Aurora 4x
New Players => The Academy => Topic started by: Rich.h on July 05, 2014, 03:16:01 PM
-
I have only just noticed that the wiki states that cloaking devices only help to reduce active sensor scans and do nothing against passive sensors. So am I right to assume then a cloak does nothing to help avoid detection from the standpoint of a moving ship that is loaded with EM and thermal sensors?
I had thought it would be a device I could place on a scout craft that had huge EM and thermal sensors to help me do system sweeps. Now I am thinking that I would be better off without the cloak and have a smaller craft which in turn can have a smaller engine and thus a smaller thermal signature?
-
Research the thermal reduction line for engines, combine with cloak, get stealthy ships.
-
Cloaks reduce noticeable mass, and thermal dampening reduces noticeable thermal signature.(+just not turning shields on hides the EM signature :P)
The advantage of a cloak is obviously that you can have heavier equipment on crafts and still slip the radar. My most successful usage were stealth scouts with 50HS passive scanners, which still appeared as fighter size and thus could not really be targeted at the ranges they needed to keep the enemies on my radar.
In general I think thermal dampening is much more important though. ...If you even want stealth craft.
-
Cloaking reduces the "apparent size" of your craft, which has the result of making it harder to see and target at range. With enough research you can make a craft that is 15,000 tons appear like it is a fighter, making it very hard to see and shoot (remember you need an active sensor to shoot at something).
Thermal reduction tech makes your engines burn less hot.
You need both to make a "truly invisible" craft at very close ranges and in all possible scenarios, but depending on what you're actually using the craft for, only one or the other is necessary.
Fleets don't usually steam through the depths of space in enemy systems with their active sensors on full blast. it would draw too much attention. Unless you have an overwhelmingly powerful presence in a system, you're usually going to have sensors off until you see something with passive sensors. If you want to scout out an enemy system while avoiding detection by passive sensors including planetary tracking stations, you want thermal reduction. With good thermal reduction tech you can run whole scouting sorties within 10 million KM of giant space fleets and they won't see you.
In the middle of an active battle, everything with an active sensor is going to be using it, and ships will be so darn close that even really good thermal reduction will make them visible. If you want a "stealth bomber" that can drop a lethal payload of missiles on an enemy ship while avoiding being targeted or even seen in the heat of battle, you want cloaking devices.
-
Ok so then thermal reduction is what reduces the chances of being spotted in the first place where as a cloak just reduces the targeting by weapons?
The design I am using this for is more about not being detected at all, if it gets spotted then the game is up and the only option left for this design is to run.
-
Cloak reduces TCS, and therefore reduces active detection and targeting.
Thermal reduction reduces engine thermal sig, and therefore reduces chance of thermal detection.
-
Think of ships like submarines.
I'm in one sub and you are in another. You want to kill me but you need to get close. I want to find you before you get close.
There are two ways I can find you
1: I can listen for you (passive)
2: I can emit a "ping" and listen for the echo of the ping bouncing off you. (active)
Listening for you doesn't give my position away. I can listen all day and you won't see me listening.
"pinging" does, because you can see where the ping is coming from.
Listening for you doesn't give me a perfect picture of where you are (there's other noise, your noise echoes)
"pinging" does
In aurora, weapons cannot target unless a ship is "lit up" by active sensors.
most spacefleets don't just sit there "pinging" all the time. The enemy would see them too easily. usually, they just listen, and only start pinging when they KNOW something is close.
If you want to make a ship that can't be heard by ships that are just listening, you need thermal reduction
if you want to make a ship that can't be seen by ships that are actively pinging, you need cloak
if you want to make a ship that can never ever be seen, you need both.
It is never perfect. You'll ALWAYS encounter some situation in which you are seen (for example if you fly past them at 10,000 KM and fire your guns, they'll see you, even if they are very primitive., but if your tech is high enough, you'll almost never encounter those situation. If you're trying to make a bird of prey type ship that closes to within 10 million kilometers and fires a ton of photon torpedoes, you'll want both thermal reduction and cloaking.
-
Cloaking reduces the "apparent size" of your craft, which has the result of making it harder to see and target at range. With enough research you can make a craft that is 15,000 tons appear like it is a fighter, making it very hard to see and shoot (remember you need an active sensor to shoot at something).
Thermal reduction tech makes your engines burn less hot.
You need both to make a "truly invisible" craft at very close ranges and in all possible scenarios, but depending on what you're actually using the craft for, only one or the other is necessary.
Fleets don't usually steam through the depths of space in enemy systems with their active sensors on full blast. it would draw too much attention. Unless you have an overwhelmingly powerful presence in a system, you're usually going to have sensors off until you see something with passive sensors. If you want to scout out an enemy system while avoiding detection by passive sensors including planetary tracking stations, you want thermal reduction. With good thermal reduction tech you can run whole scouting sorties within 10 million KM of giant space fleets and they won't see you.
In the middle of an active battle, everything with an active sensor is going to be using it, and ships will be so darn close that even really good thermal reduction will make them visible. If you want a "stealth bomber" that can drop a lethal payload of missiles on an enemy ship while avoiding being targeted or even seen in the heat of battle, you want cloaking devices.
I think ECM is more like the "stealth bomber", at least the B2 Spirit and the F117 anyways. The Iraqi AA gunners clearly knew the bombers were there, you can see them firing blindly into the air in the footage from both wars. They just couldn't aim at them. Exactly what ECM does, just reduces Fire Control range.
-
k yeah that's true of a real stealth bomber for sure.
Klingon warbird is a better analogy.
-
If you want to make a ship that can't be heard by ships that are just listening, you need thermal reduction
if you want to make a ship that can't be seen by ships that are actively pinging, you need cloak
Will these two methods considered as passive camouflage?
-
Yes. The thermal reduction precools the engine exhaust before it leaves the engine, like the SABRE. And think of the Cloak as an extra layer to the hull that absorbs active pings (hence why it takes more to cover a larger craft), like the B2 Spirit.
-
So overall, stealth:
1. passive methods - we can research cloaking and thermal reduction construction techniques.
2. active methods - we can research ECM, and by avoid putting the paddle to the metal or using active scans.
-
I wouldn't say ECM is stealth. It degrades the FC.
-
I wouldn't say ECM is stealth. It degrades the FC.
Agreed. ECM Doesn't hide you, it it makes you harder to hit. Not in a direct reduction of chance-to-hit way like extra speed, but by forcing your enemy to get closer.
You could almost lump Microwave beams under stealth tech, though. Blinding your enemy is a good way to avoid being seen. In one of my current games, one of the races I'm playing relies heavily on stealth - including the use of Microwaves to disable enemy sensors. So far their doctrine seems to be to close range stealthily via cloak/thermal reduction in the hopes of getting close enough to shut the enemy down with Microwaves and then bypass defenses entirely with Mesons. Not far enough in the game to declare the doctrine a success or a failure yet. As a slight tangent here, I'll say that one thing I would be *very* interested in seeing is some way to specifically disable enemy engines.
-
Didn't actives and FC use the same formula? If so, then you could say that it helps it avoid detection. But, generally I agree it would be better to cover it on the FC article with ECM and ECCM.
-
Agreed. ECM Doesn't hide you, it it makes you harder to hit. Not in a direct reduction of chance-to-hit way like extra speed, but by forcing your enemy to get closer.
You could almost lump Microwave beams under stealth tech, though. Blinding your enemy is a good way to avoid being seen. In one of my current games, one of the races I'm playing relies heavily on stealth - including the use of Microwaves to disable enemy sensors. So far their doctrine seems to be to close range stealthily via cloak/thermal reduction in the hopes of getting close enough to shut the enemy down with Microwaves and then bypass defenses entirely with Mesons. Not far enough in the game to declare the doctrine a success or a failure yet. As a slight tangent here, I'll say that one thing I would be *very* interested in seeing is some way to specifically disable enemy engines.
Could you give some Examples?
-
When you think of Cloaking its best to think of modern plane construction technique, than startreck invisibility cloak.
There are 3 ways by which you can be detected:
* Active sensor work just like radar, they gather info by bouncing radio waves instant gravitational pulses from crafts. Cloaking is a passive method that allow you to reduce the pulse reflection from the craft (thus making it appear smaller), similarly to how those oddly shaped dark Stealth fighters or even modern ships does it.
Presumably ECM allows to actively counter the active pulses by adding noise that will confuse the radar reducing its precision.
* Thermal sensors, allow to lock on your Engine plume, which can be countered by developing various "thermal reduction" techniques.
* Em sensor, allow to lock on energy sources like radar or shields. Once you go active everyone will know where you are.