Author Topic: Monarch class battleship of the Space Habsburg Empire  (Read 3368 times)

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Offline Hungaricus (OP)

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Re: Monarch class battleship of the Space Habsburg Empire
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2020, 08:41:47 AM »
Edit: Why should I drop the spinal laser?


It has terrible tracking speed compared to your turrets, terrible rate of fire compared to your turrets, and lousy weight (and space) efficiency compared to your particle lances.  And it doesn't match your particle lances for rate of fire.  The major benefit of a spinal weapon (longer range) is negated by your fire control.

It is the classic pre-dreadnought problem of every weapon on the ship wants to fight at different ranges, so unless your enemy divides & positions themselves at those ranges, portions of your armament are going to be at severe disadvantage.

Swapping the spinal laser for more laser turrets (large or small) or particle lances would give the ship a much more rational damage-range profile.  Having all your non-AA (point defense) weapons with a RoF of 20 or 50 makes salvo-matching far easier.  With the spinal at 45 seconds you may very well be 'wasting' its damage on shield recharging in a long-range fight.

Yeah. You convinced me. With some other tweaks here and there this is the Monarch B. Good thing about the 3 year building time is that you have time to tweak the design so the second ship would be better than the first :D . They can be build in the same shipyard without retool so I see this as an absolute win.

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Monarch B class Battleship      72,000 tons       1,934 Crew       18,769.1 BP       TCS 1,440    TH 8,294    EM 10,320
5760 km/s      Armour 12-154       Shields 344-537       HTK 686      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 117      PPV 1317.16
Maint Life 2.38 Years     MSP 17,286    AFR 728%    IFR 10.1%    1YR 4,171    5YR 62,568    Max Repair 1382.4 MSP
Magazine 1,160    Cryogenic Berths 200   
Kommodore    Control Rating 5   BRG   AUX   ENG   CIC   FLG   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Magneto-plasma Drive  EP2764.80 (3)    Power 8294.4    Fuel Use 16.63%    Signature 2764.8    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 2,005,000 Litres    Range 30.1 billion km (60 days at full power)
Epsilon S172 / R537 Shields (2)     Recharge Time 537 seconds (0.6 per second)

Triple 30cm C6 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (2x3)    Range 384,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 72-18     RM 60,000 km    ROF 20        24 24 24 24 24 24 20 18 16 14
Particle Lance-18 (5)    Range 384,000km     TS: 6,250 km/s     Power 55-6     RM 400,000 km    ROF 50        18 18 18 18 18 18 18 18 18 18
Quad 15.0cm  Laser Turret "Xiphos" (3x4)    Range 360,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 24-24     RM 60,000 km    ROF 5        6 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 4 3
Quad Gauss(0.17) Cannon Turret "Telamon-B" (21x20)    Range 40,000km     TS: 25000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Beam Fire Control R384-TS10000 (30%) (2)     Max Range: 384,000 km   TS: 10,000 km/s     97 95 92 90 87 84 82 79 77 74
Beam Fire Control R144-TS25000 (30%) (3)     Max Range: 144,000 km   TS: 25,000 km/s     93 86 79 72 65 58 51 44 38 31
Stellarator Fusion Reactor R26-PB30 (6)     Total Power Output 157.2    Exp 15%

Size 8.00 Box Launcher (120)     Missile Size: 8    Hangar Reload 141 minutes    MF Reload 23 hours
Size 1 Missile Launcher (20)     Missile Size: 1    Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC20-R1 (30%) (5)     Range 20.3m km    Resolution 1
Missile Fire Control FC94-R100 (30%) (8)     Range 94.3m km    Resolution 100
ASM-8B " Granit" (120)    Speed: 39,000 km/s    End: 16.4m     Range: 38.3m km    WH: 16    Size: 8    TH: 234/140/70
AMM-1A "Sarissa" (200)    Speed: 57,600 km/s    End: 0.8m     Range: 2.8m km    WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 614/368/184

Active Search Sensor AS210-R100 (30%) (1)     GPS 36000     Range 210.8m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor AS55-R1 (30%) (1)     GPS 540     Range 55.6m km    MCR 6.1m km    Resolution 1

ECCM-3 (5)         ECM 30

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

I also changed the PD defense. With better tracking turrets (Since the 85% on is a bit of a legacy one fro ma previous abandoned design.) and I changed to 17% gauss in quad turrets.  If a did the math right the raw hit count should be 68/80 for the 85% gauss and 71,4/420. For similar tonnage but with better tracking it should be superior to the 85% one and it has a small chance to overperform against old but numerous missiles.
I also added a second ECM just to be safe.
 

Offline Hungaricus (OP)

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Re: Monarch class battleship of the Space Habsburg Empire
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2020, 08:45:31 AM »
Spinal lasers of really large size is brutal and can cause massive damage through sheer chock if it does not outright tear through the armour. Combination of heavy hitters and fast firing high rate of fire lasers are very effective.

In this case though... since you also have particle lances I would agree that Spinal lasers don't make that much sense other than for the fun factor... if you have them then why not use them I say.

In terms of the launcher and smaller salvo size it really does not matter... instead of arriving to the battlefield with one Cruiser and a handful of escorts you arrive with two battle cruisers with no escorts as they bring their own defences anyway that way. Now you also have the option of choosing how many offensive and defensive missiles they carry and what types and you can change them in the field from long, medium or short range missiles and in which proportion of AMM versus ASM they carry at any time. It also is very easy to use excessive force with box launchers and then leave you open for a surprise counterattack from a hidden force.

In my opinion versatility is more important... you still would have the same throw weight... it is just a measure of how much do you value defence or offence. If you bring 4 cruisers with 120 missiles you have half the defensive capacity as if you bring 8 cruisers to do the same job. If you don't care about the defence and you find that it is good enough then all is well, that is the doctrine you set out to have, there are many example in our world where both have been successfully used.

My doctrine usually go by the metric that any battle-group must be able to handle an enemy at least three times it size in terms of missile defences using a layered defence strategy. If I ever intend to assault something the minimum battle doctrine dictate at least a 5:1 strength in my favour or the assault are deemed too risky as you can't ever know all the details.

According to this logic if you arrive with 8 ships with the same missile firepower for the same(ish) cost you can arrive with 8 ships with 2x the firepower and enough PD to handle the more defensive minded  fleet offensive missiles.

It's interesting to think about the possibilities. 2 defensive fleet cannot really hurt eachother with missiles 2 offensive fleet can hurt eachother pretty well. But in an offensive vs deffensive situation it's back to no real damage.

One thing to note here is that defense is much harder against missiles as offence in my opinion.
 

Offline Hungaricus (OP)

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Re: Monarch class battleship of the Space Habsburg Empire
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2020, 08:57:49 AM »
everybody loves a battleship, even the guys who would never build one.

lemme start with the controversial suggestion.  too much armor.  if you just gotta have passive defenses (hiss), plow half the tonnage back into shields.  lean into the big ship advantages, i say.

i have no problem with box launchers on big ships, insufficient throw weight will kill you just as dead as running out of ammo, right?  but his majesty here is kind of rocking the swiss army knife, and some specialized ammo (and the ability to load it...) fits the theme.

speaking of specialized, one of the real big ship advantages is specialized fire controls.  idk how much use you get out of a dozen MFCs for the offensive missiles, i think maybe a pair each in res4, 18 and 150, or thereabouts would do you more good, supposing you elect to go with more versatile missiles.  im kind of repetitive on this point, but specialized fighter-killing apparatus is more valuable (IMO) than specialized ship-killing apparatus.  it may take some persistence to kill an ogre with a rolled up newspaper, but nothing like having to kill a fly with a battleaxe.

back to controversial.   i think your offensive missile caliber is too large.  a half-granit seems to me to be an excellent munition; you're right at that RP endowment where cost-effectiveness against AMMs becomes a real consideration.

having one of everything, or hell, two, is part of the charm, but i feel the 15s are the best of your lasers.  they make nice secondary weapons for the lances at longer ranges, and one notes you shelled out for range on your gauss guns, so THEY back up your 15s in a knife fight.

It's have some capacity like what you are talking about. The AMM fire controls have 20mkm range so its so-so useful against fighters. Against beam armed small crafts perfect but against missile armed a bit short ranged.

I find size 8 ASM is a necessary evil. I want to have a missile with small-medium range, good damage and good hit chance that's all and well I can use a size 6 for that. The issue is you really do need ECM and ECCM which is 0,5 MSP together. That's why I need the size 8 and to have a 16 str warhead.

Edit: Yeah I invested heavily in gauss range. According to my logic if it's not bigger then why shouln't I need it? With 40k range it can be useful in some situation every 5sec ~100 hit is pretty brutal.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 08:59:50 AM by MarcellHUN »
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Monarch class battleship of the Space Habsburg Empire
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2020, 12:20:06 PM »
Spinal lasers of really large size is brutal and can cause massive damage through sheer chock if it does not outright tear through the armour. Combination of heavy hitters and fast firing high rate of fire lasers are very effective.

In this case though... since you also have particle lances I would agree that Spinal lasers don't make that much sense other than for the fun factor... if you have them then why not use them I say.

In terms of the launcher and smaller salvo size it really does not matter... instead of arriving to the battlefield with one Cruiser and a handful of escorts you arrive with two battle cruisers with no escorts as they bring their own defences anyway that way. Now you also have the option of choosing how many offensive and defensive missiles they carry and what types and you can change them in the field from long, medium or short range missiles and in which proportion of AMM versus ASM they carry at any time. It also is very easy to use excessive force with box launchers and then leave you open for a surprise counterattack from a hidden force.

In my opinion versatility is more important... you still would have the same throw weight... it is just a measure of how much do you value defence or offence. If you bring 4 cruisers with 120 missiles you have half the defensive capacity as if you bring 8 cruisers to do the same job. If you don't care about the defence and you find that it is good enough then all is well, that is the doctrine you set out to have, there are many example in our world where both have been successfully used.

My doctrine usually go by the metric that any battle-group must be able to handle an enemy at least three times it size in terms of missile defences using a layered defence strategy. If I ever intend to assault something the minimum battle doctrine dictate at least a 5:1 strength in my favour or the assault are deemed too risky as you can't ever know all the details.

According to this logic if you arrive with 8 ships with the same missile firepower for the same(ish) cost you can arrive with 8 ships with 2x the firepower and enough PD to handle the more defensive minded  fleet offensive missiles.

It's interesting to think about the possibilities. 2 defensive fleet cannot really hurt eachother with missiles 2 offensive fleet can hurt eachother pretty well. But in an offensive vs deffensive situation it's back to no real damage.

One thing to note here is that defense is much harder against missiles as offence in my opinion.

You waste allot less resources on defences against missiles if you can defend against them. It's only if the defences get overwhelmed that you don't.

I also take the option of no one doing damage over both killing each other... the problem with the latter is that it can easily be one fleet that obliterate the other because of some outside or random fluke. It is not the most sound doctrine in my opinion to rely on luck if you can avoid it.

I usually consider at least an expected 3-5:1 is realistic as that give allot of leeway for misjudgement or bad luck if I go on the offensive. If I can't bring overwhelming force I would rarely bother in the first place.

Glass canon tactic in Aurora can become very expensive... at least if you can defend you usually expend less resources than the other side did.

The other thing is versatility, being able to bring more or less AMM versus ASM or different types of ASM... those things are stuff you can't put a price on that is VERY important in practice but rarely in theory.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 12:25:24 PM by Jorgen_CAB »