Author Topic: Do you class by Weight or by Role?  (Read 1645 times)

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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Do you class by Weight or by Role?
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2020, 06:38:30 PM »
If you are can't produce military ships constantly then one of two things are wrong: 1. You have way too many shipyards and slipways 2. (and more likely) your economy isn't very good. I have no troubles making 100k tons of combat ships per anum after year 30.

It will be very difficult to expand the economy as fast as you can expand your military yards. I believe you are not constantly expanding your military yards 24/7 outside retooling?!?

I also play with about 10-15% tech progression (conventional start) and that will usually have a pretty strong implication on this... it is way easier to expand the military capability by expanding few shipyards to the point you can't build ships 24/7. Even if you could I see no reason to do it all the time either. From a strategic point of view it can be quite effective to have a strong production capability that you don't use as military ships will cost maintenance over time and that also cost you resources. If you are not at war you don't need a massive offensive fleet. A ship will generally eat up its own production cost in about 16 years... if you don't need a ship for 20+ years. As long as you have the components ships can quickly be built. You can also use regular industry to pre-build components but never build the ships if you are not at war... that is far more economic that building ships and not using them for 10 years. But if you need another 20 destroyers you can quickly build them as you have the components for them.

The less resources you spend on the military the more resources you can spend on expanding everything else instead. The problem is that you always need to trade something for something else. There is not one single straight answer that is the right one. How many ships are too many and how many are too little... how can you ever know?!?

As long as you can defend your territory you don't need a massive offensive fleet on stand by all the time that massive fleet is a huge drain... I mean I can go many decades without war quite often. Some wars are just stalemates or low intensity any way so don't need a huge fleet. Quite often going on the offensive can be way too expensive as you already are exploring and expanding in other places and all effort already goes 100% into that. So even if you did win after a huge expansion of fleets and ground troops you will not be able to take advantage of it as your expansion already is at 100% capacity elsewhere.

Also... the amount of ships you can build after a set time period are not really relevant as that depends on so many factors, starting population, industry and research and survey multiplier and more importantly the actual need for military ships within that time period. I have had games (almost always conventional starts) where it takes 50-60 years just to get out of sol, let alone meet a hostile alien... why would I need to build 100kt ships per year after 20 years, that would be a huge waste of resources and production at that time. I probably could do that it I wanted to, but I rarely want to.
I think it's a waste to have shipyards not making ships (and making components if you want rapid expansion). Otherwise they just sit in orbit not doing anything.

It is even more wasteful to produce ships you don't need as you will have to pay maintenance for them over time. If we are talking about commercial yards I might agree that you want them building stuff as much as possible. There is a balance you need to make between planetary industry and ship production. If you produce ships and you don't have anything for them to do you should stop producing ships for the moment and shift focus on to the industry and finding more mineral sites to mine.

If you drain your mineral resources too fast you need new priorities.

It is perfectly viable to have an over production capability in commercial/military yards and shift them around when you need. If population for some reason is a scarce resource you can always tug the yards to a place where there is no population when not in use and replace commercial with naval as you need them. If population is not of any direct concern then it certainly makes no difference if they are not operational all the time.
 

Offline Lord Solar

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Re: Do you class by Weight or by Role?
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2020, 06:39:40 PM »
If you are can't produce military ships constantly then one of two things are wrong: 1. You have way too many shipyards and slipways 2. (and more likely) your economy isn't very good. I have no troubles making 100k tons of combat ships per anum after year 30.

It will be very difficult to expand the economy as fast as you can expand your military yards. I believe you are not constantly expanding your military yards 24/7 outside retooling?!?

I also play with about 10-15% tech progression (conventional start) and that will usually have a pretty strong implication on this... it is way easier to expand the military capability by expanding few shipyards to the point you can't build ships 24/7. Even if you could I see no reason to do it all the time either. From a strategic point of view it can be quite effective to have a strong production capability that you don't use as military ships will cost maintenance over time and that also cost you resources. If you are not at war you don't need a massive offensive fleet. A ship will generally eat up its own production cost in about 16 years... if you don't need a ship for 20+ years. As long as you have the components ships can quickly be built. You can also use regular industry to pre-build components but never build the ships if you are not at war... that is far more economic that building ships and not using them for 10 years. But if you need another 20 destroyers you can quickly build them as you have the components for them.

The less resources you spend on the military the more resources you can spend on expanding everything else instead. The problem is that you always need to trade something for something else. There is not one single straight answer that is the right one. How many ships are too many and how many are too little... how can you ever know?!?

As long as you can defend your territory you don't need a massive offensive fleet on stand by all the time that massive fleet is a huge drain... I mean I can go many decades without war quite often. Some wars are just stalemates or low intensity any way so don't need a huge fleet. Quite often going on the offensive can be way too expensive as you already are exploring and expanding in other places and all effort already goes 100% into that. So even if you did win after a huge expansion of fleets and ground troops you will not be able to take advantage of it as your expansion already is at 100% capacity elsewhere.

Also... the amount of ships you can build after a set time period are not really relevant as that depends on so many factors, starting population, industry and research and survey multiplier and more importantly the actual need for military ships within that time period. I have had games (almost always conventional starts) where it takes 50-60 years just to get out of sol, let alone meet a hostile alien... why would I need to build 100kt ships per year after 20 years, that would be a huge waste of resources and production at that time. I probably could do that it I wanted to, but I rarely want to.
I think it's a waste to have shipyards not making ships (and making components if you want rapid expansion). Otherwise they just sit in orbit not doing anything.

It is even more wasteful to produce ships you don't need as you will have to pay maintenance for them over time. If we are talking about commercial yards I might agree that you want them building stuff as much as possible. There is a balance you need to make between planetary industry and ship production. If you produce ships and you don't have anything for them to do you should stop producing ships for the moment and shift focus on to the industry and finding more mineral sites to mine.

If you drain your mineral resources too fast you need new priorities.

It is perfectly viable to have an over production capability in commercial/military yards and shift them around when you need. If population for some reason is a scarce resource you can always tug the yards to a place where there is no population when not in use and replace commercial with naval as you need them. If population is not of any direct concern then it certainly makes no difference if they are not operational all the time.
I think that I am at war a lot more than you are usually.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Do you class by Weight or by Role?
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2020, 06:48:44 PM »
I think that I am at war a lot more than you are usually.

Even if I'm at war I night not be wanting to invade and just defend, especially if I have other more fruitful expansion to perform instead. Thereby still not fully using all military production capability for the war effort. I will continue to build survey and other ships rather than warships.

I might be facing a very strong and dangerous enemy and then I need to be more offensive it then is good that I do have more production capability if I need it.

There is nothing black and white about this... you can NEVER know before hand how many ships and resources you will need to spend due to war. But you can usually calculate how much resources you need to expand your industry and colonisation effort. There also is a thing with using too much force on a weak enemy, that is also wasting resources.
 

Offline Lord Solar

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Re: Do you class by Weight or by Role?
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2020, 06:55:03 PM »
Military expansion is the most rewarding expansion and building more ships furthers this goal.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Do you class by Weight or by Role?
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2020, 07:05:04 PM »
Military expansion is the most rewarding expansion and building more ships furthers this goal.

Not if every NPR you meet typically are 2-3 tech levels ahead of you it is not...   ;)

Try conventional starts with 10-15% tech progression and 5% survey speeds and you will know.

I think your ideas are a bit simplistic... in Aurora military expansion is not always that easy or even wanted. The amount of resources to invade a decently defended colony can be extremely costly, resources you can spend more wisely elsewhere instead.

It is all about juggling different priorities all the time, there is no black and white... mostly grey.

It also depend on what type of campaign you play.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 07:06:37 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline froggiest1982 (OP)

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Re: Do you class by Weight or by Role?
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2020, 08:40:47 PM »
Military expansion is the most rewarding expansion and building more ships furthers this goal.

Not if every NPR you meet typically are 2-3 tech levels ahead of you it is not...   ;)

Try conventional starts with 10-15% tech progression and 5% survey speeds and you will know.

I think your ideas are a bit simplistic... in Aurora military expansion is not always that easy or even wanted. The amount of resources to invade a decently defended colony can be extremely costly, resources you can spend more wisely elsewhere instead.

It is all about juggling different priorities all the time, there is no black and white... mostly grey.

It also depend on what type of campaign you play.

I think I can agree a lot with the above and with this:

It will be very difficult to expand the economy as fast as you can expand your military yards. I believe you are not constantly expanding your military yards 24/7 outside retooling?!?

I also play with about 10-15% tech progression (conventional start) and that will usually have a pretty strong implication on this... it is way easier to expand the military capability by expanding few shipyards to the point you can't build ships 24/7.

It is a very interesting conversation and I agree with many part of it. You need to have a military because it's just simple as that. Also you cannot have your military to eat up all your budget and resources. Only things I don't agree is this and I break them down:

From a strategic point of view it can be quite effective to have a strong production capability that you don't use as military ships will cost maintenance over time and that also cost you resources. If you are not at war you don't need a massive offensive fleet.

I personally think, also considering the new claim mechanics that your fleet should always have an offensive capability ready for action and also to scare visitors away. Also, please don't forget that even if you can build a ship in no time other thing is to train her crew at an acceptable level to make that fleet actually combat ready.


As long as you can defend your territory you don't need a massive offensive fleet on stand by all the time, that massive fleet is a huge drain... I mean I can go many decades without war quite often. Some wars are just stalemates or low intensity any way so don't need a huge fleet. Quite often going on the offensive can be way too expensive as you already are exploring and expanding in other places and all effort already goes 100% into that. So even if you did win after a huge expansion of fleets and ground troops you will not be able to take advantage of it as your expansion already is at 100% capacity elsewhere.

Half true half not. It may be entirely possible that you are having stalemates or low intensity wars because you are just not ready and probably you don't really want a war in first place. Beware I always prefer an ally than an enemy, but I prepare for both. Obviously going huge it's insane and on that I agree with you a lot. Side note: I always, I mean always build ground units. Number 1: they are cheap but still take time to train. Number 2: you lose an insane amount during invasions and you need even more to "pacify" regions. They always come in handy.

I agree with you on other point here below though. I personally don't start a big military program until I've found proof of alien existence whether it's ruins, wrecks or lives form. The best game I had was when the first proof I had was a non TN race. If I close my eyes I can still hear them screaming when our ships cast shadows on their world.

I have had games (almost always conventional starts) where it takes 50-60 years just to get out of sol, let alone meet a hostile alien... why would I need to build 100kt ships per year after 20 years, that would be a huge waste of resources and production at that time. I probably could do that it I wanted to, but I rarely want to.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 08:44:15 PM by froggiest1982 »
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Do you class by Weight or by Role?
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2020, 04:27:10 AM »
Military expansion is the most rewarding expansion and building more ships furthers this goal.

Not if every NPR you meet typically are 2-3 tech levels ahead of you it is not...   ;)

Try conventional starts with 10-15% tech progression and 5% survey speeds and you will know.

I think your ideas are a bit simplistic... in Aurora military expansion is not always that easy or even wanted. The amount of resources to invade a decently defended colony can be extremely costly, resources you can spend more wisely elsewhere instead.

It is all about juggling different priorities all the time, there is no black and white... mostly grey.

It also depend on what type of campaign you play.

I think I can agree a lot with the above and with this:

It will be very difficult to expand the economy as fast as you can expand your military yards. I believe you are not constantly expanding your military yards 24/7 outside retooling?!?

I also play with about 10-15% tech progression (conventional start) and that will usually have a pretty strong implication on this... it is way easier to expand the military capability by expanding few shipyards to the point you can't build ships 24/7.

It is a very interesting conversation and I agree with many part of it. You need to have a military because it's just simple as that. Also you cannot have your military to eat up all your budget and resources. Only things I don't agree is this and I break them down:

From a strategic point of view it can be quite effective to have a strong production capability that you don't use as military ships will cost maintenance over time and that also cost you resources. If you are not at war you don't need a massive offensive fleet.

I personally think, also considering the new claim mechanics that your fleet should always have an offensive capability ready for action and also to scare visitors away. Also, please don't forget that even if you can build a ship in no time other thing is to train her crew at an acceptable level to make that fleet actually combat ready.


As long as you can defend your territory you don't need a massive offensive fleet on stand by all the time, that massive fleet is a huge drain... I mean I can go many decades without war quite often. Some wars are just stalemates or low intensity any way so don't need a huge fleet. Quite often going on the offensive can be way too expensive as you already are exploring and expanding in other places and all effort already goes 100% into that. So even if you did win after a huge expansion of fleets and ground troops you will not be able to take advantage of it as your expansion already is at 100% capacity elsewhere.

Half true half not. It may be entirely possible that you are having stalemates or low intensity wars because you are just not ready and probably you don't really want a war in first place. Beware I always prefer an ally than an enemy, but I prepare for both. Obviously going huge it's insane and on that I agree with you a lot. Side note: I always, I mean always build ground units. Number 1: they are cheap but still take time to train. Number 2: you lose an insane amount during invasions and you need even more to "pacify" regions. They always come in handy.

I agree with you on other point here below though. I personally don't start a big military program until I've found proof of alien existence whether it's ruins, wrecks or lives form. The best game I had was when the first proof I had was a non TN race. If I close my eyes I can still hear them screaming when our ships cast shadows on their world.

I have had games (almost always conventional starts) where it takes 50-60 years just to get out of sol, let alone meet a hostile alien... why would I need to build 100kt ships per year after 20 years, that would be a huge waste of resources and production at that time. I probably could do that it I wanted to, but I rarely want to.

I think we agree in even the things you pointed out. I never meant you should not have ANY offensive ships standing around at any time, especially if you know there are hostile aliens out there that can potentially attack you.

What I meant was that you don't need a huge fleet (and ground forces) that eat up your resources for invading an enemy capital or their colonies standing around all the time when the resources to build them are massive let alone maintain it over time. Especially if your enemies are stronger than you are. It is a whole other matter to keep a manoeuvre force strong enough to attack and raid enemy space in preemptive attacks or to bolster certain part of your space if any hostilities break out.

You have to judge what is a good balance between maintaining fleets and ground forces and how much of your yearly wealth budget goes into ground forces, ship construction or colonial industry and mining efforts and technology advancement. You also need to balance mined resources versus consumed resources in addition to this.

I try to strike a good balance and the more I put into construction of new colonial efforts the faster the economy will grow and the more general military power I can maintain in the end which include both general defences and manoeuvre elements.

It is not entirely uncommon for me to scrap some ships after a bigger confrontation as I simply have more ships than I need for general defence. I might start with older ships but sometimes even newer ones can get scraped too, it depend on the ship type. If you have the components left you can quickly build new ships if you need them for not a huge difference in cost. You have to judge the situation you are in if this is something you want to do or not.

You definitely have to consider the training level of the crew as well. I mostly use level 5 training quality of my military crew so they will start out with a fair amount of crew training to begin with, but still you have to consider this as a whole as part of the decision making.

Ground forces are quite expensive to build as well, especially if you want to constantly "upgrade" them as you develop new technology. So here I do the same as with ships. Build up good defences and some good manoeuvre forces for rapid deployment when needed. I don't sit with huge invasion forces all the time... I think I can use my wealth for better things in the mean time.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 04:41:36 AM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline kenlon

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Re: Do you class by Weight or by Role?
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2020, 11:41:35 AM »
Personally, I go purely by role, and avoid trying to wedge wet-navy classes into a setting where they no longer make sense. So my main fleet combat ships are LN (Line), for example, my battlecarriers are LCV (Line Carrier), etc. I do call my long range patrol ships Cruisers, but that's because they still fit the traditional cruiser role of long range semi-independent operations. It makes for a much easier classification system than trying to wedge it all into corvette/frigate/destroyer/cruiser/battleship by displacement as many seem to do, since that doesn't really fit with how ships are actually used.
 

Offline Zincat

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Re: Do you class by Weight or by Role?
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2020, 12:06:13 PM »
What Kenlon said. Role only for me, especially for two reasons

1) Ships sizes tend to go up longer into the game. I'd rather not have the confusion that different generations of ships would create. My early-ish game 25000 tons "main line" energy ship could have the size of an escort later on. With role classification this is not a problem

2) Who said that certain roles HAVE to be small or large? In the latest game I built an emergency 50000 ton PD gauss escort - tanker ship, almost entirely pre-built by construction factories. What do you propose I call it, escort-very-large-battleship? Size doesn't really matter, it's the role that does. I can also sometimes have very small carriers. Smaller than most "escorts".

Role classification avoid the entirety of these problems.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 12:11:19 PM by Zincat »
 

Offline Jeltz

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Re: Do you class by Weight or by Role?
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2020, 04:50:03 PM »
By role, no dubt.

Role Rulez!  ;D

J.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Do you class by Weight or by Role?
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2020, 06:10:11 PM »
In terms of size then I tend to think that if I always deploy 3 escorts at 10kt with any mission I might as well have a 30kt ship instead as that is way more efficient in terms of power, durability and command. The only reason to produce a smaller variant is that I want it to be stealthy and I need to distribute them in more places or have them operate on their own in either patrol or scouting capacity.

That is also why I designate my ship by role first and size second. For me it just are quite common that escorts tend to be smaller than primary mission ships because I often want them to be able to act independently or in smaller groups and spread them out to find an enemy or reconnaissance in force type of strategy. A large powerful escort can generally take care of them selves and at least in my fleet tend to be faster than most mission ships for that very reason. My escort usually need to be faster than the opponents standard main capital ships for that reason.
 

Offline kenlon

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Re: Do you class by Weight or by Role?
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2020, 06:16:39 PM »
Interesting - the ships that I class as closest to 'escort' (ADV - Area Defense Vessels) tend to be some of my larger ones, as they are built to cover non-military vessels most of the time, and thus use the same civilian engines that my freighters do so they can jump with them. And since they're slower, they get more range/deeper magazines/more EW gear/etc, so they end up half-again the size of my Lines of the same generation. I tend to build those around the idea of them stacking well at any fleet size, so they are faster (if shorter ranged), can provide their own PD/AMM coverage, though the Command ships that are my jump tenders/AWACS vessels tend to be much bigger, but only have the same offensive punch as a Line.

(And then there are my multi-hundred kiloton Behemoths, who pretty much exist to make Star Destroyers green with envy.)
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Do you class by Weight or by Role?
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2020, 06:51:24 AM »
Interesting - the ships that I class as closest to 'escort' (ADV - Area Defense Vessels) tend to be some of my larger ones, as they are built to cover non-military vessels most of the time, and thus use the same civilian engines that my freighters do so they can jump with them. And since they're slower, they get more range/deeper magazines/more EW gear/etc, so they end up half-again the size of my Lines of the same generation. I tend to build those around the idea of them stacking well at any fleet size, so they are faster (if shorter ranged), can provide their own PD/AMM coverage, though the Command ships that are my jump tenders/AWACS vessels tend to be much bigger, but only have the same offensive punch as a Line.

(And then there are my multi-hundred kiloton Behemoths, who pretty much exist to make Star Destroyers green with envy.)

In most of my campaigns escorts for commercial support ships tend to be older (and smaller) destroyer classes re designated to frigates... then I also already have older jump tenders to support them as well. I mainly upgrade the ship weapons/sensors and not the engines to keep it simple and cheap.
 

 

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