NPR Fire Decisions

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

NPR Fire Decision Time

In v2.5.1, NPRs can detect and fire on a hostile ship in the same increment, as the Fire Decision event occurs later in the turn than the Detection event. This makes player jump point assaults against NPRs more dangerous than against other players.

This 'fire-on-transit' option is not available to players unless they already have weapons targeted on an hostile ship and the order to fire is already given, before it transits. This will generally only happen when the defenders detected the approach on the far side, achieved a lock, assigned a target, set their ship to open fire and then retreated through the jump point and awaited a transit.

The latter is something that only a player can do effectively (too complex a decision process for NPRs) and the former is the NPR being given an unfair mechanics advantage due to their decision-making being embedded mid-increment.

So I am wondering whether to leave it alone, and leave NPRs and players with different advantages, or try to level the player field by not allowing ships to fire on a contact that was first detected in the same impulse and also by removing fire control targets when a ship transits.

Any comments or suggestions?

[skoormit]

I would suggest a different flavor of leveling the playing field.
1) Take away what the player can do now (i.e. remove fc targets upon transit).
2) Augment the Fire At Will option by allowing ships to target and fire upon contacts initially detected in the same increment/impulse.

That way players can defend JPs in the same way that NPRs can.

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

I would suggest a different flavor of leveling the playing field.
1) Take away what the player can do now (i.e. remove fc targets upon transit).
2) Augment the Fire At Will option by allowing ships to target and fire upon contacts initially detected in the same increment/impulse.

That way players can defend JPs in the same way that NPRs can.

So create a new firing mode (probably at firing control level) that is 'Fire at Will when hostiles detected in range'?

BTW in v2.6.0, this won't just affect jump point transits but also the appearance of Enhanced Precursors.

[nuclearslurpee]

or try to level the player field by not allowing ships to fire on a contact that was first detected in the same impulse and also by removing fire control targets when a ship transits.

This is the way I would go. IMO, the practice of lining up targets and jumping to the other side is very gamey. Meanwhile, it is not as if the player needs more help to defeat the NPRs on a tactical level. I think it would further make sense to remove fire control targets when they can no longer be detected (which excludes waypoints, etc. that can alway be detected and targeted).

The current NPR ability to fire at player ships on transit could also be considered gamey, but IMO it makes sense as an outcome of the rules (specifically turn order) and the NPRs really do need the help. I think this is fine left as-is, since it is not as if the NPRs are deliberately trying to exploit corner cases of the rules for their unfair advantage. 

[lumporr]

I would suggest a different flavor of leveling the playing field.
1) Take away what the player can do now (i.e. remove fc targets upon transit).
2) Augment the Fire At Will option by allowing ships to target and fire upon contacts initially detected in the same increment/impulse.

That way players can defend JPs in the same way that NPRs can.

So create a new firing mode (probably at firing control level) that is 'Fire at Will when hostiles detected in range'?

BTW in v2.6.0, this won't just affect jump point transits but also the appearance of Enhanced Precursors.

I am also for the removal of the player pre-targeting ability, and I also think a "fire at will when in range" setting might also be nice for situations with large fleets or fighter squadrons where you're whittling down enemy forces and keep having to find the ships with destroyed targets and manually retargeting them.

[Tuna-Fish]

So create a new firing mode (probably at firing control level) that is 'Fire at Will when hostiles detected in range'?

Why would the current Fire at Will behavior need to remain available? When would you want to use it instead of the other option?

[skoormit]

So create a new firing mode (probably at firing control level) that is 'Fire at Will when hostiles detected in range'?

Probably more straightforward just to change the current Fire at Will implementation such that the random target assignment happens immediately before weapons fire (i.e. after detection of new contacts).

[Zap0]

I don't have particularly strong feelings one way or the other. The mechanics being the same for player and NPR seems best for consistency, understanding and perceived fairness.

I'd keep it simple with clearing locks and open fire status on jump and only allowing fire after detection.

[DNAturation]

NPR Fire Decision Time

This makes player jump point assaults against NPRs more dangerous than against other players.

Did I miss a multiplayer update somewhere?

[nuclearslurpee]

NPR Fire Decision Time

This makes player jump point assaults against NPRs more dangerous than against other players.

Did I miss a multiplayer update somewhere?

No, but it has always been possible to play a game with multiple player races which might engage in combat against each other.

[Bremen]

I like the idea of having targets cleared on transit, but making the current fire at will mode fire on targets that appeared this increment. Making it basically "finger on the button" mode.

[Ghostly]

I definitely recommend disposing of the cross-system targeting, making it so only targets in the same system as the ship itself could get and/or stay assigned (as opposed to JP transits clearing them). My reasoning: I've been annoyed before by ships trying to fire at STO's that they defeated in the last engagement months ago and light years away, and JP transit target removal would help with that. But I also remember screwing up a couple of times by using the "Assign All" button in missile combat and having ships of the same class all across my empire fire their ordnance into the abyss. I don't recall the specifics, this might've happened when I was using waypoint-fired missiles, but there's still no practical reason why "Assign All" should copy targets to every single vessel in the class, no matter where it is. Not to mention that it could be used to bypass the JP target removal, were it introduced, and still make the pre-targeting exploit possible.

As for the same-increment fire, I was going to suggest removing it as well, as a JP assault is a terribly dangerous gamble and NPRs' ability to fire instantly exacerbates it further. Since max squad jump distance is randomized, getting a bad roll is the difference between sustaining some light shield damage or getting half your fleet annihilated with nothing you could do about it - not even a chance to make some distance within those 5 seconds (during which the NPR would likely try to run away too, as it often does when faced with superior tonnage, without considering complications such as jump shock - perhaps it should factor such things in).

However, the proposed change to "Fire at Will" by making it automatically acquire targets (definitely no need for a separate command) actually sounds great to me for another reason - it would greatly assist in those mop-up phases of a beam fight when the enemy is on the run and the main challenge lies in the tedium of assigning new targets as old ones get destroyed all while keeping them in your FC range. I would absolutely love an auto-targeting Fire at Will command for such occasions, even if it means it's also available for both the player and the AI for jump-point defense! Just need to make sure it doesn't cause interrupts and can't be actually used for jump-point offense, as there's currently some very weird interactions with Fire at Will and jump shock

And if you were inclined to make jump assaults less of a gamble, why not allow us to set the minimum jump distance through the corresponding text field in the Naval window? It would sure make JP-adjacent combat feel a lot more consistent!

[Kurt]

I don't like the NPR's being able to do something I cannot do.  It feels wrong and gamey.  BUT, NPR's generally do need help against players.  So, in the end, a mixed neutral recommendation for me, unfortunately. 

[Kaiser]

Same as Kurt, I am not super skilled in Aurora so I did not get very well what's the problem here, but I would like to have a system where none of the two (NPR and human player) have advantages/disavantages over the other; it is better to have predictable but fair rules for both rather than having NPR able to do things I cannot do.