Author Topic: HOI3?  (Read 2072 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Beersatron

  • Rear Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 985
  • Thanked: 2 times
HOI3?
« on: August 12, 2009, 03:27:33 PM »
I have never played the HOI games or anything like it to be honest. I've always been interested in that kind of game (and especially ones set in WW2) but for some reason the lack of graphical, interactive battles put me off. Which is why I love the Total War series of games.

I guess you could say that I like both the strategic and the tactical layers to be in the games I play. i.e. I like to control the grand strategy including the minute details of what resource goes were and then at the same time I salivate at the chance to control individual units on the battlefield. Total War and a lot of the MOO genre games are probably in the middle bracket of that. They are either heavy on the minute details but light on the graphics, or heavy on the graphics but sacrificing the details.

Anyways, what am I getting at?

Is HOI3 any good?  :)
 

Offline Feralkoala

  • Leading Rate
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: HOI3?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2009, 04:25:04 PM »
HOI 3 has no tactical interface; it is an operational/strategic game. If that doesn't float your boat, you probably won't care for it. ATM it is also buggy, but waiting for the 1.2 patch at the end of the month might fix some of that.
 

Offline Paul M

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • P
  • Posts: 1276
  • Thanked: 25 times
Re: HOI3?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2009, 04:53:44 AM »
Given what you want I am afraid that HOI3 isn't likely to appeal to you.  The battle is basically all done by computer control and given you are dealing with provinces (or in many ways hexes) that are fairly geographically large it is abstracted a great deal.  There is a demo version of the game that I have played as I wait for my copy of the game to arrive.  I'd suggest downloading that and seeing if you like it.

The only game other than the TW series that I know of that allows you both strategic and tactical control is Crown of Glory...probably not the right name; it is set in the Napoleonic period and is available from Matrix games.  I've not played it but it allows you to fight out the battles on a mini-map.

For operational wargames you never get much control over units.  That is pretty much only limited to tactical games and those by the very fact that they are tactical are never large scale.  I have ETW but I find it doesn't appeal to me much as the diplomacy is non-sensical and that ruins the game for me.  If I wanted to play glorified Risk I would play Risk.  The same is true of both EU3 (too sandbox like and I'm not buying 2 additional expansions for a game I'm marginal on) and Rome (the macedonians probably hardly knew where Gaul was and they neither had the interest or ability to conquor tribes in it).  But tastes vary I just don't find them appealing.  I am a huge HOI2 fan and everything I've seen of HOI3 says it is a step in directions I like excepting they have a few historical faux pas to correct in the next big patch.

I'm trying to think of any games that give you what you want and I'm not coming up with much.  I'd scout the Matrix Games site and see if you spot things that you like.  You might enjoy The Operational Art of War playing some of the more detailed scenarios.  You also might like The Conquest of the Agean which has an extremely advanced command and control system.

It is just worth keeping in mind that "Real Time Strategy" is an oxymoron.  Strategy is something you devise while eating breakfast before starting the game, real time doesn't exist in any game with a pause and without it, time is hardly real.  And anyone who varies their strategy in real time deserves what they get anyway.  I blame books on chess strategy for this.  Books on playing chess are about tactics and not strategy...there isn't a "big picture" to chess.  You can't decide to invest in pawn warfare as opposed to bishop strikes.  Anyway this is neither here nor there, you can consider the above a strongly held opinion and leave it at that.
 

Offline Beersatron

  • Rear Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 985
  • Thanked: 2 times
Re: HOI3?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2009, 08:27:29 AM »
Thanks for the comments folks, I will probably just hold off on getting it for now. Aurora and RTW are taking up all my time.
 

Offline welchbloke

  • Rear Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 998
  • Thanked: 5 times
Re: HOI3?
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2009, 10:29:20 PM »
Anyone played the full version of HOI3 yet?  I've had a a quick dabble with the demo and I think I like it (I'm also a big fan of HOI2), I'm just not sure about the new higher formation commands rules as I didn't get any info with the demo.  Anyone care to explain how the corps/Army/army group command rules work now.  I did like the percentage rule for junior officers and NCOs, it should stop the almost exponential explosion of divisions I could pull off in HOI2.  Generally, before 1939 my army was too big to be troubled by anyone other than the Russians and they had the numbers but were generally technologically inferior.
Ramble over  :D
Welchbloke
 

Offline Paul M

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • P
  • Posts: 1276
  • Thanked: 25 times
Re: HOI3?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2009, 04:59:35 AM »
Quote from: "welchbloke"
Anyone played the full version of HOI3 yet?  I've had a a quick dabble with the demo and I think I like it (I'm also a big fan of HOI2), I'm just not sure about the new higher formation commands rules as I didn't get any info with the demo.  Anyone care to explain how the corps/Army/army group command rules work now.  I did like the percentage rule for junior officers and NCOs, it should stop the almost exponential explosion of divisions I could pull off in HOI2.  Generally, before 1939 my army was too big to be troubled by anyone other than the Russians and they had the numbers but were generally technologically inferior.
Ramble over  :D

I have the game and am playing.  I'm playing the USA right at the moment up to 38, I had to stop my Canada game because there is some sort of supply bug and my DD division in Vancouver wasn't getting supplies even if it was getting fuel.

The rules for the new chain of command are quite good.  You just need to spend time structuring things.  Some of this is a bit vague since my experience is limited.

1.  The highest level of command is theatre and this is set by the AI for you.  So you can say "re-do the theatre choice" but you can't define theatres.
2.  Below theatre is Army Group.
3.  Below Army Group is Army.
4.  Below Army is Corps.
5.  A division or brigade can be assigned to any level but if I understand things properly you can't have more than 5 units assigned to any level of command.  So the most divisions in a corp is 5.  However, since you probably want some corps troops (AA, MP, ENG, ART, AT, etc) likely you will have fewer.  What I don't think is the case is that there is a limit to the number of Corps attachable to an Army (but there may be the 5 unit limit here I am just unclear).  But in principle you can have 5 divisions to a Corps, 5 Corps to an Army, 5 Armies to an Army Group and 5 Army Groups to a theatre.
6.  Any level can be assigned Air assets without limit.  Any level can be assigned ships again without limit.
7.  All officers in the chain of command impact on the bonus to a unit.  So the division gets full benifit from his commanders skill and traits, it also gets half the Corps commanders skill and traits, and a quarter the army commanders skill and traits, and an eigth the army group commanders skill and traits and a sixteenth the theatre commanders skill and traits.
8.  The theatre commander also reduces the coordination penalty.  The Army group commander gives a reduction in the supply use of all units.  The Army Commander adds a bonus to the organization of units in the army.  The corps commander improves the chance of reinforcements going into battle.  These are over and above the other part in 7.

Creating these require you have a unit that it out of the command structure.  You click "create new corps HQ", it then makes one.  Then click on the new HQ and say make new Army HQ and so forth.  You can also make HQs that are for Naval forces or Airforces "Oberkommando der Luftwaffe", "US Army Airforce", "CENPAC", etc   I would make most of them Army or Army Group commands.  This gives you a lot of flexibility.

Volunteer army certainly makes things complex.  Also they are planning on including rules for ships and planes taking up officers so probably the draw on them will be higher.  As the USA at the moment I have 23 research projects underway and am having a lot of difficulty staying current on a lot of stuff.  My naval theory and practicals are very good mind you.  Other than CAGs though I've not been making many air craft and there isn't that much to research.  I might put the airpower point into theory now that I think on it.  The decay principle though really keep things in perspective.  It is going to take some doing to get my motorized infantry into production as my theory and practical both stink.  Also you will need to budget seriously for doctrines.  As the USA I would say: 2 for land, 4 for navy, and 3 for air.  I can't see how you can avoid not developing a bit of everything in the naval branches and you have to mix and match with the land ones.

My only negatives from playing the USA is that I have money I don't know what to do with.  I also have more resources then I can concievably use.

Anyway if you have other questions I'll do my best.
 

Offline welchbloke

  • Rear Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 998
  • Thanked: 5 times
Re: HOI3?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2009, 03:51:56 PM »
Thanks, that helps a bit with the demo.  I probably won't get the main game until Oct/Nov so expect some questions around then  :D
Welchbloke
 

Offline Paul M

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • P
  • Posts: 1276
  • Thanked: 25 times
Re: HOI3?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2009, 04:04:03 AM »
1.2 will be out in under 2 weeks so likely there will be changes and improvements.

One thing that is new is attack delay.  After you attack and win but before you can give new orders there is a delay of up to 178 hours.  I believe this also includes the battle so in most cases you are looking at delays under 100 hours.  This means that if you want to exploit you need to plan that before hand and use the shift-click method of indicating target provinces since at least in the demo there is no delay between each targeted move.

Playing at least once as Germany is the most useful demo option.  I left the AI in charge of the west front and it did well enough.  When I got through with the Poles my strategic re-deployment stabilized the line.  The cream of the French army was rather spoiled as well since they got hammered hard when I ejected them from Germany.  

Anyhow feel free to ask away though I am not sure many would accept my advice since I tend to play a very historical game and avoid gamey cheesy crap.
 

Offline Hawkeye

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1043
  • Thanked: 2 times
Re: HOI3?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2009, 01:20:07 PM »
Unfortunately, shift-clicking got removed in the 1.1 patch, as far as I can tell, this means no blitzing anymore.
There is a work around in using two seperate forces, one to make the breakethroung and the other afterwards, to exploit, but it is realy cumbersome right now.
Waiting for 1.2 (or more likely for 1.3 - 1.4) before I fire this one up again.
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline welchbloke

  • Rear Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 998
  • Thanked: 5 times
Re: HOI3?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2009, 06:47:44 PM »
Looks like having to wait until Oct/Nov is a good thing.  At least it should come with the patches preinstalled.
Welchbloke
 

Offline Paul M

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • P
  • Posts: 1276
  • Thanked: 25 times
Re: HOI3?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2009, 02:07:20 AM »
As the question was about the demo version which still allows that I didn't bother mentioning that 1.1c removed it.

As for an exploitation force that is reasonably historically accurate and was usually how I played the game in the past.  The real blitzkrieg tactics uses infantry to smash the line open and then tanks go through the gap to exploit so there is no obvious problem with the current situation.  It is just one of those things that annoys players because they loose control.  And in my experience nothing is more annoying to a player than a lack of control for all most players will ask for a realistic C&C system when implemented there is always great wailing and knashing of teeth.

I don't count myself out of that general catagory of players either.

I am currently getting very frustrated with the ground combat system in WitP AE.  I had forgotten how frustrating that whole "shock attack" garbage is.  I am seriously considering removing the game from my hard drive just because the ground combat is absurd.  There seems to be a built in bonus to the japanese.
 

Offline Hawkeye

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1043
  • Thanked: 2 times
Re: HOI3?
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2009, 10:16:23 AM »
Well, the delay thing, as it is now, brings another problem.
Say, I have an infantry and a panzer corps sitting in a province, facing a single infantry division. I order my infantry corps to attack the enemy division and beat the crap out of them. Then I order my panzer corps to exploit. While on the move, my panzer corps gets counter attacked by what is left from that allready beaten infantry division (assuming the previous fight lasted long enough, this is possible; if not, replace the beaten ID by a weak fresh one (for example a 1 Infantry regiment + 1 Aromred car batallion). Of course my fresh panzer corps runs all over this enemy, but because of the delay, will now sit 170+ hours doing nothing, waiting for the delay to pass. Then it starts moving again and again will be attacked by what is, in effect, a weak regiment and again it will sit for 170+ hours.
A force of basicly 2 Infantry regiments (and after some fights, with probably about as much fighting power as 2 batallions) can keep my panzer corps pinned down infinitely by alternating attacking.

Now, I don´t think the AI is capable of doing this, but if you are into multiplayer, woha!

I agree, that breakthrough was usually accomplished by infantry forces, and exploitation was the thing for the armor, but I don´t remember that Rommels or Guderians forces sat around in France in 1940 for a week after beating back a counterattack because, well, for whatever reason.

I haven´t played a whole lot of HOI3 (a few hours, only) because I got frustrated with the stupid AI (diplomacy and stuff) so I might be missing something essential in my above example, but I doubt it, from what I read at Paradox´ forum.

As for AE, yeah, ground combat was allways weak with this one, but I can live with it (I am more interrested in the naval/air war anyway)
Playing Japan against the AI, I can not confirm much of a bonus, however. Got my ass handed to me in china for rushing things   :wink:
At sea, yeah, japan rules the waves for at least the first 6 months, but hey, that´s how it´s supposed to be. And even for the allied ai there are some silver linnen on the horizon (is this the correct phrase?) for example, when Boise singlehandedly clubbered one of my destroyer squadrons lead by a light cruiser

In the end, of course, you play whatever game suits you better.
Seems yours will be HOI3, while mine will be AE, so everyone is happy
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline Paul M

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • P
  • Posts: 1276
  • Thanked: 25 times
Re: HOI3?
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2009, 02:15:03 AM »
Unfortunately the sole purpose of the air/naval war is to enable ground combat at the time and place and with all possible advantages to your side.

The problem with WitP AE's ground combat I think stems from Grigsby.  It is the same system used in War in Russia, and Pacific War.  It has a tendancy to be vastly frustrating because of three things that I can see.  
1.  It isn't simultenous (which it should be)
2. the final odds modifications are too extreme, there is an AAR which adjusts the AV of the defenders from 60 to 1 for example.  Toning this down would go a long way to producing the sort of attritional combat the manual says characterised the conflict.  As it is now one shock attack and its over most of the time.
3.  The way damage is assigned makes not a lot of sense.  Far to many second line troops seem to be damaged.  Plus the amount of casaulties are far far too high for the shortness of the combat.  I wonder a bit if the same routine is used for the week long turns from PacWar though I am dubious it is that sort of goof.

The whole shock attack thing also makes no sense to me.  But ultimately this is much like combat in WiR as the Russians in the 41-42.  It is frustrating and rarely fun at all.  What annoys me more at the moment is a a single CVL with a tin can that sailed down the Java straight and hasn't gotten sunk so far.  15 bombers missed it.  It's twice now dodged 3 SAGs hunting it and that annoys me beyond belief. Though I'm trying to remember is the message was heading SW or if I got east and west mixed up...the only good news was 3 torpedoes hit the Akagi as she tried to raid Baikaphan.  And there is nothing wrong with the Dutch torpedoes.

On HoI3.  The diplomacy and espionage need a bit of work but at the moment they are something that unlike HoI2 you can't ignore.  Well not if you want to play Germany or Great Britian.  I think they need to look a lot more carefully at "drift" and such to make sure the neutrals are far more "neutral" then they are currently.  Switzerland should be pretty damn hard to get into any of the factions.  The USA should be neutral until basically attacked or something like England falls.  They have gone too much into making the game "sandboxy" to satisfy the people who want to play some wacky form of advanced risk in my view.

On the combat question I am not sure I don't misunderstand how it works.  If you used an infantry Corps to break the defenders then you should be able to send your armour and motorized divisions to several different provinces without delay and they will only run into trouble if there is a fight in the province they are headed to.  In that case you will have order delay but I don't see where that is an issue.  The only thing it seems to prevent is using your breakthru force to exploit which isn't historically accurate anyway.  I don't see this as a game destroying problem.  Engaging the enemy on the way to the target will only result in an orders delay when they arrive but it will be reduced by both the combat and travel times.  It doesn't so far as I know stop them from arriving at their targeted destination.  I would not read to much into the forum wailing and gnashing of teeth myself.  But I can't speak from experience as my Canada campaign ran into a supply bug and my USA one is still in early 39 so I am in the process of building up rather than actively doing things.

What is odd is that in both games China has actively thrown Japan out of the continent, including taking over Manchuko.

So I am actually playing AE, HOI3, and aurora.  I just have to restain myself from tearing what little hair I have left out over things like 1:1 combats being adjusted to 4:1.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

  • Aurora Designer
  • Star Marshal
  • S
  • Posts: 7910
  • Thanked: 4266 times
    • http://www.starfireassistant.com
Re: HOI3?
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2009, 09:28:14 AM »
I have held off on buying HOI3 due to hearing about a lot of bugs. I believe the v1.2 patch is now out so has that fixed most of the problems?

Steve
 

Offline Paul M

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • P
  • Posts: 1276
  • Thanked: 25 times
Re: HOI3?
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2009, 02:31:00 PM »
1.2 seems to have fixed a lot of the first run issues.  I think it is a big improvement in the sense that the AI will now research doctrines and a lot of the supply problems have been cured.  It also seems to have improved somewhat diplomacy and made a major change to officers.  There is a good 400 or so things in the change listing so it did a lot of good.  The wailing, winging and whining is still ongoing.  I think the game is very playable right now but clearly there are going to be some changes in a few months when 1.3 finally rolls around that will hopefully fix the map and a host of other stuff (balance issues etc) that may or may not be an issue.  I am very happy with the game and I like it.  If you are really worried about bugs and stuff I would say wait some months till 1.3 comes out, but currently I think it is quite playable.
 

 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55