Aurora 4x
New Players => The Academy => Topic started by: Gabethebaldandbold on February 14, 2016, 11:59:40 AM
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so I was designing my new missiles, and I found a thing on special modifiers called laser warhead. so. . .
how do I get those?
how do they work?
and, most importantly, can I make a swarm of combat drones with those?
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so I was designing my new missiles, and I found a thing on special modifiers called laser warhead. so. . .
how do I get those?
how do they work?
and, most importantly, can I make a swarm of combat drones with those?
Laser warheads turn the nuclear detonation into a series of explosive lasers, quantity depending on how much WH is on the nuke. They essentially split into that many shots on impact, giving it a different damage profile, but, importantly, completely bypassing CIWS and final-fire defenses. You need x-ray laser tech, give or take, to research it.
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Laser warheads turn the nuclear detonation into a series of explosive lasers, quantity depending on how much WH is on the nuke. They essentially split into that many shots on impact, giving it a different damage profile, but, importantly, completely bypassing CIWS and final-fire defenses. You need x-ray laser tech, give or take, to research it.
so... no combat drones launched from missile launchers that go around like pew pew pew pew?
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so... no combat drones launched from missile launchers that go around like pew pew pew pew?
You can do the same with extreme-miniaturized fighters with lasers at the same tech level, launched from hangars.
Bomb-pumped lasers are basically the real life Project Excalibur, except fully technologically realized, and firing lasers much stronger than the nukes that they would have been intended to defeat in real life. Also, taped to a missile as the warhead.
Each missile will only fire it's payload once before it's spent, in this case, because the whole thing is blown up before it reaches the target to blast some laser it's surface.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Excalibur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Excalibur)
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You can do the same with extreme-miniaturized fighters with lasers at the same tech level, launched from hangars.
Bomb-pumped lasers are basically the real life Project Excalibur, except fully technologically realized, and firing lasers much stronger than the nukes that they would have been intended to defeat in real life. Also, taped to a missile as the warhead.
Each missile will only fire it's payload once before it's spent, in this case, because the whole thing is blown up before it reaches the target to blast some laser it's surface.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Excalibur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Excalibur)
ok... but the downside of miniaturized fighters is that I need to put people on them, and I can use the same space to put carry my MIG Fighters, which seem a little bit less suicidal for my pilots, and also less expensive in the long run
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ok... but the downside of miniaturized fighters is that I need to put people on them, and I can use the same space to put carry my MIG Fighters, which seem a little bit less suicidal for my pilots, and also less expensive in the long run
It's the cost of mobile beam platforms which can be given orders and fire multiple times.
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Are laser warheads working correctly now? I checked the 7.0/7.1/7.2 change notes and didn't notice anything. I thought they were broken... ???
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They have always worked as intended, they just don't work the same as regular missiles.
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Do they? I tried them a few days ago and it seemed to me that all the laser heads did, was cut the detonation strenght by 30 percent. There wasn't anything else noticeable.
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They bypass Final Fire defenses and they have a different damage profile.
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And what, if I may ask, is this different damage profile?
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Of the cubed root instead of the square root that normal missiles have. Though I don't remember it additional heads separate the damage to multiple beams (you can see the number of heads a laser missile has when designing, not something you set) as I don't use them much.
(http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/images/1/12/DamageTemplate.png)
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I presume the numbers denote which tiles of armor will be broken by that level of warhead, yes? So a level 3 laser punches through three layers, one wide, but a level 3 conventional does one layer, three wide?
Laser warheads are, therefore, superior in terms of armor penetration, then? Or do you have to put so much conventional to make a similar laser that it becomes less useful?
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Two major things. 1) Conventional missile damage technology outpaces laser warhead technology, making conventional warheads more size efficient in damage. 2) I mentioned heads on laser missiles, when you add enough MSP to a laser warhead an additional head is created. What I think happens (since I haven't tested them too much) is that you get the damage of the laser missile being overall, so is divided between the beams. So one head at 5 damage will do its damage, while two heads at 10 damage will do two 5 damage hits in different locations. In that case, a 10 damage conventional warhead out damages the 10 damage laser with two heads.
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Okay, that would explain it then, I suppose.
In other words: They aren't very useful at the moment and won't be, unless higher laser techs would be made available to them, seeing as they stop at extreme x-ray.
In my current game, a strenght-36 warhead is cut down to strenght-22 and two laser heads once I check the box. Now in theory, if you take overall damage with the different damage profile, that would be superior....but without knowing exactly what the effect of having 2 laser heads is, it's a bit of a gamble. You're either smashing through 8 layers of armor, or you're sandpapering it a bit deeper than usual at 3 layers. The difference in effect is quite big.
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Okay, that would explain it then, I suppose.
In other words: They aren't very useful at the moment and won't be, unless higher laser techs would be made available to them, seeing as they stop at extreme x-ray.
In my current game, a strenght-36 warhead is cut down to strenght-22 and two laser heads once I check the box. Now in theory, if you take overall damage with the different damage profile, that would be superior....but without knowing exactly what the effect of having 2 laser heads is, it's a bit of a gamble. You're either smashing through 8 layers of armor, or you're sandpapering it a bit deeper than usual at 3 layers. The difference in effect is quite big.
Their main use was already enunciated on: slipping past final fire. At that tech level, you'll be able to almost completely bypass point defense by making high speed Size 1 laser warhead missiles and firing them in rather large salvos, as CIWS, gauss, railguns and the like will be almost helpless to stop them (unless it's some kinda high tech gauss with range). At that point, the only hope to prevent such an attack is a long range turreted array of mesons or lasers, and a lot of them, or anti-missile barrages.
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Hmm, I suppose I'll keep it in mind if I run into trouble with missile hit rates. So far, they wouldn't be useful to have.
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Hmm, I suppose I'll keep it in mind if I run into trouble with missile hit rates. So far, they wouldn't be useful to have.
Basically, it's just a damage tradeoff to be able to ignore an entire layer of point defense. It all depends on how you use it, and how your target is defended. In terms of PvP, I've managed to actually come up with an early game design for a planetary defense network that is almost completely impenetrable to missiles even many tech levels above it, save for either laser warheads or absolutely nutters level of missile saturation (stronger than AMM spam, really). Or 100,000 km/s missiles, but that was still early game tech I was using, so...
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Can someone explain how the actual warhead numbers work? I understand how they fire before making physical contact, and the damage pattern and reduced damage. But to give an example I created a missile that had a WH of 25, when I turned this into a laser warhead the damage dropped to 13 (straight forward I figured simply reduced damage to balance how it skips CIWS). However in the second line I also see "Laser Heads:3", does this mean I get 3 chances to hit, do I do 3 hits of 13 damage each, or something entirely different?
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Can someone explain how the actual warhead numbers work? I understand how they fire before making physical contact, and the damage pattern and reduced damage. But to give an example I created a missile that had a WH of 25, when I turned this into a laser warhead the damage dropped to 13 (straight forward I figured simply reduced damage to balance how it skips CIWS). However in the second line I also see "Laser Heads:3", does this mean I get 3 chances to hit, do I do 3 hits of 13 damage each, or something entirely different?
13 damage split between 3 lasers. (2 4 damage, 1 5 damage)
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Sorry, but I've asked the same in another old thread yesterday because I wanted to put the info in the wiki: http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=Laser_warheads
...and I've been told that LWHs are broken. Also, I don't understand the relation between LWH tech levels, warhead and damage. Can you explain it as if talking to a five-year old?
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Start a new game (Earth, two players, no NPRs, no spoilers), SM mode, instant yourself a bunch of tech, design a missile with laser warheads, design a missile ship for you and an armoured hulk for the other guy, and shoot a missile. The give the other guy some point Defense and shoot a few more missiles one at a time. Design a LWH missile with multiple laser rods. Be sure to SM instant repair the armour between hits, so you can accurately gauge the damage profiles. Vary the warhead sizes so you can confirm the damage profiles given above. Report back on your results.
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I decided to test this. Two target ship classes with 25 layers of armor, one mounted with a point-defense laser and the other with a CIWS system.
The missiles I built used 8x warhead per MSP and extreme x-ray laser head tech. The standard warhead missile was 2msp for 16 warhead. Interestingly, the number of laser heads is determined as Size in MSP (2MSP, 2 heads), and the option increased total damage by 25% (From 16 to 20, from 4 to 5, from 12 to 15). Damage per head is total damage / number of heads, so 2 heads with a total damage of 20 means each head does 10 damage.
Finally, as to the tests. Standard missile did the expected footprint, locked up by point defenses and CIWS. Laser heads, on the other hand, bypassed final defensive fire completely. Interestingly though I found that they use the missile damage footprint rather than the laser damage footprint -- I had a nice 10-damage 3-deep crater with the extra point of damage hanging off.
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What if you set the laser to area defense mode or something?
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Then it will fire at the missile, but if the missile is sufficiently fast it will 1) get through the range quickly and 2) be too fast to hit accurately.
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It's been a while, but the last time I checked the laser warheads detonated at 10,000 km range. If you set the range for final protective fire at 20,000 km then it would still get a chance to shoot a laser warhead missile down. The drawback to this is the point defense will have a reduction in accuracy. How much of a reduction will depend on the fire control involved.
brian
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If you set the range for final protective fire at 20,000 km then it would still get a chance to shoot a laser warhead missile down.
Final fire is not affected by the set point defense range and is always at 1000km.
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So what's the range setting for final fire used for? Was that just Steve being lazy with the forms?
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So what's the range setting for final fire used for? Was that just Steve being lazy with the forms?
It's possible he was being lazy, I will check and get back later.
Brian
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I ran a test sequence with laser warheads attacking ships. The point defense was initially set to 15000 km final fire mode, and no point defense fired. When I tried normal warheads the point defense did fire but at a shorter range (1000km I think). I then tried area defense and that did work, but it is not very effective. the missiles had to be engaged at a long enough range that the fire control had problems hitting the missiles. The actual chance to hit is dependent on where the missiles end up inside the engagement zone. For example if the point defense is set to 100,000 km and the missiles end up at 110,000 at the end of a 5 second turn then the point defense will not fire. If instead the range was 40,000 km then that would be the range the point defense would fire at. If your point defense beam weapons can fire every 5 seconds, I would recommend setting the range limit to the maximum range of the fire control. This will give you the most chances of hitting an incoming missile. Against normal warheads this is problematic as the to hit chances are lower and even if you get a couple of shots fired they may not have as good a chance to hit a missile as in final protective fire. Against laser warhead missiles, it is the only option available for beam point defense.
Of note is that a CIWS system will not fire on laser warhead missiles at all as they detonate to far away from the ship.
The damage that the laser warhead does is only dependent on the tech of the laser warhead. Each missile space is considered a different warhead so a size 10 missile with a size 3 laser warhead is treated as 3 separate hits against the armor. The normal warhead size does not matter for this.
Brian
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So to summarize the findings in this thread:
1. Laser warheads do work
2. LWH ignore CIWS
3. LWH ignore final fire as that is hardcoded to fire at 10,000 km
4. Area defense does target the missiles carrying LWH and its engagement range can be adjusted
5. Each LWH is a separate attack against target
Did I miss anything?
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So to summarize the findings in this thread:
5. Each LWH is a separate attack against target
Did I miss anything?
Nope, you are correct. The LWH missile has one attack, when it hits it does damage as several smaller warheads (number depending on the size of the missile warhead).
It is an easy way to avoid a lot of beam point defense, but it does nothing against missile based point defense. I am also not sure if it would work in atmosphere. My gut feeling is that with current rules it would, but it shouldn't work as the atmosphere should reduce the warhead strength.
Brian