Railgun Battleship - enough MSP?

[CharonJr (OP)]

2 barrels for each turret for the Bismarck

[Zincat]

First, regarding my last night's post: sorry it was very late and I completely messed up   
What I meant to write was that you do not want long overhauls because keeping a ship fielded for a long time, and then making a long overhaul, means you spent a lot of MSP in field repairs also. My brain wasn't working well it seems, so I somehow wrote it as the overhaul being more costly by itself. Entirely my fault 

Now, the new design looks much better. Less fuel consumption, faster speed also means better tracking speed, more MSP.
I still don't like the annual failure rate if you plan for any extended deployment time. This ship will have an average of 18 failures every year...
I don't know, maybe it's just my personal preference. If you plan to only field it for short periods at a time, it's ok. It just feels very... prone to problems,unreliable, which is not something I personally want for a high investment ship of this size.

Also one more thing, a front line beam warship of this size with only 23 DCR is... not optimal. All warships in general, and beam warships even more so, HAVE to plan for the possibility of taking damage, so I prefer a much higher DCR for something of this size. Which is one good reason to add more engineering spaces anyway. Or a damage control module. Once again, my personal preference. But considering the investment needed for this ship, I feel it's warranted. I just can't see a ship like this as expendable...

[skoormit]

One error - twice the one year expected MSP expenditure is not equal to the two-year maintenance expenditure. As you run up the clock failure rates snowball. Note that the 5 year projection is a lot more than 5 times the 1 year projection. I don't know exactly how that math runs though.

The AFR in year X is equal to X times the AFR in year 1.

Therefore, the estimated MSP usage through year X is equal to the MSP usage in year 1 times the sum of the integers from 1 to X.
For example, the MSP usage through year 5 =
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 = 15 times the MSP usage in year 1.

You can verify this relationship by observing the reported 1YR and 5YR MSP usage for any ship design.
Your battleships in this thread:
1YR 2 952    5YR 44 274
44,274 % 2,952 = 14.998.

1YR 1 262    5YR 18 929
18,929 % 1,262 = 14.999.

Keep in mind, these are only estimates.
They assume that your luck on the failure checks and on the DAC roll will be average.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Also one more thing, a front line beam warship of this size with only 23 DCR is... not optimal. All warships in general, and beam warships even more so, HAVE to plan for the possibility of taking damage, so I prefer a much higher DCR for something of this size. Which is one good reason to add more engineering spaces anyway. Or a damage control module. Once again, my personal preference. But considering the investment needed for this ship, I feel it's warranted. I just can't see a ship like this as expendable...

As I explained above you need to expect large ships to have a very high annual failure rate as they only roll once every five day cycle... if you instead have ten 7200t ships rather than one 72000t ship you will see that on average they fail roughly on equal terms... you just roll ten times with a smaller chance for the smaller ships. Smaller ships usually also have cheaper components so become cheaper to maintain because of that too too some degree.

[Zincat]

Also one more thing, a front line beam warship of this size with only 23 DCR is... not optimal. All warships in general, and beam warships even more so, HAVE to plan for the possibility of taking damage, so I prefer a much higher DCR for something of this size. Which is one good reason to add more engineering spaces anyway. Or a damage control module. Once again, my personal preference. But considering the investment needed for this ship, I feel it's warranted. I just can't see a ship like this as expendable...

As I explained above you need to expect large ships to have a very high annual failure rate as they only roll once every five day cycle... if you instead have ten 7200t ships rather than one 72000t ship you will see that on average they fail roughly on equal terms... you just roll ten times with a smaller chance for the smaller ships. Smaller ships usually also have cheaper components so become cheaper to maintain because of that too too some degree.

Of course that's correct regarding AFR.

Maybe you quoted the wrong paragraph?
Regarding DCR, I was obviously talking of the repairs done after taking damage in a fight. 23 is really low, a good DCR might very well save a ships in a prolonged conflict. And for a ship of this size, you want to save it...

[Jorgen_CAB]

You can verify this relationship by observing the reported 1YR and 5YR MSP usage for any ship design.
Your battleships in this thread:
1YR 2 952    5YR 44 274
44,274 % 2,952 = 14.998.

1YR 1 262    5YR 18 929
18,929 % 1,262 = 14.999.

Keep in mind, these are only estimates.
They assume that your luck on the failure checks and on the DAC roll will be average.

These are the important numbers to watch out for... as the ship have a deployment rate of 12 month you will expect the ship to burn around 3000MSP during that time. That is roughly 9 month of regular maintenance if it does nothing at all. If you extend this and deploy the ship above 12 month the rate of failure will increase rapidly as the crew morale drops and the failure each cycle gets worse and worse as well.

You do have the main engineering though... so a good officer can significantly reduce the MSP consumption too.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Also one more thing, a front line beam warship of this size with only 23 DCR is... not optimal. All warships in general, and beam warships even more so, HAVE to plan for the possibility of taking damage, so I prefer a much higher DCR for something of this size. Which is one good reason to add more engineering spaces anyway. Or a damage control module. Once again, my personal preference. But considering the investment needed for this ship, I feel it's warranted. I just can't see a ship like this as expendable...

As I explained above you need to expect large ships to have a very high annual failure rate as they only roll once every five day cycle... if you instead have ten 7200t ships rather than one 72000t ship you will see that on average they fail roughly on equal terms... you just roll ten times with a smaller chance for the smaller ships. Smaller ships usually also have cheaper components so become cheaper to maintain because of that too too some degree.

Of course that's correct regarding AFR.

Maybe you quoted the wrong paragraph?
Regarding DCR, I was obviously talking of the repairs done after taking damage in a fight. 23 is really low, a good DCR might very well save a ships in a prolonged conflict. And for a ship of this size, you want to save it...

No... I just did not read it properly... you are right DC are important... I sort of immagined you talked about the AFR... 

I should have quoted the paragraph above... would have been more appropriate. 

[CharonJr (OP)]

Update for the new engines (Internal Fusion Drive).

In addition to the engine swap I traded some deployment time, 1 layer of armor and 1 shield for ECM/ECCM for even more speed (10k instead of 9k otherwise) and added some Damage Control (good idea, thx).

The added speed should largely compensate for the lost passive defenses. Engines are 50% of the size and 43% of the cost now.

Code: [Select]

Bismarck Mk2 class Battleship      72 000 tons       1 946 Crew       16 910.2 BP       TCS 1 440    TH 14 400    EM 20 610
10000 km/s      Armour 11-154       Shields 687-536       HTK 354      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 56      PPV 244
Maint Life 1.36 Years     MSP 7 416    AFR 1595%    IFR 22.2%    1YR 4 306    5YR 64 591    Max Repair 400.00 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 500 tons     
Kapitan zur See    Control Rating 5   BRG   AUX   ENG   CIC   FLG   
Intended Deployment Time: 9 months    Flight Crew Berths 40    Morale Check Required   

Daimler Internal Fusion Drive  EP800.00 (18)    Power 14400.0    Fuel Use 25.00%    Signature 800.00    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 3 018 000 Litres    Range 30.2 billion km (34 days at full power)
Thyssen Theta S229 / R536 Shields (3)     Recharge Time 536 seconds (1.3 per second)

Krupp 40cm Railgun V70/C6 (8x4)    Range 384 000km     TS: 10 000 km/s     Power 36-6     Accuracy Modifier 100%     RM 70 000 km    ROF 30        12 12 12 12 12 12 12 10 9 8
Rheinmetall 12cm Railgun V70/C6 (12x4)    Range 140 000km     TS: 10 000 km/s     Power 6-6     Accuracy Modifier 100%     RM 70 000 km    ROF 5        2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1
Rheinmetall 10cm Railgun V40/C3 (32x4)    Range 40 000km     TS: 10 000 km/s     Power 3-3     Accuracy Modifier 100%     RM 40 000 km    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Siemens Beam Fire Control R384-TS10000 (3)     Max Range: 384 000 km   TS: 10 000 km/s     97 95 92 90 87 84 82 79 77 74
Siemens Beam Fire Control R96-TS10000 (2)     Max Range: 96 000 km   TS: 10 000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
AEG Tokamak Fusion Reactor R6 (36)     Total Power Output 216    Exp 5%

Mannesmann Active Search Sensor AS15-R1 (1)     GPS 56     Range 15.8m km    MCR 1.4m km    Resolution 1

ECCM-2 (2)         ECM 20

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

[Jorgen_CAB]

Just hope you don't run into a Gallacite crunch anytime soon if you plan on building lots of these ships. At least maintenance is a fixed Gallacite cost now so that is good.

If you build your entire fleet around that speed you might also plan for expanding your Gallacite extraction going forward allot.

[consiefe]

IFR is huge for my taste. I'd definately add 20-30 more engineering to that. But after this put this baby to follow mode with 60-70k distance, it would decimate anything.

[sneer]

IFR on my ships is 5-8% max
also only 1 sensor for huge ship additional for redundancy is good idea
engines can be even twice bigger with bigger benefits

[CharonJr (OP)]

First battle, geez, those repair costs for failed weapons are huge (and it seems unmodified by ENG since the repair costs are the same for each different ship). The jump from 10cm to 12cm seems strange.

10cm Rail = 20.8
12cm Rail = 102.9
40cm Rail = 252 .0

And I mainly have Corundium shortages with a sprinkle of Neutronium and Corbomite in between

Since the Bismarck serves as a flagship it will never/rarely operate by itself, due to this there is ample sensor coverage from other ships, but if I manage to free up some space from refits I will add a backup sensor, because in brawling range there will be significant less sensor coverage Engine size is again limited by current tech levels.

And yes, the battle was very onesided, after the missiles have been dealt with the two Bismarcks and 2 Scharnhorst (40kt similar to the Bismarck but with 9x30cm Railguns instead of 8x40cm) moved in and wrecked havoc. In the end not even a scratch in their armor - finally a new source of minerals with the rest of Sol close to being mined out.

edit: It is a bit sad that they were this efficient, I would have loved to see those in action (carriers as backup to move them if needed, will transform them into carrier based during the next refit):

Code: [Select]

Seydlitz Mk2 class Frigate      3 999 tons       100 Crew       904.9 BP       TCS 80    TH 800    EM 0
10002 km/s      Armour 8-22       Shields 0-0       HTK 20      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 1      PPV 16
Maint Life 1.18 Years     MSP 421    AFR 128%    IFR 1.8%    1YR 309    5YR 4 630    Max Repair 400 MSP
Fregattankapitan    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Morale Check Required   

Daimler Internal Fusion Drive  EP800.00 (1)    Power 800    Fuel Use 25.00%    Signature 800    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 79 000 Litres    Range 14.2 billion km (16 days at full power)

Mauser 50 cm C6 Plasma Carronade (1)    Range 384 000km     TS: 10 002 km/s     Power 64-6     RM 10 000 km    ROF 55        64 32 21 16 12 10 9 8 7 6
Siemens Beam Fire Control R384-TS10000 (1)     Max Range: 384 000 km   TS: 10 000 km/s     97 95 92 90 87 84 82 79 77 74
AEG Tokamak Fusion Reactor R6 (1)     Total Power Output 6    Exp 5%

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

[Hungaricus]

Hi!

I have 3 BBs at the exact same size in my current game. You need much much much more MSP.

My design:

Code: [Select]

Monarch C class Battleship      72,000 tons       1,934 Crew       18,909.1 BP       TCS 1,440    TH 8,294    EM 10,320
5760 km/s      Armour 12-154       Shields 344-537       HTK 686      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 117      PPV 501.16
Maint Life 2.39 Years     MSP 17,356    AFR 728%    IFR 10.1%    1YR 4,174    5YR 62,603    Max Repair 1382.4 MSP
Magazine 1,160    Cryogenic Berths 200   
Kommodore    Control Rating 5   BRG   AUX   ENG   CIC   FLG   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Magneto-plasma Drive  EP2764.80 (3)    Power 8294.4    Fuel Use 16.63%    Signature 2764.8    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 2,005,000 Litres    Range 30.1 billion km (60 days at full power)
Epsilon S172 / R537 Shields (2)     Recharge Time 537 seconds (0.6 per second)

Triple 30cm C6 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (2x3)    Range 384,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 72-18     RM 60,000 km    ROF 20       
Particle Lance-18 (5)    Range 384,000km     TS: 8,000 km/s     Power 55-6     RM 400,000 km    ROF 50       
Quad 15.0cm  Laser Turret "Xiphos" (3x4)    Range 360,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 24-24     RM 60,000 km    ROF 5       
Quad Gauss(0.17) Cannon Turret "Telamon-B" (21x20)    Range 40,000km     TS: 25000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R384-TS10000 (30%) (2)     Max Range: 384,000 km   TS: 10,000 km/s     97 95 92 90 87 84 82 79 77 74
Beam Fire Control R144-TS25000 (30%) (3)     Max Range: 144,000 km   TS: 25,000 km/s     93 86 79 72 65 58 51 44 38 31
Stellarator Fusion Reactor R26-PB30 (6)     Total Power Output 157.2    Exp 15%

Size 8.00 Box Launcher (120)     Missile Size: 8    Hangar Reload 141 minutes    MF Reload 23 hours
Size 1 Missile Launcher (20)     Missile Size: 1    Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC20-R1 (30%) (5)     Range 20.3m km    Resolution 1
Missile Fire Control FC94-R100 (30%) (8)     Range 94.3m km    Resolution 100
ASM-8B " Granit" (120)    Speed: 39,000 km/s    End: 16.4m     Range: 38.3m km    WH: 16    Size: 8    TH: 234/140/70
AMM-1A "Sarissa" (200)    Speed: 57,600 km/s    End: 0.8m     Range: 2.8m km    WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 614/368/184

Active Search Sensor AS210-R100 (30%) (1)     GPS 36000     Range 210.8m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor AS55-R1 (30%) (1)     GPS 540     Range 55.6m km    MCR 5m km    Resolution 1

ECCM-4 (5)         ECM 40

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes[/spoiler]

I have a bit more than 17000 MSP and its not enough. There was a huge battle in the Tirpitz system. After more than a week of fighting my fleet achieved victory but it was completly out of MSP and half the weapons were inoperable. The D version will have 20.000 MSP or more I recommend you put at least 15k in that ship. Each ship destroyed around a million ton of enemy shipping and altogether 7k missiles.

I admit it's rare to have such huge battles but when you do have to fight one you really need the MSP.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Hi!

I have 3 BBs at the exact same size in my current game. You need much much much more MSP.

My design:

Code: [Select]

Monarch C class Battleship      72,000 tons       1,934 Crew       18,909.1 BP       TCS 1,440    TH 8,294    EM 10,320
5760 km/s      Armour 12-154       Shields 344-537       HTK 686      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 117      PPV 501.16
Maint Life 2.39 Years     MSP 17,356    AFR 728%    IFR 10.1%    1YR 4,174    5YR 62,603    Max Repair 1382.4 MSP
Magazine 1,160    Cryogenic Berths 200   
Kommodore    Control Rating 5   BRG   AUX   ENG   CIC   FLG   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Magneto-plasma Drive  EP2764.80 (3)    Power 8294.4    Fuel Use 16.63%    Signature 2764.8    Explosion 12%
Fuel Capacity 2,005,000 Litres    Range 30.1 billion km (60 days at full power)
Epsilon S172 / R537 Shields (2)     Recharge Time 537 seconds (0.6 per second)

Triple 30cm C6 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (2x3)    Range 384,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 72-18     RM 60,000 km    ROF 20       
Particle Lance-18 (5)    Range 384,000km     TS: 8,000 km/s     Power 55-6     RM 400,000 km    ROF 50       
Quad 15.0cm  Laser Turret "Xiphos" (3x4)    Range 360,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 24-24     RM 60,000 km    ROF 5       
Quad Gauss(0.17) Cannon Turret "Telamon-B" (21x20)    Range 40,000km     TS: 25000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R384-TS10000 (30%) (2)     Max Range: 384,000 km   TS: 10,000 km/s     97 95 92 90 87 84 82 79 77 74
Beam Fire Control R144-TS25000 (30%) (3)     Max Range: 144,000 km   TS: 25,000 km/s     93 86 79 72 65 58 51 44 38 31
Stellarator Fusion Reactor R26-PB30 (6)     Total Power Output 157.2    Exp 15%

Size 8.00 Box Launcher (120)     Missile Size: 8    Hangar Reload 141 minutes    MF Reload 23 hours
Size 1 Missile Launcher (20)     Missile Size: 1    Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC20-R1 (30%) (5)     Range 20.3m km    Resolution 1
Missile Fire Control FC94-R100 (30%) (8)     Range 94.3m km    Resolution 100
ASM-8B " Granit" (120)    Speed: 39,000 km/s    End: 16.4m     Range: 38.3m km    WH: 16    Size: 8    TH: 234/140/70
AMM-1A "Sarissa" (200)    Speed: 57,600 km/s    End: 0.8m     Range: 2.8m km    WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 614/368/184

Active Search Sensor AS210-R100 (30%) (1)     GPS 36000     Range 210.8m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor AS55-R1 (30%) (1)     GPS 540     Range 55.6m km    MCR 5m km    Resolution 1

ECCM-4 (5)         ECM 40

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes[/spoiler]

I have a bit more than 17000 MSP and its not enough. There was a huge battle in the Tirpitz system. After more than a week of fighting my fleet achieved victory but it was completly out of MSP and half the weapons were inoperable. The D version will have 20.000 MSP or more I recommend you put at least 15k in that ship. Each ship destroyed around a million ton of enemy shipping and altogether 7k missiles.

I admit it's rare to have such huge battles but when you do have to fight one you really need the MSP.

Was that from actual space battles?!?

I have never seen space battles that need that much MSP for conclusions... at least not if you keep engaging from huge distances and you do death by a thousand cuts or something, or was it from bombardment of planets?

There also is an issue with turrets making MSP cost higher if I'm not mistaken... but I never investigated that claim though.

[Zincat]

Hi!

I have 3 BBs at the exact same size in my current game. You need much much much more MSP.

Snipped

I have a bit more than 17000 MSP and its not enough. There was a huge battle in the Tirpitz system. After more than a week of fighting my fleet achieved victory but it was completly out of MSP and half the weapons were inoperable. The D version will have 20.000 MSP or more I recommend you put at least 15k in that ship. Each ship destroyed around a million ton of enemy shipping and altogether 7k missiles.

I admit it's rare to have such huge battles but when you do have to fight one you really need the MSP.

I would be interested in knowing more details about this. Also, I think it would be valuable for balance.
17k MPS consumed seems excessive to me. Might be worth to consider if the 1% failure chance is actually too much...
I don't know how many other people have been in a huge beam battle like you did.