
Steve
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The main thing you need to consider for v6.21 or later is that you need to produce a lot more fuel in the first place. For example, the British Empire is my current game has ten freighters with one hold and fifteen freighters with two holds, or the equivalent of four of your giant freighters. I also have twenty-four 82,000 ton fuel harvesters in addition to my planetary-based refineries. Start building-up your fuel-producing infrastructure early in the game. There are a lot more gas giants now with good accessibility Sorium and the intention is that they should be the source of the majority of your fuel.
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As an aside , does anyone bother with duty time / crew morale on their commercial ships . I have Fuel Harvesters that take from 18-24 months to fill 90% of their bunkers. After they have dropped 90% of the fuel off at Earth I have to let them wait for about 3 months in Earth's orbit to reduce the duty time of the crew to zero before sending them out to mine Sorium once more.
DavidR
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As an aside , does anyone bother with duty time / crew morale on their commercial ships . I have Fuel Harvesters that take from 18-24 months to fill 90% of their bunkers. After they have dropped 90% of the fuel off at Earth I have to let them wait for about 3 months in Earth's orbit to reduce the duty time of the crew to zero before sending them out to mine Sorium once more.
DavidR
Commercial ships are not effected by morale.
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Well, most commercial ships. Geosurvey craft need to keep their morale up.
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As an aside , does anyone bother with duty time / crew morale on their commercial ships . I have Fuel Harvesters that take from 18-24 months to fill 90% of their bunkers. After they have dropped 90% of the fuel off at Earth I have to let them wait for about 3 months in Earth's orbit to reduce the duty time of the crew to zero before sending them out to mine Sorium once more.
DavidR
I usually make my asteroid miners / sorium harvesters with a 24 month crew time, but that's for vague RP / handwavium reasons. Even with that I never bring them home for shore leave. Civilian fleet-support ships usually get a similar crew time to their fleets and hang out with them for shore leave anyway.
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The main thing you need to consider for v6.21 or later is that you need to produce a lot more fuel in the first place. For example, the British Empire is my current game has ten freighters with one hold and fifteen freighters with two holds, or the equivalent of four of your giant freighters. I also have twenty-four 82,000 ton fuel harvesters in addition to my planetary-based refineries. Start building-up your fuel-producing infrastructure early in the game. There are a lot more gas giants now with good accessibility Sorium and the intention is that they should be the source of the majority of your fuel.
Before 6.21 fuel was not much of a concern and that was probably not right. Now it seems fuel has become the #1 overriding concern, at least for me and I don't necessarily think that's right either. I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way on fuel consumption. Just my opinion.
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SteelChicken,
Yes but even on Commercial Ships the crew time on duty increases and to be fair to the personnel you control , even commercial personnel should be given shore leave after,say,every 24 months to reduce the time shown spent in space .
DavidR
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Without using any hard numbers my internal logic:
I think that fuel being #1 concern is spot on. If I may use current spaceflight doctrine as the seed idea. The primary element in spacecraft development today is the transportation of enough fuel to get you anywhere productive. If we contemplate how much fuel is expended in getting a craft just the size of the Shuttle (4.4m lbs, with only a payload capacity of 65000 lbs) off of the surface to LEO it stands to reason that getting a craft of the scale represented in Auroa to move around in space would also be astronomical.