Author Topic: Wealth Generation  (Read 4776 times)

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Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Wealth Generation
« Reply #75 on: January 30, 2019, 12:06:33 PM »
if wealth would be changed to "power" -that's completly ignoring the upkeep "costs" of military units (especially groudn units) in wealth ... I am afraid that this aspect of wealth is completly forgotten in the discussion at the moment as I am only reading about "installation A costs xy wealth, installation B brings YZ wealth"...

"power" would cover the installation aspect (and part research costs) but not the upkeep costs of the military and the rest of research costs... so I would at least let some kind of "wealth" in the game as it is - even if the "power" idea has some points to it...

Yes, very good point. I might look at power at some point as an interesting addition, but I think I have to stay with wealth because removing it would cause a lot more problems than it solved.
 

Offline Iceranger

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Re: Wealth Generation
« Reply #76 on: January 30, 2019, 12:39:02 PM »
It looks to me with your proposed wealth model (minus the civ shippping), changing 'wealth' to 'energy' and 'financial center' to 'power plant', it will almost work flawlessly as the energy system. :)

Except workers producing 'energy' doesn't really make sense compared to producing taxes. If I went down the power route, it would not be based on number of people.

if wealth would be changed to "power" -that's completly ignoring the upkeep "costs" of military units (especially groudn units) in wealth ... I am afraid that this aspect of wealth is completly forgotten in the discussion at the moment as I am only reading about "installation A costs xy wealth, installation B brings YZ wealth"...

"power" would cover the installation aspect (and part research costs) but not the upkeep costs of the military and the rest of research costs... so I would at least let some kind of "wealth" in the game as it is - even if the "power" idea has some points to it...

Yes, very good point. I might look at power at some point as an interesting addition, but I think I have to stay with wealth because removing it would cause a lot more problems than it solved.

Since each installation has fixed amount of workers, instead of saying '50k workers in that financial center generate 3x tax', it can be interpreted as 'that power plant generates 3x energy needs 50k workers'. Better economic techs can be translated to more efficient power plants, generating more power with the same amount of workers. Similarly, factories consume energy to produce, instead of consume wealth to produce and give back a bit as tax.

For unit upkeep, consuming energy to maintain units isn't totally unreasonable. This can represent the energy needed to maintain/train/house those ground units.

Actually, except for the 'energy' system does not count for civ shipping income, and that we don't store years worth of 'energy' like we can for wealth, the proposed wealth system already resembles an energy system if you interpret the abstract 'wealth' as 'energy'. So IMHO adding another 'energy' system in parallel to that sounds questionable.
 

Offline Happerry

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Re: Wealth Generation
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2019, 12:56:53 PM »
Maybe money could literally be energy like Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri had it?

Though personally I think the new money system as suggested originally would probably work ok.
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: Wealth Generation
« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2019, 01:05:12 PM »
I really like the idea of including electrical power as something the player has to consider, for a couple of reasons.  First, it provides an excuse to build big things in deep space; think Dyson Spheres and power beaming stations.

Second, you could include waste heat as a worry as well; electricity use on an transnewtonian industrial scale will heat the planet up.  This is true even excluding fossil fuel use.  Run too much industry and you cook your planet.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Wealth Generation
« Reply #79 on: January 30, 2019, 01:19:31 PM »
I really like the idea of including electrical power as something the player has to consider, for a couple of reasons.  First, it provides an excuse to build big things in deep space; think Dyson Spheres and power beaming stations.

Second, you could include waste heat as a worry as well; electricity use on an transnewtonian industrial scale will heat the planet up.  This is true even excluding fossil fuel use.  Run too much industry and you cook your planet.

Yes, I also like the idea of power generation being a consideration. It's something I have considered a few times in the past but never actually got around to it. I don't think it replaces wealth for the reasons mentioned earlier in the thread, but I do think it would be an interesting addition to the game (alongside wealth).
 

Offline Scandinavian

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Re: Wealth Generation
« Reply #80 on: January 30, 2019, 02:13:59 PM »
I would suggest (in addition to the changes being contemplated here to solve the "India problem") imposing a negative interest on Wealth balances (both positive and negative, but more negative on positive balances).

An economy can only reasonably "save up" so much productive capacity before it begins going to waste - people do not keep building inventory that is not consumed; eventually they curtail production. And not-producing today does not increase your factory's ability to produce tomorrow; that potential production is simply lost. While it is possible to accumulate reserves of real capital, this too has its limits: Skills that go unused decay, capital stock becomes obsolete, and the institutions needed to run complex industrial supply chains dissolve if they are not occasionally exercised.

Similarly, on the other end, if you overclock your economy for long enough, it becomes the new normal. Workers write off the vacation they have accrued from working overtime, preventative maintenance backlogs on capital equipment is erased when the equipment breaks and is replaced, on-the-job training replaces formal education, etc.

This also imposes a soft wealth cap: If positive balances attrition at ten per cent per year, then an economy that "saves up" a quarter of its "income" would converge on a reserve that would allow it to double its production for three years without incurring any penalties (all else being equal). Which seems reasonable.
 

Offline Conscript Gary

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Re: Wealth Generation
« Reply #81 on: January 30, 2019, 06:06:07 PM »
The fact that unused-but-still-employed workers still generate wealth makes the changes work, I think.
Now factories and the other similar installations operate the same way civilian mining complexes do:
Either you leave them idle, and their output is abstracted away into the civilian economy while you get wealth from it,
Or you make direct use of their output, paying for it in the process.
Thinking of it in those terms helps it make a bit more sense, I think.
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Wealth Generation
« Reply #82 on: January 30, 2019, 10:11:56 PM »
Since financial centers are effectively just giving work to civilians at this point, can they be called 'civilian industry' or something instead?

Also, relating to the power generation, that could lead to something really cool: Your civilization needing sorium continuously or some other such material  to generate power and keep the industry running.  Sure you could use solar power, but that couldn't even begin to hold a candle to the power of TN nuclear or fusion reactors.  Minding, solar is just a kindof cruddy way to harness the power of a giant fusion reaction.

e: You wouldn't necessarily need civilizations to be total gas guzzlers, but some significant consumption of fuel could be a fun mechanic and a strong reason to compete for big resource deposits.  You can potentially ignore a lack of mineral income for a long time, not so if a mineral is literally neccessary to continue existing.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 10:15:18 PM by QuakeIV »
 

Offline King-Salomon

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Re: Wealth Generation
« Reply #83 on: January 31, 2019, 03:52:39 AM »
I am trying to find a reason now to create colonies at system body's that will never be industrialised as the population there has now zero impact...

especially if the population will forever be too small to generate trade goods..

so the colony would only "use up" space in the menues without benefit...

somebody an idea that I might be missing?  ???
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Wealth Generation
« Reply #84 on: January 31, 2019, 04:21:55 AM »
I am trying to find a reason now to create colonies at system body's that will never be industrialised as the population there has now zero impact...

especially if the population will forever be too small to generate trade goods..

so the colony would only "use up" space in the menues without benefit...

somebody an idea that I might be missing?  ???

Quite small populations generate trade and wealth through colonization, which is important with the increase in trade tax income. Also, because you can't shutdown sectors of industry, you need to maximize pop growth and the size of the manufacturing sector or you will not be able to expand industry. This is even more important now the worker requirements for shipyards and GFCC are significantly higher. Both of these are boosted by multiple small populations, as small pops grow faster and have larger (in percentage terms) manufacturing sectors.

For example, if Mars had no minerals, it would still be a long-term benefit to colonise Mars rather than leave the population on Earth.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Wealth Generation
« Reply #85 on: January 31, 2019, 05:14:40 AM »
Since financial centers are effectively just giving work to civilians at this point, can they be called 'civilian industry' or something instead?

I don't think putting "Industry" in the name would be a good thing since it would be quite confusing seeing how many other types of industry Aurora 4X already has.

One potential thing that could be done is to call it "Financial and Trade Center" instead, and have them also boost / linked to trade goods production, while trade goods demand can be controlled by Population. That way a Financial Center also generates more trade opportunities.
 

Offline TCD

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Re: Wealth Generation
« Reply #86 on: January 31, 2019, 01:48:54 PM »
I am trying to find a reason now to create colonies at system body's that will never be industrialised as the population there has now zero impact...

especially if the population will forever be too small to generate trade goods..

so the colony would only "use up" space in the menues without benefit...

somebody an idea that I might be missing?  ???
Is there a particular reason why you think that tiny colonies with no industrial or mining potential should be built? I mean if you want a RP reason then we could probably come up with some for you (religious zealots would be the obvious one).

But I'm not sure why the game should reward adding purposeless colonies to every moon in Sol. Even on earth colonies have been resource sinks as often as they have been beneficial.
 

Offline King-Salomon

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Re: Wealth Generation
« Reply #87 on: January 31, 2019, 03:11:16 PM »
Is there a particular reason why you think that tiny colonies with no industrial or mining potential should be built? I mean if you want a RP reason then we could probably come up with some for you (religious zealots would be the obvious one).

But I'm not sure why the game should reward adding purposeless colonies to every moon in Sol. Even on earth colonies have been resource sinks as often as they have been beneficial.

Yes, Steve invested a lot of work to make small body's easier to colonize - even Comets are now habitable ... if it does not make any kind of sense to colonize this body's it was just time and work wasted...

it is not that I WANT to colonize every dustball but now that Steve has make it easier and more likely it would be a shame if it would never be used at all...

if small colonies (50.000 pop max on a comet) are still worthwhile it is ok...
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Wealth Generation
« Reply #88 on: January 31, 2019, 03:22:13 PM »
Yes, Steve invested a lot of work to make small body's easier to colonize - even Comets are now habitable ... if it does not make any kind of sense to colonize this body's it was just time and work wasted...

it is not that I WANT to colonize every dustball but now that Steve has make it easier and more likely it would be a shame if it would never be used at all...

if small colonies (50.000 pop max on a comet) are still worthwhile it is ok...

My intention was to provide more options rather than to encourage a lot of minor colonies. If a system has an asteroid belt in the habitable zone, you could end up with a couple of hundred colony cost 2.00 LG bodies.
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Wealth Generation
« Reply #89 on: January 31, 2019, 04:20:24 PM »
Ah, the Octopus Empire's fabled Ring system, with its five asteroid belts and many billions of population.  What a great tragedy it was to cephalo-kind that dark day when the enemies came. . .

Remember the Ring!
 
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