Aurora 4x

C# Aurora => General Discussion => Topic started by: liveware on May 14, 2020, 11:00:46 PM

Title: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 14, 2020, 11:00:46 PM
I'm interested in trying to set up some mine fields and I have some questions about how this might be achieved.

1. What is a good way to spread mines around? Waypoints?

2. I assume mines are basically engine-less missiles. Do mines need engines? If no, what is their effective range?

3. Do NPRs use squadron transits? If they do, it would seem a challenge to spread mines around a jump point and hit anything reliably. Is there a better way to do this than just randomly spreading mines around the jump point?

4. Are sensors required?
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: consiefe on May 15, 2020, 04:51:39 AM
1. Yes.

2. Mines need engines to work though very little in Aurora, because they have to go to the target which has just entered the range of mines active sensor range.

3. Again mines already need to make it to the enemy anyway. Just put enough range for actives and support it with engines.

4. Yea :)
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: Mark Yanning on May 15, 2020, 07:47:23 AM
Do you design mines in two stage missile? Also: how to deploy them? With command "Launch ready ordnance"? Do they remain visible on map?

Thanks
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: consiefe on May 15, 2020, 11:46:26 AM
Yes mines should be two staged. First should not have engines or warheads, just active sensors. Second stage should have engines, fuel, warhead, also active sensors. If you have one FC active with one launcher on one ship and command that ship to any point saying "launch ready ordinance" it will deploy one mine on that point.

Edit: And yes, they remain visible on map.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 15, 2020, 04:09:26 PM
Many thanks for all your responses, my empire may survive another few years.

As a follow up question regarding mine sensors, do passive sensors allow for adequate targeting or are active sensors a hard requirement? The two stage concept, with a sensor on the first stage and engine+warhead on the second seems interesting and is probably what I will attempt first.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: DFNewb on May 15, 2020, 04:11:34 PM
Yes mines should be two staged. First should not have engines or warheads, just active sensors. Second stage should have engines, fuel, warhead, also active sensors. If you have one FC active with one launcher on one ship and command that ship to any point saying "launch ready ordinance" it will deploy one mine on that point.

Edit: And yes, they remain visible on map.

I'm confused you just said:

2. Mines need engines to work though very little in Aurora, because they have to go to the target which has just entered the range of mines active sensor range.

So do you need engines on them or not?
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 15, 2020, 04:28:27 PM
Another follow up question:

For two stage missiles, what is the appropriate launcher size? For example, if I have a size 1 first stage coupled to a size 1 second stage do I launch it from a size 1 missile launcher? That seems intuitively correct to me but intuition is a fickle beast.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: froggiest1982 on May 15, 2020, 04:31:02 PM
Yes mines should be two staged. First should not have engines or warheads, just active sensors. Second stage should have engines, fuel, warhead, also active sensors. If you have one FC active with one launcher on one ship and command that ship to any point saying "launch ready ordinance" it will deploy one mine on that point.

Edit: And yes, they remain visible on map.

I'm confused you just said:

2. Mines need engines to work though very little in Aurora, because they have to go to the target which has just entered the range of mines active sensor range.

So do you need engines on them or not?

the first stage is a dummy to keep the missile stationary and then work as a mine. I think the whole mine concept is a bit misleading. This is an idle missile that once a  hostile ship is in range and gets detected by such missile it releases the first stage launching a missile to the target. In Aurora we call these mines.
Steve didnt even code mines, some people twisted the 2 stage concept and gave birth mines which are good first line of defense but they have many downsides in VB6 one of wich the hundreds of sensor detection phases. I can see now in C# this not being an issue anymore so I may use some myself.
The other is the potential also of wasting many of them or overkill because as soon as a ship is in range the "mines" will activate all together.

Personally I think best way is big mines capable of more damage layed in straight course from JPs in several distance from one another in groups so that you won't waste all your defense on a scout or geological vessel.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: DFNewb on May 15, 2020, 04:59:42 PM
Yes mines should be two staged. First should not have engines or warheads, just active sensors. Second stage should have engines, fuel, warhead, also active sensors. If you have one FC active with one launcher on one ship and command that ship to any point saying "launch ready ordinance" it will deploy one mine on that point.

Edit: And yes, they remain visible on map.

I'm confused you just said:

2. Mines need engines to work though very little in Aurora, because they have to go to the target which has just entered the range of mines active sensor range.

So do you need engines on them or not?

the first stage is a dummy to keep the missile stationary Nd then work as a mine. I think the whole mine concept as I bit misleading. This is an idle missile that once a  hostile ship is in range and gets detected by such missile it releases the first stage launching a missile to the target. In Aurora we call these mines.
Steve didnt even code mines, some people twisted the 2 stage concept and gave birth mines which are good first line of defense but they have many downsides in VB6 one of wich the hundreds of sensor detection phases. I can see now in C# this not being an issue anymore so I may use some myself.
The other is the potential also of wasting many of them or overkill as as soon as a ship is in range the "mines" will activate all together.

Personally I think best way is big mines capable of more damage layed in straight course from JPs in several distance from one another in groups so that you won't waste all your defense on a scout or geological vessel.

Or when the enemy ships are chasing you to get into missile range you drop them while running away
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: froggiest1982 on May 15, 2020, 09:28:34 PM
Yes mines should be two staged. First should not have engines or warheads, just active sensors. Second stage should have engines, fuel, warhead, also active sensors. If you have one FC active with one launcher on one ship and command that ship to any point saying "launch ready ordinance" it will deploy one mine on that point.

Edit: And yes, they remain visible on map.

I'm confused you just said:

2. Mines need engines to work though very little in Aurora, because they have to go to the target which has just entered the range of mines active sensor range.

So do you need engines on them or not?

the first stage is a dummy to keep the missile stationary Nd then work as a mine. I think the whole mine concept as I bit misleading. This is an idle missile that once a  hostile ship is in range and gets detected by such missile it releases the first stage launching a missile to the target. In Aurora we call these mines.
Steve didnt even code mines, some people twisted the 2 stage concept and gave birth mines which are good first line of defense but they have many downsides in VB6 one of wich the hundreds of sensor detection phases. I can see now in C# this not being an issue anymore so I may use some myself.
The other is the potential also of wasting many of them or overkill as as soon as a ship is in range the "mines" will activate all together.

Personally I think best way is big mines capable of more damage layed in straight course from JPs in several distance from one another in groups so that you won't waste all your defense on a scout or geological vessel.

Or when the enemy ships are chasing you to get into missile range you drop them while running away

Yes, true.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: consiefe on May 15, 2020, 10:00:07 PM
Yes mines should be two staged. First should not have engines or warheads, just active sensors. Second stage should have engines, fuel, warhead, also active sensors. If you have one FC active with one launcher on one ship and command that ship to any point saying "launch ready ordinance" it will deploy one mine on that point.

Edit: And yes, they remain visible on map.

I'm confused you just said:

2. Mines need engines to work though very little in Aurora, because they have to go to the target which has just entered the range of mines active sensor range.

So do you need engines on them or not?

For mines yes, you need engines and fuel on the second  stage. Aftet first one triggers with an active sensor contact with enemy you want to hit cluster missiles with individual actives, engines and fuel will go for the enemy.
Another follow up question:

For two stage missiles, what is the appropriate launcher size? For example, if I have a size 1 first stage coupled to a size 1 second stage do I launch it from a size 1 missile launcher? That seems intuitively correct to me but intuition is a fickle beast.

This is like a cluster bomb concept. You can try to fit as many second stage as you want to the first stage. First stage will be stationary so just actives matter. Aftet the first stage triggered the missiles inside of your first stage cut loose so they decide what to hit with actives. They go to enemy like any other missile you launched after this.

Edit: Launcher size is the total size of the missile. If you put 3x 1MSP Missile into the first stage, and if first stage is 1MSP too, total size would be 4 so launcher should be min size4 to deploy this.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: consiefe on May 16, 2020, 10:37:55 AM
Many thanks for all your responses, my empire may survive another few years.

As a follow up question regarding mine sensors, do passive sensors allow for adequate targeting or are active sensors a hard requirement? The two stage concept, with a sensor on the first stage and engine+warhead on the second seems interesting and is probably what I will attempt first.

Actives are hard requirement because without them mine can not target or re-target anything. You should also keep in mind that you need to have actives on the second stage too. First stage's active will pick up the enemy signal and break apart to let the second stage out and then second stage missiles will use actives to go to the enemy.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: SpikeTheHobbitMage on May 16, 2020, 11:43:17 AM
Many thanks for all your responses, my empire may survive another few years.

As a follow up question regarding mine sensors, do passive sensors allow for adequate targeting or are active sensors a hard requirement? The two stage concept, with a sensor on the first stage and engine+warhead on the second seems interesting and is probably what I will attempt first.

Actives are hard requirement because without them mine can not target or re-target anything. You should also keep in mind that you need to have actives on the second stage too. First stage's active will pick up the enemy signal and break apart to let the second stage out and then second stage missiles will use actives to go to the enemy.
Are actives required on every mine, or can an active sensor buoy support a group of mines?
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 16, 2020, 11:54:26 AM
Suppose I were to put a small engine on my first stage. What would happen if I then launched this mine-missile at a waypoint? Would the second stage detach at the waypoint or would it sit there idle with whatever fuel remains in the first stage?
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: consiefe on May 16, 2020, 12:02:32 PM
Many thanks for all your responses, my empire may survive another few years.

As a follow up question regarding mine sensors, do passive sensors allow for adequate targeting or are active sensors a hard requirement? The two stage concept, with a sensor on the first stage and engine+warhead on the second seems interesting and is probably what I will attempt first.

Actives are hard requirement because without them mine can not target or re-target anything. You should also keep in mind that you need to have actives on the second stage too. First stage's active will pick up the enemy signal and break apart to let the second stage out and then second stage missiles will use actives to go to the enemy.
Are actives required on every mine, or can an active sensor buoy support a group of mines?

Every mine needs it to pick a target. When you design one second stage with actives you will use that design as many as you want anyway.

Suppose I were to put a small engine on my first stage. What would happen if I then launched this mine-missile at a waypoint? Would the second stage detach at the waypoint or would it sit there idle with whatever fuel remains in the first stage?

If you set the separation to 0 I think it won't ever go to the second stage and if you set some kind of separation it separates before it hits the waypoint that you want it to sit on. So it seems to me engines in the first stage are not viable for mines as far as I know.

Edit: If you want to launch it from a distance, I think it would be a cluster bomb regular missile with second stage that pops close to the target.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: Pedroig on May 16, 2020, 12:15:40 PM
It would be a three-stage mine.

1st Stage launch to remote waypoint stage
2nd Stage is the mine/buoy sensor stage
3rd Stage is the missile stage
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: consiefe on May 16, 2020, 12:20:28 PM
It would be a three-stage mine.

1st Stage launch to remote waypoint stage
2nd Stage is the mine/buoy sensor stage
3rd Stage is the missile stage

Yeah, it's a good way to do it but it feels redundant to me as it would add dead weight to mine and ship and costs. But definately it's the right way.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: Pedroig on May 16, 2020, 12:23:48 PM
Dead weight is better than a dead ship...
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: consiefe on May 16, 2020, 12:28:49 PM
Dead weight is better than a dead ship...

Haha, of course but correct way of minelaying should be made without the heat of battle. One can have spesific minelayer ship with bunch of escorts and it lays mines where necessary. But it's just a playstyle which Aurora shines on with its freedom.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: Vastrat on May 16, 2020, 03:29:45 PM
Thanks for all the great info.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 16, 2020, 08:32:57 PM
It would be a three-stage mine.

1st Stage launch to remote waypoint stage
2nd Stage is the mine/buoy sensor stage
3rd Stage is the missile stage

I think I will develop two separate versions. A 'conventional' 2 stage mine and an alternate 3 stage mine. I can imagine use cases for both, particularly on a scout.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: Father Tim on May 17, 2020, 02:29:12 PM
It would be a three-stage mine.

1st Stage launch to remote waypoint stage
2nd Stage is the mine/buoy sensor stage
3rd Stage is the missile stage

I think I will develop two separate versions. A 'conventional' 2 stage mine and an alternate 3 stage mine. I can imagine use cases for both, particularly on a scout.


Good luck!

Let us know if you actually get the three-stage to work.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: froggiest1982 on May 17, 2020, 03:13:16 PM
It would be a three-stage mine.

1st Stage launch to remote waypoint stage
2nd Stage is the mine/buoy sensor stage
3rd Stage is the missile stage

How do you get 3 stages? I dont think it's possible
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: Pedroig on May 17, 2020, 03:37:29 PM
You can continually nest missiles in the second stage.  For a simple Remote launched mine:

3rd Stage:  5 size 5 ASM missiles with 9 WH, ASM, 20k km/s range 10m km
2nd Stage 1 Size 30 missile with 0 WH 5 MSP worth of sensors range 12m km for 5000 ton ship with 3rd stage as 2nd stage
3rd Stage 1 Size 35 missile with 50m km range not a whole lot of speed 5k km/s or so.

Adjust up or down as needed and can keep adding stages, as long as they get increasingly smaller in size...
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: SpikeTheHobbitMage on May 17, 2020, 03:51:06 PM
It would be a three-stage mine.

1st Stage launch to remote waypoint stage
2nd Stage is the mine/buoy sensor stage
3rd Stage is the missile stage

How do you get 3 stages? I dont think it's possible
The way to make one is to create a two stage unit and then use it as the 2nd stage in another design.  As Pedroig said, there is no limit to nesting them this way.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: froggiest1982 on May 17, 2020, 04:45:41 PM
It would be a three-stage mine.

1st Stage launch to remote waypoint stage
2nd Stage is the mine/buoy sensor stage
3rd Stage is the missile stage

How do you get 3 stages? I dont think it's possible
The way to make one is to create a two stage unit and then use it as the 2nd stage in another design.  As Pedroig said, there is no limit to nesting them this way.

That I figured, but would it work though? Has it been tested?
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: SpikeTheHobbitMage on May 17, 2020, 05:18:22 PM
It would be a three-stage mine.

1st Stage launch to remote waypoint stage
2nd Stage is the mine/buoy sensor stage
3rd Stage is the missile stage

How do you get 3 stages? I dont think it's possible
The way to make one is to create a two stage unit and then use it as the 2nd stage in another design.  As Pedroig said, there is no limit to nesting them this way.

That I figured, but would it work though? Has it been tested?
It worked that way in VB and C# follows the same logic so it should work.  I haven't tried it yet myself.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 17, 2020, 05:50:43 PM
3 stage mine seems to be the way to go based on my understanding of missile mechanics.

Attached is my rudimentary minefield (still needs another few layers) established around a hostile JP using the mine below:

Code: [Select]
3rd Stage: Vengeance II Warhead
Missile Size: 14.0104 MSP  (35.02600 Tons)     Warhead: 15    Radiation Damage: 15    Manoeuvre Rating: 20
Speed: 22,169 km/s     Fuel: 1     Flight Time: 0.7 seconds     Range: 15,518 km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.2   EM Sensitivity Modifier: 8
Resolution: 100    Maximum Range vs 5000 ton object (or larger): 3,312,464 km
ECM Modifier: 10%     ECCM Modifier: 10%
Cost Per Missile: 15.71     Development Cost: 1,571
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 443.4%   3k km/s 147.8%   5k km/s 88.7%   10k km/s 44.3%

Materials Required
Corbomite  1
Tritanium  3.75
Boronide  0.12
Uridium  0.2
Gallicite  10.64
Fuel:  1

##################
2nd Stage: Vengeance II Missile
Missile Size: 15.5396 MSP  (38.84900 Tons)     Warhead: 0    Radiation Damage: 0    Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 42,228 km/s     Fuel: 324     Flight Time: 3 minutes     Range: 6.41m km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.2   EM Sensitivity Modifier: 8
Resolution: 100    Maximum Range vs 5000 ton object (or larger): 3,312,464 km
Cost Per Missile: 16.72     Development Cost: 1,672
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 422.3%   3k km/s 140.8%   5k km/s 84.5%   10k km/s 42.2%

Materials Required
Boronide  0.12
Uridium  0.2
Gallicite  16.40
Fuel:  324


###############
1st Stage: Vengeance IIB Mine
Missile Size: 1 MSP  (2.5 Tons)     Warhead: 0    Radiation Damage: 0    Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 0 km/s     Fuel: 150     Flight Time: 1 seconds     Range: 0 km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.2   EM Sensitivity Modifier: 8
Resolution: 100    Maximum Range vs 5000 ton object (or larger): 3,312,464 km
Cost Per Missile: 0.32     Development Cost: 32
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 0%   3k km/s 0%   5k km/s 0%   10k km/s 0%

Materials Required
Boronide  0.12
Uridium  0.2
Fuel:  150

In total, the above amount to a size 30 missile, which when deployed at a waypoint, lay in wait for an enemy and then trigger the 2nd stage. The 2nd stage closes range to the target and then the 3rd stage delivers the munition.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: Ulzgoroth on May 17, 2020, 06:04:23 PM
. . . That seems wrong? Why is the third stage called a warhead but actually a tiny sensor buoy with no warhead or engine?
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 17, 2020, 06:07:46 PM
Because I made a mistake when originally posting and then corrected it via edit  :)
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: Ulzgoroth on May 17, 2020, 06:38:43 PM
Quote from: liveware link=topic=11417. msg133656#msg133656 date=1589756866
Because I made a mistake when originally posting and then corrected it via edit  :)
That is a change, yeah.  Still though, shouldn't the buoy stage be the second one, with the first being a delivery rocket and the last being the attack vehicle?
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 17, 2020, 06:53:39 PM
I changed my mind about how I wanted the mine to operate.

1. Deploy from ship.
2. Close to target.
3. Deliver payload.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: Draco_Argentum on May 17, 2020, 09:58:21 PM
I see mine designs are a buoy that releases missiles with their own active sensors.  Does anyone know if you can do a buoy that releases some sensorless missiles along with another buoy to guide them?
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: consiefe on May 17, 2020, 10:31:48 PM
I see mine designs are a buoy that releases missiles with their own active sensors.  Does anyone know if you can do a buoy that releases some sensorless missiles along with another buoy to guide them?

I think that was possible in VB6. But it needs proper testing before the answer for C#. Even if isn't possible now, it might be in the future versions.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 18, 2020, 10:52:22 AM
I heard this does not work in C# but I cannot confirm.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 18, 2020, 02:01:13 PM
Is it necessary to keep the ship which launches mines continuously deployed near the mines to keep the mines active? They seem to disappear for me after a while and I'm trying to determine why.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: consiefe on May 18, 2020, 02:09:33 PM
Can you please share each stage of your design?
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 18, 2020, 02:55:25 PM

Code: [Select]
3rd Stage: Vengeance II Warhead
Missile Size: 14.0104 MSP  (35.02600 Tons)     Warhead: 15    Radiation Damage: 15    Manoeuvre Rating: 20
Speed: 22,169 km/s     Fuel: 1     Flight Time: 0.7 seconds     Range: 15,518 km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.2   EM Sensitivity Modifier: 8
Resolution: 100    Maximum Range vs 5000 ton object (or larger): 3,312,464 km
ECM Modifier: 10%     ECCM Modifier: 10%
Cost Per Missile: 15.71     Development Cost: 1,571
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 443.4%   3k km/s 147.8%   5k km/s 88.7%   10k km/s 44.3%

Materials Required
Corbomite  1
Tritanium  3.75
Boronide  0.12
Uridium  0.2
Gallicite  10.64
Fuel:  1

##################
2nd Stage: Vengeance II Missile
Missile Size: 15.5396 MSP  (38.84900 Tons)     Warhead: 0    Radiation Damage: 0    Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 42,228 km/s     Fuel: 324     Flight Time: 3 minutes     Range: 6.41m km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.2   EM Sensitivity Modifier: 8
Resolution: 100    Maximum Range vs 5000 ton object (or larger): 3,312,464 km
Cost Per Missile: 16.72     Development Cost: 1,672
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 422.3%   3k km/s 140.8%   5k km/s 84.5%   10k km/s 42.2%

Materials Required
Boronide  0.12
Uridium  0.2
Gallicite  16.40
Fuel:  324


###############
1st Stage: Vengeance IIB Mine
Missile Size: 1 MSP  (2.5 Tons)     Warhead: 0    Radiation Damage: 0    Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 0 km/s     Fuel: 150     Flight Time: 1 seconds     Range: 0 km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.2   EM Sensitivity Modifier: 8
Resolution: 100    Maximum Range vs 5000 ton object (or larger): 3,312,464 km
Cost Per Missile: 0.32     Development Cost: 32
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 0%   3k km/s 0%   5k km/s 0%   10k km/s 0%

Materials Required
Boronide  0.12
Uridium  0.2
Fuel:  150

In total, the above amount to a size 30 missile, which when deployed at a waypoint, lay in wait for an enemy and then trigger the 2nd stage. The 2nd stage closes range to the target and then the 3rd stage delivers the munition.

Current design is as stated in quote above... I should probably pick a less politically volatile name for the thing now that I've had time to think about it.

Edit: The minelayer design is below, if that helps:

Code: [Select]
Menelaus class Minelayer      10,000 tons       246 Crew       1,142.2 BP       TCS 200    TH 240    EM 0
2400 km/s      Armour 1-41       Shields 0-0       HTK 65      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 18      PPV 30
Maint Life 3.61 Years     MSP 1,006    AFR 94%    IFR 1.3%    1YR 119    5YR 1,788    Max Repair 269.68 MSP
Magazine 790   
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 9 months    Morale Check Required   

Surrency & Weatherholtz Nuclear Pulse Engine  EP160.00 (3)    Power 480    Fuel Use 49.50%    Signature 80.0    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 1,251,000 Litres    Range 45.5 billion km (219 days at full power)

Washington Armaments Size 30 Missile Launcher (1)     Missile Size: 30    Rate of Fire 165
Washington Armaments Mine Fire Control FC9-R1 (50%) (1)     Range 9.6m km    Resolution 1
Veangeance IIB Anti-Ship Mine (26)    Speed: 0 km/s    End: 3.2m     Range: 2.7m km    WH: 0    Size: 30    TH: 0/0/0

Marrinan & Roma Active Search Sensor AS10-R1 (50%) (1)     GPS 60     Range 10.7m km    MCR 963.4k km    Resolution 1

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: consiefe on May 18, 2020, 03:05:07 PM
I think problem might lay in separation value for each stage. If your mine separates immaturely it expires and why first stage has fuel in it? If you share to finished version of the mine maybe we can find something.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 18, 2020, 03:17:16 PM
I think you're right about the separation distance thing. I added fuel to the 1st stage after my original version of this 3 stage design didn't seem to be working. My assumption was that the reactor for the active sensor required fuel. This may not be the case however because I recall from some other discussion that TN reactors don't use fuel, only engines use fuel. My current version seems to work for some non-zero amount of time before it disappears.

While trying to locate my existing design, I think I found a glitch in my 2nd stage design also that was making my overall design work incorrectly. Working on developing a new version now, will post results back once finalized.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 18, 2020, 04:28:43 PM
Alright, I've got a new 3 stage mine design finalized with my latest technology (a significant improvement over the previous designs):

Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 30.0000 MSP  (75.00000 Tons)     Warhead: 0    Radiation Damage: 0    Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 0 km/s     Fuel: 925     1st Stage Flight Time: 1 seconds    1st Stage Range: 0k km
2nd Stage Flight Time: 5 minutes    2nd Stage Range: 3.99m km
3rd Stage Flight Time: 1 seconds    3rd Stage Range: 20k km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.2   EM Sensitivity Modifier: 8
Resolution: 100    Maximum Range vs 5000 ton object (or larger): 3,312,464 km
Cost Per Missile: 34.52     Development Cost: 3,452
Second Stage: Archimedes IIC Anti-Ship Missile x1
Second Stage Separation Range: 0 km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 0%   3k km/s 0%   5k km/s 0%   10k km/s 0%

Materials Required
Corbomite  1
Tritanium  5
Boronide  0.36
Uridium  0.6
Gallicite  27.56
Fuel:  925

I believe this will work as I intend, which can be summarized as:

1. Deploy mine from mine layer at waypoint at point blank range.
2. 1st stage does nothing until a target is detected.
3. 2nd stage activates when target appears in range and closes to PD range.
4. 3rd stage activates and closes final distance to target.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: consiefe on May 18, 2020, 04:38:13 PM
At this shape, an enemy ship should come right on top of it to make it separate AFAIK. I think you should set the separation to the active sensor range. Otherwise it seems good.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 18, 2020, 04:50:43 PM
I actually considered that and built a second variant, the Archimedes IID Anti-Ship Mine which has separation distance equal to the sensor range.

I'm still not sure either variant works. I deployed one of each at a jump point mine field and can't see any active senor ring. I would expect to see a sensor ring since each missile stage has an active sensor.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: consiefe on May 18, 2020, 04:53:35 PM
It's beyond me. There was a bug related to buoy sensors but my passive surveillance buoys work fine right now. I don't if actives are affected. Please share the outcome.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 18, 2020, 05:02:59 PM
Just combat tested against my local hostile NPR. Still no sensor rings visible and the mines do not appear to engage hostile targets. I think fuel may be required on the first stage to power the reactor. I will attempt a redesign.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 18, 2020, 05:20:57 PM
Code: [Select]
Palantir Sensor Buoy
Missile Size: 2.000 MSP  (5.0000 Tons)     Warhead: 0    Radiation Damage: 0    Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 0 km/s     Fuel: 1,055     Flight Time: 1 seconds     Range: 0 km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.2   EM Sensitivity Modifier: 8
Resolution: 100    Maximum Range vs 5000 ton object (or larger): 3,312,464 km
Thermal Sensor Strength: 0.1    Detect Sig Strength 1000:  2,500,000 km
EM Sensor Strength: 0.1    Detect Sig Strength 1000:  2,500,000 km
Geo Sensor Strength: 0.01     Geo Points Per Day: 0.24
ECM Modifier: 10%     
Cost Per Missile: 1.156     Development Cost: 116
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 0%   3k km/s 0%   5k km/s 0%   10k km/s 0%

Materials Required
Corbomite  0.5
Boronide  0.246
Uridium  0.41
Fuel:  1055

This design works as expected. When deployed at a waypoint, it sits there and does nothing except provide sensor coverage.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: consiefe on May 18, 2020, 05:27:08 PM
It's very interesting. I didn't come across any information about active sensors need fuel. Why actual mines are not dedecting though?
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 18, 2020, 05:57:24 PM
I'm clueless.

I've deployed perhaps 100 mines of the various designs described in this thread. None of them are visible in my current campaign.

At various times I have been able to see evidence of some of the Vengeance IIB design mines posted to this thread, however they are gone now. Perhaps they ran out of fuel? I'm not sure and continue to test my designs.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: DFNewb on May 18, 2020, 07:47:15 PM
Have you tried using really weak and slow size 0.01 engines or something?
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: froggiest1982 on May 18, 2020, 09:16:23 PM
It's very interesting. I didn't come across any information about active sensors need fuel. Why actual mines are not dedecting though?

Active sensors don't need fuel. For the specific part of the mine, you need to flag no engine in missile design so that you would have constructed a buoy. On top of the buoy as second or third stage your will have you actual missile (mine)

If I read properly what is happening is this:

1st stage buoy (no engine no fuel only sensor)
2nd stage engine and fuel to reach the target plus active to get direction (here the tricky part, the missile will engage at a certain range only which you will set in the separation range box as the ships are passing through you don't want too close or too far)
3rd stage engine fuel active and warhead to obliterate (again with separation range to keep in mind)

Looks like the above works fine however, any different designed I tried doesn't work. Example:

1st stage long-range missile to waypoint for deployment
2nd stage buoy
3rd stage missile

Looks like the above is recognized as cheating design and intentionally not working. So you will be able to launch the missile, reach the waypoint (out of your MFC) and use the sensor. Once a target is in range the missile will fire but will remain static on the waypoint either it's still there or it has been removed from the tactical map. I have figured that as it recognizes the launch of a missile which will have to be then operated by an MFC the missile simply does not know where to go.  To get this design to work you need the buoy to be launched as intended then you will have to use the buoy sensor to fire at target which has to be still under your MFC. Pointless pretty much, at that stage better have a ship or a fleet all equipped properly.

My guess is that the code recognized a "mine" only under the "launch ready ordnance" command but not if you fire the missile. I know it's weird but I spent a day to test this for another post where somebody wanted  to use a very long-range missile.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: consiefe on May 18, 2020, 09:41:21 PM
Then my thought on two stage would be more reliable with mines seems true.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 18, 2020, 09:50:53 PM
Looks like the above is recognized as cheating design and intentionally not working. So you will be able to launch the missile, reach the waypoint (out of your MFC) and use the sensor. Once a target is in range the missile will fire but will remain static on the waypoint either it's still there or it has been removed from the tactical map. I have figured that as it recognizes the launch of a missile which will have to be then operated by an MFC the missile simply does not know where to go.  To get this design to work you need the buoy to be launched as intended then you will have to use the buoy sensor to fire at target which has to be still under your MFC. Pointless pretty much, at that stage better have a ship or a fleet all equipped properly.

My guess is that the code recognized a "mine" only under the "launch ready ordnance" command but not if you fire the missile. I know it's weird but I spent a day to test this for another post where somebody wanted  to use a very long-range missile.

This I think is what is happening. It is impossible for a 'mine' to function correctly unless a missile fire control is in range. Since it is impossible to build a MFC into a missile, it is impossible for a true 'stand-alone' mine to function as expected. So mines appear to require a dedicated mine tender which maintains an active MFC presence.

IMO it should be possible to design 'trap' missiles or mines, so this is arguably a bug? I would be happy to have someone correct me.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: Conscript Gary on May 19, 2020, 12:32:46 AM
As far as I can tell independent targeting from missiles (including buoys, which is what a mine is) with their own sensors is currently bugged. Frustratingly I won't have access to my Aurora-capable device for a short while to properly report it.

Missile sensors/reactors do not require fuel.
The expected behavior is that a buoy, with no engines, will persist in space indefinitely. When a neutral or hostile contact is detected by any of its onboard sensors within the separation range of its subsequent stage, it should launch said stage. That stage would then use its own sensors to acquire a target, and attack it.

Currently something is frakky in the 'picking a target based on its own sensor detection' code, and possibly also in the logic of what missiles should be culled after a while and which should be allowed to linger in space.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 19, 2020, 12:03:02 PM
So it does appear that fuel-less sensor buoys work correctly. Attached is a screenshot of two different sensor buoy designs I tested. The original Palantir design has fuel, and the Palantir II does not. Both seem to work.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 19, 2020, 12:17:05 PM
After attempting to adapt my successful sensor buoy as a first stage for a mine, I can confirm that the mine concept still does not work. With or without fuel.

Unfortunate. I guess I will need to go on the offensive.

FWIW, here is the final mine design I attempted:

Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 30.00 MSP  (75.000 Tons)     Warhead: 0    Radiation Damage: 0    Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 0 km/s     Fuel: 925     1st Stage Flight Time: 1 seconds    1st Stage Range: 0k km
2nd Stage Flight Time: 5 minutes    2nd Stage Range: 3.99m km
3rd Stage Flight Time: 1 seconds    3rd Stage Range: 20k km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.2   EM Sensitivity Modifier: 8
Resolution: 100    Maximum Range vs 5000 ton object (or larger): 3,312,464 km
Cost Per Missile: 34.52     Development Cost: 3,452
Second Stage: Archimedes IIC Anti-Ship Missile x1
Second Stage Separation Range: 3,300,000 km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 0%   3k km/s 0%   5k km/s 0%   10k km/s 0%

Materials Required
Corbomite  1
Tritanium  5
Boronide  0.36
Uridium  0.6
Gallicite  27.56
Fuel:  925
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: consiefe on May 19, 2020, 12:18:34 PM
After attempting to adapt my successful sensor buoy as a first stage for a mine, I can confirm that the mine concept still does not work. With or without fuel.

Unfortunate. I guess I will need to go on the offensive.

Did you try 2 stage simple design as well?
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 19, 2020, 12:53:19 PM
Not as a mine...

When I started this adventure my engine tech was terrible so I required at least a 2 stage missile to have any hope of hitting a target. So a mine would have needed to be 3 stages minimum.

Now my engine tech is much better, but my need for mines has decreased, so I will probably now just build missiles instead. The 2 stage missile I have been using as the basis for my mine design is somewhat useful on its own, but still needs a lot more R&D to really shine.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 21, 2020, 03:56:55 PM
So I have now combat tested a 2 stage missile that also does not appear to work. 1st stage (the booster stage) works as intended and closes towards the target, but after the 2nd stage separates, it disappears. No event log entry or anything, just vanishes.

I'm sticking to single stage designs for a while.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: Father Tim on May 22, 2020, 06:48:22 PM
So I have now combat tested a 2 stage missile that also does not appear to work. 1st stage (the booster stage) works as intended and closes towards the target, but after the 2nd stage separates, it disappears. No event log entry or anything, just vanishes.

I'm sticking to single stage designs for a while.

Did your second stage have onboard sensors?

A missile that runs out of fuel is deleted.  That means it is a mistake to put engines (or fuel) on your 'buoy' or mine (stage), as that will only shorten its life.

A missile that entirely loses sensor lock is deleted.  If a later stage fails to properly inherit control from the firing ship, the missile poofs.  If the 'mine' stage loses lock (or range) to the target then a warhead without sensors has also lost its lock, and poofs.

The Aurora missile system wasn't designed with mines in mind; some clever folk figured out a way to make 'mines' with it and ever since we've been dealing with the fallout.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: froggiest1982 on May 22, 2020, 07:34:02 PM
So I have now combat tested a 2 stage missile that also does not appear to work. 1st stage (the booster stage) works as intended and closes towards the target, but after the 2nd stage separates, it disappears. No event log entry or anything, just vanishes.

I'm sticking to single stage designs for a while.

Did your second stage have onboard sensors?

A missile that runs out of fuel is deleted.  That means it is a mistake to put engines (or fuel) on your 'buoy' or mine (stage), as that will only shorten its life.

A missile that entirely loses sensor lock is deleted.  If a later stage fails to properly inherit control from the firing ship, the missile poofs.  If the 'mine' stage loses lock (or range) to the target then a warhead without sensors has also lost its lock, and poofs.

The Aurora missile system wasn't designed with mines in mind; some clever folk figured out a way to make 'mines' with it and ever since we've been dealing with the fallout.

Also there is a bug where any 2nd or 3rd or 4th stage won't work even if with active sensors unless the missile is constantly under the MFC range.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on May 22, 2020, 07:40:50 PM
So I have now combat tested a 2 stage missile that also does not appear to work. 1st stage (the booster stage) works as intended and closes towards the target, but after the 2nd stage separates, it disappears. No event log entry or anything, just vanishes.

I'm sticking to single stage designs for a while.

Did your second stage have onboard sensors?

A missile that runs out of fuel is deleted.  That means it is a mistake to put engines (or fuel) on your 'buoy' or mine (stage), as that will only shorten its life.

A missile that entirely loses sensor lock is deleted.  If a later stage fails to properly inherit control from the firing ship, the missile poofs.  If the 'mine' stage loses lock (or range) to the target then a warhead without sensors has also lost its lock, and poofs.

The Aurora missile system wasn't designed with mines in mind; some clever folk figured out a way to make 'mines' with it and ever since we've been dealing with the fallout.

1. All of my missile/mine stages have active sensors.

2. Fueled sensor buoys, for me, appear to have infinite life. I have yet to observe one disappear.

3. Based on my observations, my missile volley (2 stage missiles, not 3 stage mine) should never have lost sensor lock on the target. I had the target in range of several sensor platforms as well as the launch platform's MFC. At separation range, the missiles were within active sensor range of the 1st stage and they should have been within range of 2nd stage active sensors (1st and 2nd stage have same sensor radius). However I never observed any 2nd stage at all so I have no idea what happened... I was using 5 second increments with 5 second sub-pulses.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: Caplin on May 23, 2020, 10:10:30 AM
Couldyou post your designs?
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: consiefe on May 23, 2020, 10:23:26 AM
Well, that's unsettling. Two stage missiles are simple enough to work without complications. I just designed a two stage which separates at 12m and in total has 100m range. I should get away without an active on the 2nd stage because target inheritance(?). I didn't test my missiles yet, I'll write back when I do.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: Father Tim on June 01, 2020, 10:46:01 AM
2. Fueled sensor buoys, for me, appear to have infinite life. I have yet to observe one disappear.


I understand from your phrasing that the 'sensor buoys' have fuel but no engine?  In which case it's perfectly understandable that they never run out, as they're not using fuel.  (And that fuel is a waste of mass.)

In case you meant they do have engines, then if fired at a waypoint within range, they would move to that waypoint and stop. . . and thus stop burning fuel and again it's perfectly understandable that they never run out.  I consider this a two-stage missile and not the sort of buoy I was talking about.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: SpikeTheHobbitMage on June 01, 2020, 11:18:09 AM
2. Fueled sensor buoys, for me, appear to have infinite life. I have yet to observe one disappear.


I understand from your phrasing that the 'sensor buoys' have fuel but no engine?  In which case it's perfectly understandable that they never run out, as they're not using fuel.  (And that fuel is a waste of mass.)

In case you meant they do have engines, then if fired at a waypoint within range, they would move to that waypoint and stop. . . and thus stop burning fuel and again it's perfectly understandable that they never run out.  I consider this a two-stage missile and not the sort of buoy I was talking about.
It must be the first case.  In the second case, a fuelled two stage missile that is fired at a waypoint should immediately release the second stage when it arrives.  A single stage in that situation should self-destruct if it can't find a target.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: Micco40 on June 04, 2020, 05:46:47 PM
Quote from: liveware link=topic=11417. msg133822#msg133822 date=1589840457

This design works as expected.  When deployed at a waypoint, it sits there and does nothing except provide sensor coverage.

I've been messing around with mines and buoys too, but for some reason I cannot get figure out how to show the passive detection ranges.   They sit there but appear to do nothing.   Is there a way to turn the passive detection ranges on?
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: SpikeTheHobbitMage on June 04, 2020, 06:08:54 PM
Quote from: liveware link=topic=11417. msg133822#msg133822 date=1589840457

This design works as expected.  When deployed at a waypoint, it sits there and does nothing except provide sensor coverage.

I've been messing around with mines and buoys too, but for some reason I cannot get figure out how to show the passive detection ranges.   They sit there but appear to do nothing.   Is there a way to turn the passive detection ranges on?
Tactical window, Display tab, there are check-boxes for Passive vs Signature 10 through 10,000.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: Micco40 on June 04, 2020, 06:45:47 PM
Quote from: SpikeTheHobbitMage link=topic=11417. msg136127#msg136127 date=1591312134

Tactical window, Display tab, there are check-boxes for Passive vs Signature 10 through 10,000.

Spike, thank you very much.   I really hadn't noticed that before.   

Is there a way to show the radius visually on the tactical window, similar to how we see active sensors?
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: SpikeTheHobbitMage on June 04, 2020, 06:53:38 PM
Quote from: SpikeTheHobbitMage link=topic=11417. msg136127#msg136127 date=1591312134

Tactical window, Display tab, there are check-boxes for Passive vs Signature 10 through 10,000.

Spike, thank you very much.   I really hadn't noticed that before.   

Is there a way to show the radius visually on the tactical window, similar to how we see active sensors?
That is what those check-boxes do.  If you don't see the circles then you are either zoomed out too far or in too close.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: Micco40 on June 04, 2020, 08:01:54 PM
Quote from: SpikeTheHobbitMage link=topic=11417. msg136139#msg136139 date=1591314818

That is what those check-boxes do.   If you don't see the circles then you are either zoomed out too far or in too close.

Again, thank you so much.   I guess i didn't realize how small the radius was for the buoy i had designed.   Back to the drawing board!
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: vorpal+5 on June 04, 2020, 10:37:45 PM
So in summary, is everything working as expected or it is not? Steve said there was no game breaking bug in 1.11. I guess even if multi-stages missiles and mines don't work, that's not game breaking for him, but only major (or even perhaps only minor), so it can wait?
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: liveware on June 05, 2020, 12:22:00 AM
I abandoned my v195 campaign which prompted my original post. I have not yet tested sensor buoys/mines in my v1100 campaign. I will post back with testing results.
Title: Re: Mines and Minefields
Post by: SpikeTheHobbitMage on June 05, 2020, 05:32:52 PM
So in summary, is everything working as expected or it is not? Steve said there was no game breaking bug in 1.11. I guess even if multi-stages missiles and mines don't work, that's not game breaking for him, but only major (or even perhaps only minor), so it can wait?
'Game breaking' at this point seems to mean 'actually unplayable' rather than just missing features.  So database corruption or being unable to issue fleet commands would be game breaking, but it is still possible to play without mines.  Aurora C# is effectively in early beta right now so I wouldn't worry to much about it.