Author Topic: Cold War Comments Thread  (Read 9108 times)

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Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #210 on: October 05, 2020, 11:22:24 AM »
Do the humans have any forewarning of the Rehorish advance, are there any scouts or forward units out in that direction?

Also what made the Rehorish think that they would find a link to human space, in Aurora that would be incredibly unlikely? Are warp point destinations chosen differently in Starfire or was this done in service of the narrative?

Yes, the Coalition has scouts out that will detect the Rehorish before they reach the Moskva system.  Fortunately. 

The Rehorish were contacted by the Russians, originally, so it was reasonable to assume that they would be able to find their way back to the Human home world from that contact point.  They failed to consider that there might be closed warp points in the way.  Actually, I failed to consider that, and once it became clear that it would be a problem because there were closed warp points in the way, I decided that Rehorish arrogance and distrust of the D'Bringi had led them to use this approach. 

Basically, in pre-war planning, the Rehorish and the D'Bringi had two choices.  The first option was to join their fleet together and attack the Russians either at the point of contact in Rehorish space, or in D'Bringi space.  Going this way had the advantage that their forces would be combined from the first.  However, that would require one or the other to give warp line information to the other so that their fleets could join up.  Neither really wanted to do that as they didn't fully trust each other.  So they went with the second choice, which was to launch separate attacks, throwing the Soviets off balance, and conquering as much territory as possible before reaching Moskva and joining up.  That would have worked nicely, too, if it wasn't for the closed warp point linking the Russian colonial territories to the human inner systems.  That stalled the Rehorish for quite some time before the D'Bringi found the intelligence on warp links that led to the Russian colonial territory and sent a scout to probe the links.   

Kurt
 

Online Andrew

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #211 on: October 10, 2020, 07:39:44 PM »
So the D'Bringi are totally screwed. The war against humanity was on a knife edge for them and the new problem with the Mintek mean they cannot afford to fight the war with the humans. If they are lucky their fleet facing the humans will still be dancing around when they realise they need to recall it. I believe they can hide behing close WP from the humans giving them a chance to break contact, which leaves the Rehorish in deep trouble fighting the humans without their allies
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #212 on: October 11, 2020, 08:52:07 AM »
So the D'Bringi are totally screwed. The war against humanity was on a knife edge for them and the new problem with the Mintek mean they cannot afford to fight the war with the humans. If they are lucky their fleet facing the humans will still be dancing around when they realise they need to recall it. I believe they can hide behing close WP from the humans giving them a chance to break contact, which leaves the Rehorish in deep trouble fighting the humans without their allies

Basically, you've got it right, although the Rehorish are in immediate trouble with the Mintek as well.  After all, the Mintek know where their main colony system is, and they've had the temerity to detain Mintek Seekers. 
 

Online TheTalkingMeowth

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #213 on: October 11, 2020, 11:47:54 AM »
The Mintek have SDs while everyone else is futzing around with small numbers of BCs? How much of a tech and capacity advantage does that represent? Also, the D'Bringi thought they had an economic advantage over the Mintek...how is can the Mintek afford SDs on such a comparatively small budget?

I don't actually know anything about Starfire rules (just what I picked up from the thread and reading the Weber books), so maybe I'm misunderstanding how big of a deal SDs are.
 

Online Andrew

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #214 on: October 11, 2020, 01:21:04 PM »
It looks like they have a decent economy but we don't know how many SD's and BC's. The tech advantage is uncertain they could have SD's as a wildcard but otherwise they have a solid tech advantage. I believe the Russians have a BB under construction and most people are TL5-6 while the Mintek are probably TL-7 which gives them a pretty solid advantage in missile duels with some form of ECM and I think datalinked point defense.
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #215 on: October 11, 2020, 03:45:55 PM »
The Mintek have SDs while everyone else is futzing around with small numbers of BCs? How much of a tech and capacity advantage does that represent? Also, the D'Bringi thought they had an economic advantage over the Mintek...how is can the Mintek afford SDs on such a comparatively small budget?

I don't actually know anything about Starfire rules (just what I picked up from the thread and reading the Weber books), so maybe I'm misunderstanding how big of a deal SDs are.

They are a leap in capability, for sure, but they aren't everything.  SD's are big and tough, but they are slower than cruisers and can be overwhelmed by numbers.  And, just how tough they are depends on their armament, which is unknown at this time.  It also means that the Mintek are at least HT 7, which means some nifty goodies likes anti-drive missiles, data-linked point defense, and engine tuners (faster, at a price and with limitations). 

And as for the economy, the trade rules can lead to some misleading situations, on both sides.  For example, the Mintek's reported internal income is larger than the D'Bringi internal income by almost 70%, which is alarming.  However, while that is substantial, it is also misleading.  The trade rules base the trade on the two race's monthly production.  Not income from any other source.  When you add in income from the three conquered races, trade from the Rehorish and the T'Pau, and the monthly tribute payments from the T'Pau, then the D'Bringi income was actually higher than the Mintek's income.  This may end up surprising the Mintek, who have reason to believe that the D'Bringi are considerably weaker than they are economically.  As for the D'Bringi, they believe that the Mintek are behind them in technology.  This is largely because they are arrogant, but also because everyone they have met to date are behind or equal to their tech.  They know that the Mintek have three habitable planets in their home system, and that two of them have very large populations, and they believe that that is the source of the Mintek income, rather than the fact that they are ahead in tech. 

And, of course, the D'Bringi have the Rehorish on their side too.  Possibly.  Maybe.

Kurt
 

Offline Migi

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #216 on: October 13, 2020, 11:16:36 AM »
I'm guessing the drives detected by the Rehorish were the freighters used to drop off the DSB-L's? (What does DSB-L stand for precisely?)
Does Starfire have rules for time delay on messages or are you just RPing it?
Due to the time delay for messages I assume there is no way for the D'Bringi to jump through at the same time the Rehorish arrive at the warp point? And conversely if the D'Bringi want to signal to the Rehorish that they need to pull the D'Bringi fleet back home, they don't really have a way of doing so?
The humans have a good idea of where the Rehorish fleet is, can they get their faster units to engage the forward destroyers with missiles and get an early advantage?
How does Starfire assign speeds per class, do the battlecruisers in the human fleet slow them down?
In Aurora due to the cumulative research cost of engines (ie more engine types need research) there is a fairly strong incentive to use a single engine for your whole fleet, so everything tends to go at the same speeds unless you are specifically designing them for independent roles.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 11:18:26 AM by Migi »
 

Online Andrew

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #217 on: October 13, 2020, 12:26:00 PM »
Deep Space Bouy- Laser.   One shot laser bouys doing more damage than normal lasers, you get a varietly of other DSB's later including beam buoys which recharge.
Corvettes and smaller have speed 8, Destroyers 7 , Battlecruisers and up 6, Battleships and SD's 5 and larger ships 4. This assumes military engines and ships cruise at half speed as sustained travel at max speed burns out engines. The Rehorish scout DD have long range sensors so they won't fight against Human ships without an advantage as they can fall back on the main fleet before anything larger than a Corvette can close the range. Engines work nothing like Aurora I am afraid.

You can build warships with commercial engines but they are larger and don't allow the sprint speed but can allow faster strategic speeds, the price for which is the enemy can always pick the range in battle
 
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Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #218 on: October 13, 2020, 05:27:12 PM »
I'm guessing the drives detected by the Rehorish were the freighters used to drop off the DSB-L's? (What does DSB-L stand for precisely?)
Does Starfire have rules for time delay on messages or are you just RPing it?
Due to the time delay for messages I assume there is no way for the D'Bringi to jump through at the same time the Rehorish arrive at the warp point? And conversely if the D'Bringi want to signal to the Rehorish that they need to pull the D'Bringi fleet back home, they don't really have a way of doing so?
The humans have a good idea of where the Rehorish fleet is, can they get their faster units to engage the forward destroyers with missiles and get an early advantage?
How does Starfire assign speeds per class, do the battlecruisers in the human fleet slow them down?
In Aurora due to the cumulative research cost of engines (ie more engine types need research) there is a fairly strong incentive to use a single engine for your whole fleet, so everything tends to go at the same speeds unless you are specifically designing them for independent roles.

Andrew already answered most of your questions capably, so I'll just address the one thing that I can answer that he didn't.  The Starfire rules cover transmission times for messages traveling across an empire, in regard to the establishment of an Imperial Communications Network (ICN), but not really on a tactical or system scale.  It can be a pain in the ass, but I'm trying to stick to light speed limitations in terms of comms. I can't say I've always been successful, but I'm trying. 
 
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Offline Gyrfalcon

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #219 on: October 16, 2020, 01:26:13 AM »
And the bad times continue to roll for the humans. They're only hope is to jump to the other side of a warp point and try to stage an ambush.

What are the chances that the Rehorish and D'Bringi call it good and block off the jump point from their end with super heavy minefields and dedicated weapons platforms?
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #220 on: October 16, 2020, 10:12:29 AM »
And the bad times continue to roll for the humans. They're only hope is to jump to the other side of a warp point and try to stage an ambush.

What are the chances that the Rehorish and D'Bringi call it good and block off the jump point from their end with super heavy minefields and dedicated weapons platforms?

Their original goal was to break into the Solar System and conquer Earth.  Earth, with its very large population, is the prize they both want.  However, it is becoming increasingly clear to me that the limitations I have placed on this game are having some unexpected effects.  I have reduced population growth, the rate of tech advancement, and shipyard construction speeds.  This has reduced the rate of increase of fleet sizes and forced caution on the races, because heavy losses are hard to replace.  I expected that.  However, most of the races in the game started with fortifications in their home system but no where else, and since fortifications, and the capability to build them outside your home system, are time consuming to build, that hasn't changed for the most part.  The result is that most race's home systems are fortified, and given their reluctance to suffer serious losses, there is a natural reluctance to initiate an assault into a warp point known to be relatively heavily defended.  This kind of naturally results in a situation exactly like the D'Bringi-Human war, where the allied alien races rampage throughout the human's colonial areas, but are reluctant to attack the human's home system.  I suspect that should the situation be reversed, and the humans manage to reach the D'Bringi home system, that they will be in a similar situation. 

It should be noted that the decrease in pop growth also means that the home systems still produce the lion's share of the race's income even though it is turn 115.  For example, the USSR's current income is approximately 55% that of the Coalition, which sounds bad, but when you remember that they have been effectively reduced to the Solar System, they aren't that bad off.  Over time it would be disastrous, of course, but for the short term they can rebuild and come back with an income like that, especially when their enemies are at the end of a long supply line.  All of the races in the game are like that, with their home systems producing 50-75% of their total income.  No race in the game has a colony with over 250 PU's.  For those that don't know, a medium population of 400 or more population units is considered necessary to do all sorts of things.  Anything smaller than that is considered a small population and is limited in the actions it can take. 

The upshot is, the alien alliance want the Solar System badly, but committing to an assault against suspected heavy defenses is a big move, and they will certainly suffer serious losses.  Such a move has to be approved by the home world by both major allies.  In the alternative, cutting off the human's home world is certainly an option, however, it will take time to prefab fixed defenses and get mobile construction units to the Duril system to begin emplacing them. 

This war has exposed weaknesses on all sides.  Those that survive will be moving to remedy those weaknesses.  Dedicated assault ships, and minesweepers, will be a big priority.  Empire-wide communications networks as well, along with repair ships that can support the mobile fleets.  The ability to place fortifications in forward positions, as needed.  All of the pre-war fleets focused solely on building warships and ignored all of that stuff. 

Kurt

 

Offline Gyrfalcon

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #221 on: October 16, 2020, 12:47:33 PM »
> (DEC)/Lx

I’m imagining a bunch of Soviet ship planners, drunk out of their skulls one night coming up with the idea of installing bomb-pumped lasers on a ship to bring them close enough to the xenos scum to be useful.

Imagine their horror when they find out next morning that they submitted a design, and high command approved it.
 

Offline Black

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #222 on: October 17, 2020, 03:24:24 PM »
There will be nothing left of human fleet when they reach Sol, this does not look good for humans. Maybe Minteks can prevent D'Bringi from assaulting the Sol by their own offensive into D'Bringi territory. But in the long run that will mean that humans will have to deal with them as well.
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #223 on: October 18, 2020, 09:17:25 AM »
There will be nothing left of human fleet when they reach Sol, this does not look good for humans. Maybe Minteks can prevent D'Bringi from assaulting the Sol by their own offensive into D'Bringi territory. But in the long run that will mean that humans will have to deal with them as well.

It's not quite as bad as that for the human fleet.  The losses are galling, though.  Facing the combined D'Bringi-Rehorish fleets was worse, though.  That was exactly the situation the Russians found themselves in early in the war, facing fleets that out-massed them, doing well initially, but then suffering disproportionate losses as the battle progressed.  This close to Sol the humans can't afford to suffer significant losses, they don't have territory to trade for time anymore. 

The Minteks are a problem for everyone, but, of course, not everyone will realize that.  At first. 

Kurt
 

 

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