Aurora 4x
VB6 Aurora => Aurora Suggestions => Topic started by: Hydrofoil on May 20, 2014, 12:57:37 PM
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Im not sure if this has been mentioned already but there are these Great Balls of Fire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IjgZGhHrYY)(Had to be done :P) that sit in the center of our solar systems and Science tells us these things have massive amounts of resources just bubbling on the surface. Im suggesting that we mine them!
Now i realise they are hot and mining them should require some very advanced tech just to even survey them im thinking high levels of armour and shield research as well as a specialised mining technology. This would help give those systems with no planets in them some use in late game.
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I dont think anyone really gets to the endgame mostly because of all the bugs that pop up, and the game slowing to a grinding halt, but mining suns as in a ramscad scoop i think its spelt. Is a good idea
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Science tells us these things have massive amounts of resources just bubbling on the surface.
It does? what resources? Certain isotopes of hydrogen and helium okay, what else?
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It does? what resources? Certain isotopes of hydrogen and helium okay, what else?
Everything from Hydrogen to Iron, including all their isotopes. It just depends on the age, mass and type of star.
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I realize we're already into to some pretty heady techno-improbability if we're dropping scoops into the sun, but pulling up a "cupful of sun" won't reliably get much besides hydrogen and helium. Separating out the tiny fraction of everything else just seems to be not worth the effort. It just seems easier to simply digest a whole asteroid belt or something.
Saying "There is iron in the sun" is like saying "There's gold in seawater" ...it's there, but it's distributed throughout in such a way that you're mostly going to get hydrogen and helium, especially if you're not willing to "go deep"
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And more to the point I think iron and potassium and whatever are pretty useless to a transnewtonian civilization. We'd have to talk to Steve about whether the "minerals" we want are found in suns (IE Mercassium)
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"The final stage occurs when a massive star begins producing iron. Since iron nuclei are more tightly bound than any heavier nuclei, any fusion beyond iron does not produce a net release of energy—the process would, on the contrary, consume energy. Likewise, since they are more tightly bound than all lighter nuclei, energy cannot be released by fission. In relatively old, very massive stars, a large core of inert iron will accumulate in the center of the star. The heavier elements in these stars can work their way to the surface, forming evolved objects known as Wolf-Rayet stars that have a dense stellar wind which sheds the outer atmosphere."
Ninja posted
In trans-neutonian terms, it would most likely be sorium since jupiter type planets becomes stars when they reach a certain size.
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I thought once a star begins to produce heavier elements like iron then it's days were numbered down to mere minutes before a bunch of chain reactions set off a super nova?
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"The final stage occurs when a massive star begins producing iron. Since iron nuclei are more tightly bound than any heavier nuclei, any fusion beyond iron does not produce a net release of energy—the process would, on the contrary, consume energy. Likewise, since they are more tightly bound than all lighter nuclei, energy cannot be released by fission. In relatively old, very massive stars, a large core of inert iron will accumulate in the center of the star. The heavier elements in these stars can work their way to the surface, forming evolved objects known as Wolf-Rayet stars that have a dense stellar wind which sheds the outer atmosphere."
Ninja posted
In trans-neutonian terms, it would most likely be sorium since jupiter type planets becomes stars when they reach a certain size.
Unless I'm mistaken there are currently no Wolf Rayet stars in Aurora,
obviously there could be but you're not really petitioning for a sun mining mechanic so much as a new kind of system, at that point. Supernovae would also be full of all kinds of elemental goodies, but my point still stands that for pretty much every star you'd bumble across while exploring the galaxy (everything from Wolf 359 to sirius) what you're going to find is hydrogen and helium. and for any start that that's not the case for, they system itself is going to be very different.
Now obviously transnewtonian wise we can do pretty much whatever we want: the halo around most stars could be rich in corbomite, or perhaps there's a perfect ring around white dwarfs that is rich with Sorium and Tritanium.
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I thought once a star begins to produce heavier elements like iron then it's days were numbered down to mere minutes before a bunch of chain reactions set off a super nova?
broadly speaking yes, when iron starts to become more common, but you're still talking about extremely long timescales, given that most aurora games don't last longer than a century or two.
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broadly speaking yes, when iron starts to become more common, but you're still talking about extremely long timescales, given that most aurora games don't last longer than a century or two.
Ah I recall that part now yes, but is not the threshold between safe and imminent boom a tiny window? If this is so then would it not make mining a sun somewhat redundant as to have enough heavy elements worth mining would it not also be in possesuion of enough heavy elements to destroy itself?
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It's not a question of "is it worth the risk" so much as "why does a civilization that can move faster than the speed of light to a distant star and drop in scoops capable of withstanding adjacent fusion reactions then perform high energy reactions to separate the finely blended elements care about getting a bunch of iron?"
Surely we could just...I dunno,transmute some or something
in answer to your question we're talking about timescales of thousands upon thousands of years when even we're in the "danger zone".
We've been staring at some "any day now" candidates for decades (http://www.ing.iac.es/PR/press/ing12003.html) and by any indication we could stare for centuries and still know nothing about the day or the hour.
I imagine if there were like, superfuturistic mining ships they could analyze the star every day and know months in advance, perhaps even down to the hour....but this is like worrying about supervolcanoes blowing up your mine outside of yellowstone. The odds of it happening in the given series of years that your ships circle around it are pretty low...unless you like, develop a civilization around that star, then things get fun.
...and obviously this would be a cool mechanic but once again we're talking about very specific stars, many of which are quite far away from us and cosmically quite aberrant. One in a million. I think that's probably why steve hasn't included a "supernova simulation mechanic" in the first place
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Ah the old Dyson sphere problem then that once a civilization reaches such technological heights to achieve such a thing, it no longer has any actual need to do the thing anymore other than for the sake of doing it.
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Well that's one reason steve was so nonspecific about exactly what transnewtonian resources are or why they are necessary.
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Back to the feasibility of mining a star.... (yeah, I know its the register. Highly scientific journalism there...)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/24/y_dwarfs/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/24/y_dwarfs/)
It doesn't take highly sophisticated equipment to collect resources from a brown dwarf that has achieved our room temperature at the surface. Many of the new WISE stars that were added to the database have relatively low surface temperatures.
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I really like the idea.
Possibly some minority of stars might be surveyable/mineable with very low accessibility and huge reserves (possibly more sorium with better access than other minerals).
Of course, it's challenging to think about what technological advances you'd need. Maybe a special mining ship similar to an asteroid miner? With some kind of mass driver built in?
At any rate, it's interesting to think about.
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I don't see the point. You can already mine planets and asteroids, and if you don't have enough minerals, you can expand into a new system. Besides, as it's been pointed out, a star won't have any elements a TN race would need, and handwaving a technobabble explanation for TN elements being present in a star honestly seems a little silly to me.
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The point would be: why not?
Truthfully, there are a number of systems already in place within Aurora that are counterproductive with regards to efficiency. The point of the program is not to win but to enjoy loosing yourself in the story. If a valid argument can be made to the feasibility of the project I believe it should be considered for implementation just because it would be interesting to do.
An interesting by-product of mineral extraction of a star might be increase or decrease in solar energy output. Extract too many of the minerals and you might alter the environment of the entire system.
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The point would be: why not?
Truthfully, there are a number of systems already in place within Aurora that are counterproductive with regards to efficiency. The point of the program is not to win but to enjoy loosing yourself in the story. If a valid argument can be made to the feasibility of the project I believe it should be considered for implementation just because it would be interesting to do.
An interesting by-product of mineral extraction of a star might be increase or decrease in solar energy output. Extract too many of the minerals and you might alter the environment of the entire system.
Dear God ive started a debate ha ha :P my original thought was to give the systems with no planets some sort of usefulness but you have all brought up very very good points. I do mostly agree with the Why not statement though lmao its just cool to do and in the end the game is more about narrative and world building than anything else.
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Given that TN minerals are themselves techno babble and they're just a way to hand-wave our way past Newtonian physics, it seems odd to me that people seem so sure that there aren't any in the sun when they seem perfectly willing to believe that they're on the moon.
In short, stars make up a fantastic amount of the mass of a system. To me, it sounds like it would be fun to be able to exploit them in some circumstances and with challenging accessibility and logistics.
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I can see how mining a star in an empty system would make for a great fueling station and thereby allowing for less fuel tanks to be used in designs.
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With high enough tech if you can mine a star why not a black hole as well? trans-newtonian physics already skirt around the existing known limitations of directly traveling faster than light. If light cannot escape a black hole than with the aid of trans-newtonian elements and respective technologies I would think it would be plausible to extract materials from one.
Yes, it is all a theoretical stretch but in terms of rendering otherwise empty systems into something usable within the game I think the concept should be given full consideration on that basis alone. There are few things in the game more disheartening than discovering a completely empty system. Empty might be realistic but for a game empty is boring.
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If I recall, empty systems have a higher chance of JP. So you have JP nexuses. (nexi?)
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"Why not" doesn't strike me as a legitimate reason to do something in and of itself. I don't think it's a particularly fun or cool idea, or that it would add anything to the internal story of a game. You can already suck sorium directly out of a gas giant, how many sources of minerals do you really need. This is supposed to be a 4X game, not an interstellar mining simulator. Personally, I find it more interesting to have to work around barren systems and keep expanding your empire to find new resources rather than be able to exploit every single stellar object out there. But YMMV, I guess.
(Also, considering that only dying stars have more than trace quantities of elements heavier than helium, and even said dying stars have very little of any elements heavier than iron, I don't find it unreasonable at all to believe that meaningful quantities of accessible TN elements would be present on the moon but not in a star.)
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By using that logic though, you must hate the idea of TN elements being on comets in large amounts. You can probably make a better argument for stars than ice balls.
I don't personally see much advantage to stars being mineable, but it's a neat RP idea if nothing else.
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Why not isn't the reason. It means I am asking you for providing the counter-argument.
I propose that if it were to be implemented that the frequency of occurrence would be on par with most other system bodies. In a given system, such as Sol, what percentage of the bodies contain minerals at all and how many of them contain minerals worth trying to mine? If a similar ratio were applied to stars the number you could do something with would be fairly low.
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By using that logic though, you must hate the idea of TN elements being on comets in large amounts. You can probably make a better argument for stars than ice balls.
You're comparing apples to oranges, not to mention putting words in my mouth.
I'll admit, given the handwaviness of the whole TN concept, there's no real reason to say TN elements wouldn't/couldn't be found in a star. But even if that were the case, how would you get at them in sufficient quantities to make the effort worthwhile?
At least minerals on a comet(or asteroid, or planet, or for that matter even the sorium in a gas giant) are fairly easily accessible by comparison. Whereas elements in the core of a main-sequence star, not so much. Add that onto the fact that, since metallic bonds are impossible to maintain inside a star, you'd be pulling elements out of a star atom by atom. Aurora measures mining output in tons per year; the sample mining ship on the wiki has an annual output of 375 tons(IIRC). That's a loooooooooot of atoms. Slow, inefficient, and dangerous is no way to mine for resources.
Why not isn't the reason. It means I am asking you for providing the counter-argument.
Considering that the arguments of those in favor of the idea basically seem to boil down to 'I think it sounds neat', I don't see why 'I don't think it sounds neat/I think it sounds silly/implausible' isn't a valid counter-argument. But, if that's not enough, see my last post and the first part of this one.
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But even if that were the case, how would you get at them in sufficient quantities to make the effort worthwhile?
Dedicated star mining components on a starbase towed into position?
At least minerals on a comet(or asteroid, or planet, or for that matter even the sorium in a gas giant) are fairly easily accessible by comparison. Whereas elements in the core of a main-sequence star, not so much.
Given that Steve mentioned in his RP that TN Materials were found flowing in the crust of planets at completely even quantity, there is no reason to assume you'd have to go straight to the core to get these resources.
Add that onto the fact that, since metallic bonds are impossible to maintain inside a star, you'd be pulling elements out of a star atom by atom.
I don't think there are TN 'ores'. Otherwise one nation would run out of minerals while another nation could sit on their stash indefinitely.
Aurora measures mining output in tons per year; the sample mining ship on the wiki has an annual output of 375 tons(IIRC). That's a loooooooooot of atoms.
And you'll be mining all those atoms at once. Several tonnes worth at once in fact. There is no reason why you would mine a star atom-by-atom.
Slow, inefficient, and dangerous is no way to mine for resources.
It is if your running out elsewhere. Why bother mining Venus when it has 0.1 Ac? Because you need the resources.
Considering that the arguments of those in favor of the idea basically seem to boil down to 'I think it sounds neat', I don't see why 'I don't think it sounds neat/I think it sounds silly/implausible' isn't a valid counter-argument.
By adding to the game, even if mining stars is completely impractical compared to just expanding outwards, you add to the possible RP value of the game. Keeping this from the game would only work if it works against the game aesthetics, game balance or is too much effort for the game developer. I for one would not mind seeing a spoiler race mining stars.
But, if that's not enough, see my last post and the first part of this one.
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Ooh, that would be cool, especially if you have consequences for doing it, like reduced output of the star or something. Would give more urgency for clearing out those spoilers.
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Given that Steve mentioned in his RP that TN Materials were found flowing in the crust of planets at completely even quantity, there is no reason to assume you'd have to go straight to the core to get these resources.
Actually, yes there is, when you consider that any elements heavier than helium are going to be found at the core of a star.
I don't think there are TN 'ores'. Otherwise one nation would run out of minerals while another nation could sit on their stash indefinitely.
The word 'ore' is specifically used on the wiki. While I could see sorium as being a gas or a liquid, the rest? What else would they be? Pixie dust?
And you'll be mining all those atoms at once. Several tonnes worth at once in fact. There is no reason why you would mine a star atom-by-atom.
...There is if you're trying to extract tiny quantities of an element from something as large as a star. Maybe 'atom-by-atom' is a slight exaggeration, but I don't think by much.
It is if your running out elsewhere. Why bother mining Venus when it has 0.1 Ac? Because you need the resources.
Sure, but mining Venus isn't nearly as impractical. Especially if you're already strapped for resources.
By adding to the game, even if mining stars is completely impractical compared to just expanding outwards, you add to the possible RP value of the game. Keeping this from the game would only work if it works against the game aesthetics, game balance or is too much effort for the game developer.
I don't disagree with the sentiment from a general standpoint, but I hardly see mining stars being a vital feature. And I've seen a number of suggested features that would do far more to enhance the RP experience than this. I won't complain if the feature is added(and I actually kind of think it wouldn't be a terrible idea for a spoiler to be able to do it), but I would be disappointed if it came at the expense of, say, improvements to the crew/commanders system, to use an example from another thread.
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Right back atcha.
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Don't forget the biggest reason a suggestion gets into the game is that Steve thinks it would enhance his gameplay :)
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This :)
Don't forget the biggest reason a suggestion gets into the game is that Steve thinks it would enhance his gameplay :)
And it cuts in a different direction, but I kind've like Panopticon's idea for consequences of over-mining a star. Though the scale would have to be quite large to imagine, it is a fun idea.
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Don't forget the biggest reason a suggestion gets into the game is that Steve thinks it would enhance his gameplay :)
Good point. Can't fault him for that, lol.
If it does ever make it into the game, I do agree that there should be consequences for over-mining. And/or possibly that it should be limited to the spoilers.
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It'd be a fun way to deal with an opponent that you don't want to invade, mine their sun till it goes dark or whatever and let them freeze to death instead.
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I won't complain if the feature is added(and I actually kind of think it wouldn't be a terrible idea for a spoiler to be able to do it), but I would be disappointed if it came at the expense of, say, improvements to the crew/commanders system, to use an example from another thread.
Agreed. It's a small thing that probably wouldn't affect the gameplay much, it just adds a little flavour. I definitely would not want it interfering with any updates.
It'd be a fun way to deal with an opponent that you don't want to invade, mine their sun till it goes dark or whatever and let them freeze to death instead.
You're a very dark person, you know that?
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You're a very dark person, you know that?
So says the sadist... ;)
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Oh please, like any of us here can say we haven't bombarded a planet from orbit with nuclear weapons.
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Oh please, like any of us here can say we haven't bombarded a planet from orbit with nuclear weapons.
Great sentence.
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Oh please, like any of us here can say we haven't bombarded a planet from orbit with nuclear weapons.
We're supposed to wait til we hit orbit?
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Neutron stars do contain large quantities of iron (and superfluid neutronium) but it's practically impossible to get at those resources due to their high gravity and escape velocity. It's possible in Aurora, of course, but I bet Steve wouldn't allow it.
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I think with TN elements, we have the tendency to think of them like we would a different type of metal ore, and that they act like regular elements. But they don't have to, what if TN elements are always in the form of free floating atoms? Or partly in another dimension? Or even some form of energy state that we "mine" by gathering it in large canisters that we then scatter around the hallways of our ships to be shot and exploded, taking out a group of enemies with one shot?
I mean, they make all this fantastic stuff possible, I don't see why it is such a stretch that they be fantastic themselves.
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Rather than mining stars, I'd prefer to see solar power satellites, a spaceship module that would generate wealth (basically the space station/ship equivalent of financial centers).
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Oh please, like any of us here can say we haven't bombarded a planet from orbit with nuclear weapons.
I can!!
I quite often rock a planet, but that's rarely deliberate :P
but I've never nuked one!
Matt
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An interesting by-product of mineral extraction of a star might be increase or decrease in solar energy output. Extract too many of the minerals and you might alter the environment of the entire system.
From post #17 I get to lay claim to the altering solar output by excessive mining idea. ;)
As previously discussed there are many stars that have mass and surface temperatures that would require nothing more than a modified asteroid miner to pull this off. Main sequence stars could be argued that even in the TN age the technology isn't capable of it but with brown dwarfs why not?
I also propose the feasibility of this from a temperature standpoint via the already existing lack of penalty for close star approaches. I can navigate directly to a star and orbit it, presumably at 0km?, without a problem. I realize that the current mechanics exist because of a desire to not make things too complicated in stellar navigation (and programming too) so TN technology is used to explain away the complications to make it so that close star approaches are possible.
Other aspects of the game would be far more complicated to implement or correct. I presume modifying stars to be mine-able and adding an expensive to research and build solar miner would be a relatively quick task.
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While mining stars is cool I think if you could then alter the output of a star by mining you would introduce a minefield of complexity. By altering the output of a star you would also effect the colony rating of all planetary bodies in orbit of that star. Hell you could feasibly turn Earth into an icy Hoth planet this way. This would then mean you have to alter all your terraforming states.
It's a great idea for uber tech and such but my mind boggles at the amount of extra coding stuff that would be needed to implement such an idea fully. When the game in it's current state struggles to handle load that well I'm not sure such a thing would be of any great benefit for the extra slowdown.
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At least part of the code for solar intensity increase and decrease already exists. It is a start up option you can toggle on and off when you create a new game. I know this affects your starting colony but I haven't checked to see if has an effect on all the other uncolonized system bodies at the same time.
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Seems like sun-mining would make a possible end-game source of resources, allowing you to afford some of the monster ships you can now design and build with end-tech,and provide more of an incentive in the early / mid game to take and hold territory. Even a system with no other bodies could one day be sun-mined, so it has inherent material value.
It might be wise to limit quantities and accessibilty though. Stars are vastly larger than any planet we could exploit, so we'd literally only be able to scratch the surface. Maybe not even the surface, maybe you'd "mine" the corona. Make it a supertech after Sorium mining perhaps, with a few levels for mining rate, like other extraction techs. Since you could tweak the costs and mining rates to suit, you could predetermine the expected breakeven date for the mining modules, based on an average star, and you can fiddle the distribution so "average" can fall where you like, and you could rig the numbers for mining modules to require lots of wealth / crew to limit their deployment too, if you like.
I don't think you need to worry about changing the behaviour of stars within the timescale of Aurora though. Even Pop 0 stars have a life of 10 mil years or so, and it's unlikely they would be worth mining anyway. Extracting millions of tons of anything is inconsequential to a star; consider, our own quite weedy star loses around a billion tons kilograms of mass per second in ordinary solar wind emissions. Any player mining, at any conceivable rate with any conceivable tech just won't even show up.
<edit> I was 3 orders of magnitude out. Still doesn't matter </edit>