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Messages - Þórgrímr

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Coco's Chapter 12 Review:

I may have missed something here, but the Roman's mention something being based on a 'Papilio'. What is that?

I really think that this scene with the Roman tanks taking on the Numerians is one of the best written in the whole book!  Its exciting, fun, doesn't ever get boring or tedious, seriously, I love it!  :)

The part at the beginning with the Numerian infantry is alight, but the best part is by far where the Roman's have to go up against the Numie tanks themselves.

I think the fact that the Romans have a computer system capable of automatically managing their tanks is another very nice example of how the Numies are behind the human nations in terms of military thinking.  They just don't have the same organisation and communication in their army that the Terrans and Romans do.

Do the Numerian Sharolei tanks have a turret?  Seems to me like they might have a gun in the hull instead?  Also, aside from the huge Assault tanks, do the numerians opperate any different types of tank then the Sharolei?

How long have the Terrans and the Romans been in space for?  The Terrans I would say a few hundred years at a maximum, but what about the Romans?  I suspect they've been there for hundreds more?  Or even thousands?

Are the Numerians the only species in the Commonwealth?  Or do they have any subject species or similar?  I heard mention that there were bandits in the commonwealth, and the Numerians themselves didn't seem to be the kind that would turn to banditry?

The ambush scene is also very fun, particularly with Cav and her rifle, and the cheesy Frenchman (Gaul) that turns up in that Roman scout vehicle!

Well, that's it!  The last chapter of the book!  I've already told you quite a bit about what I thought about the merits of the book, but given that my review process has now come to and end I don't think there's any harm in a quick recap!  The best thing about this book is that it was easy to read, never difficult to follow the plot or understand what is going on.  Not only that, but it wasn't boring at any point, I found that I thoroughly enjoyed it, its a nice story with lots of cool action.  No frills or silly asides from what is really important!  This is the kinda book you'd like to take on holiday with you.

Thorgrimm Wrote:

1)  Papilio is Latin for Tent. In that era they had 10 Legionnaires to a tent. So I just named their APC Papilio as a reference to that fact.  :)

2)  They say write what you know, and I think I happen to know a bit about Armored Warfare. At least I would like to think so!  ;D

3)  Modern Industrial Scale Warfare forces a Nation to give up any ideas about individual combat, in favor for teamwork and mass combat. A nation will never be able to organize an effective large-scale military with a Warrior Mindset. Unfortunately for the Numies they are mired in the mindset of the individual warrior as the highest form of warfare.

4) The Numie Sharolei is more like an Assault Gun than a real tank in that their main gun is mounted in the hull, and not a turret. They are inspired by the German Sturmgeshutz IV of WW2 fame.

4a)  Haegan will have to answer if the Numies use any other types of armor. I am sure they do, but I cannot answer for their creator.

5) Haegan will have to answer this one.

5a) The Numies consider the Terran Commerce Raiders as bandits, that may be what you may have confused for normal bandits.

6) Cav is based off of a friend of mine who is a Marine Scout/Sniper, only he is a guy.  ;D

7}  That is some real high praise my friend! I thank you for it!

What is the next book you would like to review?

Coco Wrote:

I think I'll go with the book about the first contact between the Terrans and Romans?

Haegan Wrote:

Okay, those 2 questions are both easy and hard.

Numerians are by far the dominate species inside of the Commonwealth. The other two are the Oangyl ( a water species that has migrated to slightly more then 30 planets) and the Ghentilie(picture four foot high Lemurs). Both species are considered full citizens.

While the Oangyl are a full member of the  Commonwealth, the fact that they weigh in at 6 to 8 tons each makes it difficult for them to interact directly with the land folk. They tend to inhabit salt water with a salinity similar to Earths oceans, but can survive in fresh water with few issues(other then the water tastin funny). I tend to see them as miniature hump back whales with odd arms for forward fins. the fins have an ending that has three manipulators similar to fingers with only 2 joints instead of the three that humans have.

The Ghentilie tend to spend much of their time in space and form a fare portion of the space born merchant traffic the Commonwealth have. It is speculated that they have been genetically altered at some point in the far past as the body seems to have been altered to perform best in low or zero G gravity. They do not suffer from the effects of long term low or zero G gravity like humans and Numerians do.

In regards to the other question about Numerian armor. Terrans see armor as tanks, etc. The Commonwealth includes power armor and walking mechs into the definition as well.

Most of the available armors will fill the positions that the Terrans have rather nicely at least in the unit formations that employ them.

It is to be noted that the current designs have not been fundamentally changed in tens of thousands of years. There simply has been no need. This all having been said, I can say that most armor that is used is optimized for small unit formations and the combats that result.

Thorgrimm Wrote:

A Test of Wills it is!

@ Haegan, good species to do full write ups about!

Coco's Chapter 11 Review:

Chapter 11

Well, I rather liked the scene at the beginning, what with the jets flying straight overhead like that!  Really shows a whole, 'oh hell' moment for the Numies.  This is obviously the main turning point of the book, some of the numerians think they've reached the crescendo, finally pushed the Terrans outta the mountains! What a nasty surprise in store for 'em!

I also like the scene with the Marines, particularly Alex, getting in close with the Numerians, and giving them a good kicking!  I think that this scene is far more then a simple action scene, rather it highlights the fact that while the Numerians may know individually more about the theory of war, they don't know nearly so much as the Terrans about the practicalities, I rather doubt most of these Numerians have ever actually fought in a real war?

Speaking of, I was wondering if the Numerians have recently fought a big war?  From what I gathered from the book its been tens of thousands of years since their last full scale conflict?  In comparison many terran officers and NCOs fought in the Denevan wars?  It really compounds the idea that the Numerians aren't doing what they should in this war?

I just saw a mention of a 'Numerian Marksman'  Do the Numerians make use of snipers?  I was under the impression that Snipers were something they hadn't seen until fighting the terrans?  (I think there is an intermediary role between the sniper and ordinary rifleman?  But my military knowledge is mostly limited to military history, I'm afraid.)

I'm sure this has been answered before, but are the Romans more or less advanced than the Terrans?  Also, how does their military  compare to that of the Terrans?  Obviously they are in possession of Tanks, but I also think I read that their army was only very recently 'standardised'?

Heh, I still very mauch enjoy the reference to the Sherman firefly made with those Roman Tanks, I was also wondering, do the Whitman's outfitted with the Gauss cannons make an appearance on the series?  And also, are they using the same Roman-built gauss gun?

Oh, I do have a question that I may have already touched on, I asked if the Terrans had any potential allies, you mentioned some, but I was wondering if any asside from the Romans do actually come to help the Terrans during this war?

Well, asside from a mention that what follows is one of the best action scenes in the book, that's all!  Also, I'm having trouble with chapter 12, same as last time I had these problems, I'll need to get you to send me the bock again!

Thorgrimm wrote:

1)  Yep, nasty indeed!

2) Yep, they are the Universe's best warriors, but I would have to say they are also the Universe's worst soldiers. They know everything about individual combat, and nothing about fighting as a part of a team.

3)  IIRC Haegan and I figured it had been 25K Years since their last dust-up with the Draugir. Yep most of the Terran officers and Senior NCOs fought in the Denevan War 25 years ago. They are doing what they have been taught, but, again, in a war like this it is the wrong thing to learn!

4)  No, IIRC the mention was that all Numerians are marksmen, as a whole they are some of the best shots. They do not use Snipers, per say. Snipers are dishonorable to them. Yes, there is what is called a Squad Designated Marksmen. That middle ground between a full sniper and just an ordinary soldier.

5) Yes, they are more advanced than the Terrans. They have pretty much the same equipment as the Terrans, just a whole lot more advanced. The Roman method of fighting is still mired in the Legion. Unfortunately for them, as seen in the Denevan war, the Faction Politics drives their armed forces, and this is just as bad as the Numie Warrior Mindset.

6) Lol, yep, the Brits were smart putting the 17 pdr AT gun on the Sherman, so the Glowfly is my homage to that. Good catch!!! Yes, they appear later, and yep same cannon. Terran cannon makers are still struggling to reduce the size of our Gauss Cannons.

7) The Hallies want to, but the Terran President does not want them to. He knows the Numies would wipe them out as well, for helping the Terrans.

Good review bud and thanks!

Hop on to Skype and I will send it to you again.

Haegan wrote:

The Numerians would do well against the Terran's in small units versus small units. Frankly, they have forgotten the basics of mass scale (large army versus large army) warfare. They do much better in space, but still do not have the Terran's sophistication in that either.

Of course they are not as well armed as the units that go against the Draugir, but even those units have the same mentality and would likely take even larger losses at first due to even more extreme over confidence.

Its the extreme pasting that the Numerian ground units are taking that forces a re-evaluation of the Numerian training and combat practices for ground units. Aerobhin even gets a chance to say "I told you so" later on. I do not remember if Ken and I had decided to add that scene or not , but it does not represent of the end of the problems the Numerians have. The Commonwealth is not small and has a surprising number of factions that choose to ignore the evidence in front of them. They will continue to take horrific losses on the ground while the units Aerobhin leads actually manage to do much better.

Cheers, Thor

I know it has been a while since I posted to this thread, but a lot of things have happened since the last time I had, and not all of them were good.  :P

However, I can now finish this review by Coco.  ;D

Chapter 10

Well... a few days and a deleted profile latter I'm back!  God, I REALLY hate malware.

I like that the Numerians are really bothered by the heat while for the Human's are less affected, highlights that the Numies aren't better in every way that they still have their weaknesses and such.  Also, it shows that beneath their tech and their genetically enhanced physiques the Numies have just lost something that the humans have.

Speaking of tech, I was wondering how much of their own tech the Numerians make?  It is mentioned that the Numies haven't changed their equipment in thousands of years, my guess is that the tech they have was given to them, and the Elohim have engineered them in such a way that they wont try to advance themselves any more?

Now, I had a question in the review that I lost.  It was about a paragraph long and now I can't remember what it was about, but I remember commenting that I liked the way Gaiven was portrayed in the early parts of the chapter, particularly how he's a good example of the non-Aero'bei Numies who are simultaneously not the bad guys and also people who you have absolutely no sympathy for when they are disembowelled by a land mine.

I don't know if this is a real term or one you made for the book, but what does Twin-linked mean?  As in the Numie tanks having a 'Twin-linked Fusion Gun'?

I also like Gaiven's realisation about the Terrans, that he can't beat them if any of them are still alive.  I like how he realises that they wont do what the Numerians expect them to do and just give in.

Is Jenny still a serving Colonel?  Or are people just referring to her as that out of courtesy?

Something I wanted to ask.  How are vehicles like the LeClerc and the Whitman powered?  I'm assuming not Petrol, Diesel or LPG, right?  At the same time I think a reactor in the middle of a tank getting shot at might be a little unusual?

I also like the thing where Jenny does the coms-tapping to force the numies to kill each other.  I think its a wonderful brain over brawn moment!

LeMay is fantastic!  He's like Cav, in between wars you keep em locked up like Hannibal Lecter with the message 'Open in case of Alien invasion' plastered across their cells.

May I ask what  Tor’Rai is?  Or must I wait for the story to unfold?

Well, asside for the honourable mention for the Terran's hoax and the Numies falling for it I haven't got anything else to add!

Thorgrimm Wrote:

1) In all of my writings no matter how tough somebody, or something is, they all have their weaknesses. No such thing as the perfect being or technology. So the Numies have theirs.  ;D

2) Most of their tech has been given to them by their 'Gods', but on occasion in the past they have invented something new. Just not in the last 50K years.  :o

3) Twin-Linked is a real term. Explained in Chat.  :)

4) It is finally beginning to dawn on him that he can never beat the Terrans, only kill them, and that is not the same.

5) Jenny is on what is called TAD, Temporary Assigned Duty, to the TIA. So yes, she is still a serving Colonel.

6) All Terran vehicles are run on Hydrogen. When it 'combusts', when combined with oxygen, its exhaust is water vapor.

7)  Yep, a lil' trick that SOCOM teaches its troops. Not used very much, as Jenny explains why, but if you can catch an enemy napping...  ::)

8 ) Lol, yep, Joltin' Joe is based on an Officer I knew in the USMC.

9) Tor'Rai is the suspected Homeworld of the Nephilim.

Good review bud! Thanks very much!

Cheers, Thor

Haegan Wrote:

The Numerians have been socially conditioned to not be interested in certain forms of research. Though they are very good at adapting to new circumstances and borrowing other races tech when it seems to be useful. In general though, they have reached a plateau of well developed technology where they really don't need to continue to advance. Both the Commonwealth and the Draugir are both quick to adapt new ideas, that are useful in beating the other side up, of course.

The Elohim and the Nephilim have drawn lines deliberately to limit the real damage the 2 races can do. After all, both have the technical ability to wipe life out through biological war and even nano warfare and do so in a way that the less technically evolved races could not begin to imagine. Never mind fight. Not wanting an 'accident' to happen again, both sides have been forbidden from waging those forms of warefare on each other. The limitation is only on the major combatants. Not the small fry like the Romans or UST...

Carter in one of the unreleased scenes in T-N, mentions how limited in scope the Commonwealth has been waging its warfare. Even the UST had well developed weapons in its arsenals that would have been more destructive then many of the weapons used on the Terrans so far.He openly wonders what horrors have been kept waiting in the wings, and why they have not been unleashed.

In another scene from AW, Sarochia tells John Carter just what would have happened had the Romans actually entered the war. "Your worlds would have been turned into asteroid belts, John. The war was already consuming resources at an unexpected rate. Once the Romans joined, the Atheri would not have been far behind."

As capable as the Draugir and the Numerians are, it is important to remember that their masters are sufficiently advanced as to make them seem like children playing with fire crackers. Either side has the ability to wipe the milky way of biological lifeforms with relatively little effort. Whether they do not do it because they dont want to be alone or because they like to boss others around can be debated all night long. But the fact that they can do so is well placed in the storyline canon.

Coco's Chapter Nine Review:

Chapter 9

Well, once again we get a little chuckle from Jenny and Isuro, I feel so sorry for that guy, he so obviously doesn't want to be on that shuttle with that crazy woman, but there's no escape for him!

Jenny really strikes me into the type of person that considers a shuttle crash to be am 'Energetic landing''.  She really is cool, she gives the book its dose of comic relief.

I will admit, I'm really curious to see the story of the four spec ops types there on the shuttle with them, I really rather doubt that the Numies are gonna like coming into contact with invisible soldiers, these were dangerous though, very close to f***ing ninjas.

I do wonder, does Jenny ever get a chance to go all Dirty Harry with that revolver of hers?  I'm assuming she hasn't just got a 20th century gun as her side arm?  She's got some fancy upgrades or modern ammo, right?

Also, Cavendish really is the kind of person that you want to keep locked up like Hannible Lecter, she's crazy and obviously enjoys her job a little too much...  Awesome character.

The plasma rifles the terrans use, these are basically pray and spray things, right?

I love the scene with the ambush in the canyon, these Whitman tanks are cool, can I ask, if the standard tanks' guns handle the numies just fine, why the need to install the gauss cannon in some tanks?

Is it wrong that I really wanna know what happens to the Numie tank commander from the Ambush?  I'm honestly curious, he doesn't seem to be the same rabidly-hating kind, he's almost somebody you can feel sympathetic to.

Hmmh, Gaiven is Arrogant, he's the kinda guy that you really wanna dislike, but somehow you know he's going to turn out ok in the end,

Also, I got a good chuckle at the Batman-desception!

Haegan Wrote:
Jenny is one of my favorite characters as well. You have not seen much of Paul Dugan, but I liked him as well in the previous books in the Deneven war.

IIRC, the tank commander is one of the few Numerians the Terrans have been able to take captive. Ken has a really nifty scene where the prison hospital is described. However I think that it is old canon and needs updating.

Thorgrimm Wrote:
Coco, I apologize for taking so long to reply to your post, The Thanksgiving holiday and 'Black' Friday got in the way and took up all of my time.  :-[

Yeah, Jenny and Izzy are the perfect comedic duo for this story. Jenny was introduced in the Denevan War, while this story is the debut for Isuro.

Yep, Jenny is absolutely the personality type to consider a crash landing a good one. Excessive amounts of confidence and fearlessness abound in her.  ;D

Have no fear, you will get to see the Ghost Ryder and his team in action. I think you will like it too.  8)

You better believe it. She has all the modern ammo types. The .44 mag she carries has been modified so that it can use a binary propellant. Yes, she does get to go all 'Dirty Harry' on the Holy Rollers and she has plenty of modern weapons.

Yep, Cav is one of those types that you have locked up in a room with "Do not let out, except in case of war," on the door!  ;D

No, they have a good 800 yard range, it's just the plasma rifles have such a high rate of fire that it seems like they are 'spray 'n' pray' types.

You have not read yet where they encounter the Aero'Bei super tank Captain Fox gave the briefing on earlier in the book about. Trust me, they will need it!  ;)

Engrei makes an appearance later in the story and you are correct. He is one of the reasonable Numies, and he is just doing what he is told.

In the next chapter Gaiven gets to eat some humble pie, served up by the Terrans.  ;) ;D

Yeah, my love of comic books is peeking through!  8) ;D

Good review and glad to see you are enjoying the story bud, thanks!!

Cheers, Thor

Coco Wrote:
No problem, holiday season and all that :)  And yeah, The Terrans have a really strong "Old and trusty" vibe going on with them, they aren't really upgrading to new things if the old ones still get the job one, right?

Oh, I do have one question the terrans seem to have gone from Gauss weapons -> Plasma then back to Gauss?

Thorgrimm Wrote:
When needed the updates are done immediately. However the philosophy is: "If it ain't broken, no need to fix it."

As in the real world they try all weapons types, and use the best ones to accomplish the mission. Against the Denevans energy weapons were the best. While against the Numies kinetic weapons are best.

Cheers, Thor

Haegan Wrote:
As an aside, Numerian and Draugir weapons tech is almost totally energy based. As such, their defenses are specialized towards energy discharges, not kinetic. Oddly, they are sufficiently advanced to actually be vulnerable to really older tech as their defenses simply don't take high energy kinetics into account.

Neither side uses lasers any longer, but protection against lasers is included in their layered defenses. They use more esoteric weapons like anti-matter conversion beams, fusion weapons, and gravity wave weapons as standards. Their bigger craft will mount more esoteric(and dramatically more destructive) weapons, but we do not see them until much later.

Haegan Wrote:
The BB come in different models, with the main battle fleet units that are reserved for the Draugir or Nephilim carry the more nasty capabilities and the resulting maintenance that come with it.

However, both the Draugir and the Numies maintain Mega-Capital Carriers capable of dropping thousands of fighters each into a battle. Needless to say, they are prime targets for both sides.

One of the reasons that we do not see large unit movements from the Commonwealth Battle Fleet units is that the Draugir are deliberately flexing their muscles and  making threatening movements at the Borders. Otherwise the Fleets the Terrans would be facing would notably larger. As it is, the Terrans are fighting the Defensive fleets and resources provided by only 2 of the Commonwealths sectors. The Sanei do/did not believe that more was required...

Towards the end of the fighting on Rigel the Sanei have to open the general war warehouses to provide basic war materials to Aerobhins forces. The Terrans were getting really good at convoy raiding and it is not until near the end of the book that Aerobhin is able to enforce general convoys and get sufficient escorts for them.

Generally, while the Numies and the Draugir understand that war is about infrastructure, they do the equivalent by blowing the crap out of each others planets.

Coco's Chapter 8 Review

Chapter 8

Not much to say about the first little part, but the next part is back to Jenny ,Isuro and co on their crazy flight to Rigel.  I love that part so much, it may be pretty light-hearted, especially in comparison to the rest of the book which has a much more serious tone, Jenny and Isuoro are pretty good comic relief!

What's FEBA?

I love the Numerian landing scene, its a moment where you can feel like the good guys are winning a little bit, and that the Numies are getting what they deserve for once.  It also does a lot to show the inadequcies of Numerian military thought compared to the Terans, If the terrans had anywhere near the same tech level as the Numies I reckon the invasion of rigel would have ended with a hell of a lot more Numerians dead.  (If it had happened at all.)

Tian is also another pretty nice character, in this book, there are characters I dislike, but none that I think are badly written.

Can I ask how old the characters like Jenny and Eric are, they are all referenced as having been in the Denevan war, right?  They must be all in their 50s/60s?  Late 40s at the most.

I must ask, is Gaiven always as blood thirsty as he acts, or does he become more enlightened through Aerobhin's influence?

I note that the Terrans use White Phosphorous?  Is it no longer banned by then, or have The Terrans become so desperate that any rules like  that are out the window, if that is the intention the thought of white phosphorous, or any formerly banned weapons, though a small issue in the story at large, can be quite a powerful image.

The scene where the Terrans use anti-matter missiles to wipeout a load Numies is very well written.    I quite enjoyed the nasty surprise that the Terrans give 'em!

Also, what does SoCom stand for?

Thorgrimm Wrote:
FEBA is a military acronym and stands for Forward Edge of the Battle Area.

All Military Personnel and Colonists recieve a primitive version of an Anagathic, or a chemical that slows down the aging process, which adds about 30 years to a Human lifespan. Physically they are in their 20's, but in chronological years they are in their 50's.

Gaiven is a typical Numerian Military Order member. However, under the tutelage of Aerobhin he mellows out and gains in wisdom, AKA not such a pain in the backside.

According to the US Army field manual on the Rule of Land Warfare, "The use of weapons which employ fire, such as tracer ammunition, flamethrowers, napalm, and other incendiary agents, against targets requiring their use is not violative of international law. US Army Field Manual 27-10: Rule of Land Warfare. However, saying that, it was banned in the Gunnyverse around the 2400's.  ;D Until the Holy Roller War.

WMD's are now being used.  ;D

SOCOM is another military acronym, and it stands for Special Operations Command. AKA Force Recon, Special Boat Service, Green Berets, and the like.

Cheers, Thor

Coco Wrote:
Ah, I see.  But honest, there is some prohibition on their use, perhaps some countries have banned WP, but not others?  Or am I thinking of something else?

Thorgrimm Wrote:
You are correct. Some nations have banned them, and even the US has restrictions on their usage.

For example, you cannot use it in interrogations and infantry in the open. To bust bunkers and fortifications filled with troops is ok though.

WP is like minefields. Some nations have banned them, while others have not.

Cheers, Thor

Coco's Chapter 7 Review Part 2

Chapter 7 part two

Jenny's actually pretty awesome here, I usually prefer the straight out combat parts of the book, but this particular section is damned fun.  Especially where Jenny tells Isuro that they will probably die on the way down.

Again, this is a question that I may have asked already, is the Terra all human tech, or has it been made with other species stuff?  (And I'm certain I've asked this before, but I seem to remember the Terra being the same size as 3 Americas or 2 Numie battleships, right?)

Also, the terra is one of 2 new designs, right?  There's a new Terran Cruiser under design/construction, right?

Admiral Denisov is like Leonidas and Raginis rolled into one, he genuinely may be, despite his short “screen time” my favourite character in the book!

Didn't have much to add to my last section, the reports themselves don't take too long to write, re-reading a chapter though....

Anyway, Denisov and the German fighter pilot who's name escapes me are by far my favourite characters in the story, the German mostly because he's like a cheesy 80s action hero and he isn't ashamed of the fact!

Thorgrimm Wrote:
1.) Yeah, Jenny is a fun character to write. I had Jenny so adventurous that I felt she needed an 'anchor' to reality, hence Isuro was born. As cautious as Jenny is adventurous.  ;D

2.) The Terra Class incorporates some technology found in the ancient city the Terrans have found. An America is about a mile in length, while the Terra is 2.5 miles in length. However, it takes enough resources that could have been used to build three Americas.

3.) The names need to be changed to fit the new canon. However, there was a new Heavy Cruiser being designed to accompany the Terra Class. I am thinking of calling it the Kirov Class. I always liked that name.  ;D

4.) Yeah, Denisov is another character that is fun to write. I have in him all that is good in the great officers, of all Human military history, that I see. He is the direct opposite of Polowatski, who represents all of the bad things I see in human military history.

5.) von Schöler is my homage to all fighter jocks, who, every single one I have met, think they are the greatest pilot in the universe and are not embarrassed to tell you so. However, von Schöler just may be correct in his bold-faced claim.  ;) As for Fleet  Admiral Denisov, what can I say, the man is just pure class.  ;D

Cheers, Thor

Coco Wrote:
I like Kirov, another favorite for me is "Black Prince".

Thorgrimm Wrote:
Yeah, that is a good one too. I will have to remember that one!

Cheers, Thor

Coco's Chapter 7 review, part 1

Ok, just gonna do chapter 7 up til the outpost today, a short one to keep me in the swing of things.

First:  This Numerian order, I take it they are one that is more involved in the “Intelligence” side of things?  How does Numerian Intelligence work?  They don't strike me as being particularly espionage inclined?  I take it they mostly do things like code-breaking and information gathering?  More like say GCHQ than MI6/CIA?

Are these Numerians acting independently, or do they hint that Aerobhin has actually sent them there?

Also, these Numerians are using powered suits, yes?  Is that something that all Numerians military forces use or is it unique to these ones?

A few questions about the Draugir, I've been wandering about them.

Are they of the same tech level as the Numerians?

How are they like compared to the Numerians in cultural terms?

What is their government like?

They have engineered the T-N war?  Are they doing anything else?  The death Merchant, is he a Draugir?  Or a Numerian that worships the Nephilim/the bad guys from the dark universes?

In the 200 years after the T-N war, does the UST recover from its losses?  Or is it still ,eft decimated?  Do they advance much technological, do they at all reach the same level as the Numerians?

Thorgrimm Wrote:
1.) I see them only using scouts to recon future targets. Beyond that they do not care enough about their enemies to want to collect data on them.

2.) Haegan will have to answer that one.

3.) They were sent by Aerobhin. As he told Sarochia he would do.

4.) Only specialist Numerian units use Powered Armor. The Regulars see them as unneeded and only lowers the glory that can be earned in combat.

5.) Yes, they are roughly equal, however, they use different types of technology.

6.) The Draugir love to kill, destroy, and conquer. Think all of the evil of Genghis Khan, Hitler, and Stalin all rolled into a species.

7.) It is ruled by what is called the Volvas Council. So I guess it would be an Oligarchy since only Draugir backed by the Volvas ever rule. BTW In Old Norse Volvas = Witch.

8.) Only time will tell.  ;)
8A.) No, he is Denevan.

9.) The future, difficult to see.  ;)  ;D

Cheers, Thor

Haegan Wrote:
The Commonwealth does not do much intel on its own. It is quite willing to let others do it for them. The closest they have is the Survey Fleet. It is involved in not only general survey, but also signal intercept in ways that you and I would have trouble conceiving of. One ship has enough processing power onboard to solve just about any encryption you care to think about. If they hit a block they can call upon the Commonwealths Mainframes for additional assistance or even alternative ideas. Though I admit that I do not see that often. Most of the Commonwealths focus however, is not on the surrounding young races. It is on the opponents with which they war. The Draugir and their masters, the Nephilim.

Makes you wonder how they have access to the current Terran language matrixes. :)

I will say that they do pay some mild attention to the affairs of the established powers through highly automated means like hidden probes. Much of what is collected though never sees a living eye as the comps do a fairly thorough job by now of knowing what triggers to look for. No, as of the time of the war the Terrans are not considered an established power.  ;D

This order is actually a order of militarily oriented priests. Their armor is a mix of hardened body suit armor and light power armor. Both are environmentally sealed and work well in space and other hazardous environments. They are acting on information given to them by a higher order member who is a relation of Sarochia. While Aerobhin knows of it, and has arranged to cover their absence, he cannot openly admit to them being there without catastrophic consequences.

Power armor is limited to defensive units on major worlds or units tasked towards dealing with the Draugir. It is not in otherwise wide spread use as the normal environmental armor is pretty good protection. The ground units used in the war are not battle Fleet units. Rather they are donated by the various orders and paid for and mostly supplied by the Commonwealth's Senate appropriations. The Military orders, however, cannot afford to provide for power armor except for a few specialized units on their own. The general belief of many that the armor minimizes the glory of the fight does not help that, unfortunately. Even the basic environmental armor would have made them far more effective and durable in the fighting on Rigel.

Thorgrimm Wrote:
If you think hard enough you already know how.  ;)

Good post bud!

Cheers, Thor

Coco Wrote:
I'll try and get the next report up tonight, but its Guy fawkes night so I might be going out to catch a glimpse of the celebrations, so tomorrow morning may be a more likely time.

I do have a couple of questions first though.

I may be wrong here but I think I heard it mentioned somewhere that the population of the terrans was 100-200 billion?  What is the population of the Numerians?

Also, do the numerians have what we would call "normal" relations with the other  powers?  Do they have trade and such with them or do all the other powers just have the words "Here be dragons" Written over Numerian space on their maps?

I may have asked this before, but are the Draugir the only species out there on equal footing with the Numerians?  (asside from elohim/nephilim)  Or is there another great power out there?

Thorgrimm Wrote:
That's fine bud, I am a patient person.  ;D

1.) Haegan will have to answer this one.

2.) As far as the Terrans know they treat all of the others the same way, "stay out of our yard, and we will let you live."  :P Until the T-N War, the other races thought the Numies had either gone away or died off. No contact had been made in over 300 years. Also, their borders were defended by Automated defenses. No living Numies were involved in the defense.

3.) The universe is a big palce, you never know...  ;) ;D

Cheers, Thor

Haegan Wrote:
As of the time of this writing, the population had fallen over the past thousand years from about 650 billion to a little over 400 billion. The falling population has resulted in the near abandonment of hundreds of developed colony worlds leaving little but caretaker populations on them.

Of course, the Numerians tend to live more spread out then humans do. To them, Numeria is packed at 3 billion population on the planet and above in orbit. With another 150 million in deep space habitats and orbital manufacturing around the other planets in the system, it is the most populated system by far in the Commonwealth. Many of the 'heavily' populated systems have populations in the region of 250 million give or take a few with only four other systems even approaching 500 million.

Coco's Chapter Six Review

Chapter 6

I think the fact that the start of this chapter draws comparisons between both sides is good, because it does allow the Numerians to be looked upon in a not so negative light.  Also, the fact that the Numerians are not getting the same challenge out of the Terrans that they expected hints that it may be beginning to occur to the average Numerians, at least the soldiers, that the Terrans may not be guilty of what they have been accused of?

It also highlights to a degree the factionalism in the Numerian military.  Do the Numerians keep the orders system?  Do they at any point ever adopt a different system?

The “Death Merchant”, is he part of the whole corruption of the Aeor'bei thing?  I will admit I'm surprised his presence is tolerated by the Numerians.  And is he a Numerian or another species?  

The Aero and Naff'Bei are the two largest orders, right?  Are there any other major orders?  Any that approach the size or influence of those two?

I've been wondering about the possibly for the Terrans to put the Numerians in a position where they need peace?  If they had a full-blown Alliance with the Romans and those Halorians you mentioned, would they be able to put the Numerians in such a position that they cannot afford to divert any more forces or say risk an attack from the Draugir?    The Numerians really don't seem to be equipped for wars of attrition, I take it that means that they're conflict with the Draugir does not often openly spill out into war?

Out of interest, do the Numerians make any reparations to the Terrans at the end of the war?  Also, how do the casualties of each side measure up?  The war seems to me to draw a few parallels with the earlier stages of the Nazi invasion of the USSR, or probably closer actually to Poland, Rigel is a bit like Wizna.

I think I've discussed this before, but ship for ship how many Numerian vessels could the Terra bring down had it been fully armed and operational?

I take it that the 'verse that BTS and all this is set in does not include artificial gravity?

Haegan Wrote:
Coco, Thor is in the Hospital so I will take a shot at answering you.

1. It has occurred to some Numerians that something is not on the up and up.

2. I will not discuss the future as of now as it would reveal it. Anticipation is the key to a good story!

3. There are many orders, none of which approach the sizes of the Naff'bei and Aero'bei. There are a few other major orders that are employed against the Terran's, but you will not see them until the next book.

4. Technically yes, however the Terrans are unaware of this. The Numerian Navy is far larger then the Army in terms of manpower to the point it is not funny. He who controls the void of space controls the planet below.

The wars between the Draugir and the Numerians, some of them lasting decades, will be touched on later. But they tend to end because both sides simply cannot support their forces any longer. Ie, dang bloody affairs.

5. We'll let you find out :)  The Terrans suffer far worse casualties by far. The Numerians only a few million from the Terrans. It is sufficient to say that the Draugir have not been passive so far....

6. That is a very open question. Assuming the Terra had survived to reach the Numerian fleet? Several.

7. Only a few races have the gravity tech. Terra is not one of them, though they can mimic it through acceleration and deck orientation like we do today.

Dang good questions bud!

Thorgrimm Wrote:
1.) Right now the average Numie still sees the Terrans as Saruchi, since this is what the Sanei tells them. It is only at the highest echelons of the Numerian Government that they are beginning to think that 'Something is rotten in Denmark'. Although, they have the populace so worked up into a blood frenzy that if they suddenly reversed themselves, without good evidence or reason, the common Numie would revolt. So they have a tiger by the tail and cannot let go.

2.) That involves the future, and the future is always difficult to see.  ;D

3.) His presence is only tolerated by the Aero'Bei. If any of the other orders, or the Sanei, ever got wind of his working with the Aero'Bei there would be trouble for the Aero'Bei.

4.) Haegan answered this one as well as could be.

5.) The only way is if the UST allied with every other species, along with the Draugir, and hit the Numies at once. HOWEVER, all of this would just cause the extinction of the lesser teched species and a Draugir victory due to the Numie fleets drawn off to deal with the small fry. Moreover, a Draugir victory would be far worse for the galaxy, far worse than anything the Numies would do. The Numies are arrogant, but they are not evil. The Draugir are bred to be the blackest evil you can think of.

6.) In canon the only thing that happens is the Numies stop attacking and tell the Terrans to stay out of Numerian space. Along with the standard 'Don't call us, we will call you'. Offhand I would say, in the new canon, the Numies lose several million, including a few planets. However, the Terrans lost tens of billions and most of the planets between the Numie Orion Quad border and Earth. I would say it parallels more the Pacific Theater of the US counteroffensive against Japan. With the Numies as the US, and the UST as Japan. The Terrans had as much a chance of beating the Numies as the Japanese had of beating the US. None.

7.) If the Terra had gotten into the midst of the Numerian fleet intact, the Numies would say goodbye to several squadrons of capital ships. This is why, as a hint, the rest of the Orion and S-C Quads develop their own Mega-Capital Ships. However, the Terra was unfinished and as such did the only thing they could to kill Numie ships.

8.) if your Tech Level is high enough, Artificial Grav does become available. Right now only the Numies, Atheri, and Draugir have any AG Tech.

Sorry it took so long to answer your questions. Very good ones, by the way.

Cheers, Thor

Coco's Chapter 5 Review

Chapter 5

What I draw from this is that the Numerians, despite being massively more advanced, have a considerable disadvantage as far as doctrine goes.  The whole factionalism through the orders also seems to put them almost more ad odds with themselves than their enemies.  Do the Numerians have a history of civil war/coups?

Also, how long previously was the Denevan war? Because there seems to be a lot of people running around that must be nearly 60 :)

And the Zeus tanks were the thing that got me thinking about those questions abot refitting ground units that I asked a while back, they're like sci-fi fireflies.

The terran belief that they can drain enough Numerian manpower on Rigel made me think about what you said about them only facing police forces, does that mean that the Terrans are wrong when they think they can drain 'em?  Also, would a similar attack to that shown in the Damocles story be impossible for the Terrans to perform?  Speaking of which, another barely related question, in that story you mention that the Numerians and terrans are at the same tech level, does that mean the terrans are more advanced than in the book, or the Numerians are less?

The Romans come to terran aid, are there any other groups out there that do the same?  I can imagine that there are a lot of nations and races that wouldn't like a Numerian empire out there that could potentially wipe them out.

May I ask who the mysterious officer at the back of the room during Denisov's speech is?  I think I get that he isn't human, but aside from that, I'm not sure, is he Elohim or something?

Bit more timely this time I think.  :)

Thorgrimm Wrote:
1) in their past, when they were not fighting the Draugir, they tended to try and prove which order was best. Hence the intense rivalry between the Naff'Bei and Aero'Bei. However, Haegan can give you better info on this question.

2) The Denevan, or Kitty, War was 25 years previous. The Terrans also have a primitive type of anti-agapic, which prolongs human lifespans by 30 to 50 years, depending on the person.

3) Sure, this is why there are rules for refitting units.  :)

4) yep, they are wrong. However, we have to remember PoV. They do not know just how big the Commonwealth really is, and as such they base their assumptions on what they have experience with.

5) yes, it is impossible.

6) In that other story the Terrans were more successful in finding high technology in the Progenitor ruins they have found, and that makes them more advanced than in the book.

7) The only species willing to do so are the Halaorians. The Halaorians have linked their destiny to that of the Terrans, and as is said in the test of Wills book, To live or die the Halaorians will stand side by side with the Terrans. The reason for this is that the Terrans saved the Hallies from extinction, and gave them a new home from which they could once more thrive.

However, if it looks like the Numies are stumbling, or Numeria gets nuked, you can expect the rest of the minor races to dogpile on them. Even a Lion or bear can be taken down by a dog pack.

8 ) He is Walther Essex, the best friend of Gunnery Sergeant DeShane.

Thanks you for the excellent report bud!

Cheers, Thor

Haegan Wrote:
IIRC, we have a scene in which some Terran officers are discussing the numies. They mention how elementary the tactics used to be, and how they seem to be gradually improving. I think (my memory of the scene is a little blurry at the moment) that they mention what effort the Numerians are going through to clean out dead wood. They are not that far from being wrong.

One of the issues about the eons old war with the Draugir is that there has been little planetary combat between the 2 races. Or at least little sustained combat in recent memory. The Numerian Navy is positively leviathanic compared to its ground forces. Pin point orbital bombardment by both sides means not much survives to pose a threat to an invading force. There is no clash of armies, only a multitude of small unit actions. Something the Numerians and the Draugir are VERY good at. Army level interactions and the experience to run them? Well, its written down in the deep archives if anyone cares to go looking...

This is not to say that there is not a Numerian army that will not fight equivalently to the Terran forces. It simply has not been deployed to Rigel due to Order factionalism. The Sanei took the larger Orders at their word. Needless to say there will be some interesting questions asked during one of the books, even if only behind the scenes. The deployed orders loose a good deal of equipment and standing as a result of the fighting.
As for civil wars and Coups.... It happens, but not often. They have been, with remarkably few exceptions, bloodless. One of the morals of the Commonwealth is that citizens do not kill citizens. To willfully kill another who poses no threat to you is considered a kind of insanity that needs to be culled. Lets face it, the average politician simply is not a physical threat to most people. Psionics aside of course. They do permit challenges, but there are many levels of challenges. Almost all are non-violent like competitions be they personal or team oriented. However, the warrior guilds military personnel are permitted to give and receive violent challenges that may result in blood loss or even death at the highest level. A challenge to the death is generally frowned upon, but you may have noticed that offers to give another a severe and embarrassing drubbing seems to be bandied about a lot in the higher ranks.

A good summation of their psyche is to say "Killing each other is bad, blowing up others is not bad." One could almost say that it is a matter of preservation of assets....

The Numerian Commonwealth is fairly tightly woven together because it has a continuing outside threat to it that it has be fighting for eons. There are also the Elohim to consider and how they play into the development of the Numerian civilization. But that is its own lengthy post and will be dealt with later.

An important point to remember is that the Commonwealth has the POV that many old Terran civilizations have. They see themselves as the shining light of this galaxy. The one true way, etc. And all others are barbarians. The Atheri being a possible exception, but the population who give a damn are split about 50/50 on the birds.

Coco's Chapter 4 Review

Chapter 4:

The start of this chapter does a nice job again of hitting home just how desperate this war is for the Terrans, what with the dire lack of manpower and such.

A question that occurred to me, the Terrans seem to have colonies that are in a different area of space, I forget the name now, but they appear to be an exclave, on the other side of the Romans I believe?  Are these former Denevan worlds or something similar?

It also introduces yet another one of those characters, Ritterman is another cool character, not quite the same level as Denisov, but pretty fantastic nonetheless.

The chapter then of course introduces another character in the shape of Kirkland.  He is another pretty nice character.  Everybody loves a fighter ace, though the German is by far the better of the two.  I also have to admit that I personally really enjoy seeing description of military equipment, not sure why, I just like 'em.

There's chapter 4.  Its not particularly indepth, the chapter is nice, but its difficult to talk about.  I'll probably revisit it at some point eventually.

Thorgrimm Wrote:
In the Gunnyverse there are two types of Jump Gates. One type opens a portal into hyperspace for FTL movement, and this type is the most common type of gate. The second type, and extremely rare, is a gate that opens a wormhole directly to another fixed point in space, and travel through it is instantaneous.

The Terrans found one of these Progenitor Gates and it leads to the Scutum-Centaurus Quadrant of the Galaxy. The UST resides in the Orion Quadrant of the Galaxy. No, these are not Former Denevan systems, but systems the Romans sold to the Terrans and then our own expansion.

Master Gunnery Sergeant Eric Ritterman is first introduced in the Denevan war, and as such, is one of my reocurring characters for continuity.

The pilot Terrence Kirkland is my homage to the silk-scarf wearing WW1 fighter pilots from the movies of the 20's and 30's. He is also modeled on the outstanding British WW1 pilot Albert Ball. A very good pilot who died young.

Thanks for the report Coco. I look forward to your next one.

Cheers, Thor

Coco's Chapter Three review:

Here we go, more meat on the bones this time.

Chapter 3

This chapter is quite important, it gives Jenny and her folks a good intro, it also seems to be an important part of the back story of the universe, it makes the Stranded Dark One look very, very menacing.  The fact that they seem to have killed the Numerians with just as much impunity as they did the Humans says a lot about just how powerful they are.  Jenny is another one of those characters, she's not the same kind of military hero like the others, she's like a female Indiana Jones,  she's an adventurer, not a soldier.

Aerobhin is a pretty complex character, if I could compare him to any real person it'd be Rommel, but he's still got a Jodl level of culpability, he's one of the few Numerian characters that I have any form of sympathy with.  The odd thing is that, while the Numerians are honourable in an odd way, I still don't reckon there's any of their leadership that wouldn't be hung at a war crimes trial.

Also, glad to see the Sci-Fi megacorps are in existence, are they the evil type?

One thing I am curious about though is the size of the terran military, When King is talking about moving the warships she mentions “two dozen Dreadnoughts”  How big was the terrran fleet before the war and at the time of the book?  The army too, I assume they must have had millions upon millions of soldiers?

Also this chapter brings us back to the Terra, honestly that ship is the coolest thing in this book :) .  I'm wondering how its tech compares to the America, and I was wondering too how old the America is?

Thorgrimm Wrote:
Just like in real life, you have both kinds. The Wegman-Yamashiro Corps is on the edge, and is planned to take a trip to the dark side in search of profit. The TE&TC is a by the book, follow the rules, kind of company.

The UTSN had 24 full fleets of a thousand ships per fleet. The UT Army was about 50K divisions and the UTMC had around 5K divisions. However, these were peacetime fleets that had been gutted by budget cuts.

The Terra is the HMS Dreadnought of her time. Her tech would be approximately 22. While the Americas, even with their SLEP's would be around TL 15. The Americas were first seen about 15 years before the Denevan War, which makes them around 40 to 50 years old.

As for the Numies, if they were beaten by the UTS, all of their leaders would qualify as war criminals under the Geneva Convention, except for Aerobhin. Your Rommel analogy is correct. Rommel is the model for his personality. Good catch.  :)

Yep, Jenny is an "individual' and as such is the perfect TIA and SOCOM operative.

Cheers, Thor

Coco Wrote:
Could you remind me what SLEPs are?  I can never remember acronyms.

Thorgrimm Wrote:
Sorry, I keep forgetting most folks are not good with Acronyms.  :-[

Service Life Extension Program

Cheers, Thor

I finally had somebody who agreed to do an in depth of the GPI novels. I told Coco to not mince words, if it is good, tell me, also if it is bad tell me that too.

So what I intend to do is to post his initial overall impression and his chapter one review. After that I am going to post one chapter review, and any relevant replies, a day, to allow discussion and questions to be asked.  :)

Cheers, Thor

Coco146 Wrote:
Don't have the first report finished yet, so I'm gonna have to make this thread to give me a kick in the trousers   ;D

I'm going to start with my overall impressions first, I know we discussed this over Skype but it can't hurt to have it here.

Well, I enjoyed the book, as I said, after the technical issues were resolved, it is nice and easy, perfectly simple to understand and doesn't mince words, for someone like me who just can't be bothered to follow the over complicated nonsense that some folks like to write that's a godsend.  It also has a couple of characters who I can sit and read and say to myself "this person is solid gold awesome" (Admiral Denisov in particular is just pure win, he's like Leonidas and Monty all in one.)  The book is quite long, but I never stopped enjoying it, it never got tedious.  The only parts that I didn't like were the parts about what psy-war and the intelligence guys get up to, not that I don't like the writing, I just find reading about espionage difficult, particularly when it involves assassinations and such, weird I know, I'm just a complete **** I guess.

Thorgrimm Wrote:
We all have our likes and dislikes.   ;D

Thank you for your report and look forward to the others.

Cheers, Thor

Haegan Wrote:
It's hard for people to look at the good guys and hear "assassins" but i can see the Terrans doing it based off of how the war is going. Desperate times would call for desperate measures.

Just because the CIA(TIA in the future) is not supposed to do wet work now, does not mean that the ability to do it does not exist in the future after the nation gets reconstituted. It would depend I think on how the other powers would view it. I think I can say that some of them use wet work on a regular basis, at least internally. Those that do, would also have no issues using it on those who are not their citizens as well.

Originally I had thought that the assassin capability was a result of the war, but the guy with the sharpened teeth seemed to have been  around for awhile and Chris Coleman seemed to have a pretty good knowledge of how to do the frame up(ie he seemed practiced).

Thorgrimm Wrote:
One of my goals with my writing is to keep it real, and we all know every intelligence service, of every nation that has ever existed, has 'things' they would like to keep hidden. So, the TIA had to reflect that reality and Ivan is one of those 'things' that is only released in times of dire emergency.    ;D

Just tryin' ta keep it 'real'.   8)

By the way, War is just legalized murder. There is no glory in war. However, it is a dirty and nasty job that, sometimes, must be done.

I will finish up this post with a quote from the best politician ever produced in that sceptered isle of Great Britain, and he says it best:

"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.” --Winston Churchill

Amen Winston

Cheers, Thor

Coco Wrote:
Right got the first two, sorry they are so short, but I just ain't got much time, and frankly I'm exhausted   :(


Its short but utterly indespensable, not much to say beyond it sets the scene, without the information contained within a lot of the story wouldn't make sense.

Chapter 1:

The opening of this chapter really nicely sets the scene, the whole without hope theme.  The image of the broken fleet drifting above the planet really gets that across.  I will say, reading the book the first time had me a little confused, but now I have a much better understanding of what's going on, I just found the way in which it changed focus on character time and location very quickly a little different.  While there is a bit of a “we're doomed” vibe, the fact that the book starts off with the terrans getting of a successful strike on the Numerians keeps it exciting, shows that, at least from the perspective of the story then the terrans are still in with a chance.  We also meet the first two of those awesome characters that are spread throughouthe story, Carter is plain and simple cool, not in the by the book hero way that Denisov is, he seems to be a maverick, a bit of a Buccaneer.

Chapter 2:

I don't think there is much to say about this chapter aside from the fact that I really don't like the Terran nor the Numerian Political leadership.  Can't explain the Terrans, but the Numerians are just arrogant beyond the pale, honestly, if every single one of the Sanei were brutally assassinated I would not be bothered in the slightest, and you know how much I squirm at that sort of thing.  I don't really have much to add to this chapter, as we already discussed the part involving Psy-War.  I will say though that they seem to be almost as dangerous as the Numerians themselves, they look like they are letting themselves get involved in political games while they're species is on the verge of anihilation.  They acctually sound quite like the KGB or the FBI under Hoover.  Just for clarification, may I ask what the status of the “Blue Berets” mentioned latter is?  Are the a government affiliated group?  Or are they independent?

Thorgrimm Wrote:
The Blue Berets are Psykers not under the control of Psy-War, and as such are independent.

Yep, Carter is a maverick of sorts, why he fits Collinwood's Cutthroats so well. As a raiding group, based on the Long Range Desert Group of North Africa fame, the members have to be independent-minded and able to think on their feet.

Well, to be fair, there is a reason for that arrogance, and why it is not all of the Numie's fault. Something revealed in the Armageddon War Saga.  ;D

Thanks for the report bud. I look forward to the next one.

Cheers, Thor

Haegan Wrote:
The numies are what they are :)

And what they are are intentional, based off of what we thought the psychology of a race that had been at war for millennium and was still here kickin and screamin would be. While they have a reason to be feeling the way they do, I agree it does not make them look good to the standard christian views.

I would say that we achieved what we wanted to achieve in that scene! Thank you for your comments coco!

Beyond the Stars! / Re: where do you get BTS???
« on: December 10, 2013, 10:03:58 PM »
Can I get in on this?!?!?

Sorry I took sop long to answer, not getting the emails.  :P

We do need playtesters, can you commit to a playtesting schedule and willing to sign an NDA?

Cheers, Thor

Beyond the Stars! / A Small Slice of Gunnyverse History
« on: December 03, 2013, 11:25:29 AM »
Back in the 1970's I heard a song by the group Paper Lace called the Night Chicago Died. Ever since then I have always wanted to write up a 'historical' piece that inspired the group to write that song. Up until a couple of years ago I never did anything with the idea.

About 10 years ago I began to write, and one of the things I wrote was that 'historical' piece. So now it is incorporated into the official Gunnyverse canon.

Below is that effort. Comments are welcome.  :)


From July 27 to August 2, 1932, a Major gang push to take and rule Chicago began in that hot July night. When it was over one hundred and eight police officers and 250 mobsters were dead, 537 injured and about 1000 rendered homeless. The incident which sparked the 'war' was the shooting of a Capone hitter after he had drifted into a neighborhood controlled by a rival gang, on a hot, 96 degree day. The reasons for the 'war', however, lie solely with the greed and ambition of one Alphonse Capone, a vicious gangster, who controlled and organized the activities of the southside gangs, many of which were sponsored by Chicago's political machine. Most of the killing, murder, and arson was concentrated on the east side where Capone had staked out his new turf.

The 'war' was characterized by plenty of action on the part of gangs of hoodlums, and the clashes developed from sudden and spontaneous assaults into organized raids against life and property.

As part of the background of the Chicago gang war, the activities of gangs of hoodlums should be cited. There had been friction for years, especially along the western boundary of the area in which the southside gangs had tried to establish control in the spring just preceding the gang war. They reached a climax on the night of June 21, 1932, five weeks before the war, when two east-side mobsters were murdered. Each was alone at the time and was the victim of an unprovoked and particularly brutal attack.

As the raids began, clashes between the gangs stepped up. Further to the west, as darkness came on, Capone's mobster's became more active. Eastside mobsters caught in Capone's districts suffered severely at their hands. From 9:00pm until 3:00am twenty-seven Eastside mobsters were beaten, seven were stabbed, and four were shot.

The mobsters went back their territory to work the next day without incident, but a street strike forced workers to walk, creating opportunities for mayhem. But as the afternoon wore on, Capone and his boys sought malicious amusement in directing civilian mob violence against any eastside mobster they could find

Eastside mobs began to retaliate against the Capone mobsters. As the violence increased, police fired into a crowd of meleeing mobsters, killing four. the mobsters became emboldened and began to kill the police as well as each other, finally Capone began taking the offensive in raids through territory that he wanted to 'conquer'. Capone even began to use the boys of his men between sixteen and twenty-two to help with the 'conquest.'

Then it escalated even further, the drive-by shootings began: Automobile raids were added to the warring on Monday night. Cars from which Tommy guns and revolver shots were fired were driven at great speed through sections inhabited by the eastsiders. The Capone raiders were never arrested and eastsiders began 'sniping' at the police in retaliation for not stopping the raids. Chicago's Police Chief admitted to the Commission afterwards:
"There is no doubt that a great many police officers were grossly unfair in making arrests. They shut their eyes to offenses committed by Capone's men while they were very vigorous in getting all the eastsiders they could get.". Twice as many eastsiders were arrested than Capone men.

The next day gang violence grew worse; A gang of Capone's soldiers, augmented by civilians, raid the 'Loop' or downtown section of Chicago, early Tuesday, killing two eastside mobsters and beating and robbing several others. Capone and his allied gangs began raiding down as far south as Sixty-third Street in Englewood and in the section west of Wentworth Avenue near Forty-seventh Street. Pre-meditated depredations were the order of the night. Many homes in the districts were attacked, and several of them were burned. Lasalle Street railroad station was invaded twice, with Capone's gangs hunting for eastside hitters.

Rain seemed to calm the raids for a few hours and fires in the stockyards left 948 people, mainly Lithuanians, homeless. While eastside gangs were blamed for the fires, the Grand Jury suspected they were started in back of the yards by Capone and his gangs for the purpose of inciting feelings of anger by blaming it on the eastside mobs, in whose territory the stockyards were. However, by then, the war began to escalate.

The police began to intervene in the raids and so Capone then turned his Tommy guns on the police. In a running battle that even had a police station sacked and destroyed, Capone began an effort to so weaken the police that he would be essentially king, for they would be too weak to interfere with his plans for Chicago.

What actually happened was a 18 hour Gun battle where the eastside gangs were forgotten in the combat between Capone and the police. When it was over the police had finally stormed Capone's fortified hideout in Cicero and he was in custody,with a body count of 108 Police Officers dead to his credit.

Capone and his gangs, along with their activities, were an important factor throughout the raids. If not for them it is doubtful if the raids would have gone beyond the first clash. Both organized gangs, and those that sprang into existence because of the opportunity afforded, seized upon the excuse of the first conflict to engage in lawless acts.

Many of Capone's gangs came from the westside in and around Cicero, and even the police said they could get little information from residents about the activities of their gangs. The report later made about the raids singles out two of the worst of Capone's allies "Canaryville bunch" and "Hamburgs" as particularly tough and involved in the raids. Richard J. Daley, later mayor of Chicago, was a member of the gang at the time and was its president in 1924. The Hamburgs were sponsored by Bridgeport Alderman Joseph McDonough. Daley always refused to comment on whether he was involved in the raiding.

The worst of the gangs were Capone's killer's, a gang whose turf extended from Cicero to Oak Lawn and from Roosevelt Road to one hundred and eleventh Street. The gang was sponsored by Cook County Commissioner Frank Ragen. Gang members boasted that they were 'protected' and 'tipped off' by police. The Killers even broke into a police station at 47th and Halstead where they killed 12 Police Officers and stole evidence, along with some firearms.

Capone's Killers and other gangs were targeted by the Grand Jury, whose report stated:
"The authorities employed to enforce the law should thoroughly investigate clubs and other organizations posing as athletic and social clubs which really are organizations of hoodlums and criminals formed for the purpose of furthering the interest of local politics. These gangs have apparently taken an active part in the raiding, and no arrests of their members have been made as far as this jury is aware."

Other Gangs:

The Commission found that the gangs were mainly made up of boys 17-22 year old, and that many murders were committed by hitters as young as 14. Members of The Lorraine gang also terrorized residents and drove them out of areas around Wentworth and 47th. Our Flags gang, a gang located on 47th near Union participated in the raids, as did the Sparklers, were responsible for a fire on 5919 Wentworth which burned down a house. The Aylward gang also beat to death eastside mobsters in the Stockyards as a handy dumping grounds. Other gangs who participated in the raids included the Pine Club, Hamburgers, the Emeralds, the White Club, Favis Grays', and the Mayflower.

The 18 hour gun battle was later immortalized as a song by Paper Lace Called The Night Chicago Died

Cheers, Thor

Beyond the Stars! / Re: where do you get BTS???
« on: September 17, 2013, 05:38:39 PM »
I read it and agree to it, but do I need to send you anything?

Yes, you have to fill it out and then send me a copy to add to my files.  :)

Cheers, Thor

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