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New Players => The Academy => Topic started by: WCG on September 04, 2015, 09:40:15 AM

Title: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: WCG on September 04, 2015, 09:40:15 AM

We all have different interests. I can talk about computer games or science fiction novels until your ears bleed and you beg for release. But when someone keeps talking to me about... oh, sports or guns, for example, my eyes glaze over and I quickly start praying for death (and I'm an atheist!). We're all different, and that's great.

Now, I'm just a beginner here, but Aurora is really something. The exploration, the colonization, the research, the minutia of mining and manufacturing and - again - the research, keep me interested and engaged. But as soon as I start trying to design a military ship - or even a defensive base around the Earth - I get so sleepy, I can't keep my eyes open.

I quit my first game and started over, because I hadn't realized that I was supposed to start with some initial research and a few ships. (Also, I hadn't understood the value of colonies even where there weren't any Trans-Newtonian minerals.) I know I've got some initial points for a Planetary Defense Center, and given that I've discovered aliens in the very first solar system I visited, right next door to us, I know that I should have some kind of defense. But I can't keep my eyes open long enough to build something.

I thought I'd put missiles on the defense center, but I have to design missile engines first, and when I get to the missiles, I have absolutely no idea what range is effective, or what size makes sense, or anything else. There are a million different options I could choose, but I have no idea what's stupid and what isn't. I've been reading the wiki and various posts here, but I get partway through an explanation and I suddenly have to take a nap.

I thought about fighters, too. I like the idea of fighters. But I didn't get far with that, either. I can't seem to start simple and then learn a little more as the game goes on. The military stuff seems like advanced calculus to a poetry major - or vice versa. It's just this mass of detail that I couldn't care less about. (Admittedly, once I learned it, it would probably be great fun. But, in general, I'm not much of a wargamer. I like Aurora for the chance to build and explore, though it wouldn't be fun without the danger, too.)

I'm really enjoying this game, but I keep postponing any kind of defense - even the Planetary Defense Center I was apparently supposed to build before I'd even started playing. And whenever I tell myself I've got to settle down and build something, I study it for about five minutes and then decide that maybe I'll just play Cataclysm for awhile. You know, to take a break. :)

So, is there some military technology that's relatively simple? Is there something you'd recommend that I could get built before I fall asleep? (My head keeps hitting the keyboard, and that's not good!) It's impossible to try out anything before I actually get in a war, and although there's a ton of information available from all of you clever people here, I can't seem to keep my eyes open long enough to read all of it.

Well, even when I read it, it's hard to put it all together, and that's not a problem with the game (although it is incredibly complicated), but mostly a problem with what tends to interest me and what doesn't. It's hard to concentrate on what you don't find particularly interesting. I may find it interesting once I get into a battle, but for now, I need something relatively simple.

What would you recommend? Is there one military technology that's maybe a bit simpler than the others?

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: misora on September 04, 2015, 09:47:21 AM

I would recommend lasers, as they're more simple than missiles to fire. They have less range, but they're overall easier to use.

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: 83athom on September 04, 2015, 09:56:39 AM

I could have sworn I posted this, but oh well (seems to have failed). I said in my post that apparently didn't post for some reason that the gauss would be the "simplest" tech there is for military use. They only use their base techs (velocity and such) that do direct improvements to the weapon with out giving drawbacks (like others). They also need nothing else except the FC and an active sensor contact to fire. Earlier I had a little bit longer explanation, but I am a little pressed for time atm but I had a moment to give.

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: xeryon on September 04, 2015, 09:59:54 AM

The learning curve of building military craft in Aurora isn't a curve it is a vertical cliff. Until you are familiar with the terms and values it's close to impossible to explain how to build a combat craft. There are an infinite number of possibilities and there are a lot of wrong ways to do it but there are also numerous correct ways.

If you want to practice you can create a game, turn on SM (spacemaster) and just give yourself everything for free and can play sandbox mode with building ships. Likewise you can add in some enemies for target practice the same way.

One of the simplest ships to start with is building a laser ship since you don't need to design missiles in that case. You need to design a laser, design a firecontrol for that energy weapon, design a power plant for it, a search sensor and place all of the above onto a hull. If you want it to move you need engines and fuel, if you want it planetside you put it in a PDC, if you want an orbital base just omit the engines and fuel and it becomes a satellite.

The trick is to develop the parts to complement each other. That is where practice will help. You want the power plant to be the correct amount of power and not produce too little (which would require multiples to charge your laser [which might be a good thing for redundancy]) or too much in which case you can add in more lasers or power plants in various multiples to get the optimum power usage. If your laser has a range of 50,000km you want to make sure you have a fire control that reaches that far and so on.

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: xeryon on September 04, 2015, 10:04:05 AM

Oh, and if your first military ship is laser only expect it to die a fiery death in your first combat. Lasers are powerful in certain configurations and fleet roles but as a standalone a simple laser ship is not optimal.

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on September 04, 2015, 12:19:39 PM

Basic steps for creating a missile ship

1.) Design & research a size 2.5 missile engine. Use the highest available speed multiplier
2.) Design & research a size 5 missile launcher
3.) Design & research a size 6 engine with a speed multiplier of 0.75x
4.) Design & research a size 9 active search sensor with a resolution of 100
4b.) Design & research a size 3 missile fire control (subtype of active sensor) with a resolution of 100
5.) Design & research a magazine that has a HTK>1 with a capacity that is a multiple of 5 (this will make your life much easier). I suggest a size 1, 2, or 3 magazine.
6.) Design & research a size 3 EM Detection Sensor

Next design & research a missile. Use the new missile engine, devote 2 MSP to the warhead, and 0.5 MSP to fuel. If the missile range is far greater than that of your sensor, then exchange some of the fuel for points into Agility.

Put 6 military engines onto the design, as well as the active sensor, the missile fire control, and the EM detection sensor. Add 4 engineering spaces, increasing the total to 5. Add 4 fuel storage, increasing the total to 5.. The size 6 engine is 300 tons which gives you a 30% engine ratio if you have 1 per 1000 tons which is pretty servicable. So the target size for this design is 6000 tons. Set the deployment time to 12 months and increase the armor thickness to 4 or 5. Fill the remaining space up to 6000 tons (or Size 120) with missile launchers and magazines in a ratio that you find pleasing. Round off any remaining space by subtracting or adding fuel storage and engineering spaces. The result should be a basically capable missile ship. Once you have worked everything out, go to the Ordnance/Fighter tab, change the selector to 100, and add the missile you designed.

Notes:

-The Active Sensor acquires targets at its target resolution and above; it can detect targets smaller than its resolution, but the range at which it does so decreases dramatically as target size decreases.
-The Missile Fire Control lets you target and fire missiles on vessels detected by any ships Active Sensor. They are three times more powerful for their size than Active Sensors are, thus a size 3 fire control has the same range as a size 9 active sensor.
-The EM Detection Sensor lets you detect the emissions from enemy Active Sensors, which is vital to let you know when you are being targeted. While the capability of a size 3 sensor is limited it should be sufficient to detect long-range missile targeting systems.
-Putting the engine power multiplier at 0.75x is conservative in terms of ship speed but will let you field a vessel with decent range that won't destroy your fuel reserves

Here is a sample ship built using this process

Code: [Select]

Brazil class Missile Frigate    6 000 tons     156 Crew     902.2 BP      TCS 120  TH 432  EM 0
3600 km/s     Armour 5-29     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/33/0/0     Damage Control Rating 5     PPV 20
Maint Life 6.82 Years     MSP 470    AFR 57%    IFR 0.8%    1YR 18    5YR 263    Max Repair 144 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Spare Berths 1    
Magazine 200    

72 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (6)    Power 72    Fuel Use 27.47%    Signature 72    Exp 7%
Fuel Capacity 250 000 Litres    Range 27.3 billion km   (87 days at full power)

Size 5 Missile Launcher (4)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 50
Missile Fire Control FC158-R100 (1)     Range 158.4m km    Resolution 100
Size 5 Anti-ship Missile (35)  Speed: 32 000 km/s   End: 60.8m    Range: 116.8m km   WH: 10    Size: 5    TH: 106/64/32

Active Search Sensor MR158-R100 (1)     GPS 14400     Range 158.4m km    Resolution 100
EM Detection Sensor EM3-33 (1)     Sensitivity 33     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  33m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: GreatTuna on September 04, 2015, 02:07:30 PM

So you want to make a missile?

First off, missile engine. Unless you're going for BIG RANGE, use maximum power modifier allowed, it'll make your missile more capable of hitting targets and avoiding point defences. Size is up to you, though I'd advice making it 50% of total missile mass.

Next up, designing the missile itself. Assign an engine and allocate however much you want in three parts:
1. Warhead - the part that goes boom, the more the better damage you get.
2. Fuel - the more the farther your missile flies.
3. And agility - it is important too, put points here to increase to-hit chances.

Don't put much in the last two, 0.1-0.5 will be fine.
There are also other things, but they're mostly useless: sensors allow to lock on another target if intended is destroyed, ablative armour protects from hits and ECM reduces to-hit chances of PD systems.
Also, try to keep the total size rounded, there are no fractional launchers (5, but no 5.1, getit?)

Okay, now on to the ship. Take a look at example:

Code: [Select]

F-Settembrini III class Raketnyy Kreyser    15 000 tons     301 Crew     4400.5 BP      TCS 300  TH 4800  EM 0
16000 km/s     Armour 6-54     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 12     PPV 66.25
Maint Life 2.97 Years     MSP 2200    AFR 150%    IFR 2.1%    1YR 372    5YR 5583    Max Repair 800 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 48 months    Spare Berths 1    
Magazine 1453    

Izmaylov Foundation 1600 EP Gas Core AM Drive (3)    Power 1600    Fuel Use 13.6%    Signature 1600    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1 250 000 Litres    Range 110.3 billion km   (79 days at full power)

Hit-and-Run ASM System Mk. 3 (53)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 1670
Ratters ASM Launcher Assistant R100\Sz1\T5 (1)     Range 194.4m km    Resolution 100
Ratters AMM Launcher Assistant R1\Sz1\T5 (1)     Range 19.4m km    Resolution 1
Size 5 Anti-ship Missile-4 (290)  Speed: 120 000 km/s   End: 5.6m    Range: 40.7m km   WH: 20    Size: 5    TH: 640/384/192

ExpAI Backup Sensor System-4 (1)     GPS 800     Range 32.0m km    Resolution 100

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Look at it, there are many parts:
1. Armor. Not as important if you're into hit-and-run, but must have otherwise
2. Maintenance. Never forget it, you don't your ship to spontaneously explode on takeoff.
3. Deployment time is important too. If you overdeploy the ship, it'll get penalties, which hurt in combat.
4. Engines and fuel. Your ship won't move without them. I'd recommend to stick either for 1.0x or 0.5x power modifier for starters. If you're looking for proper range, go for 20-30bkm. Enough to cover two-three systems.
5. Weapons.
5.1. If you go beam route, you need BEAM fire control, reactor and the weapon itself. Laser is all-rounder, particle is good for mid-range, railgun is more damaging than lasers, but range and damage profile suffers, mesons ::) go right through any armor and shield but deal only 1 point of damage, microwaves ::) destroy shields and electronics, and plasma carronades are... I dunno, they have better damage per shot at the cost of everything else.
5.2. There is also gauss cannon, good for PD, not so good for anti-ship duties, doesn't require reactors. You can even place them on CIWS to deflect missiles from get-go.
5.3. Missile route. You need MISSILE fire control for that, and missile launcher (either bigger or exact size of your missile) and magazines to store reloads. Bigger launchers reload slower, and bigger magazines ~~are more efficient~~ nevermind.
6. Sensors. You can leave resolution alone for now, 100 HS does rather good job at spotting ships. You can put small sensor on every ship, or make platform for big sensor, or both just in case.

^{Oh my god, this post is getting huge.}

There are, of course, more systems, but they aren't that necessary:
7. Shields. Recharge themselves, but take less hits than same tonnage of armour. Awful early on, gets much better later.
8. Jump drives allow for interstellar travel. Not much use in defense though.
9. Passive sensors. Thermal detects engine emissions, and EM detects active sensor emissions. Not necessary, but you might want to use them, as they won't give your position out like active sensors.
10. Cloaking system reduces cross-section of ship, reducing effective range of hi-res active sensors. Terrible early on.

Last things to note:
1. There are A LOT of designs on bureau, use them as reference, they're rather good.
2. Experiment and learn from your mistakes. Your first ships are very likely either to *just* blow up (for example, when I was starting, I didn't know what maintenance is, so my ships flew pretty well, but I didn't know why they were suddenly exploding?) or get horribly destroyed by enemy.
3. Put only mesons or missile or PDCs, or you will get the "atmosphere stopped damage" when you need enemy destroyed.
4. Don't hesitate to ask?

^{My wording is terrible, sorry for that.}

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: WCG on September 04, 2015, 06:33:38 PM

OK, thanks guys. I'll try.

I had just encountered the aliens next door, which is why I decided I needed to ask. When I went back and started my game again, the aliens immediately blew to hell my poor, defenseless little civilian survey ship. So I guess they're hostile. :) And right next door.

And me with no military whatsoever. :P Ah, well, I'll see what I can do. Thanks again.

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: MarcAFK on September 04, 2015, 06:56:01 PM

A good idea is to make a new game you can use for testing, I would copy the whole aurora folder just in case, it also stood your event logs from getting screwed up(I think).
Then when you create a new game on that version, set up everything the same way as you did for your current game, but select the option to automatically assign research points and design ship systems. When you load the class design screen you'll see a bunch of ships already designed. They won't be completely optomal but they're a good benchmark for what's possible for the tech level (though the systems you can create might be different depending on what tech you spent your starting research points on)

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: WCG on September 05, 2015, 08:13:20 AM

My doomed survey ship encountered two different alien ships next door where I'd sent them to explore, but we only got information from one. That ship had a speed of 5684 km/s (compared to my new missile destroyers, which have a speed of 1800 km/s - my survey ship, even slower, didn't have a chance of escaping).

And it shot anti-missile missiles at my ship, before it got close and switched to an anti-ship missile (12 damage in one hit).

But when I look at the description of that same alien ship in the screen about the species, that gives the armament as "3X Particle Beam," with a damage of 6. What's up with that? We were attacked with missiles, not beam weapons.

Note that, if it matters, I don't have a Diplomacy Team, because I don't have five people with diplomacy skill. Well, I'm only a year and a half into the game. I don't have anything much but the research and the handful of ships (now including two missile destroyers, per TheDeadlyShoe's pattern) I started with.

I followed TheDeadlyShoe's pattern exactly (thanks for that!), though in most cases, I have no idea why I'd pick one number rather than another. But it gave me a start. Now, since I know that the enemy use missiles themselves (indeed, have anti-missile defenses), I might attempt to use that pattern - more or less - but change the design into a laser anti-missile ship which can patrol in the same task group to protect the fleet. Assuming I can get it researched and built in time. (I won't 'instant' this one into existence.)

That pattern gave me a start, as did the other recommendations here. As I say, I'm only a year and a half into the game. I didn't expect to be at war so quickly. But a true heart can overcome any obstacle, right? :)

Thanks again.

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: linkxsc on September 05, 2015, 09:54:15 AM

Intel screen only gives you "known" info. it can often lack any information about enemy ships at all, even though you as the player might have seen a range of armament. I've even salvaged enemy ships and gotten weapons /sensors off of them that should now be "known" and had intel not update to say that this is what the ship had for an active sensor or such.

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on September 05, 2015, 04:03:17 PM

the intel screen is somewhat archaic, it was designed for an earlier ruleset for aurora where having a target in active sensor range would gradually give you information about that ship

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: WCG on September 06, 2015, 07:35:44 AM

Ah, OK. Thanks.

You know, I encountered those hostile aliens again - the same ones - in another solar system we were exploring through a completely different jump point. Again, their ships blew away my unarmed survey ship before we could get away. (Well, the alien ships are more than three times as fast as my ships - nearly four times as fast as my survey ships.)

I'm still less than two years into the game, and I've got hostile aliens on two fronts. :P

What do you guys do, normally? Do you avoid exploring until your economy can support a strong military? Do you stay in Sol system until you feel prepared for war?

I'm watching a video series on YouTube, and he's nearly twenty years into the game without even surveying the jump points around Sol. Of course, he did a conventional start, which makes a big difference. But if I understand correctly, a conventional start puts you even further behind the aliens, since they start the same way regardless of how the player starts, right? Probably not for a beginner, then. Heh, heh.

I'm thinking of restarting (again) and, this time, staying in Sol system until I feel brave. If I ever do. :D

PS. I guess I expected aliens to be more widely scattered in the galaxy than they are. I figured I could at least explore the systems right next door without getting into a war. But unless I'm just unlucky, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: AL on September 06, 2015, 07:51:36 AM

In my previous game I had surveyed over 50 systems without finding any serious NPR's - only a couple scattered spoilers here and there... I think it's fair to say there can be a bit of varience involved.

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: linkxsc on September 06, 2015, 12:28:14 PM

Just a question, what does your survey ship look like stat wise. Before you start a new game, perhaps we could help optimize and speed that thing up so it dies less often?

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: WCG on September 07, 2015, 09:59:07 AM

Quote from: linkxsc on September 06, 2015, 12:28:14 PM

Just a question, what does your survey ship look like stat wise. Before you start a new game, perhaps we could help optimize and speed that thing up so it dies less often?

My survey ship was - and is - limited in size to 3,000 tons, since that's the biggest ship that can use the first level jump engine. With a geological survey sensor, there's really nothing much I can add to it. In fact, I wanted to put two sensors on it, but there's simply no room. As far as I can see, there's no room for anything else. I could cut back on fuel a little bit, but what could I add in such a small amount of space that would make any difference?

Note that I make the gravitational survey ships identical, except for the difference in sensor (and that makes the whole thing a military ship, of course). But given the fact that the alien ships were three times as fast as even my much larger (and non-jump capable) military ships, and almost four times as fast as these survey ships with their commercial grade engines, I don't see anything I could have done. Maybe later in the game, but not at the start.

Hmm,... well, I suppose I could have used military engines. (I did use a military jump drive, since that was all that would fit.) Indeed, I could fit four military engines into the space of one commercial engine. But that would only increase the ship's speed by 50%, and it would still be less than half as fast as the alien ships. I don't think that would help at all.

Obviously, I'm just a beginner, so if I'm missing something here, please let me know. I appreciate the comments and tips I've received.

Anyway, I started over with a new game. This time, I figure I won't leave Sol System until I've played awhile. I set the "number of computer-controlled Empires at game start" to zero, which should mean - I hope - that I won't have aliens coming here, not until I start exploring the galaxy myself, at least.

Somewhere, I read that the "maximum number of systems" affects whether alien empires are spread out or more concentrated. That doesn't make sense to me, but I changed that number to 1200 anyway, just in case. To me, it seems like the "non-player race generation chance" would do more to affect that. So I changed that number from 30 to 25 - not huge changes, in either case, but slightly favoring my style of play, hopefully. I am more interested in growing a civilization, rather than just waging war (though the threat of war, at least, is certainly important).

The big problem with my previous game was encountering hostile aliens within a year and a half. I'm past that now, in this one (not too far past). I've got all of Earth's jump points surveyed, and I can't wait to see where they lead. But this time, I'm going to wait until I've got better research, more factories, bigger ship-builders, and a wealthier economy.

The aliens will still kick my butt, no doubt, but maybe I'll have some options then. :)

Edit: Hmm,... I just thought of something. Rather than sending my GeoSurvey ships to scout new solar systems, I suppose I could design a dedicated scout, with just passive sensors. If I work to increase the tech level of my passive sensors, I might be able to discover aliens before they discover me. And then just leave. :)

I'm a little confused, though. The wiki says that EM Sensors are passive sensors, but the game (in the Research window) says that EM Sensors "provide the 'listening' portion of active sensors." So, are they passive or active sensors? Should I just be using Thermal Sensors on a scout?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: CharonJr on September 07, 2015, 01:39:06 PM

Since EM is just listening they are passive sensors, but in addition to being a passive sensor when build/researched that way they are a component for an active sensor system as well.

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: Ostia on September 07, 2015, 01:49:39 PM

Quote from: WCG on September 07, 2015, 09:59:07 AM

My survey ship was - and is - limited in size to 3,000 tons, since that's the biggest ship that can use the first level jump engine. With a geological survey sensor, there's really nothing much I can add to it. In fact, I wanted to put two sensors on it, but there's simply no room. As far as I can see, there's no room for anything else. I could cut back on fuel a little bit, but what could I add in such a small amount of space that would make any difference?

When you design a Jump Drive you have an option for the size. Build a bigger JD and you can fit more stuff into it. (Design the ship first, and design the JD just to fit the ship design with maybe 500 tons of extra space for the extra crew)

Quote

Note that I make the gravitational survey ships identical, except for the difference in sensor (and that makes the whole thing a military ship, of course). But given the fact that the alien ships were three times as fast as even my much larger (and non-jump capable) military ships, and almost four times as fast as these survey ships with their commercial grade engines, I don't see anything I could have done. Maybe later in the game, but not at the start.

I start the other way around. Grav first, Geo with swapped sensors. Grav survey ships need maintenance, which your civil Geo ship cant provide without altering he entire design.

Quote

Hmm,... well, I suppose I could have used military engines. (I did use a military jump drive, since that was all that would fit.) Indeed, I could fit four military engines into the space of one commercial engine. But that would only increase the ship's speed by 50%, and it would still be less than half as fast as the alien ships. I don't think that would help at all.

See above with my comment on JD size. You seem to have gotten engine size down at least. Rue of thumb: Larger size means better performance.

Quote

Obviously, I'm just a beginner, so if I'm missing something here, please let me know. I appreciate the comments and tips I've received.

Anyway, I started over with a new game. This time, I figure I won't leave Sol System until I've played awhile. I set the "number of computer-controlled Empires at game start" to zero, which should mean - I hope - that I won't have aliens coming here, not until I start exploring the galaxy myself, at least.

To get a truly Alien free universe you also have to disable the Spoilers Precursor, Invader, Star Swarm. or else there will be a chance for those to be spawned in every new system you visit.

Quote

Somewhere, I read that the "maximum number of systems" affects whether alien empires are spread out or more concentrated. That doesn't make sense to me, but I changed that number to 1200 anyway, just in case. To me, it seems like the "non-player race generation chance" would do more to affect that. So I changed that number from 30 to 25 - not huge changes, in either case, but slightly favoring my style of play, hopefully. I am more interested in growing a civilization, rather than just waging war (though the threat of war, at least, is certainly important).

Maximum number of systems influences the JP connection density of the map. More Systems = less back links simply speaking. NPR generation chance is the probability of a new NPR being generated on a suitable world in a newly discovered system.

Quote

The big problem with my previous game was encountering hostile aliens within a year and a half. I'm past that now, in this one (not too far past). I've got all of Earth's jump points surveyed, and I can't wait to see where they lead. But this time, I'm going to wait until I've got better research, more factories, bigger ship-builders, and a wealthier economy.

The aliens will still kick my butt, no doubt, but maybe I'll have some options then. :)

Taking it slowly is always an option. Better way of getting used to the game.

Quote

Edit: Hmm,... I just thought of something. Rather than sending my GeoSurvey ships to scout new solar systems, I suppose I could design a dedicated scout, with just passive sensors. If I work to increase the tech level of my passive sensors, I might be able to discover aliens before they discover me. And then just leave. :)

I'm a little confused, though. The wiki says that EM Sensors are passive sensors, but the game (in the Research window) says that EM Sensors "provide the 'listening' portion of active sensors." So, are they passive or active sensors? Should I just be using Thermal Sensors on a scout?

Thanks!

The EM Sensitivity plays into both the pure EM Sensor which is passive AND the Active Search Sensor. Please not that you don't need an extra EM sensor to use an ASS. And practically speaking: Thermal spots engines, EM spots shields. So Thermal is more practical if you are hunting ships, as most things will have engines.

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: GreatTuna on September 07, 2015, 02:07:33 PM

IIRC the maximal number of systems affects only not-real-stars games.

I should say that I design survey ships similar way. Both grav- and geo-survey ships share the similar layout, 3kton mass, 25HS 0.1x power mod engines, 300 months of deployment time and enough maintenance supplies for 20 years. Of course, the moment any alien spots it you're better off abandoning it to reduce crew losses.

If you're starting with zero NPRs, you're completely safe from all three spoilers until you start exploring further.

Also, @Ostia: EM also spots sensors, and most military ships have sensors.

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: linkxsc on September 07, 2015, 02:59:30 PM

Well on the general note of survey ships. You generally want them quite fast actually, faster than your main warships, and hopefully faster than ships you'll run across. Thats how they stay alive.
Might I point you to these designs that I use, pretty much every game I start, give or take a little bit in the design.

Off-Topic: show

I might use other designs when putting about in Sol, with lower tech engines and no jump drives. But I try to make sure I can field something like these before I set foot outside of Sol. (also very regularly, picking a trans newtonian start can field these year 1)
All 4 designs use the same size 50 pwrmod 1 military engine. Which can be scaled to lower techs, the exact same engine combo on nuclear pulse will do 3333km/s i think.
And the jump drive requires jump efficiency 6 (usually TN start gives 5 or 6).

But forget about the technology in them. the single most important thing about these 4 designs.
If a navy yard is geared for producing either the geosurvey or gravsurvey ships, all 4 can be produced from the same yard without ever needing to retool.
Take the same design, scale the engines up a couple tech levels, and replace the sensors with newer more advanced ones, and you'll only need to retool 1 yard every once in a while to crap out all your passive scout ships.

Off-Topic: show

Ofcourse, should you copy these designs. No. Actually they're turning out to be worse than I'd have liked. But the general concept is that in the early game, being able to turn out multiple ships for use in early exploration from the same yard can be an enormous money and time saver. Especially if 1 gets shot down, but you already shifted the yard over to produce something else, now you can't keep scouting till you turn it back and produce another ship. Also even though the 2 sensor ships aren't great (full military spotters would have sensor arrays in the size 50 range) They're cheap, and easily kept around, don't worry too much if 1 is lost because the yard is already geared to turn out another. And they're alright to leave on their own in a system to keep watch on an NPR.

As far as actually scouting.
The EM detector isn't so important of all of them, but you should have at least a couple, because they'll spot planets with colonies on them from significantly farther off than anything else. (for example, a planet with ~100m population will have ~2k for its thermal sig, but over 6k for its EM. The EM spotter will pick up this colony from 4x the range as the GEV and GSV ship's EM sensors. and 3x as far as the thermal will with its sensor) This will keep your scouts safer cause you can now avoid those planets, until you have something armed in system. Also wil help you pick up on what the target may be using for active sensors.

A thermal or 2 is kept around near either friendly survey ships, or known NPR colonies, because they'll pick up ships/thermal contacts from 4x the range as the surveyors. EM isn't so useful for this because not many ships will have shields, and most don't run around with their actives turned on.

Then for the GEV and GSV themselves. I usually like to have a lot of them. I like to pop into systems and have them fully scouted out within a month or so. 8-10 of each, they're cheap anyways.

Onto your other statements. Odds are what you ran across was either some spoilerswhich would be ok. you say that they were going 3x faster than oyur military ships though. see this could also be just whatever given NPR, their FACs that a lot of them like to use for homeworld defense.

As far as setting 0 NPRs at start. Yes this will stop there from being any NPRs ingame until you actually leave sol, and go to a system that can generate them, and cause them to be generated. Good for having some time to get some techs before moving out. However remember, at 100% difficulty mod, newly generated NPRs will have similar tech to you (though probably kinda crap ship designs, they don't generally have very efficient designs)

Dunno about that max number of systems stuff. And building up a bit before branching out initially is generally a good plan.

For your edits.
Perhaps you could send in some dedicated scouts first before scanning a system, but I try and do both at the same time (hence the EM and Therm designs) since ifyou pull out all your scouts and just leave the surveyors in a normal game where there are NPRs starting with you, you can easily find yourself losing a bunch of surveyors while your scouts are off in a different system looking around.

EM sensor tech is used for 3 things: Passive EM sensors
Active Sensors (required for locking onto enemy ships to fire weapons. The EM portion of these however is tuned to work only with the resolution set for the active sensor though, so you can't use it to detect colonies and shielded ships passively like a regular passive EM sensor can)
Last, its a portion of missile fire controls, for the same reasons as it is part of active sensors (and well, they're both designed with the same menu)you need at least 1 of these on any ship thats going to fire a missile.

Edit in other news. I dunno how to use the forums properly

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: Paul M on September 08, 2015, 03:06:30 AM

You could have a look at my AAR...there are designs for various survey ships and PDCs (though ignore the laser turrets on some of them as I didn't realize lasers didn't work through atmospheres for some time). The meson weapons aren't actually that but are "atmosphere peircing lasers" in the in-game technology.

These are ships designed within the limits of early tech. The pathfinder class scout is still at 3000 tonnes more or less. The George Vancouvers though are 4500 tonnes since that is about the smallest I could get with sensors and weapons plus the jump drive. I will specifically build a jump drive for them next jump engine itteration as the survey force needs 4 ships but not the assault range, they much prefer to come in closer to the jump point. I lost most of the early 3000 tonne science ships to hostile action. After that BuSurvey demanded something better...and the George Vancouver in the latest modernization was well recieved. The scout class is intended to do stealthy probes to find out if the bloody system has an infestation or not...and afterwards it works as a geosurvey ship.

Also consider that you can build OWPs (orbital weapon platforms) by making ships that have no engines...these can be used for missile defence of your homeworld.

As well you can find missile design formula's they are optimized to generate the fastest missiles...so are better for CMs as AS missiles often have to be "sub-optimal" to fulfill other mission requirements.

Title: Re: Sleepy-time military?
Post by: WCG on September 08, 2015, 07:14:38 PM

Thanks, guys. As always, your comments were helpful, though I may have to leave this post open while I play the game. :)

Aurora 4x

New Players => The Academy => Topic started by: WCG on September 04, 2015, 09:40:15 AM