Aurora 4x
New Players => The Academy => Topic started by: serger on May 08, 2016, 05:58:00 AM
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1st of all - big thanks for this beautiful old-style game! After a pair of newbie starts with utterly wrong game options, I have now my 1st longterm campaign, and this is great crazy amusement!
And now I have one newbie question, that I venture to ask here, 'cause Aurora wiki is down and I cannot read an answer there.
So, version 7. 1 (not 7. 2! that was my fail, I miss to update installation in time), and I built my first set of commercial interstellar ship designs, and among them a heavy jump capable tug for those cases, when I need to drag some of those regular ships from systems, still not connected with 2-way jump gate.
But when I try to use this jump capable tug exactly for her mission - I have only a transit failure messages!
Here are those ships in question.
Incapable jump tug:
Kreios I class Jump Tender 36 850 tons 322 Crew 1494.4 BP TCS 737 TH 4000 EM 0
5427 km/s JR 2-25(C) Armour 1-98 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 4 PPV 0
MSP 104 Max Repair 100 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 8 months Spare Berths 3
Tractor Beam
JC 2x40000 Max Ship Size 40500 tons Distance 25k km Squadron Size 2
DC Heavy Interim MP (10) Power 400 Fuel Use 5.3% Signature 400 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 1 000 000 Litres Range 92.2 billion km (196 days at full power)
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
And unlucky freighter, stuck in frontier star system:
City II class Freighter 38 900 tons 150 Crew 812 BP TCS 778 TH 2000 EM 0
2570 km/s Armour 1-102 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
MSP 13 Max Repair 100 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months Spare Berths 1
Cargo 25000 Cargo Handling Multiplier 10
DC Heavy Interim MP (5) Power 400 Fuel Use 5.3% Signature 400 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 500 000 Litres Range 43.6 billion km (196 days at full power)
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
Several SM testings just confused me finally with contradictory results.
I read old threads here, and see 2 unexpected things, though there was about old versions of game, but. . :
1. Jump squadron size was limited with SUM of ship sizes, not with max ship size, that is wrote in jump engine description.
2. Jump squadron size was limited with jump capable SHIP size, not with her DRIVE max ship size.
So, the question is: which of those 2 game mechanics features still actual in 7. 1 version and are they actual for both commercial and military designs?
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There is a bug that when your jump ship is not exact or bigger then the ship you want to jump, it wont go, even if the jump drive is the same size.
I have had a lot of problem, when jumping to a system was possiable, but the way back, my ships where to big.
Now i use SM edit, to correct the fenomen. (edit the ships to the right size.)
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It's not a bug. It's working as intended. The jump tender needs to be at least as big as the piggybacking ship(s). Any extra capacity on the jump tender's jump drive is ignored.
Throw some more fuel or engines or even armor on the jump tender to get it's size up to 40,000 tons or so and you'll be set. Your second description is accurate.
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It's not a bug. It's working as intended. The jump tender needs to be at least as big as the piggybacking ship(s). Any extra capacity on the jump tender's jump drive is ignored.
Throw some more fuel or engines or even armor on the jump tender to get it's size up to 40,000 tons or so and you'll be set. Your second description is accurate.
Tnx, for correcting my lines of text and for giving me a beter insight of the game.
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Well, my beatiful plans with some neatly specialised ship designs was broken completely. . . :)
Thanx!
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Wow been playing this for a year and a half and i didnt even know that this was a rule... but itend to only use self jumping ships, fleet tenders of identical size to the fleet they support, or gates.
Well recommends to the op, fuel and engines. Usually cant go wrong deagging around some extra fuel.
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Well, 2nd try.
Here is my new heavy jump capable tug:
Atlas I class Tug 52 400 tons 438 Crew 2698.8 BP TCS 1048 TH 7500 EM 0
7156 km/s JR 2-25(C) Armour 1-124 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 4 PPV 0
MSP 129 Max Repair 125 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 48 months Spare Berths 2
Tractor Beam
JDC 7000/2x52500t Max Ship Size 52500 tons Distance 25k km Squadron Size 2
DC Heavy Interim ICF (15) Power 500 Fuel Use 3.54% Signature 500 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 5 000 000 Litres Range 485.2 billion km (784 days at full power)
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
And here is a gate builder station, that I try to pull through the jump point:
Unity I class Construction Ship 51 200 tons 110 Crew 1235 BP TCS 1024 TH 0 EM 0
1 km/s Armour 1-122 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
MSP 15 Max Repair 10 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 72 months Spare Berths 0
Jump Gate Construction Ship: 180 days
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
The same result!
What. I. Am. Doing. Wrong? Exclamation point.
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It might be the fact your construction ship does not have an engine.
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So, there is no way to transport station through the jump point in tow?
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I do not believe so.
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Is this with squadron jump or standard transit?
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What if you tug the station to the jump point, uncouple them, then order the station to jump?
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What if you tug the station to the jump point, uncouple them, then order the station to jump?
That does work.
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Is this with squadron jump or standard transit?
Any of them.
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What if you tug the station to the jump point, uncouple them, then order the station to jump?
How could this station jump without jump drive?. .
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It might be the fact your construction ship does not have an engine.
This modification have the same result:
Unity IIb class Construction Ship 52 500 tons 115 Crew 1448 BP TCS 1050 TH 25 EM 0
23 km/s Armour 1-124 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
MSP 17 Max Repair 10 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 72 months Spare Berths 0
Jump Gate Construction Ship: 150 days
DC Mini Economic NTE (1) Power 25 Fuel Use 0.54% Signature 25 Exp 2%
Fuel Capacity 5 000 Litres Range 3.1 billion km (1543 days at full power)
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
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As 83athom already mentioned, you need to uncouple the station from the tug when it reached the jump point, jump the station alone, then jump the tug and recouple the station to continue taking it to wherever. I don't remember it being such a hassle, but I rarely use tugs.
Btw your updated design is 100 tons too heavy for the tug. I reccomend shoving some more fuel onto the tug to make it an even 52,500 tons.
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MarcAFK, I'm still don't understand how are you suggesting my station to jump without jump drive...
As for tug size - thanx. I was absolutely sure, that Atlas have a mass of 52,500 tons precisely, but smth with my brain went wrong again. :-\
Modified tug with additional fuel tanks successfully towed this station through the jump point just now.
So, finally:
If you want to tow your stations through the jump points without gates and without stops, than you have to remember, that:
1. Jump capable tug must have a mass greater or equal to station, that she tow, not only a jump drive with this mass capability.
2. Station in question must have an engine to follow the tug through the jump point without jump gate, although you have no need to order this TG to release tractored ship (= to use their own engine for every ship in question) before every jump.
It looks a bit paradoxical, but it works and release you from additional boring micromanagement with jump tramps.
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If you want to tow your stations through the jump points without gates and without stops, than you have to remember, that:
1. Jump capable tug must have a mass greater or equal to station, that she tow, not only a jump drive with this mass capability.
2. Station in question must have an engine to follow the tug through the jump point without jump gate, although you have no need to order this TG to release tractored ship (= to use their own engine for every ship in question) before every jump.
I was having some trouble with this a while back (but still at 7.1), and my conclusion was that the use of jump tugs is more hassle (and possibly bugs) than it's worth.
It's been a while, but this is what I remember:
- If you use a military jump drive instead of a commercial one, then it works correctly, but the tug is very expensive. If it's a bug that a commercial jump drive doesn't work, then the bug is that checking whether a commercial jump drive can jump a ship is checking for the presence of a commercial engine, not checking for the absence of a military engine.
- If you stick an engine on the station, then a commercial jump drive will work, but the station uses fuel. The fuel it uses is based on the distance it travels, not on the amount of time the engine was running: for example, if you have a ship that has a range of 1 billion km, a fuel capacity of 50,000, and a time at full power of 30 days, and you tug it 1 billion km in one day, then it will exhaust its fuel in that one day, since it travelled its full range of 1 billion km. As with the above, I don't know whether this is a bug or intentional.
- Of course, the other standard rules of a jump tender, which you have in (1), still apply: it has to be at least as large as the ship it's helping and have a sufficiently-large jump drive.
If you want to confirm these in some SM sandbox, then I'll advise you not to modify classes of ships which already exist. My first attempt to add an engine to a station was by unlocking the design and adding an engine to it, and it worked without fuel, but only for those ships which already existed. Any new stations I made with the new design promptly complained about a lack of fuel and refused to be tugged anywhere.
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What is even the point in checking ship types for jumping? Sorry but once a hole is punched in space that hole is a generic spatial distortion while it lasts and its not gonna care about whether a ship is military or commercial passing through. This is really a pointless limitation that adds nothing to gameplay, reason or fun. And actively detracts from all 3.
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Engine type, not ship type. Military ships powered by commercial engines can use commercial jump drives. However I have only used tugs with jump gates so there could be a bug where the lack of a commercial engine on an engineless ship is preventing commercial jump drive tug operation. Redundant: see formicae's post
As for why military engines can not be used with commercial:
a) Game balance.
B) [technobabel] ... however the high power of military engines can easily destabilize the loosely spun gate rifts generated by bulk civilian tech and can only transit gates generated with tight milspech precision or supported by gate structures... [/technobabel]
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Its not game balancing though. I would be interested in any explanation that could detail why its a balance and not just a random hindrance.
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It is game balancing when you consider civilian jump drives have a capacity 10x that of a miltary one. For the NCNs Sirocco class CA the research for the jump drive alone is nearly a year as it has to be capable of 18,000 tonnes (some 3000+ RP). If I could use a civillian jump engine that would be trivial as a 20,000 tonne civillian jump engine is cheap to research. I'd assume it is also much smaller than the equivelent miltary one as well.
Since civillian ships are 10x larger (basically because Steve wants this to be so)...then you have to have differentiation between civillian and miltary drives. A milary jump drive can transit any ship through a jump point regardless of engine type but limited in size. Civillian jump drives only work on civillian ships for whatever reason...but in game terms purely for balance.
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MarcAFK, I'm still don't understand how are you suggesting my station to jump without jump drive...
When a jump ship is sitting on a jump point, it works as a jump gate, letting vessel (that aren't too big) jump through the JP.
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When a jump ship is sitting on a jump point, it works as a jump gate, letting vessel (that aren't too big) jump through the JP.
Oh my...
I miss this feature completely from the beginning!
Thank you!