Post by: Kurt on June 18, 2007, 11:04:54 AM
It seems to me that survey groups have three more-or-less necessary roles that must be filled, and several other "optional" roles:
1. Jump capability
2. Geo survey capability
3. Grav survey capability
the optionals are:
4. Courier
5. warship escort
My question is, how do people usually fill these roles in their survey squadrons? Has anyone ever tried to build a multi-role survey/jump ship? Theoretically, one ship could fill all three of the main roles.
My standard survey squadrons are generally composed of one jump ship, that is usually configured to do either geo or grav survey as well, and one to two each of grav and geo survey ships. No escort, no courier. I have not been satisfied with this lately, though. It always seems like either the grav survey ships are waiting, or the geo survey ships are waiting.
Also, while equipping the jump ship with survey instruments increases their utility, it also increases the risk that if there is something hunting the survey squadron, it will get all of them by default if it gets the jump ship. While the jump ship can be used as a courier, if it has survey instruments they are wasted, and if it is the only jump ship with the group, then while it is gone running back to base to report, the rest of the group is stranded.
I have played around with deploying seperate geo and grav survey groups, which seems to be more efficient once you've surveyed the systems adjacent to your home system, but I'm not sure it is the best way to do things, and it does impose a higher overhead in that it requires more jump ships
As for the 'optional' roles, a military escort fills an obvious need, but most of the time you can get away without one, as long as you are willing to take a risk.
The courier, though, is a role that has been bothering me more and more. After all, no information can get back to base unless there is a jump capable ship to carry it. This means either sending the squadron jump ship back alone, sending the entire group back, or building a small jump-capable ship to act as a courier. Unfortunately, a purpose-built courier is not only difficult, but dubious as well. Without higher jump engine efficiencies, small jump drives are problematic, and even if they weren't, is it a good idea to include a ship with the squadron that is too small to allow other ships to transit along with it? The alternative, though, is just including a second full-size jump ship and letting it act as courier and "warp-point guard", which is a waste of a full-sized jump-ship with survey instruments.
I am going to have to think about this situation for a while. Trying to fill all of the roles could end up meaning a huge survey squadron with limited survey capability.
Kurt
Post by: Erik L on June 18, 2007, 12:54:53 PM
These ships usually mass around 6000 tons. Without the jump drive, and a dedicated tender, I could get them down to the 4000 ton range.
My reasoning behind the jump drive is my survey fleets have been jumped by Precursors too often. Usually the first ship to go is the jump tender. This way, one ship should be able (hopefully) to escape.
The only time I've used them as couriers is if they were in for a refit/resupply and their outbound leg takes them through the system I need an officer on.
Post by: Kurt on June 18, 2007, 04:46:57 PM
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
I build (mostly) specialized survey ships, either geo or grav and stick them in their own fleets. That way, once one survey is done, they move on to the next without having to wait on the other half. Each ship also mounts a jump drive.
These ships usually mass around 6000 tons. Without the jump drive, and a dedicated tender, I could get them down to the 4000 ton range.
My reasoning behind the jump drive is my survey fleets have been jumped by Precursors too often. Usually the first ship to go is the jump tender. This way, one ship should be able (hopefully) to escape.
The only time I've used them as couriers is if they were in for a refit/resupply and their outbound leg takes them through the system I need an officer on.
Hmmm...so each ship has its own jump drive, huh? That would certainly deal with the problems associated with just having one ship acting as a jump tender, but it is a lot of duplication, and, I suspect, a lot more expensive. You are correct, though, it reduces wait times to nothing.
The more I think about it, though, the more I think a survey fleet should have either a courier, or at least have a jump capble ship check in periodically. After all, my survey fleets usually have enough fuel and spares to operate for several years away from base. In game terms that is easily do-able, however, in reality, having a significant force out of touch for that amount of time is untenable. After all, what if the one jump ship in the squadron suffered a mechanical casualty in their jump drive and was unable to repair it (or was attacked and destroyed). If they had ventured into previously unexplored territory, weren't expected back for years, and never reported their position and survey results, then they are all screwed <G>.
In your case, where it sounds like all of your ships are equipped with jump engines, the odds of them all failing or being destroyed is much less, however, with no courier they can't report their survey results or current location back to base without detaching a survey ship.
In more practical terms, lets say a grav survey ship surveys several systems down a chain, then encounters and is destroyed by a precursor or NPR. While you, as the spacemaster, know what happened, in reality, because your ship never checked in with base, your race would not only not have any idea what happened to the ship, they wouldn't even know the results of any surveys it performed. The chain would be unknown to the home base. The race should lose all data gained by that survey ship, and shouldn't go looking for it until long after it should have checked in, with was probably left vague.
If there was a courier that was left at the warp point, it would be essentially undetectable, and so would be able to escape if anything happened. It would also be able to report back the results of any survey without forcing the survey unit to return each time, wasting valuable survey resources.
Kurt
Post by: sloanjh on June 18, 2007, 09:50:57 PM
1) My warp survey ships are all jump-capable (6000 tons at efficiency 4).
2) My geo-survey ships are NOT jump-capable. The come in two flavors depending on whether they're hyper-capable or not. The hyper-capable ones mass 6000 tons and are somewhat slower than the jump ships (5333 vs. 6000). The non-hyper capable ones are significantly smaller and faster (~3000 tons at 7500 km/s).
3) All survey ships (warp and geo) have size-5, strength-3 (15 sensor points) passive sensors. This is so they know if they're in a "first contact" situation.
4) I have "picket" (non-jump capable) ships as well, which are essentially just 2 engines and the same 15 sensor point passives (~1400 tons). Their job is to monitor the "near" side of a WP waiting for BEMs (or Precursors if I've discovered them down the chain) to come through - they sit with engines down at the detection radius for a strength ~400 contact. Hopefully there's a jump-capable ship on the same side of the next WP up the chain so they can get a message up-chain when something does come through. They also now have a small (size-1 strength 2) grav-pulse detector (since they're lying doggo, there's actually a chance someone might be looking for them with actives).
5) I recently started creating "courier" ships. I'd like for them to be a picket with a jump drive, but the minimum drive size is 15, so I go ahead and make them big enough to handle my geo-survey ships (since I buy up to 4x drives). These have passives but no grav-pulse detector (wasn't worth the performance trade-off). Their role is to lie doggo at the entry point to a picketed system in case the pickets detect something coming in.
My survey SOP is to never have a lone ship surveying the system, and to always have a jump ship available. If it's a geo-probe, I position a jump-ship at the WP (it might survey some nearby survey positions if they're far away from the inner system). If it's a WP survey with 2 ships I'll either have one at the WP and one surveying or both surveying (assuming if one gets into trouble the other will be able to escape). In this case I like to have more ships in-system. Essentially the only ships I ever leave out of contact with a jump ship are pickets in low-risk systems (i.e. no known precursors down the chain they're picketing).
Best,
John
Post by: Michael Sandy on June 18, 2007, 10:49:30 PM
Jump tenders have size 15 jump drives, survey ships have 2 survey sensors and either size 5 sensors, or size 2 sensors and an extra engineering system, on the grounds that more expensive ships should have more maintenance supplies.
I figure that until there is a lot of space-born industry and important resources coming in, there won't be much political support for getting into a war just to protect a claim to uninhabited rocks. So early exploration fleets will be as armed as the Apollo program ships were.
I want small jump tenders so I can have a _lot_ of them, so they can probe many warp points as they are discovered.
How intense a scout program I would develop depends on Uridium supplies.
My philosophy is generally develop missile technology first. The highest resource concentration is the homeworld, after all. The expectation would generally be that a race just leaving its homeworld would either encounter civilizations that had not yet left their home systems, or those who had left for a significantly greater time. The odds of two races encountering each other that had _both_ discovered warp points within the last decade or so would be seen as statistically insignificant.
Therefore, if aliens were encountered, if they were confined to a home system, our guys would have time to build up before a conflict, and if they weren't confined to a home system, our philosophy would make conquering us sufficiently expensive that the aliens would be more likely to just impose onerous terms restricting our expansion.
Naturally, a decade or two into our expansion, philosophies would change. Our space forces would have more confidence in themselves, their would be industrial/political interests involved in claiming and protecting various spots, requiring fleet presences their beyond mere unarmed scouts.
Once Precursors are encountered, theories about likely alien races would shift. The prospect of encountering races that gave up on expansion because of the hazards of Precursor encounters would be more plausible. Races that decided to ration their limited resources and not expand their economies to the limit. Those races would likely be more aggressive in protecting their few extra solar mining outposts. And be more aggressive about following up unarmed alien explorers.
Post by: Erik L on June 19, 2007, 09:14:40 AM
Quote from: "sloanjh"
2) My geo-survey ships are NOT jump-capable. The come in two flavors depending on whether they're hyper-capable or not. The hyper-capable ones mass 6000 tons and are somewhat slower than the jump ships (5333 vs. 6000). The non-hyper capable ones are significantly smaller and faster (~3000 tons at 7500 km/s).
3) All survey ships (warp and geo) have size-5, strength-3 (15 sensor points) passive sensors. This is so they know if they're in a "first contact" situation.
That is a bit more advanced than my survey ships start at. I've been toying with adding one of my fleet scouts to the survey fleets. The scouts have best sensors of all types available.
Post by: Steve Walmsley on June 19, 2007, 10:33:18 AM
I am very happy though that there doesn't seem to be a 'best' strategy
Steve
Post by: Kurt on June 19, 2007, 10:48:09 AM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
I have tried a few different approaches to this but my current strategy is to build specialised grav or geo survey ships that all include their own jump engines. While this is more expensive it does provide much greater flexibility. I also tend to build one or more fast jump-capable couriers that can double as long range scout ships.
I am very happy though that there doesn't seem to be a 'best' strategy
Steve
I have been playing around with jump-capable survey ships since reading Erik's reply to my initial message. I'm very happy with the flexibility this strategy brings, but I'm still concerned about the communications issue. I think that this is just something that I'm going to have to factor in as a risk for survey groups.
The part that concerns me is that generally, in my universes at least, my survey groups go out for an undefined amount of time, usually based on how long they can continue to work before running out of spares or fuel. During this time they generally don't check back in with the home base, unless they make a major re-deployment to another warp chain. This means that the home base would have no idea that they are missing, if they got into trouble, until they were at least a year or more overdue. The alternatives are either checking in periodically, and wasting fuel, time, and spares, or including a scout/courier that can return and check in regularly to let the home base know nothing is wrong.
Kurt
Post by: Steve Walmsley on June 19, 2007, 11:01:48 AM
Quote from: "Kurt"
I have been playing around with jump-capable survey ships since reading Erik's reply to my initial message. I'm very happy with the flexibility this strategy brings, but I'm still concerned about the communications issue. I think that this is just something that I'm going to have to factor in as a risk for survey groups.
The part that concerns me is that generally, in my universes at least, my survey groups go out for an undefined amount of time, usually based on how long they can continue to work before running out of spares or fuel. During this time they generally don't check back in with the home base, unless they make a major re-deployment to another warp chain. This means that the home base would have no idea that they are missing, if they got into trouble, until they were at least a year or more overdue. The alternatives are either checking in periodically, and wasting fuel, time, and spares, or including a scout/courier that can return and check in regularly to let the home base know nothing is wrong.
This is very similar to the age of sail when ships could be out of contact with home for years at a time. Captains and fleet commanders had a lot of responsibility and might even get their nation into a war that no one at home knew about for several months. Of course, the communication aspect of Aurora is not built into the game system anywhere apart from my own rule that only jump gates allow communication. There are a few alternatives to the current system that I have considered.
1) Allow all ships to remain in communication through some type of technobabble long range comm system
2) Have a new tech line for 'hypercom' communication systems, with both ground-based and ship-based systems. These permit instant communication between any two pops/ships equipped with the system over any distance. This would be a very large system initially but would reduce in size as technology improved. This might also not appear for ships until a while after it appeared for pops.
3) Some type of jump-capable drone, similar to Starfire courier drones. The problem here would be explaining why these drones could jump but the minimum size for a ship's jump drive is 15 HS and also why you couldn't put a warhead on them, so this is probably not a realistic option.
4) Mini-jump gates that don't allow ships to pass through them but do allow communications.
Steve
Post by: Erik L on June 19, 2007, 11:28:29 AM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Kurt"I have been playing around with jump-capable survey ships since reading Erik's reply to my initial message. I'm very happy with the flexibility this strategy brings, but I'm still concerned about the communications issue. I think that this is just something that I'm going to have to factor in as a risk for survey groups.This is very similar to the age of sail when ships could be out of contact with home for years at a time. Captains and fleet commanders had a lot of responsibility and might even get their nation into a war that no one at home knew about for several months. Of course, the communication aspect of Aurora is not built into the game system anywhere apart from my own rule that only jump gates allow communication. There are a few alternatives to the current system that I have considered.
The part that concerns me is that generally, in my universes at least, my survey groups go out for an undefined amount of time, usually based on how long they can continue to work before running out of spares or fuel. During this time they generally don't check back in with the home base, unless they make a major re-deployment to another warp chain. This means that the home base would have no idea that they are missing, if they got into trouble, until they were at least a year or more overdue. The alternatives are either checking in periodically, and wasting fuel, time, and spares, or including a scout/courier that can return and check in regularly to let the home base know nothing is wrong.
1) Allow all ships to remain in communication through some type of technobabble long range comm system
2) Have a new tech line for 'hypercom' communication systems, with both ground-based and ship-based systems. These permit instant communication between any two pops/ships equipped with the system over any distance. This would be a very large system initially but would reduce in size as technology improved. This might also not appear for ships until a while after it appeared for pops.
3) Some type of jump-capable drone, similar to Starfire courier drones. The problem here would be explaining why these drones could jump but the minimum size for a ship's jump drive is 15 HS and also why you couldn't put a warhead on them, so this is probably not a realistic option.
4) Mini-jump gates that don't allow ships to pass through them but do allow communications.
Steve
I vote for Option 2.
Post by: Kurt on June 19, 2007, 03:36:56 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
1) Allow all ships to remain in communication through some type of technobabble long range comm system
2) Have a new tech line for 'hypercom' communication systems, with both ground-based and ship-based systems. These permit instant communication between any two pops/ships equipped with the system over any distance. This would be a very large system initially but would reduce in size as technology improved. This might also not appear for ships until a while after it appeared for pops.
3) Some type of jump-capable drone, similar to Starfire courier drones. The problem here would be explaining why these drones could jump but the minimum size for a ship's jump drive is 15 HS and also why you couldn't put a warhead on them, so this is probably not a realistic option.
4) Mini-jump gates that don't allow ships to pass through them but do allow communications.
Steve
Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about this situation, I'm just noting that lack of communications is a problem that must be accounted for in your deployments. In fact, I like the situation as it is, and wouldn't want to see anything like a "hyper-com" until very late in the game.
Kurt
Post by: Erik L on June 19, 2007, 04:20:36 PM
Quote from: "Kurt"
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
1) Allow all ships to remain in communication through some type of technobabble long range comm system
2) Have a new tech line for 'hypercom' communication systems, with both ground-based and ship-based systems. These permit instant communication between any two pops/ships equipped with the system over any distance. This would be a very large system initially but would reduce in size as technology improved. This might also not appear for ships until a while after it appeared for pops.
3) Some type of jump-capable drone, similar to Starfire courier drones. The problem here would be explaining why these drones could jump but the minimum size for a ship's jump drive is 15 HS and also why you couldn't put a warhead on them, so this is probably not a realistic option.
4) Mini-jump gates that don't allow ships to pass through them but do allow communications.
Steve
Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about this situation, I'm just noting that lack of communications is a problem that must be accounted for in your deployments. In fact, I like the situation as it is, and wouldn't want to see anything like a "hyper-com" until very late in the game.
Kurt
Maybe in addition to size, early versions take longer over distance, i.e. 1 jump = 1 month time and scale it down as the technology progresses.
Post by: sloanjh on June 19, 2007, 08:44:09 PM
Quote from: "Kurt"
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
1) Allow all ships to remain in communication through some type of technobabble long range comm system
2) Have a new tech line for 'hypercom' communication systems, with both ground-based and ship-based systems. These permit instant communication between any two pops/ships equipped with the system over any distance. This would be a very large system initially but would reduce in size as technology improved. This might also not appear for ships until a while after it appeared for pops.
3) Some type of jump-capable drone, similar to Starfire courier drones. The problem here would be explaining why these drones could jump but the minimum size for a ship's jump drive is 15 HS and also why you couldn't put a warhead on them, so this is probably not a realistic option.
4) Mini-jump gates that don't allow ships to pass through them but do allow communications.
Steve
Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about this situation, I'm just noting that lack of communications is a problem that must be accounted for in your deployments. In fact, I like the situation as it is, and wouldn't want to see anything like a "hyper-com" until very late in the game.
Kurt
I agree with Kurt - the jump-gate network already acts as a very expensive long-range communication system. If you feel this is an issue that needs to be addressed, I actually like this option:
3a) Cut minimum jump-drive size to 10 (or even 5) HS.
(surprise surprise
) This would allow one to build low-cost "message sloops" that would still have to carry the message between systems or be deployed as a chain of pickets.Another idea: ooops - that was your #4. I really like this one, since it's a low-maintenance version of the chain of pickets, with a lot less bookkeeping.
This brings up a couple of questions about jump gates:
A) If I've got a jump gate on only one side of a WP, which way(s) does the communications link run? I've been thinking it's "from the gate side to the other side"
B) Do the jump gates report when something transits them? In other words, do I need to stick a picket next to them to see bad guys go through?
C) Do the jump gates have sensors? This is pretty much the same as the last question - if I were building one, I'd have a set of passives on each side so I knew what was in the neighborhood.
Thanks,
John
Post by: sloanjh on June 19, 2007, 08:47:55 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Kurt"I have been playing around with jump-capable survey ships since reading Erik's reply to my initial message. I'm very happy with the flexibility this strategy brings, but I'm still concerned about the communications issue. I think that this is just something that I'm going to have to factor in as a risk for survey groups.This is very similar to the age of sail when ships could be out of contact with home for years at a time. Captains and fleet commanders had a lot of responsibility and might even get their nation into a war that no one at home knew about for several months.
The part that concerns me is that generally, in my universes at least, my survey groups go out for an undefined amount of time, usually based on how long they can continue to work before running out of spares or fuel. During this time they generally don't check back in with the home base, unless they make a major re-deployment to another warp chain. This means that the home base would have no idea that they are missing, if they got into trouble, until they were at least a year or more overdue. The alternatives are either checking in periodically, and wasting fuel, time, and spares, or including a scout/courier that can return and check in regularly to let the home base know nothing is wrong.
Steve
My jump ships are doing a lot of running home to "report in" (and refuel) - much more than would happen in an optimal planned economy. I'm role-playing the fact that home base would want to know what was going on, and would design SOP to avoid a "missing, presumed lost" situation.
John
Post by: Steve Walmsley on June 20, 2007, 08:08:18 AM
Quote from: "sloanjh"
This brings up a couple of questions about jump gates:
A) If I've got a jump gate on only one side of a WP, which way(s) does the communications link run? I've been thinking it's "from the gate side to the other side"
B) Do the jump gates report when something transits them? In other words, do I need to stick a picket next to them to see bad guys go through?
C) Do the jump gates have sensors? This is pretty much the same as the last question - if I were building one, I'd have a set of passives on each side so I knew what was in the neighborhood.
Jump gates only allow communication when there is one of each side of a jump point. If you look at the galactic map (F11), the communication links are in red rather than green. Jump gates have no sensors and as of v1.7 can be used by anyone. As there is no longer 'ownership' of jump gates after they have been built, that wouldn't fit in with sensor reports.
What I usually do is try and find some convenient asteroids or comets and seed them with deep space tracking stations to keep an eye on traffic within my empire. Three or four DSTS on an asteroid provide good coverage and are very difficult for an opponent to detect. Even then, you could add a few missile silos in case anyone gets too curious
Steve
Post by: sloanjh on June 20, 2007, 07:40:23 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Jump gates only allow communication when there is one of each side of a jump point. If you look at the galactic map (F11), the communication links are in red rather than green. Jump gates have no sensors and as of v1.7 can be used by anyone. As there is no longer 'ownership' of jump gates after they have been built, that wouldn't fit in with sensor reports.
So THAT's what the red lines mean! I figured it just meant the jump point was fully exploited (i.e. allowed 2-way traffic), which is indistinguishable from what you said
Thanks,
John
Post by: Kurt on June 22, 2007, 03:25:46 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "sloanjh"This brings up a couple of questions about jump gates:Jump gates only allow communication when there is one of each side of a jump point. If you look at the galactic map (F11), the communication links are in red rather than green. Jump gates have no sensors and as of v1.7 can be used by anyone. As there is no longer 'ownership' of jump gates after they have been built, that wouldn't fit in with sensor reports.
A) If I've got a jump gate on only one side of a WP, which way(s) does the communications link run? I've been thinking it's "from the gate side to the other side"
B) Do the jump gates report when something transits them? In other words, do I need to stick a picket next to them to see bad guys go through?
C) Do the jump gates have sensors? This is pretty much the same as the last question - if I were building one, I'd have a set of passives on each side so I knew what was in the neighborhood.
What I usually do is try and find some convenient asteroids or comets and seed them with deep space tracking stations to keep an eye on traffic within my empire. Three or four DSTS on an asteroid provide good coverage and are very difficult for an opponent to detect. Even then, you could add a few missile silos in case anyone gets too curious
Steve
Wait, are you guys saying that emplacing jump gates means that I can communicate through that warp point, as long as there are gates on each side? Or is it just that ships (with messages) can transit gates without jump engines?
And I really, really like your idea of putting listening posts, or even missile silos on an asteroid or moon of an otherwise uninhabited area. Sneaky.
Kurt
Post by: sloanjh on June 23, 2007, 12:03:53 AM
Quote from: "Kurt"
Wait, are you guys saying that emplacing jump gates means that I can communicate through that warp point, as long as there are gates on each side? Or is it just that ships (with messages) can transit gates without jump engines?
Light-speed communications. I'm pretty sure Steve doesn't have any mechanisms in the game to enforce it (except the red line on the galactic map
), but for role-playing purposes my understanding that the jump gate pair picks up the message in one system and rebroadcasts it in the next one.This just made me realize that I'm a little confused how the communications work in 1.7. I've been assuming I could tell the gate to send a directional signal in the next system (rather than just blaring out to everyone in the system), but if no-one owns the gates that doesn't seem quite right.
John
Post by: Steve Walmsley on June 23, 2007, 06:23:27 AM
Quote from: "Kurt"
Wait, are you guys saying that emplacing jump gates means that I can communicate through that warp point, as long as there are gates on each side? Or is it just that ships (with messages) can transit gates without jump engines?
Yes, if you have jump gates on either side of a jump point they will relay communication like the old Starfire DSB-cc. If you look at the galactic map (F11), some of the systems are connected with red lines. Any unit or pop can instantly communicate with any other unit or pop in a different system as long as they can trace a route along the red lines. To make things easier, Aurora assumes FTL comms are used.
Steve
Post by: Steve Walmsley on June 23, 2007, 06:39:41 AM
Quote from: "sloanjh"
Quote from: "Kurt"This just made me realize that I'm a little confused how the communications work in 1.7. I've been assuming I could tell the gate to send a directional signal in the next system (rather than just blaring out to everyone in the system), but if no-one owns the gates that doesn't seem quite right.
Your assumption is correct. However, as you say, if no one owns the gates that doesn't seem right. For gameplay purposes I need to gates to allow ships of any race to transit and also to allow communications. I can see two possible explanations but I am open to suggestions.
1) Jump gates broadcast omnidirectionally but there are trillions of 'wavelengths' in the hyperspace comm bands so its pretty much impossible for another race to detect your communications (unless they find out the wavelength - espionage?).
2) Jump gates have to be constructed in a very precise shape to maintain the open jump point. Therefore, its is possible to send a message into the gate at a very specific point and know (from complex maths ) the direction in which the signal will emerge.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both. The advantage of 1) is that it is simple and you dont need to know the exact location of the message recipient. However, any message would presumably resonate through the entire network (unless I can think of a technobabble reason why only certain gates would pick up the message and pass it on). For 2), that provides much better message security but how do you know the exact location of the recipient if its is a ship on survey duty? Although I guess ships could be sending their position through the network on a regular basis so that others could communicate with them.
Steve
Post by: sloanjh on June 23, 2007, 01:09:38 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "sloanjh"This just made me realize that I'm a little confused how the communications work in 1.7. I've been assuming I could tell the gate to send a directional signal in the next system (rather than just blaring out to everyone in the system), but if no-one owns the gates that doesn't seem quite right.Your assumption is correct. However, as you say, if no one owns the gates that doesn't seem right. For gameplay purposes I need to gates to allow ships of any race to transit and also to allow communications. I can see two possible explanations but I am open to suggestions.
1) Jump gates broadcast omnidirectionally but there are trillions of 'wavelengths' in the hyperspace comm bands so its pretty much impossible for another race to detect your communications (unless they find out the wavelength - espionage?).
2) Jump gates have to be constructed in a very precise shape to maintain the open jump point. Therefore, its is possible to send a message into the gate at a very specific point and know (from complex maths ) the direction in which the signal will emerge.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both. The advantage of 1) is that it is simple and you dont need to know the exact location of the message recipient. However, any message would presumably resonate through the entire network (unless I can think of a technobabble reason why only certain gates would pick up the message and pass it on). For 2), that provides much better message security but how do you know the exact location of the recipient if its is a ship on survey duty? Although I guess ships could be sending their position through the network on a regular basis so that others could communicate with them.
Steve
The picture I had in my mind was that a jump gate could be thought of as having an "ICN WP-relay station" (in Starfire terms) associated with it. Rather than using courier drones to pass between relay stations on either side of the WP, the gate opens a wormhole and radios through (hence the question about WPs where only one side has a gate). In other words, I pictured in-system communications as being radio/comm laser/other electromagnetic, with the gates doing the equivalent of transferring the message from a receiver station in one system to a transmitter station in the other. The comm station construction activity and cost is simply buried in the overall cost of the gate.
How about this idea - gates are always "on" (allow transit), but only the building race (or another race that has built/attached its own "com shack" to each side of the gate) can use it for communications? This solves the technobabble problems of "how do I figure out someone else's protocol for sending a directional signal" and "how do I know where a moving ship is" - there's a facility at the gate that was built by you, so you can give it directions and the moving ship can register its location (and/or query for messages being held in a message buffer). I don't know that you actually have to put a "comm shack" object into the game - it's probably cheap enough that it can just be role-played.
John
PS - fixed quoting from previous message
Post by: Steve Walmsley on June 26, 2007, 06:59:50 AM
Quote from: "sloanjh"
How about this idea - gates are always "on" (allow transit), but only the building race (or another race that has built/attached its own "com shack" to each side of the gate) can use it for communications? This solves the technobabble problems of "how do I figure out someone else's protocol for sending a directional signal" and "how do I know where a moving ship is" - there's a facility at the gate that was built by you, so you can give it directions and the moving ship can register its location (and/or query for messages being held in a message buffer). I don't know that you actually have to put a "comm shack" object into the game - it's probably cheap enough that it can just be role-played.
That would still entail having jump gates owned by a particular race. For gameplay reasons I would prefer them to be usuable by all in all respects, like jump gates in Babylon 5 or Stargates from SG1. One of the reasons is trade but another is that if jump gates are 'owned' and that ownership confers an advantage there is a good reason to go around blowing up other people's jump gates and replacing them with your own. I hope that there may be a 'civilised' area of a galaxy in some campaigns where races are going to interact and conduct commerce without worrying about who built which gate. Of course, the 'barbarians at the gates' may blow them up anyway
It also allows me to introduce 'old' jump gates which races may find as they explore, which they will be able to immediately utilise.
Steve
Post by: sloanjh on June 26, 2007, 09:13:43 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "sloanjh"How about this idea - gates are always "on" (allow transit), but only the building race (or another race that has built/attached its own "com shack" to each side of the gate) can use it for communications? This solves the technobabble problems of "how do I figure out someone else's protocol for sending a directional signal" and "how do I know where a moving ship is" - there's a facility at the gate that was built by you, so you can give it directions and the moving ship can register its location (and/or query for messages being held in a message buffer). I don't know that you actually have to put a "comm shack" object into the game - it's probably cheap enough that it can just be role-played.That would still entail having jump gates owned by a particular race. For gameplay reasons I would prefer them to be usuable by all in all respects, like jump gates in Babylon 5 or Stargates from SG1. One of the reasons is trade but another is that if jump gates are 'owned' and that ownership confers an advantage there is a good reason to go around blowing up other people's jump gates and replacing them with your own. I hope that there may be a 'civilised' area of a galaxy in some campaigns where races are going to interact and conduct commerce without worrying about who built which gate. Of course, the 'barbarians at the gates' may blow them up anyway :-)
Thanks,
John
Post by: Steve Walmsley on June 27, 2007, 06:40:32 AM
Quote from: "sloanjh"
Sorry - didn't make myself clear. Each gate has a list of "owners" (those who have attached com shacks) who can use it for comms. If com shack is zero cost (in game terms) this doesn't require any code changes. If com shack is a component that has to be added to the gate (e.g. as a construction task) then each gate needs a list of owners. I would go with option A :)
If a com shack is zero cost in game terms and doesn't require any code changes, then every race will add one to every gate and there would no difference in game terms between that and the current situation. Although, a ship would presumably still have to visit each gate to add the com shack, which adds a little micromanagement and some extra code to emplace it and track who can communicate through which gate. Also, can you use other people's com shacks to create longer communication links if they dont want you in their territory placing com shacks? If some type of minor construction task is created, then every race would still likely add a com shack to every gate they find, which adds micromanagement but no real decision-making or advantage, adds an extra layer of code to a few different areas and brings the question of can I destroy other race's com shacks, plus the code required for option A.
I think the com shack may add complexity (and work for me :)
Steve
Post by: sloanjh on June 27, 2007, 03:22:45 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "sloanjh"Sorry - didn't make myself clear. Each gate has a list of "owners" (those who have attached com shacks) who can use it for comms. If com shack is zero cost (in game terms) this doesn't require any code changes. If com shack is a component that has to be added to the gate (e.g. as a construction task) then each gate needs a list of owners. I would go with option A :)
If a com shack is zero cost in game terms and doesn't require any code changes, then every race will add one to every gate and there would no difference in game terms between that and the current situation. Although, a ship would presumably still have to visit each gate to add the com shack, which adds a little micromanagement and some extra code to emplace it and track who can communicate through which gate. Also, can you use other people's com shacks to create longer communication links if they dont want you in their territory placing com shacks? If some type of minor construction task is created, then every race would still likely add a com shack to every gate they find, which adds micromanagement but no real decision-making or advantage, adds an extra layer of code to a few different areas and brings the question of can I destroy other race's com shacks, plus the code required for option A.
I think the com shack may add complexity (and work for me :)
Steve
That's why I suggested zero cost - 'cuz that turns it into technobabble justifying the status quo
Post by: Paul M on April 16, 2009, 06:10:07 AM
Quote from: "Kurt"
I am interested in what others are thinking in this area.
It seems to me that survey groups have three more-or-less necessary roles that must be filled, and several other "optional" roles:
1. Jump capability
2. Geo survey capability
3. Grav survey capability
the optionals are:
4. Courier
5. warship escort
My question is, how do people usually fill these roles in their survey squadrons? Has anyone ever tried to build a multi-role survey/jump ship? Theoretically, one ship could fill all three of the main roles.
Kurt
Hi Kurt,
For my campaigns I have used 3 ships:
Seekerrh class science vessels 900T Geosurvey, and Searcher class science vessels 900T Gravsurvey are built first for the home system survey.
Diskoverrhee class deep space survey ships 3200 T Geo/Grav survey ships with jump engines are built for exploration.
I usually make 12 DSSV's and 6 GeoSV and 6 GravSV then make up 4 exploration fleets.
2 have 3 DSSVs, 3 GeoSV and 3 GravSV and 2 have 3 DSSV.
The ones with the mixed classes tend to survey quicker since the 3 DSSV group and the 3 GravSV group can deal with inner and outer survey locations faster but require a lot more micromanagement with regards to fuel since the GSVs have 20K-l tanks and the DSSVs have 100K-l tanks. I have had to retank the GSVs a couple of times which is usually a more complex then it should be task. Also even making the non-jump ships subordinate still means I have to give 3x the number of orders.
Couriers no and warship escorts no.
I had on a 3.5 year deployment several jump engine failures so its a good thing to have more than one ship with jump engines in the group. I don't see it as a problem to have a dual or triple purpose survey ship. They are more expensive yes but they simplify the logisitics considerably. Coupled with jump tankers you can sustain a long deployment.
GeoSV vessels are useful but I find they tend to stand around a long time and often aren't of much use anyway as the system has few objects to survey. What might be good is to have your DSSVs do grav surveys and if the system is crowded just habitable world surveys and a geoSV+jump tanker come in and follow up for a moon survey.
Actually the current situation shows why the TFN had to re-survey systems in the books because there is a big tendancy to just skip over parts of the survey.
Now all my games were very low tech so couriers and warships were not considered useful. Probes with a DSSV is ugly though when an NPR blows one up or as in one case you need to spend a year on station to get full communciations (for all the good it does you).
But I don't like having the non-jump capable survey ships frankly. Survey is risky enough to not need to worry about stranding ships. For escorts again the trouble is that they accumlate a lot of time on their clocks sitting doing nothing as they can't afford to burn fuel training. As your tech level improves I would look at lightly armed survey jump escorts and dedicated probe ship (with just geosurvey equipment but a large passive array). I also think that again as time goes on you can look into arming the survey ships somewhat.
The big thing I found was fuel management and large stocks of maintenance spares as a jump engine is 400 you need that extra maintenance bay tech sooner or later I think.
Post by: ShadoCat on April 17, 2009, 06:42:20 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
I think the com shack may add complexity (and work for me :)
Steve, why not assume that communication protocols are built into the gates. Each gate has a unique address based on several technobabble variables. You can also register receivers with a gate by pinging it with your receiver. The only thing is that you have to have visited each gate to know it's code (thus messages aren't propagated through gates you don't know about). That way, you can send a message to a specific receiver so long as you know about each gate in between.
The "pinging" is so trivial, you can assume that any gate a race knows about has been pinged and made part of the network. So, no code. Any gate that shows up for the player can be used for communication.
Post by: Starkiller on April 19, 2009, 04:23:55 PM
reached three transits out from Sol, so I prepared a specialized ship to handle both chores and do it faster. She's big and expensive, but a few of these
squadrons keep the expansion going. Since the squeeze of the jump drive limits their range a bit, I designed a high speed tanker to accompany them on
extended surveys. (Due to Deep Survey Alpha running out of fuel surveying the Epsilon Eridani quadrinary system)
The Hun class survey cruiser (Always loved that TFN design, mine has no armaments though)
Code: [Select]
Hun class Survey Cruiser 12000 tons 1171 Crew 4615.4 BP TCS 240 TH 515.2 EM 60
6133 km/s JR 3-200 Armour 1-46 Shields 2-240 Sensors 55/55/14/14 Damage Control Rating 3 PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 384% IFR: 5.3% Maintenance Capacity 721 MSP Max Repair 841 MSP
J12000(3-200) Jump Drive Max Ship Size 12000 tons Distance 200k km Squadron Size 3
Magneto-plasma Drive E6.5 (16) Power 92 Efficiency 0.65 Signature 32.2 Armour 0 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres Range 69.2 billion km (130 days at full power)
Gamma R240/12 Shields (1) Total Fuel Cost 12 Litres per day
Thermal Sensor TH5-55 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 55 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 55m km
EM Detection Sensor EM5-55 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 55 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 55m km
Improved Gravitational Sensors (7) 14 Survey Points
Improved Geological Sensors (7) 14 Survey Points Hospitallier class tanker for LONG range survey operations
Code: [Select]
Hospitallier class Tanker 6100 tons 475 Crew 1545.6 BP TCS 122 TH 322 EM 0
7540 km/s Armour 1-29 Shields 0-0 Sensors 44/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 297% IFR: 4.1% Maintenance Capacity 158 MSP Max Repair 80 MSP
Magneto-plasma Drive E6.5 (10) Power 92 Efficiency 0.65 Signature 32.2 Armour 0 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 3,000,000 Litres Range 1361.7 billion km (2090 days at full power)
Thermal Sensor TH4-44 (50%) (1) Sensitivity 44 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 44m km
Now I need to slow my expansion until I colonize some of the real estate behind me.
Eric
Post by: Brian Neumann on April 19, 2009, 05:27:50 PM
Brian
Post by: Starkiller on April 19, 2009, 05:44:05 PM
ships break down all the time. Once I get a better idea of how everthing functions, I do want to do another campaign with it turned back on. I like
complicated. I have Space Empires 3, 4, and 5 as well, and each version is more complicated then the last. :)
Post by: Brian Neumann on April 19, 2009, 06:22:32 PM
Quote from: "Starkiller"
PS: The fuel harvester mod is a good idea. I never thought of it. I'll have to add them to my tanker. If I check the gas giants in the system first,
and find sorium, I can have the tanker harvest, while the Huns get on with THEIR job. Thanks for a REALLY good idea.
No problem. I tried it out one time and was sold on it after that.
Post by: alanwebber on April 20, 2009, 02:07:37 AM
Alan
Post by: Erik L on April 22, 2009, 09:26:49 PM
Post by: Starkiller on April 22, 2009, 10:00:05 PM
Eric
Post by: Erik L on April 22, 2009, 11:32:49 PM
Post by: waresky on April 26, 2009, 10:15:25 AM
Post by: Paul M on May 27, 2009, 04:02:46 AM
I have found (possibly due to astorography) that my survey forces spend a considerable amount of time and fuel getting out to the frontier. This means they burn a good chunck of fuel before they even can start survey work. Also the deployments are generally 5+ years including at least one refueling and re-supply break. A 5 year deployment for an armed ship is brutal on its systems and would require a very extensive maintenace overhaul at the end but the chance of encountering the bug eyed monsters and not detecting them far enough out to avoid loss of a ship is also not good.
For the Draak I am still trying to formulate a plan to deal with this. I have 45 known and 25 surveyed systems with the frontier now about 4 jumps out from the homeworld (or more in some cases). From what I can see part of your survey strategy has to be the establishement of forward operating bases with fuel and maintence facilities. This makes both the sorium processing module and maintenance module potentially more valuable then they seem first off. Otherwise you burn a lot of fuel simply getting your ships back to where you can overhaul them. In addition the time to fly back home is added to the clock on the ship so it prolongs the maintenance time.
It might be possible to invest in technological solutions: maintenance modules, sorium processing modules and asteroid mining modules would allow for a fleet to set up shop and process the materials needed to keep the survey ships operational longer and allow insitu overhauls (potentially at more frequent intervals).
It is clear that you need to probe the system, leaving a ship at the entrance jump point simply to ensure you don't end up with the whole survey force destroyed. But this hardly seems to a major time or fuel constraint. And as Kurt has observed even a fairly modest amount of survey ships can explore an area of space it will take decades to exploit.
The bug eyed monster question; however, is not so easy to answer. Although you can use non-jump warships this leaves them vulurable to being stranded, its hard to judge the value of a jump versus non-jump escort. I prefer all jump capable ships for survey but its obvious you gain. The other question is what sort of force level do you want? Or put another way what do you want the escort to accomplish beyond getting killed in a hopeless battle. Does it make sense to include a sizable battle group of what ends up being a very long term deployment? You have to factor in colliers and tankers as well if you are a missile using race and still the question comes up: what is the mission of this force?
I find it difficult to justify a throw away force, since if it ever gets used it will get lost anyway and accomplish nothing of significance. I'd rather loose the odd probe survey ship as opposed to the odd probe survey ship and several warships. Equally I find it hard to justify designing and building a jump capable ship(s) and then deploying it in signficant numbers on what are mostly routine operations which put serious time on the warships maintenace clocks. The other alternative is to arm the survey ships, but it is again unclear what exactly that will accomplish unless you use the star trek model and send BBs out as "peaceful exploration vessels equiped with non-military crew" err uhm riggghhhttt. I'm not even seeing a "good" solution here, but that is because I can't figure out what I expect the survey escorts to actually accomplish.
In starfire my survey vessels were armed and had support assets to allow them to make a warp point defence which would stop anything but a serious assault...largely through the deployment of mines and IDEW to back up the survey ships. I never had to field test it though.
Gunboats look to be a viable alternative with a tender for aurora. The Draak are limited at the moment by having but a single model of jump engine, and the survey ships would need to grow to mount weapons, requiring a new model of jump engine (in the works but down the pipeline several years).
Still I think until I can answer the question of what I want the survey escort to actually accomplish it is difficult to design a force to accomplish the mission. This accurately reflects the real world reality of most modern industrial countries...
Post by: Kurt on May 27, 2009, 11:45:58 AM
Quote from: "Paul M"
Things that have come up are deployment times, overhaul times and bug eyed monsters.
I have found (possibly due to astorography) that my survey forces spend a considerable amount of time and fuel getting out to the frontier. This means they burn a good chunck of fuel before they even can start survey work. Also the deployments are generally 5+ years including at least one refueling and re-supply break. A 5 year deployment for an armed ship is brutal on its systems and would require a very extensive maintenace overhaul at the end but the chance of encountering the bug eyed monsters and not detecting them far enough out to avoid loss of a ship is also not good.
For the Draak I am still trying to formulate a plan to deal with this. I have 45 known and 25 surveyed systems with the frontier now about 4 jumps out from the homeworld (or more in some cases). From what I can see part of your survey strategy has to be the establishement of forward operating bases with fuel and maintence facilities. This makes both the sorium processing module and maintenance module potentially more valuable then they seem first off. Otherwise you burn a lot of fuel simply getting your ships back to where you can overhaul them. In addition the time to fly back home is added to the clock on the ship so it prolongs the maintenance time.
It might be possible to invest in technological solutions: maintenance modules, sorium processing modules and asteroid mining modules would allow for a fleet to set up shop and process the materials needed to keep the survey ships operational longer and allow insitu overhauls (potentially at more frequent intervals).
It is clear that you need to probe the system, leaving a ship at the entrance jump point simply to ensure you don't end up with the whole survey force destroyed. But this hardly seems to a major time or fuel constraint. And as Kurt has observed even a fairly modest amount of survey ships can explore an area of space it will take decades to exploit.
The bug eyed monster question; however, is not so easy to answer. Although you can use non-jump warships this leaves them vulurable to being stranded, its hard to judge the value of a jump versus non-jump escort. I prefer all jump capable ships for survey but its obvious you gain. The other question is what sort of force level do you want? Or put another way what do you want the escort to accomplish beyond getting killed in a hopeless battle. Does it make sense to include a sizable battle group of what ends up being a very long term deployment? You have to factor in colliers and tankers as well if you are a missile using race and still the question comes up: what is the mission of this force?
I find it difficult to justify a throw away force, since if it ever gets used it will get lost anyway and accomplish nothing of significance. I'd rather loose the odd probe survey ship as opposed to the odd probe survey ship and several warships. Equally I find it hard to justify designing and building a jump capable ship(s) and then deploying it in signficant numbers on what are mostly routine operations which put serious time on the warships maintenace clocks. The other alternative is to arm the survey ships, but it is again unclear what exactly that will accomplish unless you use the star trek model and send BBs out as "peaceful exploration vessels equiped with non-military crew" err uhm riggghhhttt. I'm not even seeing a "good" solution here, but that is because I can't figure out what I expect the survey escorts to actually accomplish.
In starfire my survey vessels were armed and had support assets to allow them to make a warp point defence which would stop anything but a serious assault...largely through the deployment of mines and IDEW to back up the survey ships. I never had to field test it though.
Gunboats look to be a viable alternative with a tender for aurora. The Draak are limited at the moment by having but a single model of jump engine, and the survey ships would need to grow to mount weapons, requiring a new model of jump engine (in the works but down the pipeline several years).
Still I think until I can answer the question of what I want the survey escort to actually accomplish it is difficult to design a force to accomplish the mission. This accurately reflects the real world reality of most modern industrial countries...
Over time I have drifted towards deploying all jump-capable ships for survey duty, not usually armed, but always equipped with the best and largest passive and EM sensors I can fit into the hull. Making them all jump-capable gives vast improvements in efficiency, because you never have to have one ship waiting for another to finish its survey because the waiting ship has no jump drive. Also, making them all jump capable removes the possibility of having a survey group trapped when the sole jumpship is captured or destroyed.
Kurt
Post by: sloanjh on May 27, 2009, 09:18:42 PM
Quote from: "Kurt"
Over time I have drifted towards deploying all jump-capable ships for survey duty, not usually armed, but always equipped with the best and largest passive and EM sensors I can fit into the hull. Making them all jump-capable gives vast improvements in efficiency, because you never have to have one ship waiting for another to finish its survey because the waiting ship has no jump drive. Also, making them all jump capable removes the possibility of having a survey group trapped when the sole jumpship is captured or destroyed.
This is an interesting example of "historical warts" for me. In my previous games, my engine tech was high enough during start-up that I could afford to make my warp survey ships jump capable - they were actually my standard jump ship. For geo-survey, I always used small, non-jump capable ships - since I always leave a jump ship at the entry WP the "waiting around" issue wasn't so bad.
In my most recent campaign, however, I went Pre-TNT. My initial engine tech was so bad that I had to go single-role for jump and warp survey ships. Now that I'm getting to a high engine tech, it's not worth changing philosophies, mainly because I've stopped exploration (my exploration out-ran my practical range for starting new colonies), so I don't have a big need for warp-survey ships. So my fleet mix is going to be different in this case - many more single-role ships, mainly because my original fleet set-up was for single-role ships, and it's too inefficient to incrementally switch over to dual-role ships.
Similar things have been going on with my tech research - I find that the set of research bonuses that I have available with commanders is much more influential in when techs get pursued and which ignored.
John
Post by: Paul M on May 28, 2009, 03:02:33 AM
"Historical Warts": the Draak have only one model of jump engine good for 3 ships and 3900 Tons max. In the research queue is both an efficiency upgrade and 4 ships per squadron but that is years away from the current game date. But even now beyond making a more efficient 3900Ton/4ship version I'm not sure what others will get made.
Government (Role Play) decisions: survey ships would mount only drives 1 generation behind the military ones. The plan is to include 1st generation suppression to a civilian drive in the next gen ship. They also mount a good EM passive system, plus a civillian sized thermal, because for detecting inhabited planets EM signatures are usually higher then Thermal.
For a while I tried to use my older non jump capable ships mixed in with the jump capable ones but as deployments became longer they became less effective and were just removed from service. They were more hassel to micromanage then they added in efficiency. I've also reached the limit (4-5 jumps outward surveyed) of my effective colonization space and am transitioning to a exploitation mode to build up the systems I have explored and are best suited to colonization. But it is also becoming more and more clear that the exploration groups are well out on the branch, which is what is prompting the questions about escorts. And frankly I'm not sure what to do, mainly because I'm not very sure what I want the escorts to accomplish.
Post by: sloanjh on May 28, 2009, 05:47:40 PM
As far as I can tell, unless you've got a big technological or economic advantage over an NPR, all an escort will do is annoy him
If you've got a big tech advantage, then you probably have a speed advantage and your survey ships can run away. This is the way it worked in all my previous games - the NPR I encountered we all behind me in tech and weren't able to catch me if they proved hostile (unless my ships stumbled upon precursors and got blown to dust bunnies when they tried to say "hi"). In the current game, due to the pre-TNT start, all the NPR are way ahead of me in tech/speed (I'm only now catching up) but the AI haven't been very aggressive about leaving their home systems when I interfere with their survey ships.John
Post by: waresky on December 08, 2009, 04:18:10 AM
2 Geo Ships
2 Grav Ships
1 Supply Ships
1 Scout EarlyWarning Ships
1 JumpTender
2 Tankers
With this configurations ive reach 7-8 Jump distance from Sol without problem or need to recover on any nearest base.
Obviously lack on Defence,but speed r core of this ScoutRon group.
Post by: mrwigggles on January 12, 2010, 06:13:54 PM
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
...
3) Some type of jump-capable drone, similar to Starfire courier drones. The problem here would be explaining why these drones could jump but the minimum size for a ship's jump drive is 15 HS and also why you couldn't put a warhead on them, so this is probably not a realistic option.
...
Steve
There was talk in nother thread about jump capable missiles for surveying purposes, being called buoys. Wherein the minimum HS was nulled for Jump engines, for ships below HS15 would have a group limit of zero or one, with ships equal to greater then HS15 would have the usual 3 limit.
A jump capable message buoy would offer nother avenue for fostering the information back to HQ. You could equip a tender ship with these buoy.
Post by: waresky on January 13, 2010, 10:39:26 AM
Code: [Select]
HMS Long Beach I class Scout Carrier 30000 tons 2576 Crew 10038.5 BP TCS 600 TH 1552.5 EM 0
3450 km/s JR 3-100 Armour 1-86 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1200/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 66 PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 109% IFR: 1.5% Maintenance Capacity 18804 MSP Max Repair 2400 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 7000 tons
Maintenance Modules: 5 module(s) capable of supporting ships of 1000 tons
J30000(3-100) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 30000 tons Distance 100k km Squadron Size 3
M-Type SCAM Drive E2.6 (9) Power 230 Fuel Use 26% Signature 172.5 Armour 0 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 1,550,000 Litres Range 357.7 billion km (1199 days at full power)
AMM-1 Active Search Sensor S800-R1 (30%) (1) GPS 800 Range 8.0m km Resolution 1
BattleSystem Thermal Sensor TH50-1200 (30%) (1) Sensitivity 1200 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 1200m km
This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposesand related parassite-ships:
Scout-Tanker
Code: [Select]
HMS Missippi ScT3 class Scout Tanker 1000 tons 92 Crew 305.5 BP TCS 20 TH 172.5 EM 0
11500 km/s Armour 1-8 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 2 PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 4% IFR: 0.1% Maintenance Capacity 334 MSP Max Repair 144 MSP
M-Type SCAM Drive E2.6 (1) Power 230 Fuel Use 26% Signature 172.5 Armour 0 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 600,000 Litres Range 4153.8 billion km (4180 days at full power)
This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes
Scout Radar
Code: [Select]
HMS Gange ScR1 class Scout Radar 1000 tons 114 Crew 1506.5 BP TCS 20 TH 172.5 EM 0
11500 km/s Armour 1-8 Shields 0-0 Sensors 96/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 2 PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 4% IFR: 0.1% Maintenance Capacity 1648 MSP Max Repair 1120 MSP
M-Type SCAM Drive E2.6 (1) Power 230 Fuel Use 26% Signature 172.5 Armour 0 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 30,000 Litres Range 207.7 billion km (209 days at full power)
B900 ASS S560-R18 (30%) (1) GPS 10080 Range 100.8m km Resolution 18
Thermal Sensor TH4-96 (30%) (1) Sensitivity 96 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 96m km
This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposesScout Grav
Code: [Select]
HMS Missouri ScG2 class Scout GravSurvey 1000 tons 111 Crew 534.5 BP TCS 20 TH 172.5 EM 0
11500 km/s Armour 1-8 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/20/4/0 Damage Control Rating 2 PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 4% IFR: 0.1% Maintenance Capacity 585 MSP Max Repair 150 MSP
M-Type SCAM Drive E2.6 (1) Power 230 Fuel Use 26% Signature 172.5 Armour 0 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 30,000 Litres Range 207.7 billion km (209 days at full power)
EM Detection Sensor EM0.5-20 (30%) (1) Sensitivity 20 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 20m km
Improved Gravitational Sensors (2) 4 Survey Points
This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposesScout Geo
Code: [Select]
HMS Carolina ScG1 class Scout GeoSurvey 1000 tons 111 Crew 634.5 BP TCS 20 TH 172.5 EM 0
11500 km/s Armour 1-8 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/20/6/0 Damage Control Rating 2 PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 4% IFR: 0.1% Maintenance Capacity 694 MSP Max Repair 200 MSP
M-Type SCAM Drive E2.6 (1) Power 230 Fuel Use 26% Signature 172.5 Armour 0 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 30,000 Litres Range 207.7 billion km (209 days at full power)
EM Detection Sensor EM0.5-20 (30%) (1) Sensitivity 20 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 20m km
Advanced Gravitational Sensors (2) 6 Survey Points
This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposesNext Year (game year:)) we laid down a 1st Survey Group with an JumpTanker attached for CV refuel.
Post by: Beersatron on January 13, 2010, 12:47:42 PM
What kind of tech level have you got your engines at?!
Although, I think the maintenance modules only work when the ship is in orbit of a Colony and the colony needs minerals, not maintenance supplies?
Post by: welchbloke on January 13, 2010, 01:48:46 PM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
Nice WareskyThey look ike Solid Core Anti-matter Engines to me.
What kind of tech level have you got your engines at?!
Although, I think the maintenance modules only work when the ship is in orbit of a Colony and the colony needs minerals, not maintenance supplies?
Post by: waresky on January 13, 2010, 02:25:39 PM
Quote from: "Beersatron"
Nice Waresky
What kind of tech level have you got your engines at?!
Although, I think the maintenance modules only work when the ship is in orbit of a Colony and the colony needs minerals, not maintenance supplies?
SCAM=SolidCore,but ive right finish'em to achieve Gas Core..anothe rlittle step toward.
Maintenance r (if am remember right on Steve post about 4.77) functioning at 100% to repair ...or not?:D..
Ive pass 120 years in mankind history to day.
Post by: boggo2300 on January 13, 2010, 02:46:04 PM
Quote from: "waresky"
Maintenance r (if am remember right on Steve post about 4.77) functioning at 100% to repair ...or not?:D..
Ive pass 120 years in mankind history to day.
No, when in orbit of a colony, they act like maintenance facilities, theyre most useful in pdc's or orbital facilities to up the maintenance limits on a colony. You can use them for repair on a ship, but only when in
orbit over a colony.
At least thats my understanding (and use)
Matt
Post by: waresky on January 14, 2010, 12:18:23 AM
But Steve tell us who change this.
And put a maintenance directly ONBOARD.A right use.
Post by: waresky on January 14, 2010, 01:26:29 PM
Quote from: "boggo2300"
Quote from: "waresky"
Maintenance r (if am remember right on Steve post about 4.77) functioning at 100% to repair ...or not?:D..
Ive pass 120 years in mankind history to day.
No, when in orbit of a colony, they act like maintenance facilities, theyre most useful in pdc's or orbital facilities to up the maintenance limits on a colony. You can use them for repair on a ship, but only when in
orbit over a colony.
At least thats my understanding (and use)
Matt
Guys,..
My Scout ships onboard on a CV r at ZERO on overhauls time..and ive been used them for some months in Surveyying..
So there r some of mistake in Rules or u all have misunderstanding Steve's post around.
So at last..the lonely ships who become "old" in Overhaul economy are the Carriers..
And THIS r absolutely perfect in a Imperial economy:)
Post by: Rathos on January 24, 2010, 02:21:20 AM
Post by: akhierthedragonheart on March 10, 2010, 12:47:42 PM
Code: [Select]
GeoSurvey class Geological Survey Vessel 1000 tons 93 Crew 187.8 BP TCS 20 TH 60 EM 0
3000 km/s JR 1-50 Armour 1-8 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/1 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 8% IFR: 0.1% Maint Capacity 117 MSP Max Repair 100 MSP Est Time: 4.92 Years
J1000(1-50) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 1000 tons Distance 50k km Squadron Size 1
Ion Engine E7 (1) Power 60 Fuel Use 70% Signature 60 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres Range 128.6 billion km (496 days at full power)
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes
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GraviSurvey class Gravitational Survey Vessel 1000 tons 93 Crew 187.8 BP TCS 20 TH 60 EM 0
3000 km/s JR 1-50 Armour 1-8 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/1/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 8% IFR: 0.1% Maint Capacity 117 MSP Max Repair 100 MSP Est Time: 4.92 Years
J1000(1-50) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 1000 tons Distance 50k km Squadron Size 1
Ion Engine E7 (1) Power 60 Fuel Use 70% Signature 60 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres Range 128.6 billion km (496 days at full power)
Gravitational Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes
Code: [Select]
DeepSurvey class Deep Space Survey Ship 2000 tons 202 Crew 395.4 BP TCS 40 TH 120 EM 0
3000 km/s JR 1-50 Armour 1-14 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/1/1 Damage Control Rating 4 PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 8% IFR: 0.1% Maint Capacity 494 MSP Max Repair 100 MSP Est Time: 10.61 Years
J2000(1-50) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 2000 tons Distance 50k km Squadron Size 1
Ion Engine E7 (2) Power 60 Fuel Use 70% Signature 60 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres Range 257.1 billion km (992 days at full power)
Gravitational Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
Geological Survey Sensors (1) 1 Survey Points Per Hour
This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes
Post by: MoonDragon on March 10, 2010, 04:22:10 PM
My current exploration doctrine calls for two types of exploratory vessels. I call their task groups Depth First Search (DFS) and Width First Search (WFS). DFS task groups jump through jump gates the moment they discover them. WFS task groups survey the whole system before moving to the next equally distant system, from the previous. My DFS TGs are intended to be the point of first contact, and hopefully survive such contact. While WFS TGs are my primary means of geological survey.
In order to accommodate both methodologies without too much overhead, I went with modular ship design (i.e. hangars). My main survey platform are jump capable grav survey vessels.
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Eagle class Gravitational Survey Vessel 4000 tons 300 Crew 1074.2 BP TCS 80 TH 40 EM 0
3125 km/s JR 3-50 Armour 3-22 Shields 0-0 Sensors 180/180/2/0 Damage Control Rating 3 PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 42% IFR: 0.6% Maint Capacity 504 MSP Max Repair 180 MSP Est Time: 3.14 Years
Hangar Deck Capacity 1000 tons
J4000(3-50) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 4000 tons Distance 50k km Squadron Size 3
MaConfi Drive Type M/E4 (2) Power 125 Fuel Use 40% Signature 20 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 150,000 Litres Range 168.8 billion km (625 days at full power)
Thermal Sensor TH10-180 (1) Sensitivity 180 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 180m km
EM Detection Sensor EM10-180 (1) Sensitivity 180 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 180m km
Improved Gravitational Sensors (1) 2 Survey Points Per HourDepending on the type of deployment, they will either carry two missile armed fighters (for DFS role) or a geo survey parasite (for WFS role). The geo survey ship:Code: [Select]
Mole class Geological Survey Vessel 1000 tons 90 Crew 487.4 BP TCS 20 TH 20 EM 0
6250 km/s Armour 3-8 Shields 0-0 Sensors 90/1/0/3 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 8% IFR: 0.1% Maint Capacity 305 MSP Max Repair 200 MSP Est Time: 5.68 Years
MaConfi Drive Type M/E4 (1) Power 125 Fuel Use 40% Signature 20 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres Range 225.0 billion km (416 days at full power)
Thermal Sensor TH5-90 (1) Sensitivity 90 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 90m km
Advanced Geological Sensors (1) 3 Survey Points Per HourMy "smack the living heck out of them and run" fighters, that accompany the DFS role survey vessels:Code: [Select]
Resolution class Fighter 467.5 tons 20 Crew 115.4 BP TCS 9.35 TH 12 EM 0
8021 km/s Armour 1-5 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 6
Annual Failure Rate: 6% IFR: 0.1% Maint Capacity 39 MSP Max Repair 36 MSP Est Time: 5.08 Years
Magazine 40
FTR Magnetic Confinement Fusion Drive E300 (1) Power 75 Fuel Use 3000% Signature 12 Armour 0 Exp 25%
Fuel Capacity 20,000 Litres Range 2.6 billion km (3 days at full power)
Size 10 Box Launcher (4) Missile Size 10 Hangar Reload 75 minutes MF Reload 12.5 hours
Missile Fire Control FC29-R50 (1) Range 29.2m km Resolution 50
Size 10 Anti-ship MIRV (4) Speed: 18,700 km/s End: 26.7m Range: 30.5m km WH: 0 Size: 10 TH: 62 / 37 / 18
Active Search Sensor MR32-R50 (1) GPS 1800 Range 32.4m km Resolution 50Where the missiles carried by it are:Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 10 MSP (0.5 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 18700 km/s Endurance: 32 minutes Range: 35.9m km
Cost Per Missile: 21.0586
Second Stage: Hornet ASM S-S1-4 x8
Second Stage Separation Range: 750,000 km
Overall Endurance: 32 minutes Overall Range: 36.5m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 187% 3k km/s 60% 5k km/s 37.4% 10k km/s 18.7%
Materials Required: 8x Tritanium 10.7926x Gallicite Fuel x1250And:Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1 MSP (0.05 HS) Warhead: 4 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 18
Speed: 62500 km/s Endurance: 0 minutes Range: 0.8m km
Cost Per Missile: 2.2417
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 1125% 3k km/s 360% 5k km/s 225% 10k km/s 112.5%
Materials Required: 1x Tritanium 0.9897x Gallicite Fuel x2.5The doctrine for DSM vessels calls for fighters to exit the ship upon detection of hostiles, while the MS hightails it towards the jump point. If possible, the fighters engage their missiles at the target and follow after the MS. I don't intend to stick around for the details. Overall, this doctrine was borne out of too many survey craft getting ganked by random hostiles that shoot first and ask questions later.
Post by: waresky on March 13, 2010, 08:29:16 AM
Post by: ShadoCat on March 17, 2010, 06:09:06 PM
I don't see active sensors on either the carrier or fighters. AFAIK, you can't target off of just Thermals + Missile Fire Control.
Also, that's an awfully long endurance for a fighter missile. I would be tempted to see how many of those 1MSP missiles you could get on a fighter.
Post by: MoonDragon on March 18, 2010, 12:27:38 PM
Quote from: "ShadoCat"
Moondragon
I don't see active sensors on either the carrier or fighters. AFAIK, you can't target off of just Thermals + Missile Fire Control.
Also, that's an awfully long endurance for a fighter missile. I would be tempted to see how many of those 1MSP missiles you could get on a fighter.
The last line of the fighter description:
Active Search Sensor MR32-R50 (1) GPS 1800 Range 32.4m km Resolution 50
Those MIRV missiles are also not specifically designed as fighter missiles. They are my generic "fist of God" overkill missile designed with no knowledge of what I may run into. So, it's supposed to fit on anything I may have to build, but primarily in combination with tube launchers. The fighters are just meant to be a mobile active sensor distraction platform while my survey ship attempts to run for the JP. The missiles are really a retaliatory punitive measure, rather than a part of a well thought out military campaign against a known enemy.
Post by: ShadoCat on March 18, 2010, 05:24:54 PM
Quote from: "MoonDragon"
Quote from: "ShadoCat"Moondragon
I don't see active sensors on either the carrier or fighters. AFAIK, you can't target off of just Thermals + Missile Fire Control.
Also, that's an awfully long endurance for a fighter missile. I would be tempted to see how many of those 1MSP missiles you could get on a fighter.
The last line of the fighter description:
Active Search Sensor MR32-R50 (1) GPS 1800 Range 32.4m km Resolution 50
Darn, I missed seeing the scroll bar. That makes a lot more sense. :)[/quote]
Ah, sort of just a rude gesture to the aggressor.
My boats carry non-MIRV missiles so I can get some penetration.
Post by: waresky on March 19, 2010, 06:51:52 AM
There we can testing near to infinite possibility.
Sure we have the "Hard choice" cant avoid: speed,maneuvre rating,sensors and so..but "Doctrine" are always too many who noone have a "Right solution" for all situations.
The trick r check others and compare with our Universe situations..so if need better "copy and paste" in our Universe the BETTER solution for those we need
apologize for my not understandable english..
Post by: The Shadow on March 25, 2010, 08:23:04 PM
But I also have these guys, my 'first-in' scouts - they are the only ones I use to probe new systems for the first time. I got the basic idea from Steve's Trans-Newtonian campaign, and tweaked to suit. They've worked really well so far, haven't lost a one:
Code: [Select]
Sagan class Deep Space Survey Ship 4000 tons 365 Crew 711.4 BP TCS 80 TH 120 EM 0
3000 km/s JR 3-50 Armour 1-22 Shields 0-0 Sensors 12/12/2/0 Damage Control Rating 5 PPV 4
Annual Failure Rate: 23% IFR: 0.3% Maint Capacity 611 MSP Max Repair 150 MSP Est Time: 5.42 Years
Magazine 176
J4000(3-50) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 4000 tons Distance 50k km Squadron Size 3
Ion Stealth Engine E8 (4) Power 60 Fuel Use 80% Signature 30 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 400,000 Litres Range 225.0 billion km (868 days at full power)
Survey Drone Launcher (1) Missile Size 16 Rate of Fire 48000
Missile Fire Control FC0-R1 (1) Range 22k km Resolution 1
Drake Survey Drone (5) Speed: 15,000 km/s End: 1093.7m Range: 984.4m km WH: 0 Size: 16 TH: 25 / 15 / 7
Magellan Delivery System (5) Speed: 15,000 km/s End: 156.2m Range: 140.6m km WH: 0 Size: 16 TH: 25 / 15 / 7
Active Search Sensor MR14-R100 (1) GPS 2400 Range 14.4m km Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH2-12 (1) Sensitivity 12 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 12m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-12 (1) Sensitivity 12 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 12m km
Improved Gravitational Sensors (1) 2 Survey Points Per Hour
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposesEDIT: Forgot to mention that the Drake Survey Drones have a bit each of thermal, EM, and active sensor. I fire them at planets that might harbor NPR's. Detects populations, fleets, and makes contact all at one go.
The Magellan Delivery System is a drone that drops a geosurvey buoy on a tempting colony spot. That way I don't have to wait for my geosurvey fleet to move up.
Post by: The Shadow on March 29, 2010, 01:09:14 AM
I'm now thinking of designing a new survey vessel that packs both geo and grav sensors, and still has the Drake Survey Drones (but drops the Magellan buoys, as they'll be superfluous). Since I've recently researched new armor and engines, I hope to keep it at the same size.
I'm also considering just using my existing carrier design to cart specialized survey vessels about, as others have done.
Post by: waresky on March 29, 2010, 05:38:19 AM
Quote from: "The Shadow"
Well, having binged on Aurora this spring break and gotten a number of years forward... I'm now less than happy with the "first-in scout" idea. It worked really well at first, but now it takes too long to juggle them around to where they need to be.Same as you ive change whole my Survey Doctrine.
I'm now thinking of designing a new survey vessel that packs both geo and grav sensors, and still has the Drake Survey Drones (but drops the Magellan buoys, as they'll be superfluous). Since I've recently researched new armor and engines, I hope to keep it at the same size.
I'm also considering just using my existing carrier design to cart specialized survey vessels about, as others have done.
Aurora bring us front at 100000 systems to survey,potentially,and this are a HUGE work.
Carriers,Tenders,Tankers,Maintenance vessels,Maintenance hangar...a Scout Fleet become a semi-independent Armada,and need Escort more than first years..because a ScFlt are worth in cost and minerals deployment.
Imagine a 100.000 Stars Universe to Scouting..argh..Time and effort.
Post by: Peewee on March 31, 2010, 09:13:57 AM
I only bother expanding one system away from colonies, (thoroughly surveying everything in the system, asteroids included) unless I can't find any good mineral concentrations nearby.
When it's time to check out the neighbors, I send a group of 10 expensive survey ships (all have fast hyper-capable engines, jump-capable engines, short range low res active search, modest thermal, modest EM, and the best possible grav/geo sensors) out with some default orders. If they get attacked, they rapidly (typically 20,000 km/s) retreat back to base. Then the big guns roll out. All of them (well, almost. I leave behind a PDC or two).
Post by: Rastaman on May 25, 2010, 09:05:27 AM
The survey ships can be specialized commercials and don't need sensors or defenses themselves. So the grav survey comes next. It leaves sensor buoys at the JPs for further security. When they're finished, the mineral surveyors start their work, while the others are elsewhere already.
The use of commercial ships for survey alleviates much of the maintenance and fuel issues. The only military ships are the recon ships, but you'll need recon anyhow as part of your navy structure.
Post by: welchbloke on May 25, 2010, 10:56:17 AM
Quote from: "Rastaman"
Given the unpredictability of exploration, the first people in a new system should be recon, not survey. Such a recon group is fast and/or stealthy and has the best sensors available. They have the best chance to find hostiles without being burdened by an additional industrial mission. If somebody is at home, do first contact/send the navy. .I agree this how I work with my survey groups. All the Grav survey groups have a scout ship or two with them to sneak in and have a look.
Quote from: "Rastaman"
Except that grav sensors are a military system, so you can only have commercial geo survey ships.
The survey ships can be specialized commercials and don't need sensors or defenses themselves. So the grav survey comes next. It leaves sensor buoys at the JPs for further security. When they're finished, the mineral surveyors start their work, while the others are elsewhere already.
The use of commercial ships for survey alleviates much of the maintenance and fuel issues. The only military ships are the recon ships, but you'll need recon anyhow as part of your navy structure.
Post by: Rastaman on May 25, 2010, 05:11:43 PM
Quote from: "welchbloke"
Except that grav sensors are a military system, so you can only have commercial geo survey ships.
Makes sense. JPs have strategic value beyond the economy of course.
Post by: Peter Rhodan on March 02, 2011, 09:40:57 PM
I build masses of small 2000 ton survey ships with 1 grav and 1 geo sensor - and send them out - in my current game I am 14 years - have 24 of the things and have spread my empire about 4 jumps in every direction.
I have lost so many expensive survey ships/squadrons in earlier games I find cheap 2k ton ships are a better option - one runs into a Star Swarm or Precursor or whatever and gets zapped - no big deal.
I refit them progressively with better fuel/engine/jump etc tech as it becomes available. . .
I also look to find suitable colonies - 2-3 jumps out from my home system and ship 10 maintenance and some Refineries to them ASAP and start servicing the Survey ships from these forward colonies. . .
Post by: ZimRathbone on March 03, 2011, 06:54:27 AM
(1) Poineer Scout - big passives nothing else - first into a system (in most cases)
(2) Grav Survey, size 1 passives & Grav survey
(3) Planetary survey - size 1 passives & geo survey
very occasionaly a variant of (3) with Hyperdrive equipped engines (for those far multi star systems - more for the purposes of security than anything else). I rarely put more than 1 survey unit on a ship, most of the time is spent in transit from 1 survey location to the next, and I try always to have 2+ years fuel & Maint.
This time around each ship is in its own fleet (apart from 1 group of 5 gravs put together to fast survey a recently discovered NPR junction system that 9 JP two of which connect to my systems, and which at least 2 NPRs have been using - I can see that being annexed with high priority), but in previous games I have used dividing fleets (less micro-management, but more time wasted by individual vessels waiting for the rest of the fleet to finish off surveys & reassemble)
Lately I have been following up grav surveys with the Minelayer - a small corvette with a single size 24 launcher (25% size) which drops off sensor buoys near each JP to give me warning when someone starts transiting my systems